[00:01] <Riddell> ulysses: kdesvn uploaded!
[00:01] <Riddell> your ninja powers continue to grow
[00:01] <Riddell> ulysses: please send the patch to the kdesvn upstream author
[00:08] <Riddell> ** testers needed for 4.5.3 on 10.10 https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/staging
[00:10] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: I'll test when I get get home from date night with the wife tonight.
[00:10] <Riddell> ooh, DarkwingDuck has a date
[00:10] <Riddell> let us know if you get a snog at the end
[00:10] <DarkwingDuck> Riddell: :D
[00:10] <DarkwingDuck> hehehe
[00:10] <ScottK> DarkwingDuck: I'd suggest that after a night out with one's wife, having testing software be on the TODO is some kind of a priority inversion.
[00:11] <DarkwingDuck> ScottK: Nope, because she has some Unity testing to do :P
[00:11] <ScottK> OK.  That's double fail then, not a win.
[00:11] <DarkwingDuck> LOL
[00:12] <DarkwingDuck> I can't get her to use Kubuntu...
[00:12] <DarkwingDuck> She is a stubborn one.
[00:12] <ScottK> It's fine.
[00:12] <ScottK> People should use what they prefer.
[00:12] <DarkwingDuck> Agreed
[00:12] <DarkwingDuck> Although, it was kinda cool today
[00:12] <DarkwingDuck> The manager at Frys let me boot a Live USB onto the Lenovo IdeaPad today
[00:13] <ScottK> Nice.
[00:13] <ScottK> Although fundamentally if they work at Frys they're insane anyway.
[00:13] <DarkwingDuck> I was kinda surprised. Everything worked out of the box and it has multi-touch support so... Around Christmas when i buy it I'll be able to test multi-touch software for KDE
[00:33] <e_t_> Riddell: I'm interested.
[00:34] <Riddell> e_t_: they're here https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/staging
[00:35] <e_t_> The repo marked "DON'T USE"?
[00:36] <Riddell> e_t_: it's marked don't use because nobody has tested it yet
[00:36] <Riddell> we need testers like yourself to test it then we can move it to the release PPA
[00:38] <e_t_> I was kidding.
[00:39] <e_t_> On a serious note, aptitude safe-upgrade shows 293 upgrades and 32 not upgraded.
[00:40] <Riddell> I don't think safe-upgrade is what you want
[00:40] <e_t_> Will it break?
[00:42] <Riddell> no but there's a renamed library
[00:42] <Riddell> and when I say "no" I mean, it works fine for me
[00:42] <e_t_> How about I do the safe-upgrade, see if that works, then full-upgrade?
[00:44] <Riddell> as you wish
[00:46] <ScottK> Just don't reboot in the middle.
[02:09] <Riddell> e_t_: how did you get on?
[02:13] <e_t_> The packages for safe-upgrade just finished downloading a few minutes ago. That all went fine. I feel some trepidation about proceeding with the full-upgrade because it will remove 193 packages.  Would I be able to add them back after?
[02:14] <Riddell> what will it remove?
[02:14] <claydoh> Riddell:  e_t_ I just upgraded (using the standard apt dist-upgrade) with no issues
[02:14] <Riddell> thanks claydoh 
[02:14] <claydoh> aptitiude can be too smart sometimes imo
[02:15] <e_t_> I confirm. Apt-get dist-upgrade doesn't remove anything.
[02:16] <e_t_> I've just gotten used to aptitude.
[02:17] <e_t_> Or rather, it removes libweather-ion4a in favor of libweather-ion5.
[02:18] <claydoh> e_t_: I have seen it only a few times, but sometimes aptitude offers some somewhat insane resolution at times :)
[02:18] <Riddell> that's expected
[02:19] <e_t_> Riddell: this is what aptitude wanted to do to me: http://pastebin.ca/1981212
[02:19]  * claydoh secretly plots to steal his wifes super shiny new smartphone and put kde mobile on it
[02:21] <rbelem> claydoh, what's the model of her phone?
[02:21] <claydoh> rbelem: samsung fascinate android 2.1
[02:22] <claydoh> it is our first wirless phone
[02:22] <rbelem> claydoh, hum... i'm not sure if kubuntu-mobile can run on it
[02:23] <e_t_> OK. It looks like Ark, KCalc, kdeplasma-addons, kwalletmanager, sweeper, and kdeutils are holding back kde-standard and kde-full.
[02:23] <claydoh> actualy we did have a motorola portfolio way back in the early '90's, but it had a corded handset :)
[02:23] <claydoh> rbelem:  s'ok,  I woulld end up dead, or worse if i play with it
[02:23] <rbelem> claydoh, do you know what is the processor?
[02:23]  * claydoh is jealous as he doesn't have one :(
[02:24] <e_t_> Nevermind. Refreshing the package cache fixed my last comment.
[02:25]  * claydoh contemplates adding an droid incredible to her service plan - it would probably be able to replace my laptop
[02:25] <rbelem> claydoh, i know that n900 is able to run
[02:25] <claydoh> rbelem: n900's don't come free w/contract  tho 
[02:26] <rbelem> :-(
[02:26] <e_t_> Riddell: I'm all upgraded now.
[02:27] <Riddell> e_t_: lovely
[02:28] <e_t_> Is the updated kdepim in 4.5.3?
[02:29] <claydoh> Riddell: only thing I see is the message indicator doesn't show kmail's icon or text, just a blank space
[02:29] <claydoh> no way to tell if it is upgrade related just yet
[02:30] <Riddell> claydoh: we don't have kmail turned on for message indicator by default
[02:30] <claydoh> e_t_: no, kdepim is not updated yet
[02:30] <Riddell> although if you already had it turned on it shouldn't change anything
[02:30] <Riddell> kubuntu.org/news/kde-sc-4.5.3
[02:30] <Riddell> but neither the message indicator nor kdepim are part of this upgrade so I doubt it's related
[02:30] <claydoh> I had it there before, the place for it is there, no text or icon there tho
[02:31] <e_t_> Someone on #kde suggested November 2 as the date for either a new beta or the release, so I wondered. I guess neither worked out.
