/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/04/#ubuntu-accessibility.txt

UndiFineDproudhawk, 00:11
UndiFineDIt has been 1 am00:11
UndiFineDand I like to go to bed00:11
UndiFineDbut I sure hope we will talk again00:11
Cheri703hello...04:42
proudhawkgreetz04:42
Cheri703so...2 things, one is that rww says you guys should update your meeting time :)04:43
Cheri703the other is something I'm sure someone has noted before, but I ran into it again tonight and it just seems so incredibly illogical when I encounter it04:43
proudhawkI'm not sure what meeting you are referencing.04:43
Cheri703in the room topic04:43
Cheri703 Next Team Meeting, September 15, 2010 21:00 UTC04:44
Cheri703the other is in reference to the on-screen keyboard04:45
proudhawkoh. ok. I am not part of the meetings yet. btw, I am a blind user here.04:45
Cheri703well, (as far as I can tell) there is no way to access the on-screen keyboard without using a keyboard04:46
Cheri703unless it has been pre-set to open at start04:46
Cheri703and once the on-screen keyboard is open, it is not accessible when needing to enter a password for administrative tasks. (again, perhaps it is, but not in a quick use case)04:47
proudhawkgive a couple of seconds between messages. it starts getting hard to hear 3 things at once04:47
Cheri703sorry04:47
proudhawkit happens.04:48
proudhawkan on screen keyboard needing admin access? thats funny04:48
Cheri703well, not the keyboard needing access04:48
proudhawkhmmmm04:48
Cheri703but if you wanted to open synaptic (or anything else needing admin privileges), you have to enter a password, this greys out all other programs INCLUDING the keyboard, so you're unable to enter password04:49
proudhawkoh brother. what desktop is this on?04:49
Cheri703I have experienced it on both ubuntu 10.04 and 10.1004:50
Cheri703especially the inability to open the keyboard without typing in some way (as far as I can tell)04:50
proudhawkooooh kay....  well, I haven't seen that yet. however, I have had no end of trouble getting orca to work on a powerbook G304:51
proudhawkI even have someone on skype acting as my eyes04:52
fuzzyvaderthats me04:52
fuzzyvader:)04:52
Cheri703:)04:52
fuzzyvaderhe's not gettting emoticons04:53
Cheri703smiley04:53
Cheri703colon right parentheses04:53
proudhawkoh04:53
proudhawkdon't worry about it04:53
Cheri703I may amuse myself by spelling out emoticons in the future semi colon capital p04:54
fuzzyvaderell oh ell04:54
Cheri703ha ha04:54
Cheri703proudhawk: have you heard about a tv show called "covert affairs"? there is a blind man on there that has a ridiculously unreasonable computer04:56
proudhawkROFL04:56
proudhawkrofl. its not that  unreasonable. I have one04:56
proudhawkits called a mac04:56
Cheri703has a braille bar that runs interactive and changing bumps so he can read info?04:56
proudhawkoh yah. tnats a 40 cell braille display unit. it can react in real time04:57
Cheri703wow, that's really cool! I didn't know that actually existed!04:57
proudhawkyes, it does. and its expensive as hell (about $6,000)04:58
Cheri703I would imagine04:58
Cheri703I don't know how one can help with the accessibility team other than coding, I'm not a programmer, but I'd be interested in helping in any way I can. I have deaf relatives, a brother with severe hearing loss, a friend who is very visually impaired, and I have helped with (and hope to train) service dogs for varying uses.04:59
fuzzyvaderskype seems to be a great addition for those than can't seen and those that are willing to help05:00
proudhawkwell, I am totally blind (about 4 months now). before I was a low partial (functional large print was abot it)05:01
fuzzyvaders/seen/see05:01
Cheri703fuzzyvader: do you just read along with the irc room? or what?05:03
fuzzyvadereh?05:04
fuzzyvaderI'm on skype with proudhawk and reading his screen to him05:04
fuzzyvaderand whatever messages he misses from here05:05
Cheri703ah, ok05:05
proudhawkwoot orca is working!05:05
Cheri703yay!05:06
proudhawkwell, thanks to <fuzzyvader> II was able to get a working 10.10 LTS orca configured and up and running. his eyes by skype and my fingers on the keyboard07:08
