[14:59] <mvo> hi
[14:59] <mvo> sorry robbiew for missing the mumble call, this week we changed from daytime-saving back so I thought it was 1h later
[15:00] <robbiew> mvo: no worries...you're fired
[15:00] <robbiew> :P
[15:00] <mvo> *arrr*
[15:02] <cjwatson> mvo: like anyone else was in it anyway. :)
[15:02] <mvo> all fired!
[15:03] <barry> mumble fail
[15:03] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[15:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is robbiew.
[15:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:04] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[15:04] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
[15:04] <robbiew> :)
[15:04] <ev> lol
[15:04] <barry> best meeting EVAR
[15:04] <robbiew> \o/
[15:04] <mvo> lol
[15:04] <robbiew> mvo: on mumble, if you want to join
[15:06]  * cjwatson quotefiles
[19:00] <highvoltage> Edubuntu meeting going to start around 5 minutes late  (sorry)
[19:03]  * stgraber waves
[19:03] <stgraber> hey sbalneav
[19:03] <highvoltage> hey it's sbalneav!
[19:04] <sbalneav> present.
[19:04] <highvoltage> I added most of the items from UDS to our roadmap page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
[19:05] <highvoltage> it includes some important dates, milestones and the work items for those milestones
[19:05] <highvoltage> it will probably expand a bit over the next few weeks and the milestone items will probably even out at least a bit
[19:07] <highvoltage> edubuntu-council members are expiring end of 2010, so we'll need to contact the CC for the EC elections/re-elections/re-confirmation/(whatever-it-will-be)
[19:07] <highvoltage> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-council/+members#active
[19:08]  * stgraber is getting something to drink. Speaking for 2 hours in a very warm conference room really kills you.
[19:09] <highvoltage> I just did that too :)
[19:10] <highvoltage> I sent an e-mail out to the current EC, just so that we'll know who still wants to be on it for when we email the CC
[19:11] <mgariepy> hello
[19:11] <highvoltage> ideally we'd want as many people to stay on it as possible
[19:11] <highvoltage> howdy marc
[19:12] <highvoltage> nixternal: are you around?
[19:13] <stgraber> hey lak
[19:13] <stgraber> alkisg
[19:13] <alkisg> Hi all
[19:13] <stgraber> (autocomplete mistake ;))
[19:14] <highvoltage> I didn't get any answer from that email yet, if I don't by tomorrow I'll just start poking everyone with a very, very sharp stick
[19:14] <sbalneav> Owing to my personal life, my involvement for the last 6 months was sucktastic.  I'd be more than happy to stay on, as I *DO* want to get back into the swing of things (my lack of participation wasn't due to lack of interest on my part).  That having been said, if someone else wanted my spot, I'd be more than happy to surrender my spot to free up space for someone else.  I'm planning on being in for the long haul, and I don't 
[19:15] <highvoltage> sbalneav: IRC cut you off after "and I don't..."
[19:15] <highvoltage> sbalneav: but I think the gist of it is there, and I can't speak for everyone but I for one am glad to have you onboard there and I think everyone else is too!
[19:16] <sbalneav> need official titles to keep me interested :)
[19:16] <highvoltage> :)
[19:17] <highvoltage> we can even make up a few if you want?
[19:17] <sbalneav> Cheif cook and bottle washer seems to be the one that suits me most in my life :)
[19:18] <highvoltage> I was thinking more in terms of something that includes beer and pizza in the title, but we need that position filled as well, so why not :)
[19:18] <stgraber> hehe
[19:19] <highvoltage> we didn't have much planned for this meeting, it's our first one after UDS though
[19:19] <stgraber> anyway, based on the list of members in edubuntu-members on LP and the current EC members, I don't think it's going to change much. We just want to know who still wants to be on board, so we can merge that to the list of people who'd like to join and send that to the CC for final decision
[19:19] <highvoltage> stgraber: we don't need to write up any specifications, right? is there anything pending approval?
[19:20] <stgraber> that should be a quick and easy process, so we have the EC renewed for a year and can continue our work
[19:20] <stgraber> highvoltage: we might need to update and assign some of our specs, but that's about what's needed at this stage
[19:20] <highvoltage> ok, great.