[02:33] <claydoh> it's back  I shut down kontact and it is all good now
[02:38] <Riddell> ah, JontheEchidna, care to cast your critical eye over http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/kdevelop-pg-qt ?
[02:42] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: sure
[02:44] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: there appears to be a debian-changes-0.9.0-0ubuntu1, don't know if that was intended
[02:44] <JontheEchidna> looks fine otherwise
[02:45] <Riddell> hmm, good question
[02:45] <Riddell> I'll look at it in the morning
[02:45] <Riddell> thanks
[02:45] <JontheEchidna> you're welcome
[03:55] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: complain to lex ...
[03:58] <shadeslayer> something is broken
[03:58] <shadeslayer>  kdebase-bin : Depends: libkfile4 (>= 4:4.5.3) but 4:4.5.2a-0ubuntu1~ppa2 is to be installed
[03:58] <shadeslayer>                Depends: libkio5 (>= 4:4.5.3) but 4:4.5.2a-0ubuntu1~ppa2 is to be installed
[03:59] <shadeslayer> Riddell: ^
[04:04] <shadeslayer> ( upgrading from staging looks fine )
[04:04] <shadeslayer> i still see 4.5.2 packages :O
[07:21] <zegenie_> hmm, the 4.5.3 updates seems to bork stuff up here
[07:21] <zegenie_> wants to remove a lot of the base packages because of several missing dependencies
[07:33] <zegenie_> seems libkio5 and libkfile4 aren't upgradeabe
[07:33] <zegenie_> upgradable*
[07:33] <zegenie_> am I doing it wrong?
[08:00] <alvin> aptitude wants to upgrade 81 packages, install 1 new and remove 1. I didn't hit OK though.
[08:05] <alvin> apt-get wants this: 52 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 19 to remove and 15 not upgraded. KPackageKit only mentions 52 upgrades. (Why don't they do they same?). Anyway, it doesn't look like accepting the apt-get proposal will lead to a stable situation.
[08:32] <markey> is the 4.5.3 update safe? working well?
[08:32]  * markey heard about some issues
[08:43] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: I thought you did koffice?
[08:43] <apachelogger> ...
[08:43] <apachelogger> eitherway
[08:43] <apachelogger> clearly we did not discuss QA enough at UDS
[08:43] <apachelogger> -.-
[09:28] <hrw> moin
[09:29] <hrw> I see that libraries transition in kde land is done with 4.5.3 by return to old names
[09:35] <ulysses> Riddell: I opened a ticket in the bug tracker of kdesvn, but I can't see it now
[09:41] <hrw> ops. had kubuntu ppa enabled
[09:43] <hrw> btw - is there a page which lists which kde components are in which versions in natty?
[09:46] <apachelogger> nope
[09:46] <apachelogger> hrw: what do you mean by components?
[09:47] <hrw> kdebase 4.5.3-0 | kdelibs5 4.5.3-0 etc
[09:47] <hrw> apachelogger: kde source packages
[09:48] <apachelogger> hrw: all whatever kde4libs is (well, except for kdepim that one is stuck on 4.4.something)
[09:49] <hrw> thx
[09:49] <apachelogger> also excluding minor differences such as a/b/c... suffixes
[10:33] <nigelb> ahoy folks, just fyi bug 670788
[10:40] <geekosopher> anyone know about bug 670788 ?
[10:43] <al> i'd add the output of `aptitude -vs full-upgrade` to that bug report, just in case it isn't obvious what's missing from the ppa
[10:56] <ulysses> I installed ktechlab on Lucid, and didn't get bug 661580, can I close it?
[11:33] <Riddell> nigelb, geekosopher, al: kde4libs failed to copy over to the PPA.  Now copied and will be published in a minute.  Sorry for the hassle.
[11:35] <Riddell> ulysses: you should ask where kontrollerlab comes from, we don't have it in the archives
[11:48] <nigelb> Riddell: great, tks
[11:57] <ulysses> Riddell: kontrollerlab is a free AVR IDE, it comes from sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/kontrollerlab/
[12:08] <apachelogger> not bug on our end
[12:10] <ulysses> mark as invalid, and close? kontrollerlab last update was two years ago, for Gutsy… which is also abandoned
[12:10] <apachelogger> aye
[12:10] <apachelogger> invalid on launchpad eitherway
[12:14] <apachelogger> persia: should we create a proper spec for the address book thingy?
[12:16] <persia> I think specs are only useful if they help workflow.  So, if you think we need a good way to properly document requirements and concerns, or if you want to document work to be done, sure.  Otherwise, little point.
[12:17]  * persia has discovered that using specs to track fun projects ends up being more trouble than benefit
[12:21] <apachelogger> maybe an informal spec then. I really think we should at least write down requirements and concerns
[12:26]  * apachelogger wonders why some people need to use all animation features powerpoint got, in one single presentation... -.-
[12:30] <nigelb> apachelogger: trying to show 'advanced' powerpoint skillz ^-^
[12:35] <apachelogger> it is madness, I tell you
[12:40] <nigelb> apachelogger: the true sign of an expert is to use content rather than effects.  Its too distracting.
[12:43]  * apachelogger just wants pictures of kittens
[12:44] <nigelb> moar distracting :p
[12:55] <Riddell> rbelem: going to http://community.kde.org/KDE_e.V./Sprints/KDEMobile-2010 ?
[12:56] <geekosopher> Riddell: PPA again cool as always, thanks! :)
[12:56] <Riddell> geekosopher: thanks for testing.  sorry about the mess up
[12:57] <rbelem> Riddell, i dont know, but i would to go :-)
[12:57] <geekosopher> Riddell: what should the guys do who got their systems fried up? would the normal apt-get upgrade work?
[12:58] <Riddell> geekosopher: sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
[12:58]  * geekosopher thinks 'fried up' was an exaggreration
[12:58] <rbelem> Riddell, do you know if is there sponsorship?
