[00:11] <UndiFineD> proudhawk, 
[00:11] <UndiFineD> It has been 1 am
[00:11] <UndiFineD> and I like to go to bed
[00:11] <UndiFineD> but I sure hope we will talk again
[04:42] <Cheri703> hello...
[04:42] <proudhawk> greetz
[04:43] <Cheri703> so...2 things, one is that rww says you guys should update your meeting time :)
[04:43] <Cheri703> the other is something I'm sure someone has noted before, but I ran into it again tonight and it just seems so incredibly illogical when I encounter it
[04:43] <proudhawk> I'm not sure what meeting you are referencing.
[04:43] <Cheri703> in the room topic
[04:44] <Cheri703>  Next Team Meeting, September 15, 2010 21:00 UTC
[04:45] <Cheri703> the other is in reference to the on-screen keyboard
[04:45] <proudhawk> oh. ok. I am not part of the meetings yet. btw, I am a blind user here.
[04:46] <Cheri703> well, (as far as I can tell) there is no way to access the on-screen keyboard without using a keyboard
[04:46] <Cheri703> unless it has been pre-set to open at start
[04:47] <Cheri703> and once the on-screen keyboard is open, it is not accessible when needing to enter a password for administrative tasks. (again, perhaps it is, but not in a quick use case)
[04:47] <proudhawk> give a couple of seconds between messages. it starts getting hard to hear 3 things at once
[04:47] <Cheri703> sorry
[04:48] <proudhawk> it happens.
[04:48] <proudhawk> an on screen keyboard needing admin access? thats funny
[04:48] <Cheri703> well, not the keyboard needing access
[04:48] <proudhawk> hmmmm
[04:49] <Cheri703> but if you wanted to open synaptic (or anything else needing admin privileges), you have to enter a password, this greys out all other programs INCLUDING the keyboard, so you're unable to enter password
[04:49] <proudhawk> oh brother. what desktop is this on?
[04:50] <Cheri703> I have experienced it on both ubuntu 10.04 and 10.10
[04:50] <Cheri703> especially the inability to open the keyboard without typing in some way (as far as I can tell)
[04:51] <proudhawk> ooooh kay....  well, I haven't seen that yet. however, I have had no end of trouble getting orca to work on a powerbook G3
[04:52] <proudhawk> I even have someone on skype acting as my eyes
[04:52] <fuzzyvader> thats me
[04:52] <fuzzyvader> :)
[04:52] <Cheri703> :)
[04:53] <fuzzyvader> he's not gettting emoticons
[04:53] <Cheri703> smiley
[04:53] <Cheri703> colon right parentheses
[04:53] <proudhawk> oh
[04:53] <proudhawk> don't worry about it
[04:54] <Cheri703> I may amuse myself by spelling out emoticons in the future semi colon capital p
[04:54] <fuzzyvader> ell oh ell
[04:54] <Cheri703> ha ha
[04:56] <Cheri703> proudhawk: have you heard about a tv show called "covert affairs"? there is a blind man on there that has a ridiculously unreasonable computer
[04:56] <proudhawk> ROFL
[04:56] <proudhawk> rofl. its not that  unreasonable. I have one
[04:56] <proudhawk> its called a mac
[04:56] <Cheri703> has a braille bar that runs interactive and changing bumps so he can read info?
[04:57] <proudhawk> oh yah. tnats a 40 cell braille display unit. it can react in real time
[04:57] <Cheri703> wow, that's really cool! I didn't know that actually existed!
[04:58] <proudhawk> yes, it does. and its expensive as hell (about $6,000)
[04:58] <Cheri703> I would imagine
[04:59] <Cheri703> I don't know how one can help with the accessibility team other than coding, I'm not a programmer, but I'd be interested in helping in any way I can. I have deaf relatives, a brother with severe hearing loss, a friend who is very visually impaired, and I have helped with (and hope to train) service dogs for varying uses.