proudhawkorca works, but there were a couple of stutters. not sure why orca failed the 2 times, but everything is recovered07:09
UndiFineDgood morning07:18
proudhawkboo!07:18
proudhawkso? whats up?07:19
UndiFineDhey07:19
proudhawkgot speech working on the G#07:19
UndiFineDso you can "hear" us now07:19
proudhawkhehehe07:19
proudhawkyeah, I still need to install an irc client on there07:19
proudhawkbut espeak works now (using the 10.10 LTS version07:20
UndiFineDdo you prefer a CLI like client or GUI interface07:20
proudhawkthe gui works ok for my means. I can use cli anytime I want. but some thing like web browsing are a  bit limited07:21
UndiFineDCLI: irssi or BitchX are the ones I know07:21
UndiFineDGUI: xchat07:21
proudhawkhmmmm. let me see if that one is in the package repository07:21
UndiFineDbitchx is not07:21
proudhawkwhoa. something caused my G3 to freeze (again)07:22
UndiFineDI find orca failing on me from time to time07:23
UndiFineDas in, logging me out07:24
proudhawkwell, this was an ssh session installing a bunch of packages07:24
proudhawkI can tell that something is off. orca is supposed to start on startup and sometimes it doesn't07:28
UndiFineDand now it doesn't07:30
proudhawkactually it does. not sure what is going on. checking the logs now07:30
proudhawkits something on the system. it just went unresponsive with nothing running07:31
proudhawkwhoa. system load at 11.9407:34
UndiFineDsomething is going bad07:35
proudhawkudisks-daemon using 99% cpu07:35
UndiFineDudisk depends upon the system bus, which you also you for voice07:36
UndiFineDuse07:37
proudhawkwell, let me reboot that machine and see if it calms down07:37
proudhawkits behaving like there's a runaway process or a memory leak07:38
proudhawkeven sudo reboot is taking a very long time to respond07:39
UndiFineDyes, shutting down is taking longer than starting up, as it seems07:41
proudhawkit finally rebooted07:41
proudhawkI am wondering if the HD is going south07:41
proudhawkits the original for that device. its like 7 or 8 years old07:42
UndiFineDa replacement would be welcome then07:42
proudhawkproblem is, unless I can check the drive without the silly thing freezing up, I can't really know.07:43
UndiFineDdo you like the loco ?07:43
proudhawkhuh?07:43
UndiFineDthe people on #Ubuntu-US-AZ 07:44
proudhawkfound one that helped me via skype. he was my eyes and I did all the keyboarding. he's a linux newbie, but more than capable for what I needed07:45
UndiFineDgreat that it worked out07:45
UndiFineDI hope you will meet some of them in real life too07:46
proudhawksame here.07:46
proudhawkI even had hiim come into this chan to see who was around. he runs a computer shop in lake havasu city arizona07:46
proudhawkbtw, I figured out what it was, it seems the machine can't handle high levels of HD i/o before the disk deamon goes into overdrive07:47
proudhawknow all I have to do is learn the various shortcuts on orca and I am gtg07:48
UndiFineDthen I suspect it is logging too much07:48
proudhawkpossibly07:49
proudhawkchecking logs now07:49
proudhawkdammit, why do they always have to have apparmor running. that takes a lot of cpu and disk I/O07:51
proudhawklooks like pulseaudio is also having a few issues.07:53
proudhawkok, turned off a few of the startup applications. I may have to dig a little deeper to turn off some system services07:58
UndiFineDgah, and then i got logged out again07:59
proudhawkhmmm. is this on a mac or an intel/amd box?08:00
UndiFineDan 7 year old xeon08:00
proudhawkyou may want to check the logs for large number of repeated items.08:00
UndiFineDwith 2 new disks08:00
proudhawkhmmm. something else failing?08:01
UndiFineDyes pulseaudio08:02
proudhawkoh brother. that may take a bit of troubleshooting. I saw large numbers of repeated entries here for that one08:03
UndiFineDNov  4 08:59:15 head pulseaudio[13450]: pid.c: Stale PID file, overwriting.08:04
UndiFineDwhich only happens when i run orca08:04
proudhawkquestion; do you happen to be visually impaired? (I never really thought to ask)08:05
UndiFineDjust before that it says pulseaudio[7128]: ratelimit.c: 5151 events suppressed08:05
proudhawkuh....yeah08:05
UndiFineDno I just need a 12px font08:05
proudhawkah ok08:05
proudhawkthats a lot of events to have to surpress08:06
