[00:02] <IdleOne> Would be nice if ubottu could /msg me about users who I have set a @mark on
[00:02] <IdleOne> when they join the channel that is
[01:00] <Seeker`> who is Ayrton Araújo and how do you "participate passively" in something?
[01:06] <IdleOne> not sure who that is but I suspect they would like to attend to observe
[01:08] <IdleOne> Seeker`: and unless by some magical occurrence I have something to do. I will be there.
[01:11] <IdleOne> ahh it's easter_egg
[01:24] <Seeker`> no idea who that is
[01:25] <IdleOne> he is part of the ubuntu-br team
[01:26] <IdleOne> and ubuntu member
[03:32] <maco> what the heck is going on in #ubuntu
[03:32] <maco> there are 3 users going on about how su is better than sudo and talking about sudo passwd and stuff
[03:32] <maco> and swearing
[04:44] <bazhang>  mooly (~mooly@jewsare.evilfuckerz.org    that should be a ban based on the host alone, yes?
[04:45] <maco> ew yes
[04:45] <maco> sorry i didnt see that
[04:46] <bazhang> metaphaze seems to be trolling as well
[04:47] <maco> which is what i was saying an hour and 15 minutes ago...
[04:48] <bazhang> he should be PM'd and if no response then quieted and/or removed
[04:48] <maco> im headint to bed
[04:48] <bazhang> I'm about to have lunch
[04:53] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, you were asked repeatedly to stay on topic
[04:53] <MetaPhaze> muted on #ubuntu even though I helped everyone who came in. May not have been nice since everyone is an experty yet can't help me....still know how to make dep, make clean, make a new kernel
[04:53] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, whats the topic, sports? pop cultute?
[04:53] <MetaPhaze> mute me i dont care
[04:53] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, you were constantly being off topic
[04:53] <MetaPhaze> whats the topic
[04:54] <bazhang> ubuntu support only
[04:54] <bazhang> recommending debian, and ranting about how bad Ubuntu is are not part of that
[04:54] <MetaPhaze> well i sure as shit supported linux
[04:54] <MetaPhaze> maybe not ubuntu which wont freaking work
[04:54] <MetaPhaze> i didnt say ubuntu sucks
[04:54] <MetaPhaze> just saying it wont work for me
[04:55] <bazhang> ##linux would be a more suitable place for you then
[04:55] <MetaPhaze> yeah sounds goood
[04:55] <MetaPhaze> but i dont wanna fuss with ./nickserv reg
[04:55] <MetaPhaze> shoot bazhang i helped so many users lol
[04:55] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, I saw none of that. just telling them to use debian instead.
[04:55] <MetaPhaze> look before that
[04:56] <MetaPhaze> lol im not a shit starter some asked me for help, i provided help
[04:56] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, there is not a karma system even if you did help a single person
[04:56] <MetaPhaze> i dont mind being banned, just have good cause
[04:56] <MetaPhaze> ok fine, keep me banne
[04:56] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, you were constantly off topic and asked repeatedly to stop.
[04:56] <MetaPhaze> you want my hostname so you can perma ban me?
[04:57] <MetaPhaze> ok fine, you want my hostname so you can perma ban me?
[04:57] <MetaPhaze> #ubuntu is a joke, a bunch of wannabes answering questions
[04:57] <MetaPhaze> at least I answered LINUX questions that don't pertain to distro
[04:57] <bazhang> then no need for you to come back
[04:57] <MetaPhaze> right on bro
[04:57] <MetaPhaze> ban me, then help me with my ubuntu issues
[04:58] <MetaPhaze> lol i seriously don't care
[04:58] <bazhang> it's not a linux channel, but Ubuntu only. thus the suggestion for ##linux for you
[04:58] <MetaPhaze> my issues are ubuntu
[04:58] <MetaPhaze> not linux in general ;)
[04:59] <bazhang> you've clearly not understood the line between support and random chit chat
[04:59] <MetaPhaze> #ubuntu seems pretty random
[04:59] <MetaPhaze> why is "How do I use grep" pertain to ubuntu
[04:59] <MetaPhaze> that is pretty generic to linux?
[05:00] <MetaPhaze> and shouldnt even be hassled with in a support chan
[05:00] <MetaPhaze> buy a book
[05:00] <bazhang> clearly you have not read the code of conduct nor channel guidelines that I sent you via PM
[05:01] <MetaPhaze> I dont have one PM from you on IRC
[05:01] <MetaPhaze> you want a screen shot?
[05:01] <MetaPhaze> exactly
[05:01] <bazhang> odd. I have a PM window with you open right now.
[05:01] <MetaPhaze> i didnt get it, look ive been trying to help users
[05:02] <MetaPhaze> because i need help, no one can help me
[05:02] <bazhang> at any rate, judging by your general attitude, I see no reason to allow you to continue the random chat
[05:02] <MetaPhaze> what do you want me to do
[05:02] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, you already banned me, w/e dude
[05:02] <MetaPhaze> it doesnt make me sad
[05:02] <bazhang> merely muted
[05:02] <MetaPhaze> :\
[05:03] <MetaPhaze> lol i dont care
[05:03] <MetaPhaze> ive been muted from a chan where no one can help ME
[05:03] <MetaPhaze> can someone help me here?
[05:03] <bazhang> okay then, nothing to discuss here.
[05:03] <MetaPhaze> o0h no we have plenty to discuss
[05:03] <MetaPhaze> I need help :D
[05:03] <bazhang> this is not a support channel, so no.
[05:03] <MetaPhaze> PING! PONG! i got your msg
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> looks like your full of bologna
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> i was muted before given a chance
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> "<bazhang> hi
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> <bazhang> you are currently muted.
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> <bazhang> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> <bazhang> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> <bazhang> read those should you wish that to change"
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> ohhhhhhhhhhhh shit
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> no chance
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> w/e dude
[05:04] <MetaPhaze> you dont scare me, anyone here understand creating driver_ID for Marvell SATA drives?
[05:04] <bazhang> you were asked multiple times by multiple users to stay on topic, yet continued nonetheless
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> none ... the ... less
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> I resolved a lot of users issues
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> Linux = Linux
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> dont care about distro
[05:05] <bazhang> none that I saw.
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> one user asked me about using debian
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> lol its in the logs
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> want more?
