[00:43] <Seeker`> o/
[01:01] <jrib> #debian getting hit
[01:28] <IdleOne> is he serious or just trolling?
[01:30] <jrib> IdleOne: clueless or trolling... hard to tell
[01:30] <IdleOne> i think it's a little of both
[01:39] <Seeker`> putty sucks for UTF-8
[01:39] <IdleOne> heh
[01:39] <IdleOne> noted
[01:39] <Seeker`> !cn
[01:39] <Seeker`> yeah, doesn't display at all
[02:20] <Wuubuy_> hello my name is Bill Goodman. I am use to meeting girls from the internet and they unexpectedly farting when my dick is in their butt. I hope that breaks some ice. I am not a man of high expectations. So i hope some of the girls here won't mind speaking up. I am sure you are great people in heart.
[02:20] <IdleOne> !ops
[02:20] <maco> !ops
[02:20] <Wuubuy_> hi
[02:20] <maco> IdleOne: wahh why are you always faster than me?
[02:21] <maco> tonyyarusso: thank ye
[02:21] <IdleOne> maco: I have certain words on "extreme highlight $me"
[02:22] <maco> well i got the highlights because of "girls"
[02:22] <maco> i just typed a longer kick message in #ubuntu
[02:23] <Seeker`> maco: you have girls on hilight?
[02:23] <maco> Seeker`: yes
[02:23] <Seeker`> does that get triggered much?
[02:23] <maco> at least 5 times a day
[02:23] <Seeker`> and how likely is it that a troll triggered it?
[02:24] <maco> trolls? infrequent. sexist douchebags? about 1/3-1/2 the time
[02:24] <maco> (the other half is "im gonna go have dinner with my girlfriend now" or "im a parent of two little girls" etc)
[02:25] <maco> this is how i catch "ugh why are girls so stupid?!" conversations in #ubuntu-offtopic
[04:10] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: Do you know of anyone I could talk to who would be likely to know of general predictions for job openings at Canonical in Montreal Q3/4 2011?
[04:11]  * tonyyarusso would prefer something a little closer to Minnesota, but there seem to be a lot more options in Montreal than Thunder Bay, so I guess I should look
[04:13] <aborticide> how to make font smaller in virtualbox ?
[04:13] <Flannel> aborticide: #ubuntu is the place for support, not here.  Thanks
[04:21] <aborticide> can i be unmuted, please?
[04:46] <IdleOne> aborticide: for virtualbox try #vbox as for the mute I will leave that up to bazhang
[05:04] <aborticide> okay thanks
[05:04] <aborticide> but fonts is an ubuntu issue
[05:04] <mneptok> tonyyarusso: if things are the same as when i left, openings aren't that well known beforehand. best to just watch the job listings on the Canonical site.
[05:07] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: noted.  Care to share other Canadian places I should consider?
[05:18] <mneptok> tonyyarusso: don't really know many.
[05:18] <mneptok> tonyyarusso: i was only there for 3 years, and moved there for work and left when i left the job.
[05:33] <elky> looks like thefeds is out and about again
[09:52] <ikonia> marienz: are you there ?
[09:53] <marienz> ikonia: somewhat
[09:53] <ikonia> marienz: was it you who spoke to Bacta about this jewkonia stuff recently ?
[09:54] <marienz> ikonia: no
[09:54] <marienz> ikonia: is he still at it?
[09:54] <ikonia> rats, do you know who it was
[09:54] <ikonia> http://pastebin.com/UCePXX0P
[09:54] <marienz> ikonia: not off the top of my head, but relaying through me probably works anyway
[09:54] <ikonia> he's upped the game now trying to actually associate himself with me
[10:09] <jpds> How very strange.
[10:45] <ikonia> hello wells
[10:45] <wells> hi
[10:46] <ikonia> how can we help today ?
[10:46] <wells> is this chan concern abuse for ubuntu-fr ?