[19:21] <stgraber> highvoltage: I don't know if you worked on the work items yet, that'd be something good to have in the blueprint whiteboard
[19:21] <highvoltage> I guess it's also worth mentioning (if anyone else missed it perhaps) that next UDS will be in Budapest, Hungary
[19:21] <stgraber> but it's really details as we already know who's going to work on it and don't have dependencies on other teams except cjwatson and ev for the installer issue
[19:21]  * mhall119 is looking forward to a european trip
[19:22] <highvoltage> mhall119: yeah!
[19:22] <mhall119> highvoltage: do they allow South Africans in Hungary?
[19:22] <highvoltage> mhall119: it's in the schengen area so getting a visa will be easy :)
[19:23] <mhall119> schengen?
[19:23] <stgraber> hey mhall119, did you get the answers you needed from Dylan on Friday ? I didn't really see you much after that.
[19:23] <mhall119> stgraber: I did, but I'm working mostly by memory now, he put me on the right track at least
[19:23] <mhall119> wish I had something to take notes on that night
[19:23] <highvoltage> mhall119: not sure what exactly it means but it covers a bunch of european countries, I used it before to travel to france/spain
[19:23] <stgraber> mhall119: cool
[19:23] <mhall119> highvoltage: oh good
[19:24] <highvoltage> mhall119: and the US visa stuff will be easier next time, so next time in Orlando should be easy too!
[19:24] <stgraber> highvoltage: that's all countries that signed the schengen-dublin agreement for exchange of goods and people traveling through the schengen area
[19:24] <mhall119> hopefully there will be a next time in Orlando too
[19:24] <highvoltage> mhall119: aparently there will be
[19:24] <mhall119> that's the rumor
[19:25] <mhall119> I haven't heard it confirmed yet
[19:25] <stgraber> we'll probably know more at next uds
[19:25] <highvoltage> yup
[19:27] <highvoltage> anything we need to cover for this meeting? at this stage I feel all talked-out and just want to do stuff :)
[19:27] <mhall119> so there will remain the "2d" gnome session in 11.04, so the big question for the qimo session will be gconf->dconf issues
[19:27] <mhall119> I assume those will hit sabayon and other parts of Edubuntu as well
[19:28] <highvoltage> indeed.
[19:28] <highvoltage> mhall119: have you looked at dconf at all?
[19:28] <mhall119> I'm not sure how to start testing that, can I just install gnome3 packages inside a maverick vm?
[19:28] <mhall119> highvoltage: not yet
[19:28] <mhall119> I just got to where I kind of understood gconf :(
[19:29] <highvoltage> "Having all of the keys in a single compact binary format also avoids the intense fragmentation problems currently experienced by the tree-of-directories-of-xml-files approach."
[19:29] <highvoltage> ugh
[19:30] <highvoltage> having everything in one binary caused lots of problems in the Windows registry in the first versions of Windows that used it, hopefully gnome will handle it more elegantly :)
[19:30] <highvoltage> (that's on http://live.gnome.org/dconf btw)
[19:31] <mhall119> yeah, it'll at least support stacking different dconf sources
[19:34] <mhall119> also http://library.gnome.org/devel/gio/2.25/ch26.html
[19:34] <mhall119> "Migrating from GConf to GSettings"
[19:34] <highvoltage> heh, stgraber just talked about that
[19:34] <highvoltage> (well, IRL)
[19:36] <highvoltage> mhall119: I have no idea how you currently plan to do the qimo stuff (time-wise)
[19:36] <highvoltage> mhall119: but I guess a lot of things will become somewhat clearer towards alpha 1
[19:36] <mhall119> highvoltage: neither do I
[19:36] <mhall119> I'd like to get a quick and dirty qimo-session-gnome working as soon as I can, then clean it up over the rest of the cycle
[19:37] <mhall119> it'll kind of depend on when gnome3 lands in 11.04 though
[19:37] <highvoltage> mhall119: I think we should target to have at least a working qimo gnome session in there by alpha 2, since feature freeze happens a few weeks after that
[19:37] <mhall119> will alpha1 have gnome2 or gnome3?
[19:38] <highvoltage> I don't know, I hope that it contains at least most of the important parts
[19:39] <mhall119> guess we'll find out
[19:39] <mhall119> I already made a working custom session in gnome2
[19:39] <mhall119> it's just not been configured to be Qimo-like
[19:40] <highvoltage> ok, most of that work should still work in gnome3 at least.