[05:05] <bazhang> no need.
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> look dude seriously i dont care
[05:05] <MetaPhaze> im not 10 years old
[05:05] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, please part the channel then.
[05:06] <MetaPhaze> ok enough is enouggh you got me out of the CHAN help me with my issues?
[05:06] <MetaPhaze> You want me to part? Nah, i want bazhang who is an expert to help me resolve my issues
[05:07] <MetaPhaze> I'm wrong in my suggestions/comments
[05:07] <MetaPhaze> I need an expert like you bazhang to help me resolve my issues
[05:08] <MetaPhaze> where you at bazhang you got any ideas?
[05:08] <MetaPhaze> loves to help
[05:09] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, this channel is for moving issues forward in respect to mutes/bans and such issues, again not a support channel
[05:10] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, you see nothing wrong with your behavior in #ubuntu and will not alter it nor read the code of conduct nor guidelines pertaining to the channel.
[05:10] <MetaPhaze> well bazhang being such a great OP knowing how to resolve issues, can you PLEASE tell me where I can present my issues to Ubuntu 10.10 with Marvell adapters, with user owned driver_id resources  Because I am sure that is important to the dev team. Way more important then frick and frack in an IRC chan...
[05:11] <MetaPhaze> I see my behavior now as WRONG in the IRC chan...When you brought it up in to the OPS chan, before that, I can only see myself as helpful
[05:11] <MetaPhaze> resolved, shit, i dont know at least a 100 ~usr
[05:12] <MetaPhaze> look dude, if you want the power trip keep it, ban me I dont care...just point me in the DIR where someone can help me
[05:12] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, you were asked repeatedly to stop swearing, remain on topic and you continually ignored those entreaties.
[05:13] <MetaPhaze> c'mon now bazhang I said I was sorry, and corrected my language. I understand #ubuntu is a family friendly
[05:14] <MetaPhaze> dude keep your power trip i dont care
[05:14] <MetaPhaze> just point me in the DIR of someone who knows what they are doing, instead of a 14 yearold kid with some +OP
[05:14] <MetaPhaze> LOL i dont care dude
[05:14] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, I suggest you read the documents linked above and come back in 24 hours to discuss.
[05:14] <MetaPhaze> blah blah blah
[05:14] <MetaPhaze> ban me from #ubuntu
[05:15] <MetaPhaze> I dont think you can, I think you can only mute me
[05:15] <MetaPhaze> I wrote my own device drivers
[05:15] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, there is nothing further to discuss at this time, as you seem unwilling to take the necessary steps to move this forward.
[05:15] <MetaPhaze> you can get me in touch with someone who knows WTF is going on besides being an IRC Chat OP LOL
[05:16] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, please part the channel and return when or if you are willing to move this forward.
[05:16] <MetaPhaze> Love to move it forward, since you sugggest, who is your SUPERVISOR
[05:16] <MetaPhaze> ?
[05:17] <MetaPhaze> im willing to play by the rules
[05:17] <MetaPhaze> :)
[05:17] <MetaPhaze> Love helping folks
[05:17] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, then read the linked documents and return in 24 hours time to discuss.
[05:17] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, you must have a supervisor since you can't ban me from #ubuntu, let me discuss this with him/her?
[05:18] <bazhang> !appeals | MetaPhaze
[05:18] <MetaPhaze> Since I have NOT done any ill to the Ubuntu distro, just making suggestions to resolve issues
[05:19] <MetaPhaze> Ok bazhang has issues a !appeals for | Metahaze
[05:19] <MetaPhaze> love to appeal it now
[05:19] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, then check the link and contact the email listed therein
[05:20] <MetaPhaze> look bazhang im not creating a problem for anyone
[05:20] <MetaPhaze> I was helping with universal Linux help
[05:20] <MetaPhaze> getting banned for explaining how to do something under *ANY* distro is a joke
[05:20] <MetaPhaze> if you dont want me in ubuntu fine...
[05:20] <MetaPhaze> just say so
[05:21] <MetaPhaze> Im not a jackoff, I dont mind helping
[05:21] <MetaPhaze> My experience comes from CLI way before Ubuntu was even thought of
[05:22] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, you feel unhappy with an operators decision and wish to appeal. the first step, which was discussing here, is through. I suggest you follow the next step in your appeal process.
[05:23] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, not that important to me, good luck to you, appreciate all you do to help other users
[05:24] <MetaPhaze> OPS in this chan, Im sure everyone in the #ubuntu , #ubntu-offtopic appreciate it
[05:25] <MetaPhaze> sorrying for being so crass
[05:26] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, I just hope I can idle in your #ubuntu chan so I can PM users to help them
[05:29] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, can you please tell me how I can move to the next step to appeal a mute?
[05:29] <MetaPhaze> Apparently all the Private MSG's I am getting from #ubuntu for help isn't enough...
[05:33] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, can you please tell me how to to esclate this to the next step?
[05:34] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, I have. PM'ing users in #ubuntu randomly is not acceptable. I had hoped we could resolve a simple mute here, but you wish not to read any of the appropriate documentation nor alter your behavior in #ubuntu .
[05:35] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, I don't PM anyone randomly
[05:36] <MetaPhaze> Just show me a link where I can read how to object to your mute
[05:36] <MetaPhaze> lol
[05:36] <MetaPhaze> ChanServ gives channel operator status to bazhang
[05:36] <MetaPhaze> * You have left channel #ubuntu (requested by bazhang (Goodbye))
[05:36] <MetaPhaze> i dont need to help anyone else
[05:37] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, should you wish to move this forward, you can access the appeals link; that will take considerably more time than simply reading the appropriate documents and coming back here in 48 hours to discuss again
[05:37] <MetaPhaze> bazhang, sounds good, can you PLEASE link me to the appropriate documents?
[05:38] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, yes, as you have said you wish to PM people randomly in #ubuntu to offer suggestions I felt it was appropriate to switch your mute to a straight ban.
[05:38] <MetaPhaze> I understand how you feel, can you please link me to appropriate artbiration documents?
[05:38] <bazhang> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess  MetaPhaze
[05:39] <MetaPhaze> Thank you bazhang have a wonderful evning, and a spooky Halloween
[05:48] <bazhang> MetaPhaze, please don't idle in this channel, as per the topic.