[10:46] <ikonia> wells: that would be #ubuntu-irc
[10:47] <wells> tkx
[11:46] <burnmedvdiso> please remove ikonia from admins
[11:46] <ikonia> hi burnmedvdiso sorry for having to forward you here, I tried to talk to you in pm but you where not responding
[11:47] <burnmedvdiso> atleast his mute and kick privlages
[11:47] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: I'd put a temporary quiet on you in the channel while I asked you to stop with the smart comments in #ubuntu, it's a busy channel and needs to stay on topic,
[11:47] <burnmedvdiso> that is all good day
[11:47] <ikonia> if you don't wish to disucuss / resolve your removal then, that is all, thank you and please leave the channel.
[11:47] <burnmedvdiso> it was fine untill you showed up.. again..
[11:48] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: do you wish to discuss/resolve your removal, yes/no ?
[11:48] <burnmedvdiso> this is repetive, ikonia i wish you would just leave me alone..
[11:48] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: do you wish to discuss/resolve your removal, yes/no ?
[11:48] <ikonia> that's the only question we need an answer to
[11:49] <burnmedvdiso> yes... thats y i came here
[11:49] <ikonia> ok,
[11:49] <ikonia> firstly, I'm sorry I had to remove you and forward you here, but you where not responding to private messages
[11:49] <burnmedvdiso> ugh..
[11:49] <ikonia> I put a short quiet on you to explain that the smart comments where not needed, just need to keep with the ubuntu support channel topic,
[11:49] <burnmedvdiso> does anyone else but ikonia talk?
[11:50] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: as you don't wish to resolve your removal, please leave the channel
[11:50] <burnmedvdiso> or was present in #ubuntu?
[11:50] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: I have asked you straight if you wish to resolve it and you are ignoring the conversation
[11:50] <burnmedvdiso> i am not
[11:50] <Seeker`> yes, but ikonia is doing a good job, so ill let him continue
[11:51] <burnmedvdiso> really?
[11:51] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: this is the last time I'll ask - do you wish to resolve this ban foward, yes/no ?
[11:51] <burnmedvdiso> i find it on the edge of harrasssment / abuse of privlages
[11:51] <burnmedvdiso> yes
[11:52] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: then respond to me - and I'll explain how to make a complaint once the issue is resolved
[11:52] <burnmedvdiso> i have?
[11:52] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: you've not, you've ignored everything I've said
[11:52] <Seeker`> you wont get anything different from anyone else, so if you want to get back in to #ubuntu you nees to talk to him
[11:52] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: I've explained it was a temporary quiet while I explained to you to keep with the topic, if your comfortable keeping with the topic then I'm happy to remove the ban/quiet and let you re-join
[11:52] <burnmedvdiso> seeker i have not had any issues with any other admins just ikonia
[11:53] <ikonia> I only had to forward you here as you did not respond to any pm's
[11:53] <burnmedvdiso> he has a long history with me
[11:53] <ikonia> I don't even know you
[11:53] <burnmedvdiso> and i wish for him to leave me alone
[11:54] <ikonia> I've never spoke/banned you before
[11:54] <burnmedvdiso> and stop muteing for a oneline that is off topic...
[11:54] <burnmedvdiso> or in all cases
[11:54] <burnmedvdiso> not at all off=topic
[11:54] <Seeker`> burnmedvdiso: feel free to ppart the channel then. your ban will not be removed unless you are willing to discuss it with ikonia
[11:54] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: as I explained, I asked you to get on topic, you ignored it and tried to be clever with me, I asked again, you tried to be clever again, I muted you and sent you a pm, you ignored it, I forwarded you here, now we are up to date
[11:55] <ikonia> I'm not aware of any other history with you as I don't know your nickname and I've never banned or muted you before
[11:55] <burnmedvdiso> this is the 8th time i was in a convo ubuntu relevent and you muted me!!
[11:55] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: I've never muted you before or seen your nickname before, do you use other nicknames ?