[12:58] <geekosopher> Riddell: ok, thanks again :)
[12:58] <zegenie_> "fried up" is a perfectly good term for people that are lost when they're dropped to the shell and not inside X anymore
[12:59] <geekosopher> zegenie_: hehe
[13:00] <zegenie_> I would be fine, but several of my shell-impaired coworkers would scream and reinstall immediately ;)
[13:00] <Riddell> rbelem: you can ask KDE e.V.
[13:02] <rbelem> Riddell, hum... i just notice that the date is closer to my baby birth :-)
[13:02] <Riddell> rbelem: bring the baby with you!
[13:03] <rbelem> eheheh
[13:03] <rbelem> Riddell, but he is still inside his mother belly
[13:03] <rbelem> :-D
[13:04] <Riddell> even better, you won't need to pay for an extra seat on the aeroplane
[13:05] <rbelem> Riddell, :-D
[13:07] <rbelem> Riddell, i discovered why kubuntu-mobile was so slow on n900
[13:08] <Riddell> oh?
[13:08] <rbelem> Riddell, i was using an micro sd class 2, the most slow :-(
[13:08] <Riddell> ah
[13:09] <rbelem> I just bought a class 10 for ebay
[13:09]  * rbelem needs to wait half month until it arrives :-(
[13:18] <apachelogger> oh dear
[13:18] <apachelogger> I want mobile!!!
[13:18] <apachelogger> on that note, I find netbook way too slow too
[13:19] <rbelem> apachelogger, on that arm netbook?
[13:19] <apachelogger> nah, on a regular netbook
[13:19] <apachelogger> or maybe in general even
[13:19] <apachelogger> KDE IS TOO FAT!
[13:20]  * apachelogger blames it all on mysql though
[13:20] <apachelogger> anyhow -> break
[13:20] <apachelogger> interesting
[13:20] <apachelogger> my lock widget thing does not work
[13:20]  * apachelogger finds that supremely interesting and shall investigate later on
[13:21] <rbelem> apachelogger, yup! akonadi and nepomuk are performance killers :-(
[13:22] <rbelem> apachelogger, i had to remove them to get kubuntu-mobile usable
[13:22] <rbelem> even my desktop
[13:23] <rbelem> apachelogger, we need to check the KDEDIRS loading time too
[13:24] <rbelem> apachelogger, Riddell, ScottK, http://ervin.ipsquad.net/2010/11/04/kde-platform-profiles-help-me-help-you/
[13:28] <Riddell> rbelem: interesting
[13:33] <_Groo_> hi/2 all
[13:33] <_Groo_> is jonathan around?
[13:34] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: ping
[13:39] <_Groo_> kdeutils is missing in action the kubuntu-ppa, is it  being uploaded?
[13:42] <Riddell> _Groo_: let me check
[13:43] <_Groo_> Riddell: k tks :)
[13:44] <_Groo_> kdemultimedia, utils, network and plasma-addons to be correct i believe are missing
[13:44] <_Groo_> kdepimlibs too
[13:47] <rbelem> Riddell, how could we avoid these profiles? I think that it would be nice if we book a chat with him and discuss this
[13:53] <Riddell> rbelem: why avoid?
[13:54] <rbelem> Riddell, because we have to had many different build for kdelibs
[13:56] <Riddell> well we avoid it by not using it
[13:56] <Riddell> the question is if we want to make it available for people who do want to use it
[13:56] <Riddell> in which case we'd have to work out how to build kdelibs twice
[13:57] <persia> Well, also, what sort of issues will be encountered if many applications decide to use it?  What essential functions are lost?
[13:59] <Riddell> it just removes depreated parts of the APIs, so they'll either not compile and need a bit of porting or they'll work fine
[13:59] <rbelem> Riddell, it would be much better to have kdelibs built with mobile profile for kubuntu-mobile, but is there a way to have this benefit without need another build of the kdelibs?
[13:59] <Riddell> rbelem: it will need another build of kdelibs
[13:59] <rbelem> persia, that's a good point
[14:01] <rbelem> Riddell, do you think it is ok have kdelibs and kdelibs-mobile? if you are ok with this i think that we do not need to discuss this futher :-)
[14:02] <rbelem> persia, that is the point that ervin talks about in his blog post
[14:02] <Riddell> rbelem: ideally we would have one source package kde4libs which builds twice and produces two of each binary package
[14:02] <rbelem> persia, http://ervin.ipsquad.net/2010/11/04/kde-platform-profiles-help-me-help-you/
[14:02] <Riddell> that requires some fancy debian/rules though
[14:03] <rbelem> Riddell, will we have libs with same name? maybe we need to take a look on that
[14:05] <Riddell> the binary packages will be libkio5-mobile or similar
[14:06] <rbelem> cool
[14:06] <rbelem> Riddell, will them conflict between themselves?
[14:06] <Riddell> yes, or maybe install into a different prefix
[14:09] <rbelem> Riddell, i think that install on different prefixes are better, so we will not lose some software 
[14:16] <Riddell> _Groo_: fixed now, sorry for the hassle
[14:17] <_Groo_> Riddell: no hassle :D i know you guys have tons of things to do
[14:25] <_Groo_> Riddell: btw someone needs to fix the kwebkit control file, its still broken
[14:26] <_Groo_> Riddell: its missing a ~ and cant install correctly with latest kde
[14:26] <_Groo_> not kwebkit per se, but the -dev part
[14:27] <Riddell> _Groo_: debdiffs welcome :)
[14:28] <_Groo_> Riddell: for a ~ change? :D
[14:29] <_Groo_> Riddell: let me see exactly wheres the issue
[14:40] <Riddell> maco: do you have the bug number for the qt file dialogue on gnome issue?
[14:44] <sheytan_> Riddell hey
[14:44] <sheytan_> Riddell i'm sorry, i can't write that page today :(
[14:44] <sheytan_> maybe someone else could?
[14:45] <Riddell> sheytan: no rush
[14:46] <sheytan> Riddell, k, if not me, i'll find someone :)
[14:46] <sheytan> Riddell, btw there's a untrusted package when try to upgrade to 4.5.3. Is that known?