[05:57] <bazhang> MetaPhaze03, ?
[06:00] <MetaPhaze03> I enjoyed your company too bazhang
[06:01] <bazhang> MetaPhaze03, please dont idle here.
[06:05] <MetaPhaze03> idles
[06:05] <bazhang> ?
[06:05] <MetaPhaze03> bazhang, I thought we were friends trying to accomplish the same goal
[06:06] <MetaPhaze03> got ubuntu on my netbook, I thought we were going to get it installed on my desktop
[06:08] <bazhang> MetaPhaze03, this is not a support channel. please read the /topic.
[06:09] <MetaPhaze03> oh sorry, just thought since you were an OP you wanted to help...
[06:10] <MetaPhaze03> didn't realize OPs here were just for bragging rights ;)
[06:17] <bazhang> he's PMing random users saying he was banned simply for mentioning debian
[07:14] <alabd> Good day all , would someone get my user out of ban ?
[07:14] <alabd> in #ubuntu
[07:15] <alabd> it's about some month and now i-humble want to upgrade kernel and need support
[07:46] <alabd> ?
[07:49] <Tm_T> alabd: hi, as here seems to be noone who has possibility to deal this matter, I would kindly ask you to return in few hours in hope we have more active ops
[07:49] <Tm_T> hi keesm0, how can we help you?
[07:50] <alabd> Tm_T thanks , for noe where can i-humble ask question about how to upgrade 9.04 kernel?
[07:51] <Tm_T> forums?
[07:51] <alabd> irc
[07:51] <alabd> mean
[07:51] <Tm_T> sorry, no idea
[08:04] <jpds> Hmm.
[08:49] <ikonia> mega panarchy is now cloaked again
[08:52] <ikonia> morning by the way
[08:58] <ikonia> hello keesm0
[08:59] <keesm0> hi
[08:59] <ikonia> how can we help you today keesm0 ?
[09:00] <jpds> keesm0: Bonjour.
[09:11] <ikonia> keesm0: hello ?
[09:14] <jpds> ikonia: See -irc too.
[09:15] <ikonia> ahh
[09:15] <ikonia> thank you jpds
[09:51] <ikonia> keesm0: if you don't need anything else from the team in this channel, could you please leave as per the /topic as we have a no idle policy
[09:52]  * keesm0 ok ikonia no problem byebye
[09:54] <jpds>  
[10:03] <ikonia> ?
[10:40] <ikonia> !find ironahk
[10:40] <ikonia> how annoying
[11:34] <jpds> Fail.
[11:36] <seeker> Hai
[12:04] <topyli> @btlogin
[14:33] <popey> FYI: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2010-October/015409.html
[14:33] <popey> SpaceGhost = that guy. He's now banned from ubuntu-users and sounder lists
[14:34] <Pici> popey: Thanks for the update.  I figured that would happen after some of his comments on sounder.  I let Lyz know about it a few days ago.
[14:34] <popey> I completely missed that thread
[14:34] <IdleOne> What is going on with him :/
[14:34] <popey> I only got alerted when he cc'ed Claire Newman
[14:35] <Pici> I didn't link to a specific thread, or really provide details.  I probably should have.
[15:34] <IdleOne> going to leave Madmatrix on +q they are responding with gibberish in PM
[15:34] <Pici> fun.
[16:32] <elky> hmm, i thought he was older than 14...
[16:34] <ikonia> who ?
[16:36] <elky> spaceghost, as per above
[16:37] <popey> I dunno how old he is, he seems to swing wildly from coherent, sane and helpful to madly abusive and childish. I wouldn't even try to peg an age on him
[16:38] <elky> he claimed to have kids
[16:38] <elky> so, who knows
[16:38] <ikonia> he's not 14
[16:40] <elky> taylanub, can we help?
[20:20] <oly562> why am i banned  from #ubuntu
[20:21] <oly562> ...
[20:22] <oly562> i just tried to log in, and pop up says im banned....
[20:22] <oly562> is this what to expect from the Ubuntu community for which I am a member....
[20:22] <oly562> are all people i send to Ubuntu going to get this type of treatment....
[20:22] <oly562> well.....
[20:23] <oly562> why am I banned from #ubuntu room... again... i havent been in there for over 2 days.... who keeps banning me?? you sorry ass
[20:23] <oly562> well......
[20:24] <oly562> why isn't anyone responding??
[20:25] <pleia2> oly562: please be patient and wait for an #ubuntu op, we're all volunteers here :)
[20:26] <oly562> why was i banned.... i shouldnt be in this room at all
[20:26] <oly562> i need my questions answered or some help with things,,,, ikonia you punk, IdleOne you punk, who put me on ban...
[20:26] <oly562> they are here, they are just hiding
[20:26] <oly562> tell you what,,, next time i see one of you at a ubuntu meeting, i'm going to talk to you in person, hows that
[20:27] <mneptok> calling people names is not going to help.
[20:27] <mneptok> @login
[20:27] <oly562> i have not idea what that mans,,,
[20:27] <oly562> ignoring me jerk isnt helping either
[20:27] <oly562> i want to know who banned me and why
[20:27] <oly562> period
[20:27] <mneptok> that's what i'm trying to find out.
[20:27] <oly562> this is getting rediculious
[20:28] <oly562> i have not beef with you mneptok but do not state the obvious to me, i know what im saying and doing
[20:29] <mneptok> it seems you have been banned multiple times, and have even been referred to the IRC appeals process.
[20:29] <oly562> im a volunteer everytime i answer a noobs question, but i dont say it to them, i just help
[20:30] <oly562> do you know how long ago that was? you make it sound like it happend yesterday
[20:30] <oly562> yah, i kicked a dog once for biting me, is that wrong?
[20:30] <oly562> im here for info and helping others, i do not see how any of this happens at all. other than, personal bias
[20:32] <mneptok> i'm looking in the bantracker, and i see that you have been banned multiple times, have been banned from this channel for your language, and have been quite profane and abusive in PM with other ops.
[20:32] <oly562> your ops are asses
[20:32] <mneptok> as you say, i have had no interaction with you.
[20:32] <mneptok> "my" ops?