[11:56] <burnmedvdiso> ugh w/e please un mute me i'll just log off when you join
[11:56] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: no
[11:56] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso:  do you use other nicknames ?
[11:56] <burnmedvdiso> no..
[11:56] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: have we had conflict under other nicknames ?
[11:56] <burnmedvdiso> not that werent resolved
[11:56] <ikonia> then I have never muted or banned you or seen your nickname before , and you are telling lies, so I'll end this discussion
[11:57] <burnmedvdiso> lies?
[11:57] <ikonia> our records show this nickname has never been banned before
[11:57] <burnmedvdiso> good
[11:57] <ikonia> so eitber you are telling lies about using other nicknames or me banning you
[11:57] <ikonia> either way, I'll end this conversation
[11:57] <burnmedvdiso> i'm not lieing at all..
[11:57] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: so why do our records not show any other bans ?
[11:58] <burnmedvdiso> this convo isnt over untill i have chat rights back..
[11:58] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: then you need to answer the questions
[11:58] <Pici> Then you need to talk to ikonia about it, instead of making comments that hes the worst op etc.
[11:59] <burnmedvdiso> o.0?
[11:59] <burnmedvdiso> i never said that, only provided examples
[11:59] <Seeker`> this isnt going anywhere
[11:59] <Pici> Clearly.
[12:00] <burnmedvdiso> i wont talk in chat when ikonia is on...
[12:00] <burnmedvdiso> that much i'm comfy with
[12:00] <Pici> burnmedvdiso: Then I don't think we'll be resolving this any time soon.
[12:00] <Seeker`> burnmedvdiso: please leave then.
[12:00] <Pici> !appeals > burnmedvdiso
[12:00] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: sorry that is not acceptable
[12:00] <burnmedvdiso> as i can't get one line out when he is on
[12:01] <burnmedvdiso> ubott thats not even what we are disscussing here
[12:01] <burnmedvdiso> ...
 I've muted you for a moment in #ubuntu, you don't need to get smart or have an attitude, you where just asked to follow the topic, either "ok" or just following the topic is enough [04:39] <ikonia> I'm happy to remove the mute if you just get with it a little more [04:39] == ikonia [~mattd@unaffiliated/ikonia] [04:39] ==  realname : Matt Darcy [04:39] ==  channels : #ubuntu [04:39] ==  server   : hubbard.freenode.ne
[12:02] <Pici> Okay?
[12:03] <burnmedvdiso> who is being smart here?
[12:03] <Pici> I see ikonia being courteous to you.
[12:03] <burnmedvdiso> what does he mean by attitude and get with it?
[12:04] <burnmedvdiso> where did i go wrong past my 2-3 lines of text?
[12:05] <burnmedvdiso> what was offtopic where you felt it was?
[12:05] <burnmedvdiso> how do you ikonia, feel that phrase was off topic?
[12:06] <ikonia> oh, sorry, I wasn't responding as I didn't think you where progressing it with me
[12:06] <ikonia> the offtopic comments where discussing hardware
[12:06] <ikonia> and then the follow up comments to me asking you to stop
[12:06] <ikonia> the other person discussing his hardware issues was also directed to stop, and did
[12:07] <burnmedvdiso> the psu was causeing issues with ubuntu..
[12:07] <ikonia> possible, and that was being worked through, but he was partly ranting about his hardware and you where just slating brands
[12:07] <burnmedvdiso> ah
[12:07] <ikonia> if you look after you where muted he was brought back into working through the hardware issue within ubuntu
[12:08] <burnmedvdiso> so no discussion of brands mainly...
[12:08] <ikonia> no
[12:08] <ikonia> it's nothing to do with not naming brands, but your comments about brand A being poor where just fueling his rant
[12:08] <ikonia> he needed to return to resolving the issue
[12:08] <burnmedvdiso> even tho that help diagnose issues...