UndiFineDthere are several of those event messages before it dies08:06
proudhawkand when it dies, so does orca08:07
UndiFineDevery 5 seconds08:07
proudhawkthere's your problem. looks like pulseaudio has a bug08:07
UndiFineDif could find that bug and fix it, orca must be happier08:09
proudhawkNov  4 01:16:09 T72 pulseaudio[1168]: ratelimit.c: 43 events suppressed08:18
proudhawkNov  4 01:17:12 T72 pulseaudio[1168]: last message repeated 12 times08:18
proudhawkNov  4 01:18:12 T72 pulseaudio[1168]: last message repeated 12 times08:18
proudhawkmy log is filled with that08:18
UndiFineDI found the related bug with pulseaudio08:22
UndiFineDbut they passed it on to dbus08:22
proudhawkdo tell08:22
proudhawkfigures08:23
UndiFineDhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/43443608:23
ubot2Launchpad bug 434436 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "pulseaudio: sudden crashes while watching video clips or listening to songs (affects: 52) (dups: 1) (heat: 235)" [Undecided,Confirmed]08:23
UndiFineDi am not sure, but i found something that may fix it08:29
proudhawkok, do tell08:29
UndiFineDok, that did not work08:33
proudhawkwhat did you try?08:34
UndiFineDln -s /bin/dbus-launch /usr/bin/dbus-launch08:35
UndiFineDhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/58299908:35
ubot2Launchpad bug 582999 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "main.c: Unable to contact D-Bus: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spa wn.ExecFailed: /bin/dbus-launch terminated abnormally with the following error: Autolaunch error: X11 in itialization failed (affects: 1) (heat: 20)" [Undecided,New]08:35
proudhawkwell, its time I hit the sack. I'll probably be back on tomorrow night (after my tandem bike ride)08:37
UndiFineDofcourse I had not been logged out after the crash08:39
proudhawkbefore I go, I need to test my autojoin options.08:40
UndiFineD:)08:40
UndiFineDseems to work here08:42
proudhawkok, it took me a moment, but I got the autojoin figured out08:43
UndiFineDenjoy your sleep and ofcourse the tandem ride08:43
proudhawkoh yeah. especially that. I've been wanting to ride for a long time08:44
UndiFineDgreat08:45
proudhawkwell, good night.08:45
UndiFineDsee you soon then :)08:45
Pendulumcharlie-tca: hey, are you possibly going to put your install guide on a wiki page?15:58
charlie-tcadid16:03
Pendulumawesome :)16:04
charlie-tcahttps://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide16:04
charlie-tcais the basic procedure. The entire procedure will become the TestCase for QA testing16:05
lazarus_how can i help17:50
AlanBelllazarus_: hi17:58
lazarus_AlanBell, hi17:58
AlanBellwhat did you have in mind?17:58
lazarus_i have no idea17:59
AlanBell:)17:59
Pendulumlazarus_: what are you interested in with regards to accessibility?17:59
AlanBellok, so hanging out in the channel is helpful in itself17:59
AlanBellthere are often people asking questions about navigation around Ubuntu with keyboard and screenreader18:00
AlanBellalso join the mailing list18:00
AlanBelland look around the wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility 18:01
lazarus_well my eyes are sensitive to colours but to chang that you need to edit themes sepratley there needs  to be in my mind one configure tool across  the whole system ifthat makes any sense18:01
AlanBellthere is a compiz colour filter plugin18:02
AlanBellwhich can be used to simulate colour blindness and presumably compensate for it (although there are no filters aiming to do that right now)18:03
lazarus_hmm18:05
lazarus_trying to think of other things18:15
AlanBelllazarus_: the next team meeting will be discussing some items that arose from the Ubuntu Developer Summit18:43
AlanBellPendulum: when is the next meeting?18:43
Pendulumnext week18:43
* Pendulum starts drafting that e-mail...18:43
AlanBell and /topic18:43
lazarus_i will be about18:45
charlie-tcalazarus_: how are you with the wiki?18:54
lazarus_charlie-tca, im not sure i understand what your asking18:55
charlie-tcaHave you ever done any updates or anything ? We have 82 pages in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility to review and update.18:56