[20:32] <oly562> those who have talked to me the way they did
[20:32] <oly562> they deserve it
[20:32] <mneptok> hardly. i'm just one among many equals.
[20:32] <oly562> right right
[20:33] <oly562> look,  take the ban off, and tell who it was
[20:33] <mneptok> but you admit there have been problems?
[20:33] <oly562> i admit there are problems with people like you who think they can talk to me this way
[20:33] <oly562> are you a lawyer?
[20:33] <mneptok> because i'm not getting involved. and i don't want you to think it's because i didn't even bother to look.
[20:33] <oly562> listen to you
[20:33] <oly562> bottom line is,,, there is no reason for the ban
[20:34] <oly562> my ban was lifted, i went in, got my info, and left
[20:34] <oly562> i come back today, 3 days later
[20:34] <IdleOne> The ban will not be lifted. not today. Your attitude and language in here proves you are unable to control yourself.
[20:34] <oly562> and it says im banned
[20:34] <oly562> so... for you and anyone like you, if i see you at a meeting, im going to come up and talk to you
[20:34] <oly562> see if you ban me then
[20:34] <oly562> i dont like people who are hardheaded and unfriendly
[20:35]  * mneptok is not sure what that means
[20:35] <oly562> and think they are gods of irc
[20:35]  * jrib is with mneptok
[20:35] <knome> me neither. please stop this sillyness.
[20:35] <IdleOne> oly562: you are welcome to come meet us at a Montreal meetup
[20:35] <oly562> right right
[20:35] <oly562> IdleOne:  your another one
[20:35] <IdleOne> I'll be happy to explain the ubuntu guidelines to you in person
[20:35] <oly562> sure you will
[20:35] <oly562> just like in here
[20:35] <oly562> take the ban off
[20:35] <oly562> now
[20:36] <oly562> and i will forgive your evil ways
[20:36] <IdleOne> not going to happen.
[20:36] <oly562> your a dick IdleOne
[20:36] <oly562> im sure im not the only one to express that
[20:36] <oly562> jerks
[20:36] <jrib> I had no clue what the ban was about, but I'm starting to get a feeling.  oly562 you need to calm down if you hope to get this sorted out.
[20:36] <knome> Tm_T, thanks
[20:36] <IdleOne> mneptok: Please remove him from here. We don't need to take this abuse. The ban will not be lifted until he learns to discuss like an adult and not make threats.
[20:37] <IdleOne> Tm_T: THANK YOU
[20:37] <mneptok> IdleOne: Tm_T has even less patience than i.
[20:37] <IdleOne> sorry caps
[20:37] <mneptok> his costume was nice, though. which makes this a really tough vote.
[20:37] <knome> imo it's not really about patience. it's about if you really should take all that
[20:38] <Tm_T> mneptok: wasn't about of patience, no need to give him more rope
[20:38] <mneptok> Tm_T: the marionette swings farther with more.
[20:38] <Tm_T> anyway, I'm going to sleep, good night all <3
[20:38] <knome> night Tm_T
[20:38] <jrib> night
[20:39] <mneptok> IdleOne: so ... is that true?
[20:39] <IdleOne> is what true?
[20:39] <mneptok> are you a dick?
[20:39] <IdleOne> I have been called worse
[20:39] <IdleOne> many times
[20:39] <IdleOne> so I suppose it is
[20:39] <mneptok> we all have. but being called something and being something are different.
[20:40] <IdleOne> when it comes to the Ubuntu guidelines I am strict
[20:40] <IdleOne> if that makes me a .... fine
[20:40] <IdleOne> that's what I am
[20:40] <mneptok> probably more so than i am. which i guess makes me the dick. if that's the pejorative du jour.
[20:41] <IdleOne> I rather not use any pejoratives
[20:42] <mneptok> take 2 before workouts for an energy boost.
[20:42] <IdleOne> heh
[20:48] <oly562> :|
[20:49] <oly562> i would like to have access to the #ubuntu room, or someone here help me with my driver issue
[20:49] <oly562> that is really ever what i need when i come to these rooms, some help
[20:50] <oly562> i would also like to know why i was banned from last time i logged in until today... when i tried again....
[20:50] <oly562> feel free to join in at anytime...  its 1:50pm pac time
[20:52] <oly562> ic, only when i start to get upset. will someone say something....
[20:52] <oly562> interesting
[20:52] <oly562> thats been the pattern everytime i have come in this room....
[20:53] <oly562> 2 mins have passed, im not an idle
[20:53] <oly562> and will wait here all day until i find out...
[20:57] <oly562> so
[20:57] <oly562> do i have to cuss to get attn?
[20:57] <oly562> that seems to be the only way to get a response,,,
[20:58] <knome> oly562, please.
[20:58] <oly562> knome: sighs... put yourself in my shoes
[20:58] <oly562> i say one cuss word or name call, and the room responds... that means, they are sitting and waiting for it....
[20:58] <oly562> make sense?
[20:58] <oly562> to me it does
[20:59] <knome> that's not true. people are volunteers, which means they are sitting and waiting for somebody to say something.
[20:59] <oly562> its not 1:58 pactime, still no response
[20:59] <knome> *not
[20:59] <oly562> of course they are
[20:59] <oly562> thats how it works
[20:59] <oly562> i have all my chat logs to prove it
[20:59] <oly562> time and time again
[20:59] <oly562> i have to actually get mean to get a response
[20:59] <oly562> lol
[20:59] <oly562> ridicilious
[21:00] <oly562> look,,, i just need access or can someone help with my driver issue, simple, i have wasted enough time
[21:00] <knome> please. you were given one chance today to resolve your issue but due to your attitude, it was not resolved. IdleOne even told you, the ban is not going to be lifted today. please come back in 24 hours.
[21:00] <oly562> i hate idle
[21:00] <oly562> and i told him to never speak to me again
[21:00] <oly562> did he listen?
[21:00] <knome> mneptok, ?
[21:00] <oly562> what makes him more important than me
[21:01] <oly562> IdleOne:
[21:01] <oly562> he knows, he is sitting there watching
[21:01] <oly562> mneptok: played lawyer with me
[21:01] <oly562> i dont like him anymore either
[21:01] <oly562> no one yet has addressed my question
[21:02] <oly562> now or the first time i came in here
[21:02] <knome> oly562, please. can you try to control yourself. come back in 24 hours and try to take a more positive attitude, and the ops will try to resolve your issue.