[19:40] <mhall119> we may have to support both gconf and dconf in the next release, there's a bunch of apps that don't look to have been ported
[19:40] <highvoltage> mhall119: from what I understand from what stgraber explained to me, if you use gsettings then it shouldn't matter
[19:41] <mhall119> right, but for me I have to separate the configs of multiple apps between Qimo sessions and Gnome sessions
[19:41] <mhall119> if some apps are still using gconf, instead of gsettings, I've got to provide separate stores for both
[19:43] <highvoltage> ok, I didn't realise you modify application settings as well
[19:43] <mhall119> I modify some of their default, specifically the gnome panels and nautilus desktop manager parts
[19:43] <highvoltage> mhall119: can I get it from a ppa or a branch or something?
[19:43] <highvoltage> well gnome-panel and nautilus should be fine
[19:43] <mhall119> highvoltage: no, I've just been hacking stuff in a vm so far
[19:43] <highvoltage> ok
[19:44] <mhall119> it's very crude, more just to prove that a qimo-gnome-session is possible
[19:44] <highvoltage> mhall119: well, one thing you could perhaps do so long is clone that vm and dist-upgrade it to natty and roll with the updates and see what breaks already
[19:44] <mhall119> true, I'll give that a go
[19:46] <highvoltage> let's move over to #edubuntu, I guess we have nothing left that we need to do in meeting space :)
[21:01] <barry> james_w, slangasek, thumper, ajmitch ready for our meeting?
[21:01] <james_w> hola
[21:01]  * slangasek waves
[21:02] <barry> poolie seems to be offline
[21:02] <barry> #startmeeting
[21:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:02. The chair is barry.
[21:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:02]  * james_w apologies as he will have to leave before the hour mark
[21:02] <thumper> ah...
[21:02] <thumper> is this the time we had it last time?
[21:02] <ajmitch> it is
[21:02] <barry> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101103
[21:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101103
[21:02] <james_w> I'm pretty sure
[21:02] <flacoste> me
[21:02] <barry> utc-wise, yes :)
[21:02] <flacoste> barry: poolie is
[21:02] <barry> flacoste: hi!
[21:03]  * ajmitch is here, though I'd forgotten about it
[21:04] <barry> [TOPIC] action items
[21:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[21:04] <barry>    * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c
[21:04] <barry>  
[21:04] <barry> not done
[21:04] <barry>    * barry to talk to dholbach about making sure udd is well advertised in pkg guide
[21:04] <barry>  
[21:05] <barry> i did talk a little to dholbach about this at one of the many uds sessions.  james_w was probably there too (as was poolie).  he wants to promote/document udd we just have to figure out how to do this
[21:05] <barry> so i think this item is "done" though there's probably a future action item about actually helping dholbach with the integration
[21:06] <barry> james_w: your thoughts?
[21:06] <james_w> indeed
[21:06] <james_w> barry, I agree with barry
[21:06] <barry> cool
[21:06] <barry>    * poolie to start list thread to find problems which can be carried on at UDS
[21:06] <barry>  
[21:06] <barry> i think this is not done
[21:06] <persia> Just as a note on historical practices, it might be better to take an action to write the docs in consultation with dholbach, rather than helping him with them.
[21:07] <barry> persia: i figure it will us writing the bulk of the docs and daniel helping to integrate them
[21:07] <barry> well, poolie's action item is probably moot now, but i'll leave it on the agenda until he says otherwise
[21:08] <barry> [TOPIC]  * UDS post-mortem
[21:08] <barry>  
[21:08] <MootBot> New Topic:   * UDS post-mortem
[21:09] <barry> just a quick apology for letting two of our sessions get lost in the shuffle.  after talking with robbiew about rescheduling due to poolie's travel adventures, i lost track of the sessions and realized too late that the education and user feedback sessions didn't get rescheduled :(  i take the blame for that
[21:09] <barry> we did have a good planning session though i thought
[21:09] <barry> we need to get poolie's notes into the blueprint though because gobby was down at the time
[21:10] <barry> i'll take an action item to check with him on that
[21:10] <barry> [ACTION] barry to ask poolie to put his session notes in the blueprint
[21:10] <MootBot> ACTION received:  barry to ask poolie to put his session notes in the blueprint
[21:10] <barry> does anybody else have any feedback on uds?
