[12:23] <persia> ScottL, Just a couple quick notes from UDS: 1) I think that automatic full integration between pulse and jack won't land for natty (still needs thinking/discussion), although diwic should improve things.  2) UKT won't produce -lowlatency, but *will* document a clean procedure for other folk to upload kernels properly, so we can have it if someone does it.
[12:24] <persia> rlamiero: I'd be very concerned about any tool that encouraged adding PPAs, but I think you know my opinions about them anyway :)
[12:41] <scott-work> persia: i spoke with abogani recently (approximately one week ago) and he confirms that he has been working on the -lowlatency kernel for natty
[12:42] <scott-work> this is good news indeed, and i can stop trying to bug JFo about it :)
[12:42] <persia> Excellent.  It may need slight adjustment to match the document coming out of UKT, but I don't see any real obstacles to getting it into the archive for natty.
[12:42] <scott-work> did UKT say when the documentation will be ready?
[12:42] <persia> Based on the UDS discussion, I don't think JFo will be able to help directly, except in the sense of helping drive the delivery of the documentation.
[12:42] <persia> No.
[12:42]  * scott-work thinks that having clean documentation is a far better system than assigning mentors
[12:43] <persia> Oh, yeah.
[12:43] <persia> Assignment of mentors doesn't scale well.
[12:44] <scott-work> in regards to 1),  i had reservations about full integration for natty because i expected upstream's involvement to be required
[12:44] <scott-work> nonetheless, i always welcome and appreciate progress :)
[12:45] <persia> My understanding is that there will be discussions with lennart at plumbers next week, but it looks like a bundle of work to get the user experience right.
[12:45] <scott-work> persia: i would like to mention a few things about seeds and the -meta package
[12:46] <persia> Sure.  I'm caught up on backscroll in this channel, so I saw some of the stuff you and stochastic were discussing.
[12:46] <scott-work> there is quite a bit of email on the lists about this continuing and stochastic has expressed significant interest in the procedures
[12:46] <scott-work> s/procedures/proceedings
[12:47] <scott-work> i would like to define two weeks from now as the date that i push changes and ./update the -meta package
[12:48] <scott-work> i would like to push the discussions forward to resolution by that time
[12:48] <scott-work> thereby giving a couple of weeks before the first alpha is out, i presume that should be a necessary minimum of time to sort any problems
[12:49] <persia> That sounds like a reasonable plan.
[12:50] <persia> I'd recommend focusing on structure first: it is a lot easier to refine the details (add or remove one or two packages) later, rather than needing to do another overhaul.
[12:52] <scott-work> persia: i believed we had the structure defined last time we spoke: audio-common, generation, recording    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelectionDevelopment
[12:53]  * scott-work found many errors in the last link when updating the seeds
[12:54] <scott-work> persia: and this are the steps i expect are necessary to update everything:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Seeds%20Update
[12:55] <scott-work> i have already branched the code and updated most of the seeds, now i am waiting for all the list discussions to resolve into a final decision to make final edits before pushing
[12:56] <persia> -live would include -common?
[12:56] <scott-work> i should also note that it appears that a "performance" or "live" seed might be advantageous from some of the feedback, especially from stochastic
[12:56] <scott-work> persia: yes, in the STRUCTURE file i expected to have -live depend on -common
[12:57] <persia> I still think mixxx/terminatorx/xwax all cover a common case, and that we ought to pick one, although I've been shouted down about that before a few times over the years.
[12:59] <scott-work> i believe you preferred mixxx over the other two?
[12:59] <scott-work> this would align with comments from others and i would like to hear stochastic's opinion as well since he has exponentially more experience than i
[12:59] <persia> xwax wasn't in the archives last time I pushed it.  I personally like the terminatorx interface and like that it's small on the image, but mixxx has *lots* more features, and some of the DJs I know have switched to using xwax more recently.
[13:00] <persia> But, yeah, needs input from the experts: I'm just violently against recommending two tools to solve the same thing.  I think we should have one by default, and allow folk who want a different one to install from the repos.
[13:02] <TheMuso> Would be worth getting dholbach's thoughts on xwax.
[13:02] <persia> Absolutely.  I know he decided against switching from raw vinyl to mixxx in the past.
[13:04] <scott-work> persia:  i agree with one tool per use and letting users install differing applications
[13:05] <scott-work> sometimes it's hard to convince users of this :P   some of the mailing list can attest to this
[13:08] <persia> Heh, yeah.
[13:09] <persia> The -video seed is *full* of this issue.