[21:02] <oly562> my attitude was nothing compared to waiting that long, when i say one bad thing and i get umptine responses
[21:02] <oly562> no, i need my drivers to work today
[21:02] <oly562> like now
[21:02] <oly562> is this how you will treat people who ask for help?
[21:03] <knome> this is not a support channel as the topic says.
[21:03] <knome> if you need the drivers to work now, you can search the forums or even call the paid support.
[21:03] <oly562> obviously its a no win situation in here, that comment shows me your like the rest.. not a real linux user, not part of linux community, and surely not able to ever try to understand
[21:03] <oly562> oh please.. your such a wuss
[21:04] <oly562> talk to me like a person not a scripted response
[21:04] <oly562> im not some noob
[21:04] <oly562> i just some links or basic advice, as i can not get this driver up... on ubuntu, other OS sure, ubuntu not....
[21:05] <gord> oly562, this is not a support channel, you will not find support here, please come back in 24 hours if you want to discuss your ban
[21:05] <oly562> every distro rolls thier own from source, and puts this or that there or here, and renames it to sound new,,, so witih Ubuntu, aka debian, its really upsetting.. to sit here and waste this much time
[21:05] <oly562> gord: are you a linux user?
[21:06] <oly562> then why arent you helping a fellow nixian
[21:06] <oly562> bah im bored, your not community, those who have spoke to me, your perpetrating frauds...
[21:06] <oly562> should for sure be volunteers
[21:06] <IdleOne> oly562: the original reason you were banned was because you kept asking for help with a modified java binary. you then came here and tsimpson gave you a chance, even after you abused the ops in here with bad language. ikonia read the back log of this channel and decided that your attitude in here did not warrant the chance and he reset the ban which I agree with. Your attitude and bad language in here today further solidifies my belief that yo
[21:06] <IdleOne> u are not able to follow our channel guidelines. The ban will not be lifted today. Please return in 24 hours with a better attitude and we can discuss this further at that time.
[21:07] <oly562> what??????????????????????????????//
[21:07] <oly562> are youuuuuuuuuuuuu
[21:07] <oly562> you talking about..............
[21:07] <oly562> what kinda crap is that
[21:07] <oly562> my attitude???????????????//
[21:07] <oly562> i dont NOT kiss peoples ass who are not worthy
[21:07] <IdleOne> it isn't crap it is the answer to your question.
[21:08] <IdleOne> and I do not take well to threats.
[21:08] <oly562> you are exactly the type of "op" i dispise
[21:08] <IdleOne> please leave now.
[21:08] <oly562> well what can i really say to that... except, do not talk to me again
[21:08] <oly562> like i told you before
[21:09] <IdleOne> that is fine but the ban stays
[21:09] <oly562> you have no idea what its like being on this end do you....
[21:09] <oly562> unable to ban people like you
[21:09] <oly562> your not my god
[21:09] <oly562> never
[21:09] <knome> mneptok?
[21:09] <IdleOne> I don't talk to people like you do
[21:09] <IdleOne> i threat people with respect
[21:09] <oly562> you dont have to
[21:10] <oly562> you have a button to push
[21:10] <oly562> so you push it
[21:10] <knome> IdleOne, s/threat/treat/ :)
[21:10] <IdleOne> i don't demand help from a volunteer community. I ask politely
[21:10] <IdleOne> knome: thank you
[21:10] <ikonia> I guess this is done then
[21:10] <guntbert> hi, can someone tell skism in #ubuntu to take it easy on the <enter> key ? -- he won't listen to me
[21:10] <knome> agreed.
[21:10] <oly562> im a voluteer each time i help someone, but i dont say,, Im a volunteer, i just do it
[21:10] <IdleOne> ikonia: this is done. yes
[21:10] <ikonia> IdleOne: yes
[21:10] <ikonia> guntbert: no problem
[21:10] <oly562> sighs...
[21:10] <guntbert> thx
[21:10] <oly562> ikonia: oh there you are
[21:11] <oly562> the one who started all this now and then
[21:11] <oly562> why did i get banned from 4 days ago until today?
[21:11] <IdleOne> I answered that already.
[21:11] <oly562> i tried to log in, and well, as you probably know, i was banned again
[21:11] <ikonia> apologies for the slow response, I was not here when you started
[21:11] <oly562> your NOT ikonia IdleOne
[21:11] <oly562> ok,,, ikonia 1. did you ban me the other day again?
[21:11] <oly562> if so.. why?
[21:12] <oly562> in #ubuntu
[21:12] <oly562> i log in today, and i get the ban pop up
[21:12] <oly562> ...
[21:12] <oly562> i tested skype with a user, then i logged off...
[21:12] <oly562> so why am i here today again, ikonia
[21:12] <ikonia> oly562: I told you the day you got banned that your modified flash package was not supported, tsimpson removed the ban, and you then started asking for help with your flash problem again
[21:13] <ikonia> that was the basis, however your long term attitude and inability to follow the rules is the long term issue
[21:13] <oly562> not following me question... read it again
[21:13] <oly562> that made no sense, long term
[21:13] <ikonia> ok, I'll try to be clearer
[21:13] <oly562> sorry i disagree
[21:13] <oly562> i know what and what not i do, im typing int
[21:13] <oly562> it
[21:13] <ikonia> this current ban was put in place due to you asking about your modified flash binariy after being told it is not supported
[21:14] <oly562> im also logging it
[21:14] <oly562> fine fine
[21:14] <ikonia> the channel is publicly logged
[21:14] <oly562> we discussed that
[21:14] <oly562> now.......... 1. why was a banned after that
[21:14] <oly562> from then to now
[21:14] <ikonia> oly562: you got unbanned, and rejoined ubuntu and started askig about it again
[21:14] <oly562> before i came in this room
[21:14] <ikonia> the day you go unbanned, you joined #ubuntu and started asking about your modified flash problem again
[21:14] <ikonia> so I banned you
[21:14] <oly562> no i did not
[21:15] <ikonia> you did
[21:15] <oly562> no
[21:15] <oly562> paste it here unmodified
[21:15] <ikonia> !logs
[21:15] <oly562> i mentioned i wouldnt be using that, not asking for questions about it... so that others may understand its not working
[21:15] <oly562> i know what i said and meant
[21:16] <ikonia> be with you in a minute while I pull the logs
[21:18] <oly562> sure
[21:18] <oly562> i have been here this long, why not a bit longer
[21:18] <oly562> :|
[21:19] <oly562> ops, did i show some attitude...