[21:11] <james_w> I found it very useful
[21:11] <james_w> there was better feedback than previous UDS, so I think that it's something people are thinking about much more
[21:11] <james_w> unfortunately though there are still plenty of hurdles
[21:12] <barry> true.  on the positive side, i've heard we may have a really stellar candidate for the job opening
[21:13] <james_w> excellent
[21:13] <barry> i also think the planning session was really excellent.  great feedback from folks like slangasek
[21:14] <slangasek> sorry I couldn't attend the whole session, but glad my feedback was helpful
[21:14] <barry> any other thoughts on uds?
[21:14] <barry> flacoste: we missed you and illuminati :)
[21:15] <barry> [TOPIC] top bugs
[21:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  top bugs
[21:15] <james_w> the session identified some focii for the various teams, but didn't really get them all assigned, do we need to work on that?
[21:15] <james_w> whoops, sorry
[21:16] <jelmer> 'evening
[21:16] <barry> jelmer: hi!
[21:16] <james_w> hi jelmer
[21:16] <flacoste> barry: i should be at the next one :-)
[21:16] <barry> james_w: we do, but i think poolie's got the list so i think we have to wait for him
[21:16] <barry> flacoste: \o/
[21:17] <barry> here's the pre-uds list.  i guess next time we can consolidate them with the list from the session:
[21:17] <barry> * bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek)
[21:17] <barry>    * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/295274|(watch file support)]] - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n
[21:17] <barry>    * [[https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307|Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys]]
[21:17] <barry>    * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395|bzr commit in a heavyweight checkout does not propagate new tags]]
[21:17] <barry>    * changelog merge problem (probably caused by dpkg-mergechangelogs).  need more investigation by barry
[21:18] <barry> james_w: and i looked at the watch file bug and i made notes.  hopefully i can understand them now that uds is over and make some progress on the bug
[21:18] <slangasek> james_w: any status change on bug #653832? 696 failed imports :/
[21:18] <persia> For the watchfile thing: probably best to check for debian/rules get-orig-source: before trusting it
[21:19] <james_w> slangasek, yes, at least in the gourmet case, did it ever get retried?
[21:19] <slangasek> james_w: it was retried before you commented that the bug was "harder than you thought"
[21:19] <barry> persia: right
[21:19] <slangasek> not retried after that, is that the next step?
[21:19] <james_w> slangasek, ok, I'll retry now
[21:19] <slangasek> ok, thanks
[21:19] <james_w> slangasek, it may well stamp on your revisions in that branch though :-(
[21:20] <slangasek> fwiw, gourmet is far from the only interesting package in that list
[21:20] <james_w> indeed
[21:20] <slangasek> ah, well, I guess I'll cope :)
[21:21] <barry> any other feedback on top bugs?
[21:22] <james_w> spiv seemed to have a good handle on the corruption in bug 653307, but not exactly how it came about
[21:22] <barry> excellent
[21:23] <james_w> he said that the easiest fix might be to re-import all of those branches
[21:24] <ScottK> barry: I'd like to see someone tackle Bug #499684 sooner rather than later as the more users there are, the harder it will be to change to something better.
[21:25] <barry> ScottK: yeah, we talked about that at uds.  the -- is really ugly :/
[21:25] <ScottK> Yep
[21:26] <barry> ScottK: i'll put that on the top bugs list
[21:26] <jelmer> james_w: do you know whether it's easily possible to support not explicitly declared options in a bzr subcommand?
[21:26] <james_w> jelmer, I do not. It's probably not that much work to add
[21:27] <james_w> I got bored of trying to add them explicitly, mainly because trying to explain the meaning of things like -su vs. -sa is really hard
[21:29] <barry> james_w: where is -su documented?  i don't see it in dpkg-genchanges
[21:29] <barry> (manpage)
[21:29] <james_w> sorry, I mean -si
[21:29]  * barry nods
[21:30] <barry> moving on...