[12:08] <ikonia> it didn't help
[12:08] <ikonia> it was fueling his rant, which is why it returned to the problem in relation to ubuntu
[12:09] <burnmedvdiso> you didnt let it...is what i'm saying
[12:09] <ikonia> well, after I muted you, it got there pretty quick
[12:09] <ikonia> and if you had responded to my pm, I would have removed the mute, as I said I was happy to
[12:09] <ikonia> instead you've decided to make things up about me banning you 8 times
[12:09] <burnmedvdiso> lol it was playful chatter i wasnt gonna let it go past 1-2 lines
[12:10] <burnmedvdiso> i didnt...
[12:10] <burnmedvdiso> and i won't
[12:10] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: have I banned you 8 times befoe ?
[12:10] <ikonia> before
[12:10] <burnmedvdiso> only once and that was in error..we corrected it
[12:10] <ikonia> then why did you say 8 times earlier
[12:10] <burnmedvdiso> mutes is anther story tho xD
[12:10] <ikonia> and why do our records show no other bans
[12:11] <ikonia> there are no records of any other mutes
[12:11] <burnmedvdiso> good
[12:11] <ikonia> so how can I have banned/muted you 8 times before
[12:11] <burnmedvdiso> i'd like to keep it that way
[12:11] <ikonia> so how can I have banned/muted you 8 times before
[12:11] <burnmedvdiso> you did.. even tho there are no logs of it
[12:12] <burnmedvdiso> my brain doesnt keep logs
[12:12] <burnmedvdiso> it remembers xD
[12:12] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: ok, so what I'm going to do because the records are so conflicting
[12:12] <ikonia> I'm going to leave the ban in place while I go through the logs and find out if you are telling lies or not
[12:13] <burnmedvdiso> wow dude...
[12:13] <ikonia> there are a lot of logs and it will take a while, but you are saying our auto system missed 8 bans/quiets and I have no memory of ever seeing you before
[12:13] <burnmedvdiso> pazsion...
[12:13] <burnmedvdiso> ubufool...
[12:13] <ikonia> that is a big statement to make, when there are no records (which auto create) and I have no reference of it
[12:14] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: that's where we stand. It will take a few days to search the logs, I'll send you a memo on memo serve when the investigation is complete
[12:14] <burnmedvdiso> i've changed pc's
[12:14] <burnmedvdiso> dude
[12:14] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: that doesn't matter
[12:14] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: the logs will show that
[12:14] <burnmedvdiso> i gave you the info
[12:14] <ikonia> what info ?
[12:14] <burnmedvdiso> you dont have to search anything...
[12:15] <ikonia> what info
[12:15] <Pici> Can we try to deal with the issue at hand.
[12:15] <burnmedvdiso> nicknames i've used that were muted or banned by you
[12:15] <burnmedvdiso> ikonia your getting off topic -.-
[12:16] <ikonia> Pici: I am doing, I've explained why this person was banned, no problem resolving that, but if he's making statements about 8 previous mutes then there is either a problem with this user, and our tracking system
[12:16] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: I've not seen the other nicknames (you said you didn't' use any) which ones are they and I'll check now
[12:16] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: if you have the other nicknames I'll check now (very quick) and we can put this to bed
[12:17] <burnmedvdiso> pazsion and ubufool i belive, i have not used other nicks on this pc....
[12:17] <ikonia> ahh, I see
[12:17] <ikonia> I didn't realise they where nicknames
[12:17] <ikonia> 1 moment and I'll check
[12:17] <burnmedvdiso> well i did first log on this chat with pazsio n today
[12:17] <burnmedvdiso> on this pc..
[12:18] <burnmedvdiso> i hope that doesnt mess up the entire log =c
[12:18] <ikonia> nope, not at all
[12:18] <ikonia> again our records don't show either of those users
[12:18] <burnmedvdiso> i kno it's been a while but, you forgot me already =/
[12:18] <ikonia> but as you've decided to now explain the truth that you do use other nicknames, I'll be happy to remove the mute in #ubuntu if you can agree to stick with the ubuntu support topic
[12:18] <burnmedvdiso> well then that is good
[12:19] <burnmedvdiso> i've been telling you the truth the whole time...i don't use other nicks...