[05:00] <fuzzyvader> skype seems to be a great addition for those than can't seen and those that are willing to help
[05:01] <proudhawk> well, I am totally blind (about 4 months now). before I was a low partial (functional large print was abot it)
[05:01] <fuzzyvader> s/seen/see
[05:03] <Cheri703> fuzzyvader: do you just read along with the irc room? or what?
[05:04] <fuzzyvader> eh?
[05:04] <fuzzyvader> I'm on skype with proudhawk and reading his screen to him
[05:05] <fuzzyvader> and whatever messages he misses from here
[05:05] <Cheri703> ah, ok
[05:05] <proudhawk> woot orca is working!
[05:06] <Cheri703> yay!
[07:08] <proudhawk> well, thanks to <fuzzyvader> II was able to get a working 10.10 LTS orca configured and up and running. his eyes by skype and my fingers on the keyboard
[07:09] <proudhawk> orca works, but there were a couple of stutters. not sure why orca failed the 2 times, but everything is recovered
[07:18] <UndiFineD> good morning
[07:18] <proudhawk> boo!
[07:19] <proudhawk> so? whats up?
[07:19] <UndiFineD> hey
[07:19] <proudhawk> got speech working on the G#
[07:19] <UndiFineD> so you can "hear" us now
[07:19] <proudhawk> hehehe
[07:19] <proudhawk> yeah, I still need to install an irc client on there
[07:20] <proudhawk> but espeak works now (using the 10.10 LTS version
[07:20] <UndiFineD> do you prefer a CLI like client or GUI interface
[07:21] <proudhawk> the gui works ok for my means. I can use cli anytime I want. but some thing like web browsing are a  bit limited
[07:21] <UndiFineD> CLI: irssi or BitchX are the ones I know
[07:21] <UndiFineD> GUI: xchat
[07:21] <proudhawk> hmmmm. let me see if that one is in the package repository
[07:21] <UndiFineD> bitchx is not
[07:22] <proudhawk> whoa. something caused my G3 to freeze (again)
[07:23] <UndiFineD> I find orca failing on me from time to time
[07:24] <UndiFineD> as in, logging me out
[07:24] <proudhawk> well, this was an ssh session installing a bunch of packages
[07:28] <proudhawk> I can tell that something is off. orca is supposed to start on startup and sometimes it doesn't
[07:30] <UndiFineD> and now it doesn't
[07:30] <proudhawk> actually it does. not sure what is going on. checking the logs now
[07:31] <proudhawk> its something on the system. it just went unresponsive with nothing running
[07:34] <proudhawk> whoa. system load at 11.94
[07:35] <UndiFineD> something is going bad
[07:35] <proudhawk> udisks-daemon using 99% cpu
[07:36] <UndiFineD> udisk depends upon the system bus, which you also you for voice
[07:37] <UndiFineD> use
[07:37] <proudhawk> well, let me reboot that machine and see if it calms down
[07:38] <proudhawk> its behaving like there's a runaway process or a memory leak
[07:39] <proudhawk> even sudo reboot is taking a very long time to respond
[07:41] <UndiFineD> yes, shutting down is taking longer than starting up, as it seems
[07:41] <proudhawk> it finally rebooted
[07:41] <proudhawk> I am wondering if the HD is going south
[07:42] <proudhawk> its the original for that device. its like 7 or 8 years old
[07:42] <UndiFineD> a replacement would be welcome then
[07:43] <proudhawk> problem is, unless I can check the drive without the silly thing freezing up, I can't really know.
[07:43] <UndiFineD> do you like the loco ?
[07:43] <proudhawk> huh?
[07:44] <UndiFineD> the people on #Ubuntu-US-AZ 
[07:45] <proudhawk> found one that helped me via skype. he was my eyes and I did all the keyboarding. he's a linux newbie, but more than capable for what I needed
[07:45] <UndiFineD> great that it worked out
[07:46] <UndiFineD> I hope you will meet some of them in real life too
[07:46] <proudhawk> same here.