[21:30] <barry> [TOPIC]  * USA leaves DST
[21:30] <MootBot> New Topic:   * USA leaves DST
[21:30] <james_w> plus I think they are interface warts, so I'm not pleased about inheriting them
[21:31] <barry> it would be best if users didn't need to worry about them at all, but i don't know if that's possible
[21:31] <james_w> indeed
[21:31] <barry> i mention the dst thing because the meeting will be an hour earlier local time for me.  it's still fine, but i wanted to give folks a chance to chime in if the current 2100 utc meeting time has become inconvenient for them
[21:31] <james_w> it still works for me
[21:32] <slangasek> fine for me
[21:32] <james_w> and this time is better for our antipodean friends
[21:32] <barry> cool.  no change necessary then
[21:33] <barry> [TOPIC]  * Pushing changes to Debian (python-cheetah use case)
[21:33] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Pushing changes to Debian (python-cheetah use case)
[21:33] <barry> i bring this up because it's something i'm thinking about now and it's a use case we should address
[21:33] <barry> but we don't need to solve it here
[21:34] <barry> basically: i fixed python-cheetah in the ubuntu source branch but we really should get the changes into debian.  i don't know that udd has a good story for that yet
[21:34] <james_w> something like submittodebian?
[21:34] <barry> james_w: something like that, yeah.  there is bug reporting via email involved
[21:35] <barry> reportbug on ubuntu does not make debian developers happy
[21:35] <james_w> shouldn't be too hard to generate the diff
[21:35] <james_w> emailing is perhaps a trickier fish, though perhaps we just modify and rely on submittodebian
[21:35] <slangasek> you mean we can't just push to lp:debian/$package and have Debian build from branch? <g,d,r>
[21:36] <barry> slangasek: :-D
[21:36] <barry> james_w: oh.  submittodebian(1)  \o/
[21:36] <james_w> heh
[21:37] <barry> james_w: looks very interesting, and i'll give that a try with python-cheetah
[21:37] <jelmer> a "bzr submittodebian" that takes into account common ancestors etc might be nice
[21:37] <persia> Might be nice to have three stories: 1) pushing a change to the BTS, 2) committing a change to Vcs-*, 3) push to lp:debian/foo and upload package
[21:38] <barry> would pushing to lp:debian/foo get clobbered when the change lands in debian and gets imported back into launchpad?
[21:38] <persia> Wouldn't that have the same handling as when folk push to lp:ubuntu/foo and then upload now?
[21:38] <slangasek> jelmer: I did hack submittodebian a while back to notice when it was on a bzr branch and attempt to DTRT
[21:39] <slangasek> could stand to be improved some, yes
[21:39] <jelmer> slangasek: ah, that's probably even nicer than adding yet another (sub)command.
[21:40] <barry> otoh having it as a subcommand makes it more discoverable perhaps
[21:40] <jelmer> persia: supporting push to lp:debian/foo would require us to have a Debian build environment on Launchpad
[21:41] <jelmer> persia: support push to lp:debian/foo and build, that is
[21:41] <james_w> well, in some sense push as well right now
[21:42] <james_w> ACL are tied to upload rights
[21:43] <james_w> unfortunately I have to leave now, sorry
[21:43] <james_w> thanks everyone
[21:43] <jelmer> Thanks James
[21:43]  * slangasek waves
[21:43] <barry> that was very helpful, thanks.  i'll add my experience to the wiki and file a bug for a new feature
[21:43] <barry> thanks james_w
[21:44] <barry> we're basically done anyway
[21:44] <barry> [TOPIC] AOB
[21:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[21:44] <barry> do you have anything else not on the agenda?
[21:45] <persia> jelmer, I meant the build to be done on the local machine where the developer has the necessary key to upload to Debian: I doubt any DDs would trust those to LP.
[21:45] <jelmer> persia: Ah, ok
[21:45] <jelmer> persia: Yeah, I wouldn't trust them to /any/ remote machine.
[21:46] <persia> For some definition of remote.  I know several who don't trust them to laptops, and use debsign -r against trusted machines that may not be local (but are housed in a trusted environment)
[21:47] <persia> (or debrsign, depending)
[21:47] <barry> anything else for today?
[21:48] <barry> #endmeeting
[21:48] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:48.
[21:48] <barry> thanks everyone.  see you in two weeks
[21:49] <slangasek> thanks!
[21:50] <ajmitch> thanks