[12:19] <ikonia> you've just told me 2 others that you do use
[12:20] <burnmedvdiso> pazsion is primary, and then others are relevent to my issues <<example
[12:20] <ikonia> so they are "other nicknames"
[12:20] <burnmedvdiso> wow
[12:20] <ikonia> as I've said though, if you are happy to keep with the topic in #ubuntu I'll be happy to remove the ban
[12:20] <burnmedvdiso> kk guys i'm out of here sorry you had to witness this... but i do need witnesses sometimes
[12:21] <burnmedvdiso> and ty ikonia
[12:21] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: so you can keep with the topic in #ubuntu yes/no ?
[12:21] <burnmedvdiso> yes, can you let people chat before you mute them?
[12:21] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: no
[12:22] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: please listen one more time
[12:22] <burnmedvdiso> ell then
[12:22] <ikonia> the topic is "support" not chatter
[12:22] <burnmedvdiso> well then
[12:22] <ikonia> please keep with support and there will be no problem
[12:22] <ikonia> is that acceptable
[12:22] <burnmedvdiso> you need to "chatter" to find solutions..
[12:22] <ikonia> ok, but please keep it relevant to the issue, not random
[12:22] <burnmedvdiso> sigh...
[12:23] <ikonia> I'm trying here, but your smart responses are not helping
[12:23] <burnmedvdiso> i'm not trying to be "smart"
[12:23] <ikonia> this is exactly what got you muted,
[12:23] <ikonia> then just respond, clearly and sensibly
[12:23] <burnmedvdiso> i'm trying to understand why you are the way you are, and how you go about things
[12:23] <ikonia> keep the topic relevant to the problem, and there will be no issues
[12:23] <ikonia> is that acceptable ?
[12:24] <burnmedvdiso> you create issues...by making on topic things..offtopic.. that is your opinion...not what is actually happening...that's the problem..and yes
[12:24] <ikonia> burnmedvdiso: I'll ask one more time
[12:24] <ikonia> keep the topic relevant to the problem, and there will be no issues
[12:24] <ikonia> is that acceptable ?
[12:24] <burnmedvdiso> yes again
[12:25] <ikonia> great, I'll remove the ban
[12:25] <burnmedvdiso> ty
[12:25] <ikonia> the ban has been removed, you can leave this channel and re-join #ubuntu
[12:25] <burnmedvdiso> you have a good day...
[12:26] <ikonia> there is more to that than meets the eye, I have no recollection of ever banning/muting him before,
[12:26] <ikonia> the records show nothing
[12:26] <Pici> That was odd.
[12:27] <ikonia> I found it odd, yes
[12:27] <seeker> Yeah, might be worth keeping an eye on him
[12:27] <seeker> Professional troll IMO, he spent a lot of effort arguing about everything but the ban
[12:27] <ikonia> I'm sure he'll be back with the nick webcamdead or something like that
[12:27] <ikonia> not sure if there was a bit of a language issue there
[12:28] <seeker> Every time you tried to talk to him about the ban, he started talking about something else
[12:28] <seeker> Like how unfair it was, or how you were mistreating him
[12:28] <ikonia> I'm hoping that was just his frustration and wanted to make an issue out of me banning him
[12:29] <ikonia> I was more curious as to him saying he has a regular problem with me and I've banned him many times
[12:29] <seeker> Maybe, but it is pretty classic serial-troll behaviour.
[12:29] <ikonia> not sure if that was just to make it look like I was picking on him
[12:29] <ikonia> possible
[12:29] <jpds> seeker: How much do you think he charges per troll?
[12:30] <seeker> jpds: He pays himself in 'lulz'
[12:33] <seeker> People that dive off on a tangent the second the reason for the ban is brought up tend to be here a lot.
[13:41] <Tm_T> we do, thanks (:
[15:59] <IdleOne> ikonia: that burnmedvdiso person was the same person with the modified flash binary.