[21:19] <ikonia> drop the attitude if you want to talk about it properly
[21:19] <ikonia> ok done
[21:19] <oly562> see, ou were never really going to show anything
[21:19] <ikonia> not discussing this any more
[21:19] <oly562> see how quick witted and responsive you are
[21:19] <oly562> thats what i deal with in the public room
[21:19] <oly562> jerk
[21:19] <oly562> thats how you talk to me
[21:19] <ikonia> I am, I'm searching the logs, but I'm not having any more attitude from you
[21:19] <oly562> i dont like it
[21:19] <ikonia> bye
[21:19] <oly562> nah, you never wanted to help me now or then
[21:19] <ikonia> oly562: please leave the channel, this won't be discussed any more
[21:20] <oly562> your biased and should not be a volunteer
[21:20] <Seeker`> !appeals | oly562
[21:20] <Seeker`> !ops | oly562
[21:20] <oly562> yawn
[21:20] <oly562> again, overreacting
[21:20] <oly562> so you see people this is what i mean by biased
[21:21] <oly562> not really willing to help people just for the sake of helping, this is what i feel ubuntu is about... however, this is not the case with ikonia and his minions
[21:21] <oly562> actually looking at that list of help,, i noticed some of those were always at his side... pici, nalioth, what kinda of list is that
[21:22] <Seeker`> ty
[21:22] <knome> thanks.
[21:22] <ikonia> thank you, I refuse to discuss things while getting attitude like that
[21:22] <ikonia> I'm more than willing to through it with him, but not taking any more attitude/abuse from him
[21:23] <ikonia> oly562: if you remain calm and drop the abuse, I'm happy to discuss this with you, as normal humans do
[21:23] <ikonia> is that possible ?
[21:23] <oly562> what kinda of response is that,, how am i exactly to respond to that downgrading comment right there... think about it....
[21:24] <oly562> anything is possible with you ikonia
[21:24] <ikonia> oly562: yes or no is the response I'm expecting
[21:24] <oly562> sure
[21:24] <ikonia> oly562: ok, so you can keep calm and no abuse ? yes/no ?
[21:24] <oly562> id like my ban lifted, and why i was banned from 4 days ago and today... oh and yes, sure, of course, definitely
[21:24] <oly562> sometimes i type when your typing
[21:25] <oly562> if you talk to me normal i will do the same
[21:25] <oly562> deal?
[21:25] <oly562> yes/no?
[21:25] <ikonia> I've not talked rude or abusive to you, I don't expect it in return
[21:25] <KB1JWQ> Hows about we all be civil?
[21:25] <oly562> sighs..i simply woudl like to rejoin #ubuntu and solve my driver issue.... i dont get all this
[21:26] <oly562> i usually ask for links or a few commands im not familiar with... whats so hard about all this
[21:26] <oly562> i do not need all the personal attitude either
[21:26] <ikonia> oly562: please keep to this ban only
[21:26] <ikonia> I'm just pulling the logs for you now
[21:27] <oly562> why not simply let me go and ask my questions like i always have done.... forget all this other stuff. its after the fact
[21:27] <oly562> my god
[21:27] <ikonia> oly562: this is the last time I'll ask, please be patience and calm
[21:27] <ikonia> patient
[21:27] <oly562> im patient
[21:28] <oly562> i just dont kiss ass, and stop making me try to
[21:28] <ikonia> ok, please just wait quietly, and I'll grab the logs now and explain
[21:28] <ikonia> ok enough,
[21:28] <ikonia> I'm done
[21:28] <ikonia> oly562: please leave the channel, I'm not progressing this any more
[21:28] <oly562> anyway,,, if someone understands, they can help out.... as you can see this really is a personal issue
[21:28] <oly562> i am unable to resolve by myself
[21:29] <popey> @login
[21:29] <oly562> in the meantime, i will check google for answers.. while i waste time sitting here
[21:29] <Seeker`> oly562: please don't idle in here. You have been linked the appeals process already.
[21:29] <oly562> since this is "not" a support room
[21:29] <ikonia> oly562: please leave the channel, your ban won't be progressed at this time
[21:30] <Seeker`> nhandler: still about?
[21:30] <oly562> who is Seeker`?
[21:30] <Seeker`> oly562: I am an op.
[21:30] <oly562> oh hello
[21:30] <knome> nhandler, thanks. i love you eternally.
[21:30] <Seeker`> nhandler: care to remove him to?
[21:30] <nhandler> I'll remove the ban later in the hour. I just want to keep him from rejoining for now
[21:31] <Seeker`> ty
[21:31] <nhandler> Crap, I thought I had done a ban remove Seeker`
[21:31] <knome> way too much rope
[21:31] <ikonia> he's a long term problem user
[21:31] <Seeker`> for the 1,000,000,000th time, why do people get involved in hour long discussions with trolls?
[21:32] <knome> he seems to think that talking to a "new" op would trick us
[21:32] <ikonia> he knows what he's doing
[21:32] <knome> he should have been banned with the first kick really.
[21:32] <Seeker`> if the ircc would hurry up and get the ops in here sorted, he would have been.
[21:34] <knome> mmh.
[21:34] <nhandler> I disagree. There is no reason to ban someone on the first removal. Even the ban I have in place now will be removed shortly
[21:34] <knome> there should clearly be a time limit with these guys trying to resolve their bans
[21:34] <IdleOne> apparently every time a troll rejoins we have to go about the entire process of bending over for them.
[21:35] <Seeker`> nhandler: he has been through this several times before
[21:35] <Seeker`> he isn't a new user
[21:35] <knome> if there is no sign of any progress in sight in the first, say 20 minutes, then remove
[21:35] <knome> if the attitude remains negative whatever the ops said, i don't think it will improve after a kick. really.
[21:36] <Seeker`> nhandler: I'm all for giving people that aren't known to us a chance. But people that repeatedly waste hours of our time shouldn't be allowed to continue.