lazarus_i can try and help 18:57
charlie-tcagreat! We need to update references to Gnopernicus. That is no longer used, instead we use Orca18:58
charlie-tcaWe need to verify the references are still valid, some have become obsolete18:58
lazarus_i am sorta new to all of this18:59
charlie-tcaand we need to review/proof read the text and make grammar and spelling corrections18:59
charlie-tcaA guide to get started is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.19:00
charlie-tcaIf you have questions, feel free to ask here. 19:00
charlie-tcaWe do not use the tags they have there, but other than that, editing should be pretty much under those guidelines19:01
lazarus_charlie-tca, why does the wiki use the old style ubuntu colours?19:07
charlie-tcahmm, Most of that wiki does. wiki.ubuntu.com is the developers wiki, so it gets updated last, normally.19:08
AlanBellif you log in to the wiki and go to your preferences you can select the light theme19:08
AlanBellthat is the new wiki theme which is not yet released as the default, but it will be19:08
AlanBellhopefully after they finish fixing it19:09
charlie-tcaAlanBell: Is there a bug to get a high-contrast theme for the wiki?19:11
charlie-tcaI talked to several developers and website people that were surprised to find out there was no theme suitable for high contrast.19:12
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I think there may be a work item on it19:13
AlanBellwell I was doing a load of help on the light theme on the basis that they would install an accessible theme along with it19:13
AlanBellbug 65464319:14
ubot2Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 7)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/65464319:14
charlie-tcaOkay, I will sit tight for a while more. If we don't get one though, we will have to keep pushing.19:14
Pendulumyep. czajkowski has an action item about it19:15
AlanBellhttp://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente is the theme I want them to install19:15
charlie-tcaThat would be good!19:16
AlanBelldon't think there is a bug related to that though19:18
AlanBelljust some slightly stroppy emails19:18
AlanBelltrouble is with the wiki is that things end up going as rt requests which get routed to /dev/null19:20
AlanBellwe should have a little project to review bugs all over the place, tag them a11y and boost the priority as per the new rules19:23
charlie-tcaI agree. Of course, I can only do importance on the Ubuntu bugs. All those little side projects are separate19:24
charlie-tcaBut anything I find is getting the a11y tag added19:25
charlie-tcaI did review all the bugs in Ubuntu tagged accessibility. Triaged some, tagged all19:25
PendulumAlanBell: UndiFineD were you the two who looked at askubuntu.com using orca and confirmed it's inaccessibility?19:26
AlanBellbug 67112219:30
ubot2Launchpad bug 671122 in ubuntu-website "install an accessible wiki theme (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/67112219:30
AlanBellPendulum: actually I am not entirely sure that askubuntu.com is inaccessible19:31
PendulumI thought someone tested it?19:31
AlanBellhttp://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/68898/how-accessible-are-the-stack-exchange-sites-for-users-of-screen-reader-software19:36
AlanBellI don't really know how to properly test it with orca19:38
charlie-tcaThanks, AlanBell 19:41
charlie-tcaI thought it was accessible in firefox?19:42
PendulumI've commented back to Jared asking him to test.19:42
PendulumI really thought UndiFineD looked during UDS and it broke using orca for him19:42
UndiFineDOrca fails for me from time to time, several websites do not make text audiable, today i found that orca skips audio, passes empty data to pulse, which passes it on to alsa, which causes an issue in dbus19:55
UndiFineDI have not checked it for use with askubuntu.com19:55
Pendulumah, okay20:25
PendulumUndiFineD: are you willing to check?20:25
Pendulumalso, please file bugs on your problems if you aren't already doing so!20:26
UndiFineDat this time .. no, orca makes me log out20:26
Pendulumah, okay20:26
UndiFineDthis is a bug , already reported by someone else20:26
Pendulum*nods*20:26