[16:01] <Pici> proof?
[16:02] <IdleOne> same evasion pattern when op asks about reason for banning
[16:02] <Pici> Thats hardly evidence.
[16:02] <IdleOne> fine
[16:03] <IdleOne> but they were ban evading
[16:03] <IdleOne> if you believe it was the same person that is
[16:04] <Seeker`> IdleOne: lots of trolls do that
[16:07] <Seeker`> a "good" troll will derail the conversation from the topic that is meant to be discussed (i.e. the ban) at every chance they get, because they know the conversation wont end until it is discussed
[16:08] <Seeker`> which is how we end up with 2 hour long arguments in here
[16:45] <ikonia> IdleOne: totally differnet ISP, oly256 seems to stick to the same IP for all the problems he's been
[16:45] <ikonia> IdleOne: oly265 is normally VERY abusive
[16:46] <IdleOne> I stand corrected. Very similar arguing patterns though
[19:54] <niko> mind if +r a little ?
[20:07] <Seeker`> niko: I don't mind
[20:07] <IdleOne> +r is set
[20:10] <IdleOne> Also I don't think anybody will mind if you feel thee is a need to set +r
[20:10] <IdleOne> there*
[21:18] <ikonia> marienz: again bacta has returned to be an issue
[21:18] <marienz> ikonia: channel?
[21:18] <ikonia> #ubuntu-us
[21:18] <ikonia> ahhh he's gone again
[21:19] <marienz> and/or nick
[21:19] <ikonia> bacta
[21:19] <ikonia> I'm pretty annoyed still over the #css incident this morning where he is claiming to be associated with me as a jew
[21:22] <marienz> please prod me if he shows up again
[21:22] <ikonia> no problem, sorry for the slow response
[21:22] <marienz> it's irc, slow responses happen, I'm the last one to complain about those :)
[21:24] <ikonia> yes, but I also don't want to abuse you as my personal bacta police
[21:29] <ikonia> was mike_deb_h jacksparrow ?
[22:33] <elky> whoa, wait, we're advertising "want to be an ubuntu op" in the topic of *offtopic*...?
[22:34] <ikonia> simpley stupid
[22:34]  * elky searches for army disposal outlets nearby
[22:34] <ikonia> sorry to say it
[22:34] <elky> imma build myself a fort.
[22:34] <ikonia> if you want to be an op, the wiki page says you should be subscribed to the mail list
[22:34] <ikonia> the advert went out on the mail list, that's enough
[22:34] <Pici> And the planet
[22:34] <ikonia> great, and the planet too
[22:35] <ikonia> why did it not just go out on the mail list ?
[22:35] <ikonia> who did it ?
[22:35] <elky> topyli i think
[22:35] <ikonia> did the whole council agree to this ?
[22:36] <elky> I dunno, but it's hardly ideal targetting. the people in the support-giving collaboration spaces are a more streamlined target than -ot
[22:36] <Pici> Which?
[22:37] <elky> Pici, planet
[22:37] <ikonia> the advertising in the topic, the advertising on planet ?
[22:37] <elky> the -ot topic suggests tonyyarusso
[22:37] <Pici> elky: We did that last time we asked for ops too.
[22:38] <ikonia> who decided we needed more ops ?
[22:38] <ikonia> (not that I'm disagreeing I just don't remember seeing it discussed on the list)
[22:38] <Pici> Its been discussed for a while...
[22:38] <ikonia> where ?
[22:38] <elky> ikonia, uds discussion
[22:38] <ikonia> I wasn't at uds
[22:38] <ikonia> neither was %70 of the operator team
[22:39] <elky> i'm aware. im still not sure why topyli was summoned but why you werent when you had agenda items
[22:39] <ikonia> I am getting VERY fed up of the council acting in "our" interests without asking "us"
[22:39] <Pici> It wasn't to go over agenda items, it was to go over our plans for the cycle.