[13:09] <persia> I'm tasked with a few things from UDS that may help with that, mostly related to creating shared semantic values for "flavour" and "product", which can be used to bang the "opinionated defaults" drum a bit harder.
[13:20] <scott-work> TheMuso: i read jono's latest (or one of the latest) post and noticed he mentioned your involvement with accessability in Unity, i would expect congratulations are in order :)
[14:40] <scott-work> persia:  and the -video seed will most likely remain contentious for some time, even now the current discussion about seeds contains advocation for several video applications
[14:40] <scott-work> persia: although i am asking if we could consolidate applications which might cover several use cases
[14:42] <scott-work> persia: by "flavour" and "product" are you refering to Ubuntu distributions or something else?  i'm not sure i follow the logic about how it would help with "opinionated defaults"
[15:19] <paultag> morning scott-upstairs 
[15:19] <paultag> ern scott-work 
[15:19] <paultag> that's what you were using :)
[15:24] <scott-work> morning paultag
[15:24]  * scott-work sheepishly admits he should probably log off on at least *one* computer ;)
[15:24] <paultag> scott-work, have you played with znc ?
[15:25] <paultag> scott-work, it will let you do all of what you normally do under one nickname, and keep you online and stuff
[15:25] <paultag> Ah, here it is -- http://en.znc.in/wiki/ZNC
[15:27] <AutoStatic> uname -a
[15:27] <AutoStatic> he he, wrong terminal :)
[15:27] <paultag> AutoStatic, :)
[15:28] <paultag> BRB
[15:35] <scott-work> hmmmm, i will certainly have to look into that paultag, that might greatly simplify a few things for me :)
[15:35] <paultag> :)
[15:57] <dholbach> hiya
[16:11] <TheMuso> scott-work: I suggest also looking into bip as an alternative.
[16:13] <scott-work> dholbach: we are currently evaluating the applications included in ubuntu studio, specifically DJ application at the moment
[16:14] <scott-work> dholbach:  we were curious about your thoughts about xwax, since we knew that you used it
[16:14] <scott-work> TheMuso: i will look into bip as well :)
[16:14] <dholbach> scott-work, I'd love to push the 0.8-beta release into natty - it works great for me and it adds a 45rpm mode, which I was keen to get in :)
[16:15] <dholbach> scott-work, also I'm talking to the kernel team about fixing some issue I have since some lucid sru, we're in the process of bisecting it
[16:15] <scott-work> dholbach: have you tried mixxx in contrast to xwax?  do you prefer one over the other?  why?
[16:15] <dholbach> I didn't try mixxx yet
[16:17] <scott-work> my understanding was that mixxx has many featuers, perhaps significantly more than xwax, but i do not use DJ applications so I am not in a position to state demonstratively
[16:18] <dholbach> scott-work, I didn't use mixxx as my understanding was that it was for "on your machine mixing" and not just using your machine as a 'controller'
[16:18] <dholbach> but I might be wrong
[16:19] <dholbach> xwax certainly works alright for my use case :)
[16:20] <scott-work> dholbach: one of the studio developers (stochastic) is involved in DJ applications, hopefully we can get some clear answers and expand all of our understandings
[16:21] <dholbach> scott-work, so I don't have much more input :)
[16:22] <scott-work> dholbach:  we certainly appreciate you stopping by though :)
[16:23] <dholbach> :-)
[19:39] <stochastic__> scott-work, I would highly recommend putting both mixxx and xwax into the -playback seed, mixxx is best for software-only mixing, while xwax is best for timecoded turntables being used as a controller for mp3/ogg mixing.
[19:40] <stochastic__> ScottL, scott-upstairs  ^^
[19:42] <stochastic__> I was also trying to figure out which seed would be the best for putting notation software into
[19:47] <stochastic__> My thoughts are that they should be put together with the programming applications such as PD, CSound, and Chuck as often the people who would use the programming software would also use notation software
[19:47] <stochastic__> call it a -composition meta
[19:53] <stochastic__> I also think 'generation' should be called 'synthesis' or 'creation' as generation implies generative algorithms in my mind.
[19:56] <scott-work> stochastic__:  including both xwax and mixxx sound reasonable for the reasons you listed, two different use cases
[19:56] <scott-work> stochastic__:  do you believe there is enough demand to create an additional seed and meta for programming applications?
[19:57] <stochastic__> scott-work, yeah, I was going to add both workflows to the wiki soon
[19:58] <stochastic__> scott-work, that is the one good argument against doing so, but those applications are all very lightweight, so it would likely take very little space on the disks and would be very nice for people in the field to have ready to go
[19:59] <stochastic__> scott-work, where were you thinking of putting the notation applications?