[21:36] <knome> agreed with Seeker`. even i can remember this guy from before, even if i don't read all the backlogs every day.
[21:36] <Seeker`> There was a question about how to reduce op fatigue / stress in one of the sessions in UDS. Allowing trolls to monopolise our time is the biggest thing we could do towards keeping ops sane.
[21:37] <Seeker`> *Not allowing
[21:38] <jrib> Seeker`: case in point, eh
[21:39] <IdleOne> I am all for not allowing people to abuse us. They abuse the community first which is what brings them here and then we have to take the abuse also? I don't think so.
[21:39] <Seeker`> nhandler: he was unbanned previously in #u, and started up with exactly what he was banned for before, so he was banned again. He then came in and spent an hour being abusive. He was unhappy with his ban, he wasn't going to get unbanned, so why not give him a link to !appeals and then stop him further wasting our time?
[21:39] <Seeker`> jrib: huh?
[21:39] <Seeker`> sorry, long day, tired
[21:40] <jrib> Seeker`: bad joke, the olly issue caused you to say "allow" instead of "not allow"
[21:40] <Seeker`> jrib: I've not been sane for a long time :P I'm still here after a few years :P
[21:41] <nhandler> Seeker`: He was given a link to the appeals process and then removed after refusing to leave when requested. But there is no reason for an initial ban to be set with that first removal
[21:41] <IdleOne> even after implied physical harm?
[21:42] <IdleOne> even after calling me a dick
[21:42] <IdleOne> even after cursing up a storm
[21:42] <IdleOne> today and the other day
[21:42] <IdleOne> to much hand holding. we need to kick asses when they need to be kicked
[21:42] <Seeker`> nhandler: if he wanted to contest his ban he can contact the IRCC. What purpose does allowing him back in serve?
[21:43] <IdleOne> rww: what's up?
[21:43] <Seeker`> nhandler: and it wasn't his first removal. It was his second *this evening*
[21:44] <rww> Hola. I take it that nhandler's email to ubuntu-irc applies to all channels covered by the bantracker?
[21:44] <nhandler> rww: Yes
[21:44] <rww> nhandler: I don't have BT access, and op #ubuntu-women. Can you pull any attached logfiles from my bans in there for me, please?
[21:45] <ikonia> I didn't think BT covered #ubuntu-women ?
[21:45] <rww> ikonia: it does
[21:45] <IdleOne> it does
[21:45] <ikonia> I never noticed that
[21:45] <rww> or process my operator application and give me BT access ;P. Either works ;P
[21:45] <nhandler> Hmm...Why does it is my question
[21:45] <elky> It was originally accidental, but it's been infinitely useful
[21:46] <IdleOne> it helps the UW team keep track of problem/repeat offenders
[21:46] <nhandler> elky: It might be useful, but if we are restricting the BT to the core channels, we should probably stick to that policy. Otherwise, we should make it available to other Ubuntu channels
[21:46] <nhandler> rww: I don't have an easy way to export a list, but I'll make sure someone gets you a list of active bans for #ubuntu-women from the BT
[21:47] <elky> Aaaand this is why the level of bureaucracy being build in to the irc landscape is scaring me.
[21:47] <Seeker`> nhandler: so, he was warned about his behaviour / asked to be patient by mnepto k, knom e, Tm_ T, IdleOne and ikonia. He was kicked once for his attitude, and the discussion was allowed to continue. And all of that doesn't deserve a ban, after he had been told the ban wasn't being removed and how to appeal, at which point being int he channel no longer serves any purpose other than to wind people up?
[21:48] <rww> nhandler: I'm more interested in any logs it has saved, actually. Thanks to some shuffling around of my irssi client's location, I think I might be missing context for some of them.
[21:48] <ikonia> rww: i cross check ban dates again the public logs if that helps
[21:48] <rww> ikonia: #ubuntu-women isn't publicly logged ;(
[21:48] <ikonia> ooh drat
[21:48] <nhandler> Seeker`: A removal yes. And maybe a temporary ban to keep him from initially rejoining, but in general users should be free to join this channel to discuss their bans with the OPs.
[21:49] <Seeker`> nhandler: Please explain to me the benefit of discussing a ban that an op has said will not be removed at this time?
[21:49] <Seeker`> nhandler: other than give trolls kicks and annoy ops?
[21:49] <IdleOne> Not after we have tried to discuss the ban and the user is abusive.
[21:52] <nhandler> Seeker`: I didn't say at that particulr moment. But i.e. he should be able to rejoin when he has had some time to think and read the links or after a few days. Bans are not permanent and he should be able to discuss it. IdleOne You are forgetting that we are banning people who have caused problems in the channel. If you are unable to talk to them due to their behavior, let another OP handle it. Our goal is to try and ...
[21:52] <nhandler> ... explain why that behavior is wrong and how to change it.
[21:52] <IdleOne> nhandler: 5 ops tried today
[21:52] <IdleOne> or 4
[21:53] <Seeker`> I never said that he should be banned permanently. Just that he would have been banned at the time when you first kicked him if I had +o.
[21:53] <IdleOne> When any one of us said anything he didn't agree with or didn't like the direction it was headed in he became abusive
[21:53] <IdleOne> He was the same way the other day.
[21:54] <Seeker`> nhandler: have you ever actually seen any of the discussions with that user? Or even read the backscroll from today?
[21:54] <nhandler> IdleOne: That should not be grounds for banning him from -ops. Tell him that you don't want to talk to him like that and he should leave until he is willing to talk calmly
[21:54] <IdleOne> nhandler: us telling him or asking him to leave is useless. he knows that only a few ops have the power to remove him and he continues to abuse until that happens
[21:54] <Seeker`> yes, and we all know every single user leaves politely when asked and doesn't come back for 48 hours, at which point they have a perfectly civil discussion
[21:55] <popey> Sarcasm overload!
[21:55] <knome> woot
[21:55] <nhandler> Seeker`: Banning for a short period of time for insisting on rejoining right away or after being removed is quite different than banning right of the bat
[21:55] <knome> :)
[21:56] <IdleOne> nhandler: So his history of abuse in this channel has no bearing ?
[21:56] <Seeker`> nhandler: where did I say he should have been banned right off the bat? Please show me?