[07:46] <proudhawk> I even had hiim come into this chan to see who was around. he runs a computer shop in lake havasu city arizona
[07:47] <proudhawk> btw, I figured out what it was, it seems the machine can't handle high levels of HD i/o before the disk deamon goes into overdrive
[07:48] <proudhawk> now all I have to do is learn the various shortcuts on orca and I am gtg
[07:48] <UndiFineD> then I suspect it is logging too much
[07:49] <proudhawk> possibly
[07:49] <proudhawk> checking logs now
[07:51] <proudhawk> dammit, why do they always have to have apparmor running. that takes a lot of cpu and disk I/O
[07:53] <proudhawk> looks like pulseaudio is also having a few issues.
[07:58] <proudhawk> ok, turned off a few of the startup applications. I may have to dig a little deeper to turn off some system services
[07:59] <UndiFineD> gah, and then i got logged out again
[08:00] <proudhawk> hmmm. is this on a mac or an intel/amd box?
[08:00] <UndiFineD> an 7 year old xeon
[08:00] <proudhawk> you may want to check the logs for large number of repeated items.
[08:00] <UndiFineD> with 2 new disks
[08:01] <proudhawk> hmmm. something else failing?
[08:02] <UndiFineD> yes pulseaudio
[08:03] <proudhawk> oh brother. that may take a bit of troubleshooting. I saw large numbers of repeated entries here for that one
[08:04] <UndiFineD> Nov  4 08:59:15 head pulseaudio[13450]: pid.c: Stale PID file, overwriting.
[08:04] <UndiFineD> which only happens when i run orca
[08:05] <proudhawk> question; do you happen to be visually impaired? (I never really thought to ask)
[08:05] <UndiFineD> just before that it says pulseaudio[7128]: ratelimit.c: 5151 events suppressed
[08:05] <proudhawk> uh....yeah
[08:05] <UndiFineD> no I just need a 12px font
[08:05] <proudhawk> ah ok
[08:06] <proudhawk> thats a lot of events to have to surpress
[08:06] <UndiFineD> there are several of those event messages before it dies
[08:07] <proudhawk> and when it dies, so does orca
[08:07] <UndiFineD> every 5 seconds
[08:07] <proudhawk> there's your problem. looks like pulseaudio has a bug
[08:09] <UndiFineD> if could find that bug and fix it, orca must be happier
[08:18] <proudhawk> Nov  4 01:16:09 T72 pulseaudio[1168]: ratelimit.c: 43 events suppressed
[08:18] <proudhawk> Nov  4 01:17:12 T72 pulseaudio[1168]: last message repeated 12 times
[08:18] <proudhawk> Nov  4 01:18:12 T72 pulseaudio[1168]: last message repeated 12 times
[08:18] <proudhawk> my log is filled with that
[08:22] <UndiFineD> I found the related bug with pulseaudio
[08:22] <UndiFineD> but they passed it on to dbus
[08:22] <proudhawk> do tell
[08:23] <proudhawk> figures
[08:23] <UndiFineD> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/434436
[08:23] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 434436 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "pulseaudio: sudden crashes while watching video clips or listening to songs (affects: 52) (dups: 1) (heat: 235)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[08:29] <UndiFineD> i am not sure, but i found something that may fix it
[08:29] <proudhawk> ok, do tell
[08:33] <UndiFineD> ok, that did not work
[08:34] <proudhawk> what did you try?
[08:35] <UndiFineD> ln -s /bin/dbus-launch /usr/bin/dbus-launch
[08:35] <UndiFineD> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/582999
[08:35] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 582999 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "main.c: Unable to contact D-Bus: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spa wn.ExecFailed: /bin/dbus-launch terminated abnormally with the following error: Autolaunch error: X11 in itialization failed (affects: 1) (heat: 20)" [Undecided,New]
[08:37] <proudhawk> well, its time I hit the sack. I'll probably be back on tomorrow night (after my tandem bike ride)
[08:39] <UndiFineD> ofcourse I had not been logged out after the crash
[08:40] <proudhawk> before I go, I need to test my autojoin options.