[14:47] <Riddell> you probably haven't imported the PPA key?
[14:48] <sheytan> Riddell Launchpad Kubuntu updates?
[14:48] <sheytan> name of the key
[14:49] <Riddell> yes
[14:50] <sheytan> Riddell i've got that one
[14:55] <sheytan> Riddell i readded the ppa with key and works now :)
[14:55] <sheytan> brb
[15:12] <Riddell> ScottK: no boost changes planned in natty?
[15:18] <Riddell> hello jcgs 
[15:20] <maco> Riddell: ummm.... i'll have to look for one. i saw it mentioned and debugged in a comment on mdz's blog
[15:23] <jcgs> hi Riddell, just came out of stand by, so wasn't expecting a greeting :)
[15:31] <apachelogger> ScottK: can you lock the netbooky?
[15:31]  * apachelogger has no krunner running -> no locking
[15:41] <ScottK> Riddell: No boost changes planned.
[15:42] <ScottK> apachelogger: What do you mean by lock?  Screen locking works.
[15:42] <apachelogger> odd, then maybe my system is the broken
[15:44] <Riddell> apachelogger: it does require krunner to be running I believe
[15:48] <maco> ScottK: ah, but does screen-UN-locking work?
[15:49] <ScottK> maco: AFAIK, yes.  I didn't re-set up my netbook since Martin got done playing with it at UDS, so I can't try it directly at the moment.
[15:49] <maco> i still dont know why 2 of my laptops are able to unlock and the other isnt
[15:50] <ScottK> Differential solar flare exposure.
[15:51] <apachelogger> Riddell: yes, but my system does not start krunner for some reason
[15:52] <ScottK> Quintasan: How is the python3 stuff coming for whichever package you were working on?
[15:53] <jussi> wrote several simple Java programs today \o/
[15:53] <apachelogger> :O
[15:54]  * apachelogger pokes jussi in the ear
[15:54] <ScottK> Isn't that a bit oxymoronic (simple and java)?
[15:54] <jussi> lolo
[15:54] <jussi> it was first "Intro to programming class"
[15:56] <jussi> if anyone sees darkwing duck, get him to grab me please?
[15:56] <\sh> s/java/python/ is simple
[15:56] <jussi> \sh: ssshhhh
[15:56] <jussi> Im just learning :)
[15:57] <apachelogger> s/python/ruby
[15:57] <\sh> jussi: I'm not a java pro too, but I can speak better java then some of our java devs ;)
[15:57] <jussi> hehe
[15:59] <\sh> anyways, I just implemented an asynchronous CA tool in python, with rabbitmq, pyopenssl and python-carrot now I still need to write asap my puppet worker, which will receive all created hostcerts and then I'm ready to rock...(dc)² is in it's alpha state rock
[16:00] <jussi> \sh: nice work!
[16:00] <shtylman> don't bring that weak java stuff in here :p
[16:01] <jussi> shtylman: its a stepping stone! be nice!
[16:02] <ScottK> shtylman wasn't being mean.  He was being accurate.
[16:02] <shtylman> :)
[16:04] <maco> so apparently this is fixed in 4.5 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/soprano/+bug/590088 ...how do you recommend the fixy commit be hunted down?
[16:18] <ScottK> maco: If it's fixed in 4.5, it's not a soprano bug.
[16:18] <maco> oh?
[16:18] <ScottK> Soprano isn't released as part of the KDE SC.
[16:19] <maco> was a new libsoprano released in the last 6 months?
[16:19] <ScottK> No idea, but that would be the first thing I'd check.
[16:39] <ScottK> What is this "10.10 Release Candidate" that's spoken of here: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-sc-4.5.3
[16:41] <Riddell> ScottK: fixed
[16:41] <ScottK> Riddell: Thanks.
[16:42] <apachelogger> OMGIH
[16:42] <apachelogger> startkde has the ugly code
[16:43] <apachelogger> also I should do my calculus homework
[16:43] <apachelogger> oh dear oh dear
[16:49] <apachelogger>   CDROM=`lshal | grep "storage.drive_type = 'cdrom'" | awk '{print $3}' | sed "s,',," | sed "s,',,"`
[16:49] <apachelogger> Riddell: something tells me the same could be done with solid
[16:49] <Riddell> isn't bash great?
[16:49] <apachelogger> ultimately also without awk and seddddddd
[16:49] <Riddell> startkde runs before kdelibs is loaded
[16:50] <ScottK> Since it's starting KDE ...
[16:50] <ScottK> (sound rimshot)
[16:50] <apachelogger> Riddell: at the time you do the check kdelibs is in memory already
[16:51] <apachelogger> unless the user turned off the splash screen that is
[16:51] <apachelogger> oh
[16:51] <apachelogger> kstartupconfig4 also loads it apparently
[16:51]  * apachelogger finds that odd though
[16:52] <Riddell> splash screen doesn't use kdelibs
[16:52] <apachelogger> Riddell: well, it certainly links against it...
[16:52] <Riddell> ldd /usr/bin/ksplashx | grep kde   says it doesn't
[16:53] <apachelogger> oddness
[16:53] <apachelogger> oh
[16:53] <apachelogger> ah
[16:53] <apachelogger> !
[16:53] <apachelogger> konsole on top konsole, aint no good
[16:53] <apachelogger> nevermind me
[16:54] <apachelogger> oh
[16:55] <apachelogger> here is a thought
[16:55] <apachelogger> Riddell: how about only detecting this once?
[16:55] <apachelogger> as it is the whole netbook if stuff will be executed at every start for no good reason
[16:59] <Riddell> apachelogger: yes that would be good
[16:59] <ScottK> And that may be why valorie's netbook was reverting to the shell she didn't want before it died.
[17:00] <Riddell> but you need to work out how to save that in the relevant autostart files
[17:16] <Riddell> hmm, debhelper has some new svg tool that requires valid xml namespaces
[17:16] <Riddell> this is going to be troublesome
[17:18] <shtylman> heh
[17:43] <apachelogger> ulysses: ping
[18:08] <apachelogger> # If the session should be locked from the start (locked autologin),
[18:08] <apachelogger> # lock now and do the rest of the KDE startup underneath the locker.