[20:00] <scott-work> sorry, was interrupted at work - i am worried that we will end up with five audo tasks (along with plugins, graphics, and video) for tasksel during installation, which I think might start to become overwhelming
[20:02] <rlameiro> stochastic__: hey man :D long time no see :D
[20:02] <stochastic__> that's an inherent issue with splitting up the metas
[20:02] <stochastic__> but I am supportive of this idea for specialized metas
[20:03] <stochastic__> hey rlameiro
[20:03] <stochastic__> rlameiro, do you think a programming meta would be a good idea?  one that has PD, CSound, Chuck, etc... (maybe with all the add-ons such as GEM)
[20:04] <rlameiro> stochastic__: yeap, there is no workflow for that, at least generally, but I talked with scott-work about it. It will be very nice for academic work also
[20:05] <scott-work> debian has lots of pd stuff coming in currently
[20:05] <rlameiro> stochastic__: a meta for it is completely understanble and logical
[20:05] <scott-work> let's just hope debian releases before natty :P
[20:06] <rlameiro> scott-work: they are putting pd-extended in debian, and they are splitting all the libs in separetad packages
[20:06] <stochastic__> NICE! that's awesome
[20:07] <rlameiro> yeap, hans is talking about that a long time
[20:07] <rlameiro> I think the kickstrats was when he attended at the debconf
[20:11] <stochastic__> scott-work, I also wanted to let you know that I'm still up for assisting with the implementation of any website changes.  I am in possession of an entire off-line backup of the site so I can test out changes fully.
[20:12] <stochastic__> I am however, staying silent (but following along) during the design phase - for now.
[20:13] <rlameiro> stochastic__: do you want to help me designing some testing procedures after the workflows?
[20:13] <rlameiro> i will work on that after November
[20:14] <stochastic__> rlameiro, testing in what sense?
[20:14] <rlameiro> testing if the workflows works on the release
[20:14] <rlameiro> ISO testing basically, for instance design a test for firewire audio
[20:14] <rlameiro> another for ardour workflow etccc
[20:15] <stochastic__> I may not have time to do that
[20:15] <rlameiro> oh no, I just wanted an experienced opinion :D not asking you to make the work
[20:15] <rlameiro> since you were very involved in testing
[20:19] <stochastic__> rlameiro, I could offer some opinions, but really I think the workflows themselves would be self descriptive test procedures
[20:20] <rlameiro> yeap i think the same, nevertheless it need to go to the QA team.
[20:40] <scott-work> sorry, was upgrading from AutoCAD 2008 to AutoCAD2010 and computer restarted
[20:42] <rlameiro> scott-upstairs: talking about you in LO
[20:42] <rlameiro> scott-work:  talking about you in LO
[20:44] <rlameiro> scott-work: finish :D
[20:52] <scott-work> oh, linux outlaws?  i wrote them an email last night
[20:52] <scott-work> i hope they were saying nice things *fingers crossed*
[20:52] <scott-work> rlameiro: ^^^
[20:52] <scott-work> i think Fab and I got a little crossed during an email exchange
[20:53] <rlameiro> scott-work: he tought you where a fanboy :D and dan said him you where the US leader :D
[20:53] <rlameiro> lol
[20:53] <rlameiro> it was nice
[20:54] <scott-work> *relieve* good :)
[20:59] <scott-work> rlameiro: now, i'm all curious, what did LO say?
[21:00] <rlameiro> well, now i dont remeber :D
[21:00] <rlameiro> dan said it will put link about workflows etc
[21:00] <rlameiro> he did say it was a long mail :D
[21:03] <scott-work> oh aye, it was :P
[23:41] <persia> stochastic, ScottL: http://www.mixxx.org/features.php claims that mixxx supports timecode: is something known buggy about this?
[23:43] <persia> ScottL, defining "product" isn't something I'll be able to do precisely until later in the week, but it's something about how the contents of Ubuntu images are selected, which helps remind people of prior discussion on opinionated defaults (that we like one thing to do each thing, and pick one because we like it)
[23:50] <stochastic> persia, xwax is much better at the timecode thing.  Sort of like qtractor can do multi-channel audio editing, but ardour does it much better.
[23:51] <persia> heh, OK.
[23:52] <persia> We probably ought to try to help fix that, so we can have one thing (either making xwax handle other mixing or making mixxx handle vinyl better)