[22:40]  * persia feels fairly firmly that decisions have to be made in the regular meetings, regardless of UDS.  UDS is a wonderful way to discuss stuff, but actions ought result in agenda items being brought to meetings and people writing position papers.
[22:41] <persia> It's ugly and annoying, but this is governance.
[22:41] <ikonia> no it's not
[22:41] <topyli> hrm
[22:41] <persia> ikonia, Hrm?  How not?
[22:41] <elky> it's so far proving to be ineffective governance
[22:41] <topyli> elky: fwiw, i said i'd be there but forgot. then i was nicely reminded
[22:41] <persia> elky, That's a bug we ought fix.  Only by participating can we have successful governance.
[22:42] <ikonia> persia: sorry, I worded that wrong, I agree that decisions shouldn't be made at UDS, there is a mailing list that we are obliged to subscribe to and meetings to discuss this
[22:42] <elky> there's bureaucracy being made for the point of trying to prove that something is being done, whereby the something isn't really anything more than "creation of red tape"
[22:42] <persia> ikonia, Sure.  I agree.  I also think that UDS offers higher-bandwidth discussion space, and that it remains worth having discussions there, which ought be brought back to the mailing list and the meetings.
[22:42] <Pici> I suggest reading over yesterday's logs from this channel.  I'm not sure I want to have this same conversation again.
[22:43] <elky> Whereas I suggest having it until it's fixed.
[22:44] <persia> elky, bureaucracy is not my favourite means of governance, but any governance necessarily involves documentation and checks&balances.  Staying away from bureaucracy is tricky, but doable, especially so long as the means of raising changes remains open to all, rather than requiring approval (which I believe to be currently true)
[22:44] <Pici> I'd prefer constructive discussion.  Harping on the problems is useful once, but it gets old.
[22:44]  * persia agrees with Pici in terms of implementation
[22:45] <elky> persia, the bureacracy being created is slowing things that really need to be sped up, not slowed
[22:46] <persia> elky, I understand your position.  I still think the best resolution would be to draft a counterproposal and add it to the agenda of the next meeting (preferably having sent it to the mailing list for discussion beforehand)
[22:47] <persia> This is not extremely lightweight, but anything less seems to result in constant complaints about people not getting informed.
[22:48] <Pici> Agreed.  This is one of the reasons why I suggested that we move our meeting times so that we aren't making decisions in a vaccuum.
[22:49] <topyli> making them in vacuums would lighten the bureaucracy though! :)
[22:49] <persia> Yeah, but at a cost.
[22:49] <topyli> last joke, i promise :)
[22:49] <persia> I dislike bureaucracy, but not to the extent of preferring anarchy.
[22:53] <topyli> there is no no agenda of "increasing bureaucracy" really. we need to make clear so that everyone may know how stuff is done. when it works badly, it will be changed
[22:54] <topyli> so "please lighten the bureaucracy" is not a real request. "please fix issue X" is
[22:56] <elky> topyli, it's not 'lighten the bureaucracy', it's 'this isn't something that bureacracy is going to fix, rather it will make it worse'
[22:56] <Seeker`> ikonia: the decision was made in a meeting on the 9th October.
[22:57] <elky> and when you make *more* processes you by default make more bureaucracy
[22:57] <ikonia> I missed that meeting, so my fault
[22:57] <Seeker`> ikonia: It was decided that -ops would be treated like every other channel, and that nhandler would send a mail to the -irc list requesting applications.
[22:57] <elky> ikonia, i asked jussi to call you. i don't have your #
[22:57] <Seeker`> ikonia: I would point you to the meeting minutes, but nhandler assigned them to himself and hasn't gotten round to it yet.
[22:58] <topyli> *poke* :)
[22:58] <Seeker`> ikonia: i forgot about what happened in the meeting, and  I was there. It did take 25 days after the meeting to get the email out.
[23:00] <Seeker`> did jussi explicitly refuse to get in contact with ikonia about it?