[18:08] <apachelogger> if test -n "$dl"; then
[18:08] <apachelogger>   kwrapper4 kscreenlocker --forcelock &
[18:08] <apachelogger> startkde is so full of crap!!!!!
[18:08] <apachelogger> no wonder kde startup takes a billion years!!!!
[18:09] <apachelogger> this is outragous
[18:11] <apachelogger> rbelem: from a purely scientific pov it would be interesting if a c or c++ version of startkde would be signifcantly faster
[18:11]  * apachelogger doubts it, though one never knows
[18:12] <shadeslayer> lol... locked startup
[18:12] <rbelem> apachelogger, let's try write one :-)
[18:22]  * apachelogger thinks that one could only optimize ksmserver and greater
[18:22] <apachelogger> startkde, even though an obvious target does not leave much space for improvement
[18:22] <ScottK> More important is what's started and in what order.
[18:24] <ScottK> apachelogger: I've got boot charts for my laptop going back as far as Jaunty if you want data.
[18:25] <apachelogger> oh
[18:25] <apachelogger> also bashism
[18:25] <apachelogger> \o/
[18:25] <apachelogger> slipped through review
[18:25] <apachelogger> ScottK: that would be cool, though bootchart only monitored until kdm I think
[18:25] <apachelogger> rbelem: in sh there is no ==
[18:25] <apachelogger> only =
[18:26] <apachelogger> which is either assignment or evaluation depending on context
[18:26] <rbelem> hunrum :-(
[18:30] <ScottK> apachelogger: Shows plenty of KDE stuff.  Here's the most recent http://kitterman.com/kubuntu/scott-laptop-maverick-20101030-2.png
[18:34] <ScottK> apachelogger: If you decide more such would be useful, let me know.
[18:35] <shtylman> bootchart!! woooo
[18:35] <apachelogger> real    0m2.058s
[18:35] <apachelogger> wow
[18:35] <apachelogger> that is only until it gets to ksmserver 
[18:35] <apachelogger> on a warm start!
[18:35] <ulysses> apachelogger: pong
[18:36] <shtylman> yes
[18:36] <shtylman> kde is slow
[18:36] <apachelogger> ulysses: oxygen nuno is looking for a minion ^^
[18:37] <ulysses> apachelogger: not today, I go out, and I have a task from Riddell to package UPnP Mediaserver KIOslave first
[18:38] <rbelem> apachelogger, try commenting the KDEDIRS 
[18:39] <apachelogger> that stuff is not kicking in for me
[18:39] <rbelem> apachelogger, or using just kubuntu-mobile or kubuntu-netbook default settings dir in the KDEDIRS
[18:40] <rbelem> apachelogger, who takes care of run KDEDIRS desktop files?
[18:40] <rbelem> do you know
[18:40] <rbelem> ?
[18:41] <apachelogger> uhm
[18:41] <apachelogger> uhmmmmmmm
[18:41] <apachelogger> LD_BIND_NOW=true /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/start_kdeinit_wrapper +kcminit_startup
[18:42] <apachelogger> that thing is almost only responsible for the 2 seconds time to ksmserver
[18:42] <apachelogger> before and after that only marginal time gets spent
[18:42] <apachelogger> rbelem: what desktop files?
[18:45] <rbelem> apachelogger, sorry. I did not mean desktop
[18:45] <rbelem> i mean confi files
[18:45] <rbelem> :-D
[18:46] <rbelem> apachelogger, /usr/share/kubuntu-default-settings/kde4-profile/default/share/config/
[18:46] <apachelogger> kcminit_startup makes about 0.3 seconds of the overall increase caused by that line
[18:47]  * apachelogger notes that the speedup from this better be worth the 1.5 seconds
[18:47] <apachelogger> rbelem: why would one run a config?
[18:48] <apachelogger> hihihi
[18:49] <apachelogger> 0.6 seconds to ksmserver :D
[18:53] <rbelem> apachelogger, by the KDEDIRS line?
[18:54] <apachelogger> rbelem: I am not following
[18:58] <apachelogger> hm
[18:58]  * apachelogger waves with fist
[18:58] <apachelogger> stupid akonadi
[19:01] <apachelogger> oh my god
[19:01] <apachelogger> 7 seconds to desktop
[19:01] <apachelogger> also I still should be doing calculus homework
[19:01] <apachelogger> oh my
[19:04] <sheytan> apachelogger hey :D
[19:04] <sheytan> apachelogger something that can make your wordpress wish a bit http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3125/ffheader.png :D
[19:06] <apachelogger> naeh
[19:06] <apachelogger> doesnt fit in :P
[19:06] <sheytan> apachelogger but it's pink :D
[19:06] <apachelogger> no
[19:06] <apachelogger> its aubergine
[19:06] <sheytan> Riddell page is almost done :)
[19:07] <rbelem> apachelogger, do you know why libqt4-multimedia is not in archives?
[19:08] <sheytan> apachelogger how about now http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3125/ffheader.png :D
[19:08] <apachelogger> rbelem: because it is crap
[19:08] <apachelogger> also it got renamed
[19:08] <apachelogger> and moved
[19:08] <apachelogger> breaking ABI, API and good manners all at once
[19:08] <rbelem> apachelogger, what is it called now?
[19:09] <apachelogger> brisbane knows how to piss off tao programmers right there
[19:09] <apachelogger> rbelem: something with multimediakit
[19:09] <apachelogger> !find multimediakit
[19:11] <sheytan> Riddell http://ryrych.pl/null/kubuntu/kubu.html
[19:12] <rbelem> apachelogger, but libqtmultimediakit1 is part of qtmobility
 rbelem: because it is crap
 also it got renamed
 and moved
[19:12] <apachelogger> that would be the moved part
[19:12] <apachelogger> the rnamed part would be multimedia -> multimediakit
[19:12] <rbelem> hahaha :-D
[19:12] <apachelogger> and the crap part is it being it
[19:13] <apachelogger> rbelem: what business do you have with this bugger?