[21:57] <Seeker`> nhandler: the point where you kicked him the first time was an hour after he originally joined. Hardly "off the bat"
[21:57] <nhandler> IdleOne: In treating him fairly, No. In deciding whether to unban him in the channel he is banned in, yes.
[21:57] <IdleOne> I think I did treat him fairly
[21:58] <nhandler> Banning him when I did the initial removal would not have been.
[21:58] <Seeker`> nhandler: what?! You've got to be kidding me?
[21:58] <Seeker`> nhandler: abusing ops for an hour isn't enough grounds to ban from the channel temporarily?
[21:59] <IdleOne> I think you are wrong. You are overlooking the fact that he called us dicks and minions and ass and that he implied to kick any one of our asses if he saw us at a meetup.
[21:59] <elky> IdleOne, eep. I remember the days when freenode would kline them for that :(
[21:59] <nhandler> Seeker`: What would be the point of that? To make him leave? That is what the removal is for. A ban is to keep someone who insists on rejoining afterwards out
[21:59] <IdleOne> yeah well apparently not anymore
[22:00] <Seeker`> nhandler: you were surpised when he rejoined? honestly?
[22:00] <popey> he had already rejoined after Tm_T kicked him
[22:01] <IdleOne> btw I believe he is in Ontario, and he is welcome to come to Montreal if he needs an explanation of the guidelines
[22:01] <Seeker`> nhandler: Please don't say you were surprised when he continued being uncooperative?
[22:01] <jrib> honestly, the kicks/removals are pointless.  "Stop being abusive or you will be banned."  And if he doesn't stop, ban.  What's the point of the kick?
[22:01] <IdleOne> +1 jrib
[22:01] <knome> +1
[22:01] <nhandler> Seeker`: No. But why not give him the benefit of a doubt that he will obey what was said and leave. It is minimal effort to ban him if he insists on immediately rejoining like he did
[22:02] <Seeker`> nhandler: why not look at the hour long backscroll of him being absuive?
[22:02] <Seeker`> nhandler: and save the ops the stress of him rejoining again straight away
[22:02] <IdleOne> because that would make sense
[22:03] <IdleOne> and sense does not seem to be what we have anymore
[22:03] <IdleOne> I am getting upset. I will strep away
[22:03] <IdleOne> step*
[22:03] <Seeker`> o/
[22:03] <popey> benefit of the doubt goes out of the window after direct abuse, veiled threats and a long past history.
[22:03] <popey> IMO
[22:03] <Seeker`> +1
[22:04] <knome> mm
[22:04] <knome> Seeker`, i really think you should gather an email about all your worthy thoughts today, sir
[22:04] <popey> especially after already being informed of the appeals process on numerous occasions and taking no steps to actually use it
[22:05] <Seeker`> knome: what? so it can be added to a wiki page, someone will think up some action to apply that never gets looked at again?
[22:06] <Seeker`> knome: feel free to quote me if you wish to put together such an email
[22:06] <knome> Seeker`, no, to be discussed. i can pull the noses of topyl i and juss i if it does not get discussed.
[22:07] <knome> i'll see if i have some time. studies and work keep me busy. :/
[22:10] <rww> nhandler: anyway. Is there any chance of getting logfiles? Does BT even keep logfiles? I have no idea :<
[22:11] <jrib> rww: I have a couple of minutes, do you just want a list of bans by "rww"?
[22:11] <nhandler> rww: It has logs of what happened around the time of the ban, but I'll have to see if these can easily be exported
[22:12] <ikonia> if he's an op of -women, can we not grant him bt access?
[22:12] <ikonia> the tool is used in #ubuntu-women, so give him access to help him do his job ?
[22:12]  * jrib agrees
[22:12] <IdleOne> +1
[22:14] <rww> nhandler: Alrighty. If it's not possible, I can pester the other ops. I'm going to need to do that to get stuff @commented anyway >.>
[22:14] <ikonia> rww: lets get you access
[22:14] <ikonia> its the most common sense thing to do
[22:15] <ikonia> your op'ing in a channel that uses ubottu and bt so lets get you access
[22:15] <IdleOne> rww: feel free to msg me to add comments to bans/ see logs of bans you have set until you have access to BT
[22:16] <nhandler> rww: I'll make sure you get a copy of the relevant entries in the db
[22:16] <ikonia> it can't be that hard to get him access, I can give him the command to grant him access if no-one objects ?
[22:16] <ikonia> nhandler: what ?
[22:16] <ikonia> how about get him access
[22:17] <nhandler> ikonia: I don't have access to add him. But I did bring that up with the council (but it is getting late in Europe)
[22:17] <ikonia> I'll add him if your comfortable
[22:17] <ikonia> he's opping in a channel that uses the tool
[22:18] <ikonia> he should have access
[22:18] <nhandler> ikonia: Wait at least until tomorrow for us to sort this out
[22:18] <ikonia> nhandler: I'll be happy to wait
[22:19] <ikonia> this is hilighting the red tape issue
[22:19] <ikonia> is he an op in a channel that uses BT - yes
[22:19] <ikonia> as an op in a channel should he have access to BT like the rest of us, - yes
[22:19] <ikonia> why does that need to be checked/cleared up/discussed
[22:20] <rww> nhandler: Alrighty. I'll come back in a few days if I don't hear from y'all in the meantime. Thanks :)
[22:21] <Pici> rww: You'll hear from us shortly.
[22:21] <Pici> As will the rest of the ops in u-w.
[22:22] <ikonia> Pici: what's being discussed, if the ops should have access or if u-w should use bt ?
[22:23] <Pici> ikonia: We don't set the ops in u-w.  And there isn't the capability currently to limit results to just channels that operators have access to.
[22:23] <ikonia> is that needed ? you can search by channel
[22:24] <Seeker`> @btlogin
[22:24] <ikonia> or does the search function not pickup #ubuntu-women as it wasn't a channel it was intended to use
[22:25] <Pici> Its a question of letting people that we have not vetted have access to the comments and ban records of all channels.
[22:25] <ikonia> Pici: fair enough
[22:26] <ikonia> Pici: I assume this is part of the definition of a core channel and the sub discussions under that
[22:26] <Pici> ikonia: It was, but its gotten all complicated now.
[22:26] <ikonia> Pici: I can see how it would, thank you