[08:40] <UndiFineD> :)
[08:42] <UndiFineD> seems to work here
[08:43] <proudhawk> ok, it took me a moment, but I got the autojoin figured out
[08:43] <UndiFineD> enjoy your sleep and ofcourse the tandem ride
[08:44] <proudhawk> oh yeah. especially that. I've been wanting to ride for a long time
[08:45] <UndiFineD> great
[08:45] <proudhawk> well, good night.
[08:45] <UndiFineD> see you soon then :)
[15:58] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: hey, are you possibly going to put your install guide on a wiki page?
[16:03] <charlie-tca> did
[16:04] <Pendulum> awesome :)
[16:04] <charlie-tca> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/doc/StartGuide
[16:05] <charlie-tca> is the basic procedure. The entire procedure will become the TestCase for QA testing
[17:50] <lazarus_> how can i help
[17:58] <AlanBell> lazarus_: hi
[17:58] <lazarus_> AlanBell, hi
[17:58] <AlanBell> what did you have in mind?
[17:59] <lazarus_> i have no idea
[17:59] <AlanBell> :)
[17:59] <Pendulum> lazarus_: what are you interested in with regards to accessibility?
[17:59] <AlanBell> ok, so hanging out in the channel is helpful in itself
[18:00] <AlanBell> there are often people asking questions about navigation around Ubuntu with keyboard and screenreader
[18:00] <AlanBell> also join the mailing list
[18:01] <AlanBell> and look around the wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility 
[18:01] <lazarus_> well my eyes are sensitive to colours but to chang that you need to edit themes sepratley there needs  to be in my mind one configure tool across  the whole system ifthat makes any sense
[18:02] <AlanBell> there is a compiz colour filter plugin
[18:03] <AlanBell> which can be used to simulate colour blindness and presumably compensate for it (although there are no filters aiming to do that right now)
[18:05] <lazarus_> hmm
[18:15] <lazarus_> trying to think of other things
[18:43] <AlanBell> lazarus_: the next team meeting will be discussing some items that arose from the Ubuntu Developer Summit
[18:43] <AlanBell> Pendulum: when is the next meeting?
[18:43] <Pendulum> next week
[18:43]  * Pendulum starts drafting that e-mail...
[18:43] <AlanBell>  and /topic
[18:45] <lazarus_> i will be about
[18:54] <charlie-tca> lazarus_: how are you with the wiki?
[18:55] <lazarus_> charlie-tca, im not sure i understand what your asking
[18:56] <charlie-tca> Have you ever done any updates or anything ? We have 82 pages in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility to review and update.
[18:57] <lazarus_> i can try and help 
[18:58] <charlie-tca> great! We need to update references to Gnopernicus. That is no longer used, instead we use Orca
[18:58] <charlie-tca> We need to verify the references are still valid, some have become obsolete
[18:59] <lazarus_> i am sorta new to all of this
[18:59] <charlie-tca> and we need to review/proof read the text and make grammar and spelling corrections
[19:00] <charlie-tca> A guide to get started is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.
[19:00] <charlie-tca> If you have questions, feel free to ask here. 
[19:01] <charlie-tca> We do not use the tags they have there, but other than that, editing should be pretty much under those guidelines
[19:07] <lazarus_> charlie-tca, why does the wiki use the old style ubuntu colours?
[19:08] <charlie-tca> hmm, Most of that wiki does. wiki.ubuntu.com is the developers wiki, so it gets updated last, normally.
[19:08] <AlanBell> if you log in to the wiki and go to your preferences you can select the light theme
[19:08] <AlanBell> that is the new wiki theme which is not yet released as the default, but it will be
[19:09] <AlanBell> hopefully after they finish fixing it
[19:11] <charlie-tca> AlanBell: Is there a bug to get a high-contrast theme for the wiki?