[19:13] <apachelogger> sheytan: that looks funny in rekonq
[19:13] <rbelem> apachelogger, some stuff that i'm working on
[19:13] <apachelogger> also I greatly dislike the 64bit stuff being same size as 32bit
[19:13] <sheytan> apachelogger it's not done. those red lines (if you see them) are only to help :)
[19:14] <rbelem> @job
[19:14] <apachelogger> rbelem: use phonon!!!
[19:14] <apachelogger> sheytan: there is more funnyness about it
[19:14] <sheytan> apachelogger may i have a sshot? :D
[19:15] <rbelem> apachelogger, hum... i think i will start using it
[19:15] <rbelem> apachelogger, thx dude :-)
[19:16] <apachelogger> *nod*
[19:16] <apachelogger> markey: ^ phonon has a naming problem
[19:16] <markey> hm? :)
[19:16] <apachelogger> google qt multimedia
[19:16] <apachelogger> you get
[19:16] <apachelogger> QtMultimedia
[19:16] <rbelem> it would be better to say thx buddy :-)
[19:16] <markey> thx buddy!
[19:17] <apachelogger> sheytan: http://aplg.kollide.net/images/avatar/snapshot88.png
[19:25]  * persia vaguely remembers a discussion about coordination to migrate everyone to use Qt phonon and away from qtmultimedia: what happened to that?
[19:26] <apachelogger> written down in my notebook from hell, waiting on apachelogger to take action
[19:27] <persia> Ah, OK.  As long as it's not lost :)
[19:28] <apachelogger> yeah, good thing I wrote it down :D
[20:26] <ScottK> Riddell: Is libqyotoshared2 meant to be an empty package in the new kdebindings?
[20:41] <ryrych> hello
[20:41] <ryrych> here you go: http://ryrych.pl/null/kubuntu/index.html :D
[20:45] <ryrych> sheyta: it's been ages ;D
[20:47] <sheytan> ryrych oh :D come on, show the cool stuff :D
[20:47] <sheytan> Riddell ryrych've got something for you :D
[20:50]  * apachelogger thinks ksplashx is a monster straight from hell
[20:51] <sheytan> apachelogger why?
[20:51] <apachelogger> even without plasma, or akonadi, or krunner I get a minimum startup of 4.5 for kde
[20:52] <apachelogger> oh
[20:52] <apachelogger> I take that back
[20:52] <apachelogger> akonadi is started
[20:52] <apachelogger> not that I know why though
[20:52] <Kubuntiac> Hey guys, not sure, but there seemed to be a packaging problem with KDE 4.5.3 for me. My system wasn't starting after the update until I did multiple rounds of sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade && sudo apt-get install -f
[20:53] <apachelogger> ah, it is not
[20:53] <apachelogger> just had it hanging around in background
[20:53] <apachelogger> anyhow
[20:53] <apachelogger> 4.5 is quite longish
[20:56] <apachelogger> 3.4 without kwin
[20:56] <Kubuntiac> Is it worth filing this on the kubuntu-ppa?
[20:58] <sheytan> Kubuntiac you prropably did the upgrade to fast. I mean, you always need to wait some after the packages appear ;)
[20:58] <sheytan> For me the update was without problems
[20:58] <apachelogger> ^ that is QA fail
[20:58] <apachelogger> rbelem: unless I dream of a way to get rid of knotify4 I will surely not get below 3.4 seconds startup on my machine ^^
[20:59] <apachelogger> that means that roughly half the time of app starts is actually spent on doing stuff in kded, ksmserver and kdeinit
[21:00] <apachelogger> (note: I turned off all kded modules that are configurable && turned off session restoring && this was with data already in disk cache)
[21:02]  * apachelogger wishes he had a device with FD/SSD and slow cpu -.-
[21:04]  * apachelogger runs killall rekonq the 3rd time today
[21:06] <apachelogger> hm
[21:06] <apachelogger> add plasma ... goes up to 9.5 seconds :O
[21:06] <apachelogger> weird
[21:06] <apachelogger> oh dear
[21:06] <Kubuntiac> sheytan: /me is impatient :) I'd be running Kubentoo if I was smart enough (ie compiling *everything*)
[21:06] <apachelogger> also I am getting debug.... I hate it when I get debug... 
[21:07] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: can you please make kubuntu not debug into my terminal
[21:07] <shadeslayer> wha
[21:07] <shadeslayer> huh?
[21:07] <apachelogger> DEBUG OUTPUT!
[21:07] <shadeslayer> kdebugdialog? 
[21:07] <apachelogger> take a look at your .xsession-errors
[21:07] <apachelogger> even with kdebugdialog turned off !!!
[21:08] <apachelogger> i.e. coming from Qt and akonadi and libakonaid being all smart and overriding my decisions or something
[21:08] <shadeslayer> epic
[21:08] <apachelogger> also!
[21:08] <apachelogger> if we built without debug support we would surely have smaller debs
[21:08] <apachelogger> smaller binaries in general that is
[21:09] <shadeslayer> http://pastebin.com/TPtbtmFa
[21:09] <highvoltage> yay smaller debs
[21:09] <highvoltage> (especially since edubuntu pulls in pretty much all of kde at this point :) )
[21:09] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: there all sorts of crap, plz do something about it
[21:10] <apachelogger> highvoltage: someone was supposed to do something about that IIRC
[21:10] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: convert to gnome?
[21:10] <apachelogger> that is a workaround!
[21:11] <apachelogger> I hate workarounds
[21:11] <apachelogger> ...
[21:11] <shadeslayer> no idea then :P
[21:11] <highvoltage> apachelogger: yep! I heard that too :)
[21:11]  * shadeslayer is only good at workarounds
[21:20] <ScottK> highvoltage: I understand kdm is getting pulled in on Edubuntu installs.  If someone could give me the output of "aptitude why kdm" on such an install, that would help narrow it down.