UndiFineDbut some website choose to protect their content by an overlay, these are especially hard20:27
Pendulumyeah20:28
Pendulumfrom what I can tell, the link about accessibility says essentially that one needs to run a script every time they're on stack exchange to make screen readers read it correctly20:28
UndiFineDyou find them for example on groundbreaking scientific reports20:28
Pendulum*nods*20:28
UndiFineDwhere you *should* buy the content20:29
Pendulumbtw, I apologize for any incoherency I'm ill (I also apologize if I don't remember any of this tomorrow)20:29
UndiFineDwhat happened to you ?20:30
PendulumI went to UDS and caught ubuflu20:31
UndiFineDlol20:31
Pendulumso I'm curled up on the couch with liquids and snacks and brainless stuff to watch and do20:31
UndiFineDyes that what you get from flying20:31
Pendulumnah, it wasn't flying. it was definitely UDS20:32
Pendulumit started monday/tuesday-ish20:32
UndiFineDyes but many others were20:32
Pendulumheh20:32
Pendulumwell, I did fly to UDS. just symptoms were long enough afterwards that I know I didn't catch it on the way there20:32
Pendulumit is what happens when you stick 350 people from various parts of the world in one area, though, yes20:32
UndiFineDI hope I will be able to go to bucharest20:33
Pendulumyou mean budapest?20:33
UndiFineDand get sick too20:33
UndiFineDyes20:34
Pendulumheh20:34
PendulumI hope to make it to budapest as well :)20:34
PendulumI didn't get this sick last UDS20:34
UndiFineDi can choose, by train or plane20:34
UndiFineDboth equally exspensive20:34
PendulumI think I had more stress during this one20:34
Pendulumnice20:34
PendulumI wish I could have taken the train to this one, but it would have been 3x as expensive and 24+ hours on the train in a wheelchair :-/20:35
UndiFineDoh your in a wheelchair, yes, such a train trip through europe is quite nearly impossible20:37
UndiFineDtrain aisles are too small, doors can be too small20:37
Pendulumwhere I've been in europe train travel hasn't bee a problem20:37
UndiFineDand the incredible number of stairways you encounter20:37
PendulumUndiFineD: where in europe are you?20:38
UndiFineDthe netherlands20:38
Pendulumactually, my experience with Dutch trains has been quite good :)20:38
Pendulum(I am in love with the city of Amsterdam and want to see more of the Netherlands :) )20:39
UndiFineDnot all of them are good, and wheelchair help usually has to be ordered 2 days in advance20:39
PendulumI've done it both ways20:40
UndiFineDI lived in amsterdam, the citty is too crowded, i went back to the countryside up north in friesland20:40
Pendulumalthough I suspect when I just show up the fact that I'm an American tourist probably helps20:40
PendulumI've lived in NYC. Nothing seems crowded after that ;-)20:41
UndiFineDheh, queensday is madness in amsterdam, you can walk on heads20:42
dutchietourism is worse when you are one of the tourist attractions20:45
UndiFineDyes you are dutchie 20:45
dutchieand when you live/work inside tourist attractions20:45
UndiFineD:D20:45
UndiFineDI think dutchie is afraid to cross the channel20:47
dutchieeh?20:47
UndiFineDso many people are waiting for Mr holland20:47
dutchienot sure if i could live up to that :)20:48
UndiFineDsee I am right20:48
dutchiei have spent a week in .nl before20:48
dutchiethe jokes began to get old after ~2 hours20:48
JanC<Pendulum> I didn't get this sick last UDS --> Belgium must be a less dangerous place than Florida  ;)21:18
PendulumJanC: but Florida is warmer.21:19
PendulumI partially blame the rainstorm that my wheelchair broke during the middle of on Tuesday21:19
JanCwheelchair broke?21:21
Pendulumyeah21:25
Pendulumfixed within 30 minutes21:25
Pendulumbut it meant I got really thuroughly soaked21:25
Pendulumand didn't get anywhere that I could get dry for several hours21:25
JanCyeah, that's always bad to get sick21:27
JanCBTW: I upvoted the meta.se question too21:27
Pendulumthanks :)21:27
JanCevery SE site I register on, I get 100 points for free because of linking the account to my other SE accounts, so I get upvoting rights automatically21:29
Pendulum:)21:30
JanC(might be a good trick for those who need more rep)21:30

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