[06:14] <nigelb> AlanBell: well, on the next upstream release, debian will have the fix
[06:14] <nigelb> and we can sync it
[06:14] <nigelb> the quickest way to ease it is to offer an nmu to the debian folks or ask if they can do it themselves
[13:11] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: good morning
[13:11] <charlie-tca> What are the log files we need with dasher bugs to allow us to work them the easiest?
[13:16] <AlanBell> morning
[13:16] <AlanBell> the ones with line numbers!
[13:17] <UndiFineD> heh AlanBell 
[13:17] <AlanBell> if you can crash it whilst running under gdb you can see the code it stops on
[13:17]  * AlanBell isn't really a gdb expert
[13:17] <AlanBell> but I did get it to crash nicely once with gdb
[13:18] <charlie-tca> heh
[13:18] <charlie-tca> Okay. I will dig into it deeper then and see what I can do.
[13:27] <AlanBell> nigelb: so how do we offer an nmu to debian (what is an nmu?) so that it is in debian in time to be pulled into Natty?
[13:32] <UndiFineD> nmu = Non-maintainer upload
[13:35] <UndiFineD> http://wiki.debian.org/NonMaintainerUpload?action=show&redirect=NMU
[13:53] <AlanBell> interesting stuff, debian is complicated!
[13:54] <UndiFineD> they are
[13:56] <AlanBell> as this is an issue in compiz I guess it all depends when the next compiz release happens before it gets into debian testing
[13:56] <AlanBell> and whether that is before or after the pull to Natty
[13:57] <UndiFineD> AlanBell, is there a braille font ?
[13:59] <AlanBell> http://packages.debian.org/testing/x11/compiz
[14:00] <AlanBell> there is in TeX
[14:01] <UndiFineD> ok, that is a bit poor
[14:02] <UndiFineD> if we had such a font, it could overide the default in browser for example
[14:02] <AlanBell> and there is this project which needs some help getting on Linux http://sourceforge.net/projects/odt2braille/
[14:02] <AlanBell> UndiFineD: well it isn't much good as a font without an embosser of some sort
[14:03] <UndiFineD> I don have the hardware, but it seems logical
[14:04] <AlanBell> http://www.searchfreefonts.com/free/braille.htm
[14:05] <AlanBell> I am not sure that a braille font would have much practical value in Ubuntu
[14:06] <AlanBell> however it would be a great educational resource as one of the commenters on that page points out, she was teaching kindergarten kids about braille
[14:06] <UndiFineD> me neither, but if this one truly is free, we could have it packaged for ubuntu
[14:06] <AlanBell> all rights reserved
[14:08] <AlanBell> ooh, there is a braille unicode block
[14:08] <AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braille_Unicode_block
[14:10]  * AlanBell files an enhancement request for the Ubuntu font
[14:10] <UndiFineD> oh that will be great
[14:12] <AlanBell> bug 669102
[14:12] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 669102 in ubuntu-font-family "Expansion: include Braille U+2800 to U+28FF (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669102
[14:14] <AlanBell> wow, bug 650729
[14:14] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 650729 in ubuntu-font-family-sources (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Expansion: Ubuntu Font should support pIqaD (Klingon) (affects: 1) (heat: 124)" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/650729
[14:15] <UndiFineD> subscribed
[15:17] <AlanBell> UndiFineD: I think it is probably best to package a Braille font
[15:18] <AlanBell> that code block is just the combinations of all the dots available, it tells you nothing about how to type stuff with it
[15:18] <UndiFineD> true, I was looking for structure too
[15:19] <AlanBell> and the use case of a teacher educating a class about Braille, or someone manually embossing a sign based on a printed template just needs a font
[15:34] <AlanBell> !info console-braille
[15:34] <ubot2> AlanBell: console-braille (source: console-braille): Fonts and keymaps for reading/typing unicode braille. In component universe, is extra. Version 1.2ubuntu1 (maverick), package size 27 kB, installed size 356 kB
[15:34] <AlanBell> !info dots
[15:34] <ubot2> AlanBell: dots (source: dots): A braille typesetting program for GNOME. In component universe, is extra. Version 0.0.20100108-2 (maverick), package size 12 kB, installed size 184 kB
[15:35]  * AlanBell tests
[15:38] <AlanBell> well dots is of interest to people typesetting books in braille, it gives LaTeX output by the look of it, which would feed into that TeX font with braille
[15:44] <UndiFineD> http://www.fontspace.com/philippe-blondel/braille <- freeware
[15:46] <UndiFineD> philing@philing.net
[15:48] <AlanBell> http://www.rnib.org.uk/livingwithsightloss/readingwriting/braille/braille/codes/Pages/contracted_braille.aspx
[15:49] <AlanBell> freeware does not neccessarily mean Debian standard Free Software
[15:50] <UndiFineD> he has declared it royalty free
[15:50] <AlanBell> yeah, just reading the license
[15:50] <AlanBell> no modifications allowed
[15:51] <AlanBell> not sure if that is a barrier or not
[15:52] <AlanBell> Il faudra cependant, ni la modifier, ni changer son nom
[15:56] <UndiFineD> with contracted it becomes much harder
[15:57] <AlanBell> yes, but I think that is already quite well supported
[15:57] <AlanBell> that is what dots does for you I think
[15:57] <UndiFineD> I guess we would need word by word replacements
[15:58] <AlanBell> what I want to do is deal with the non-skilled use of braille grade 1
[15:58] <AlanBell> so a teacher would be able to use it in a lesson printing out the name of each child and getting them to make the bumps
[15:59] <AlanBell> or someone could print a sign for a door and with a bit of metal, a nail and hammer mark it "Gents" or "Ladies" for example
[16:00] <AlanBell> the "typesetting a book for the blind" use case is already well served with the TeX stuff
[16:02] <UndiFineD> but it would be much eassier if a font would make the internet available to them
[16:02] <AlanBell> that is what this is for -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_Braille_display
[16:14] <UndiFineD> http://www.synapseadaptive.com/
[16:59] <AlanBell> I wonder if some kind of Ubuntu dotty day would be a good idea http://www.rnib.org.uk/getinvolved/fundraising/localfundraising/dottydays/Pages/dotty_day_work.aspx
[19:24] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: help. How do I get the screen-reader to move from the panels to the installer window? I am trying to install 10.04.