[21:23] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: supposedly Qt wants to be built in release mode
[21:23] <shadeslayer> oh my
[21:23] <shadeslayer> apachelogger: IIRC doesnt that disable dbg symbols?
[21:23] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[21:24] <ScottK> We want the debug symbols so we can strip them.
[21:24] <shadeslayer> i think it does
[21:24] <shadeslayer> ^ exactly
[21:24] <apachelogger> I do not want fat code
[21:24] <apachelogger> erm
[21:24] <apachelogger> fat binaries
[21:25] <shadeslayer> we should have deb delta support then
[21:25] <apachelogger> ah
[21:25] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT
[21:25] <shadeslayer> what about it?
[21:25] <ScottK> apachelogger: real_ate has to KDM magic he'd like to discuss.
[21:25] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: fat binaries aint got nothing to do with delta
[21:26] <apachelogger> ScottK: magic and KDM sounds scary
[21:26] <apachelogger> real_ate: hi
[21:26] <ScottK> apachelogger: Sure.  What about KDM doesn't sound scary.
[21:26] <shadeslayer> hmm
[21:26] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: setting that apparently turns of qDebug
[21:26] <apachelogger> or so says the documentation
[21:26] <apachelogger> ScottK: true true
[21:26] <highvoltage> ScottK: I just talked to stgraber about it, we're going to conflict against it (and pretty much the rest of KDE) in the livdcd package so that it doesn't get pulled in at build time
[21:26] <shadeslayer> but then...
[21:26] <apachelogger> This function does nothing if QT_NO_DEBUG_OUTPUT was defined during compilation.
[21:27] <shadeslayer> what if we do want qDebug foo
[21:27] <highvoltage> ScottK: it wasn't just kdm, also an entire kde session :)
[21:27] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: then I do not care
[21:27] <ScottK> highvoltage: That would be a work around to the real problem.  We should see what the real problem is and fix it.
[21:27] <apachelogger> user profiles
[21:27] <apachelogger> did not say no nothing about having debug output
[21:27] <apachelogger> -> removed it can be
[21:27] <highvoltage> ScottK: ok
[21:27] <highvoltage> ScottK: I'll get that info for you
[21:28] <ScottK> highvoltage: That would also be good to know for other stuff you don't want pulled in.
[21:28] <real_ate> hi all... sorry i had some stuff to do 
[21:28] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: other option is silently shutting up all the stuff Qt is whining about
[21:28] <shadeslayer> hmm
[21:29]  * shadeslayer finds previoust option better now
[21:29] <ScottK> apachelogger: real_ate has a patch he's backported from trunk to make KDM and Gnome play nice together.  Maybe we could add it to our 4.5.3 packages?
[21:29]  * ScottK needs to go.
[21:29] <highvoltage> ScottK: I'll add the output to the bug report and poke you with the bug number tomorrow then :)
[21:29] <apachelogger> where is that patch?
[21:29] <ScottK> highvoltage: Sounds good.
[21:29]  * shadeslayer has mini headache
[21:29] <real_ate> apachelogger: I'll post it to the bug now 
[21:30] <real_ate> one second 
[21:30]  * real_ate is starting up his VM
[21:31] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: there is no other option
[21:31] <apachelogger> akonadi uses a crap load of qDebug calls
[21:31] <shadeslayer> fix upstream?
[21:31] <apachelogger> supposedly the verbose nepomuk stuff does too
[21:31] <apachelogger> shadeslayer: fix = ?
[21:31] <shadeslayer> lesser qDebug calls
[21:31] <apachelogger> lesser is not enough
[21:31] <apachelogger> also
[21:31] <apachelogger> what would you use instead?
[21:32] <shadeslayer> kDebug? :P
[21:32] <apachelogger> akonadi is largely not kde
[21:32] <apachelogger> neither is nepomuk
[21:32] <shadeslayer> ah ok
[21:32] <shadeslayer> Freedesktop thingie
[21:34] <apachelogger> we should just build without debug messages -.-
[21:35] <apachelogger> everything a piece of junk is writing as debug consumes disk space and consequently ram and consequently cpu and consequently will prevent your disk from sleeping because it needs to write crap to .xsession-errors
[21:37] <shadeslayer> night all
[21:37] <rbelem> apachelogger, how much time did you manage to lower?
[21:37] <rbelem> shadeslayer, g'night :-)
[21:38] <apachelogger> aha, now is he is hiding in his bed :P
[21:38] <apachelogger> rbelem: pre-ksmserver by almost 2 seconds
[21:38] <apachelogger> past is hard t say
[21:38] <apachelogger> becuase what I removed was all essential stuff :P
[21:38] <real_ate> apachelogger: I've attached the new patch to the bug: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=186198
[21:39] <apachelogger> though it turns out primarily plasma takes long
[21:40] <apachelogger> +    if (DMType == Dunno) {
[21:40] <apachelogger> kdm is epic ^^
[21:40] <DarkwingDuck> Hey guys
[21:40] <real_ate> apachelogger: :D
[21:40] <rbelem> heheh :-D
[21:41] <apachelogger> these whitespace changes are sick 
[21:41] <real_ate> I hate when that stuff happens
[21:41] <apachelogger> alrighty
[21:42] <real_ate> especially when I was discussing my fixes on #kde and they gave out to me for using a tab instead of spaces or something like that :P 
[21:42] <apachelogger> real_ate: please backport ossi's change in KDE SVN rather than that bugger
[21:42] <real_ate> apachelogger: I don't understand
[21:42] <real_ate> apachelogger: you mean clean up the whitespace stuff? 
[21:42] <apachelogger> http://websvn.kde.org/?revision=1186881&view=revision
[21:43] <apachelogger> use that as base, so no whitespace creeping appears
[21:43] <apachelogger> pretty much impossible to review with all the whitespace changes 
[21:44] <real_ate> apachelogger: i think you have it the opposite way round... ossi changed all that whitespace in revision 1186881
[21:45] <apachelogger> what?