[19:12] <charlie-tca> I talked to several developers and website people that were surprised to find out there was no theme suitable for high contrast.
[19:13] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I think there may be a work item on it
[19:13] <AlanBell> well I was doing a load of help on the light theme on the basis that they would install an accessible theme along with it
[19:14] <AlanBell> bug 654643
[19:14] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 7)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654643
[19:14] <charlie-tca> Okay, I will sit tight for a while more. If we don't get one though, we will have to keep pushing.
[19:15] <Pendulum> yep. czajkowski has an action item about it
[19:15] <AlanBell> http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente is the theme I want them to install
[19:16] <charlie-tca> That would be good!
[19:18] <AlanBell> don't think there is a bug related to that though
[19:18] <AlanBell> just some slightly stroppy emails
[19:20] <AlanBell> trouble is with the wiki is that things end up going as rt requests which get routed to /dev/null
[19:23] <AlanBell> we should have a little project to review bugs all over the place, tag them a11y and boost the priority as per the new rules
[19:24] <charlie-tca> I agree. Of course, I can only do importance on the Ubuntu bugs. All those little side projects are separate
[19:25] <charlie-tca> But anything I find is getting the a11y tag added
[19:25] <charlie-tca> I did review all the bugs in Ubuntu tagged accessibility. Triaged some, tagged all
[19:26] <Pendulum> AlanBell: UndiFineD were you the two who looked at askubuntu.com using orca and confirmed it's inaccessibility?
[19:30] <AlanBell> bug 671122
[19:30] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 671122 in ubuntu-website "install an accessible wiki theme (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671122
[19:31] <AlanBell> Pendulum: actually I am not entirely sure that askubuntu.com is inaccessible
[19:31] <Pendulum> I thought someone tested it?
[19:36] <AlanBell> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/68898/how-accessible-are-the-stack-exchange-sites-for-users-of-screen-reader-software
[19:38] <AlanBell> I don't really know how to properly test it with orca
[19:41] <charlie-tca> Thanks, AlanBell 
[19:42] <charlie-tca> I thought it was accessible in firefox?
[19:42] <Pendulum> I've commented back to Jared asking him to test.
[19:42] <Pendulum> I really thought UndiFineD looked during UDS and it broke using orca for him
[19:55] <UndiFineD> Orca fails for me from time to time, several websites do not make text audiable, today i found that orca skips audio, passes empty data to pulse, which passes it on to alsa, which causes an issue in dbus
[19:55] <UndiFineD> I have not checked it for use with askubuntu.com
[20:25] <Pendulum> ah, okay
[20:25] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: are you willing to check?
[20:26] <Pendulum> also, please file bugs on your problems if you aren't already doing so!
[20:26] <UndiFineD> at this time .. no, orca makes me log out
[20:26] <Pendulum> ah, okay
[20:26] <UndiFineD> this is a bug , already reported by someone else
[20:26] <Pendulum> *nods*
[20:27] <UndiFineD> but some website choose to protect their content by an overlay, these are especially hard
[20:28] <Pendulum> yeah
[20:28] <Pendulum> from what I can tell, the link about accessibility says essentially that one needs to run a script every time they're on stack exchange to make screen readers read it correctly
[20:28] <UndiFineD> you find them for example on groundbreaking scientific reports
[20:28] <Pendulum> *nods*
[20:29] <UndiFineD> where you *should* buy the content
[20:29] <Pendulum> btw, I apologize for any incoherency I'm ill (I also apologize if I don't remember any of this tomorrow)
[20:30] <UndiFineD> what happened to you ?