[19:25] <AlanBell> hi charlie-tca 
[19:25] <charlie-tca> Hello
[19:25] <charlie-tca> what a deal!
[19:26] <AlanBell> how did it get to the panels?
[19:26] <charlie-tca> I used Ctrl+Alt+Tab
[19:27] <charlie-tca> got to the top panel, picked install from the system menu. Now the screen-reader stays in the panel, even though I can get focus in the install window
[19:27] <charlie-tca> using the mouse
[19:27] <AlanBell> hmm, odd
[19:27] <charlie-tca> With out the mouse, I seem to be stuck in the panel
[19:27] <charlie-tca> heh
[19:28] <AlanBell> I am using unity on 10.10 right now, not really sure on the panel navigation
[19:28] <charlie-tca> well, we know we can't make the installer work in 10.10, but I thought 10.04 worked with orca
[19:35] <AlanBell> it did!
[19:35] <charlie-tca> weird
[19:35] <charlie-tca> No keyboard combination is getting me from the panel after selecting install back to the desktop
[19:37] <AlanBell> what is that new desktop recording application?
[19:37] <charlie-tca> can't remember
[19:37] <charlie-tca> not "recordmydesktop" ?
[19:37] <AlanBell> no, something new that does audio as well
[19:38] <AlanBell> I was going to do a video of a virtual machine doing the audio install for 10.04 and 10.10
[19:39] <AlanBell> Kazam
[19:40] <charlie-tca> I am doing the hardware install of 10.04. I will then email the steps to the release manager to attempt to do one.
[20:07] <charlie-tca> hmm, my sound card comes up muted on the live cd environment and on the installation
[20:17] <charlie-tca> by the way, AlanBell, I will be testing natty weekly for accessible install ability. 
[20:23] <AlanBell> great
[20:40] <AlanBell> my braille font is coming along nicely
[20:40] <AlanBell> I have been meaning to learn Fontforge better for ages and Braille is so nice and easy to draw
[20:41] <AlanBell> just six hollow circles and fill them in according to the wikipedia page
[20:42] <charlie-tca> Glad to hear it. You do good things. 
[20:44] <TheMuso> AlanBell: Oh sweet!
[20:46] <AlanBell> I will do an article about it and what it is for
[20:46] <AlanBell> it isn't for use by blind people directly as such
[20:47] <AlanBell> but for teaching about braille, or as a template for manually embossing stuff
[20:50] <TheMuso> Understood.
[20:51] <TheMuso> It would be useful is there is ever a realtime braille/embossing app written for Linux, similar to how Duxbury presents information on the screen.
[20:51] <AlanBell> there is something called dots which seems to do TeX output, I guess not realtime
[20:52] <AlanBell> I think there are things to do the grade 2 contractions correctly
[20:52] <TheMuso> Right.
[20:54] <AlanBell> I think a font could contain some more common contractions as ligatures
[20:55] <AlanBell> however that would be a bit confusing for the "teaching primary school kids" use case
[20:55] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[21:58] <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/brailletest.pdf
[21:58]  * AlanBell is quite pleased with that
[22:01] <AlanBell> it includes all the letters and numbers ^ is the Capital letter follows symbol
[22:01] <AlanBell> # is number follows
[22:01] <AlanBell> and it includes Apostrophe, full stop, comma, semicolon, exclamation point, quotiation marks (opening and closing) brackets and hypens
[22:01] <duanedesign> pretty cool alan
[22:02] <AlanBell> oh and & is the contraction for "and"