[21:45] <apachelogger> real_ate: I am looking at http://bugsfiles.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=53143
[21:45] <apachelogger> which is impossible to read
[21:45] <apachelogger> oh oh oh
[21:45] <real_ate> apachelogger: yea.. ok 
[21:45] <real_ate> i'll just clean up the whitespace changes 
[21:45] <real_ate> so that they are not there anymore
[21:46]  * real_ate assumes thats what he should be doing
[21:46] <apachelogger> real_ate: you might want to tell ossi to replace the .call(QLatin1String("GetX11Display")) thingies with an interface proxy
[21:46] <apachelogger> IIRC call() will trigger an introspection on each call
[21:48] <real_ate> apachelogger: does that matter so much? this code is only called very seldomly
[21:49] <apachelogger> that is no excuse for being crappy code
[21:49] <apachelogger> not being called at all would be one, but then there would be the thing that the code would be pointless and should be removed ;)
[21:50] <apachelogger> anyhow, if you get me a patch without whitespaces I am sure we can arrange for inclusion in the 4.5.3 package
[21:52] <real_ate> apachelogger: i'll work on the patch without whitespaces and i'll send an email to ossi suggesting your improvements
[21:52] <real_ate> apachelogger: do you mind me refering to you when I do? just i don't really have the othority to suggest improvemtents when I don't really understand them :/
[21:57] <real_ate> apachelogger: i've attached a new patch with no whitespace changes 
[22:01] <apachelogger> real_ate: nevermind the mail
[22:01] <apachelogger> it seems they fixed the issue in Qt
[22:01] <apachelogger> or at least I cannot find it anymore
[22:01] <real_ate> :D
[22:01]  * real_ate deletes his draft
[22:02] <real_ate> apachelogger: so if this gets included in the 4.5.3 pachage does that mean it will be in LTS? 
[22:03] <apachelogger> since next LTS is 1.5 years away, yes
[22:03] <real_ate> well i meant as an update to 10.04
[22:03] <apachelogger> if 4.5.3 gets into 10.04
[22:03] <apachelogger> though
[22:03] <real_ate> oh hold on a sec... 
[22:04] <apachelogger> while the regression potential is very low, I would not feel comfortable putting that in via 4.5.3
[22:04] <apachelogger> considering ossi did not backport it to 4.5 either
[22:04] <real_ate> i guess you're right 
[22:05] <real_ate> apachelogger: i have requested that he look into backporting it to 4.5 
[22:05] <real_ate> ... if that happens would you feel more comfortable? 
[22:06] <apachelogger> yes
[22:06] <apachelogger> still the decision would be with the SRU team and/or the ubuntu tech board
[22:06] <apachelogger> we only only propose it
[22:07] <apachelogger> minus one only ^^
[22:08] <real_ate> apachelogger: i understand, and that is at least a good start ;) 
[22:13] <real_ate> apachelogger: is the fact that it wasn't backported to 4.5 a blocker for this patch being included? 
[22:13] <real_ate> i'm discussing it with the kde guys now 
[22:15] <real_ate> apachelogger: the long and short of it is that from a KDE point of view this is a new feature that was added 
[22:16] <real_ate> even though from a desktop point of view it is a bugfix or a regression fix 
[22:16] <real_ate> and it is KDE policy that new features can only be added to trunk and not backported 
[22:17] <apachelogger> well, for us it is a new feature too :P
[22:17] <apachelogger> which disqualifies it for updates really
[22:17] <apachelogger> not for PPA packages though
[22:17] <real_ate> apachelogger: really? I thought it was deemed to be a regression, that you can't say shutdown anymore when GDM is in control 
[22:18] <apachelogger> the issue is a regression
[22:18] <apachelogger> the fix for it is a feature
[22:18] <real_ate> :D
[22:18] <apachelogger> as it provides support for the new gdm system
[22:18] <real_ate> interesting... 
[22:18] <apachelogger> which is completely new
[22:18] <apachelogger> so from an impact POV it fixes the regression but it does so by means of introducing new functionality
[22:19] <real_ate> ... which is unfortunatly the only way to resolve the issue 
[22:19] <apachelogger> which is why I said it would be a call the SRU team or the tech board had to made, since it is arguable that resolving the regression outweighs the possibility of having introduced an issue with that patch
[22:23] <real_ate> apachelogger: so i suppose the next step is to "apply" to the SRU team? :/ i'm not really familiar with the system yet
[22:23] <apachelogger> !SRU
[22:24] <apachelogger> real_ate: well need a launchpad bug and actually the patch needs to be backported to 4.4
[22:24] <apachelogger> since 4.5 is currently not an update for 10.04
[22:24] <real_ate> actually hold on 
[22:24] <real_ate> i may have lead you up the garden path 
[22:25] <real_ate> ... I did a debdiff against what i got from apt-get sources and what what in trunk 
[22:25] <real_ate> so the one that fixed the issue
[22:25] <real_ate> so that must be a 4.4 backport then :/
[22:26] <real_ate> yea... that diff is for 4.4.2
[22:26] <real_ate> i'll update the bug report now
[22:26] <real_ate> sorry for the confusion 
[22:32] <real_ate> apachelogger: ok there is a bug already in there for it ( i couldn't find it before)
[22:32] <real_ate> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-workspace/+bug/459695
[22:35] <real_ate> apachelogger: I will try to updat the bug report with the details as I see them, I would appreciate your help with the "statement of impact" if you have time
[22:35] <apachelogger> sure, not today though
[22:35]  * apachelogger should go to bed soonish
[22:35] <apachelogger> I'll take a look at it tomorrow
[22:37] <real_ate> apachelogger: thanks for all your help btw :) 
[22:51] <apachelogger> real_ate: no problem
[23:52] <real_ate> apachelogger: i've updated that bug, i know you're away off to bed but i hope you get this ping in the morning 
[23:53] <real_ate> apachelogger: apparently i need to get you to nominate that bug, i'm a mere mortal and not worthy ;) 
[23:59] <persia> apachelogger, For context: Nominate was recently restricted to bug-control, and we weren't sure you had confirmed you wanted to process as SRU.