[20:31] <Pendulum> I went to UDS and caught ubuflu
[20:31] <UndiFineD> lol
[20:31] <Pendulum> so I'm curled up on the couch with liquids and snacks and brainless stuff to watch and do
[20:31] <UndiFineD> yes that what you get from flying
[20:32] <Pendulum> nah, it wasn't flying. it was definitely UDS
[20:32] <Pendulum> it started monday/tuesday-ish
[20:32] <UndiFineD> yes but many others were
[20:32] <Pendulum> heh
[20:32] <Pendulum> well, I did fly to UDS. just symptoms were long enough afterwards that I know I didn't catch it on the way there
[20:32] <Pendulum> it is what happens when you stick 350 people from various parts of the world in one area, though, yes
[20:33] <UndiFineD> I hope I will be able to go to bucharest
[20:33] <Pendulum> you mean budapest?
[20:33] <UndiFineD> and get sick too
[20:34] <UndiFineD> yes
[20:34] <Pendulum> heh
[20:34] <Pendulum> I hope to make it to budapest as well :)
[20:34] <Pendulum> I didn't get this sick last UDS
[20:34] <UndiFineD> i can choose, by train or plane
[20:34] <UndiFineD> both equally exspensive
[20:34] <Pendulum> I think I had more stress during this one
[20:34] <Pendulum> nice
[20:35] <Pendulum> I wish I could have taken the train to this one, but it would have been 3x as expensive and 24+ hours on the train in a wheelchair :-/
[20:37] <UndiFineD> oh your in a wheelchair, yes, such a train trip through europe is quite nearly impossible
[20:37] <UndiFineD> train aisles are too small, doors can be too small
[20:37] <Pendulum> where I've been in europe train travel hasn't bee a problem
[20:37] <UndiFineD> and the incredible number of stairways you encounter
[20:38] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: where in europe are you?
[20:38] <UndiFineD> the netherlands
[20:38] <Pendulum> actually, my experience with Dutch trains has been quite good :)
[20:39] <Pendulum> (I am in love with the city of Amsterdam and want to see more of the Netherlands :) )
[20:39] <UndiFineD> not all of them are good, and wheelchair help usually has to be ordered 2 days in advance
[20:40] <Pendulum> I've done it both ways
[20:40] <UndiFineD> I lived in amsterdam, the citty is too crowded, i went back to the countryside up north in friesland
[20:40] <Pendulum> although I suspect when I just show up the fact that I'm an American tourist probably helps
[20:41] <Pendulum> I've lived in NYC. Nothing seems crowded after that ;-)
[20:42] <UndiFineD> heh, queensday is madness in amsterdam, you can walk on heads
[20:45] <dutchie> tourism is worse when you are one of the tourist attractions
[20:45] <UndiFineD> yes you are dutchie 
[20:45] <dutchie> and when you live/work inside tourist attractions
[20:45] <UndiFineD> :D
[20:47] <UndiFineD> I think dutchie is afraid to cross the channel
[20:47] <dutchie> eh?
[20:47] <UndiFineD> so many people are waiting for Mr holland
[20:48] <dutchie> not sure if i could live up to that :)
[20:48] <UndiFineD> see I am right
[20:48] <dutchie> i have spent a week in .nl before
[20:48] <dutchie> the jokes began to get old after ~2 hours
 I didn't get this sick last UDS --> Belgium must be a less dangerous place than Florida  ;)
[21:19] <Pendulum> JanC: but Florida is warmer.
[21:19] <Pendulum> I partially blame the rainstorm that my wheelchair broke during the middle of on Tuesday
[21:21] <JanC> wheelchair broke?
[21:25] <Pendulum> yeah
[21:25] <Pendulum> fixed within 30 minutes
[21:25] <Pendulum> but it meant I got really thuroughly soaked
[21:25] <Pendulum> and didn't get anywhere that I could get dry for several hours
[21:27] <JanC> yeah, that's always bad to get sick
[21:27] <JanC> BTW: I upvoted the meta.se question too
[21:27] <Pendulum> thanks :)
[21:29] <JanC> every SE site I register on, I get 100 points for free because of linking the account to my other SE accounts, so I get upvoting rights automatically
[21:30] <Pendulum> :)
[21:30] <JanC> (might be a good trick for those who need more rep)