[23:00] <persia> Seeker`, So the UDS effect was more a matter of enforcing implementation of a previously agreed action than taking a decision?
[23:00] <elky> Seeker`, he refused to acknowledge my repeated requests. (this is about the uds session which ikonia wanted to discuss things)
[23:01] <Seeker`> persia: the decision to recruit ops for -ops was taken on the 9th october in an IRCC meeting.
[23:01] <Seeker`> persia: I don't know about the other channels
[23:01] <elky> are we talking 2 different 'meetings' here?
[23:02] <topyli> i didn't know the whole irc team has to collectively agree on whether or not more ops are needed somewhere
[23:02] <Seeker`> elky: I have no idea
[23:02] <topyli> the -ops issue was raised, and other channels were need as well. so more ops are being recruited
[23:02] <persia> We don't, although ops in any given channel do like to be consulted about getting more ops in that channel.
[23:03] <topyli> -ops ops requested more ops iirc
[23:03] <Seeker`> topyli: tbf, discussions that don't require privacy should take place in public
[23:03] <topyli> Seeker`: you honestly don't want *that* much noise here
[23:03] <persia> topyli, That makes sense, and matches my memory of bundles of us clamouring for more ops here in the past.
[23:04] <Seeker`> topyli: doesn't have to be here. Should be somewhere though.
[23:04] <Seeker`> just so there is a public record of what was decided when
[23:04] <nhandler> And to be fair, the agreed upon process does say that the email gets sent out when the IRCC notices the need for more OPs in a particular channel.
[23:05] <Seeker`> y'know, in the interests of procedure, transparency
[23:05] <Seeker`> nhandler: Yes, it does. That isn't the point being debated.
[23:05] <Seeker`> nhandler: the point being discussed is whether there should be visibility of the discussion that led up to the email being sent
[23:05] <elky> nhandler, does it also say to advertise it to the chaotic rabble that is #ubuntu-offtopic?
[23:06] <topyli> elky: yes the chaotic rabble over there is a good place
[23:06] <Seeker`> :O naughty jrib
[23:06] <elky> topyli, i disagree
[23:06] <topyli> i see that
[23:06] <nhandler> elky: That is fine, you are welcome to disagree. And just because it is advertised there and people there *might* apply doesn't mean they will necessarily get accepted
[23:07] <elky> luring the wrong people to apply is not going to end well, especially if they're the ones who already argue about op decisions
[23:07] <Seeker`> nhandler: do you believe that discussions by the IRCC about topics like whether more ops are needed should be kept private and hidden?
[23:08] <nhandler> Seeker`: They weren't. As you saw by quoting meeting logs, the topic of recruiting more OPs has come up several times in public places
[23:08] <topyli> elky: there are fine people in -ot
[23:08] <Seeker`> nhandler: the logs only showed discussion of more ops in here. Not #u or -ot
[23:08] <elky> topyli, those fine people are also elsewhere
[23:08] <elky> topyli, talk to signal. -ot is noise.
[23:09] <topyli> elky: all of them? :o
[23:09] <Seeker`> yes, the topic has been adressed in public. But not all of the discussion was.
[23:09] <elky> topyli, the majority, yes.
[23:09] <Seeker`> there is, believe it or not, a difference between "some" and "all2
[23:09] <elky> the loud, noisy, entitled majority.
[23:09] <topyli> wow the other place is big
[23:10] <Seeker`> nhandler: and I really wish you would stop picking up on technicalities that are tangential to the matter in hand in the hope of derailing the topic.
[23:11] <persia> Wait, we can't expect everything to happen somewhere visible to everyone.
[23:11] <persia> In development, there was a case of that happening during the maverick cycle: everything happened transparently and in public, and because of that, there wasn't much discussion, and nobody was happy with the implementation.
[23:12] <persia> It's better to have a mix of public and private discussion, to keep the discussions alive, and have public review and decision.
[23:12] <Seeker`> persia: why not? Surely all of this process and red tape that has been introduced is in the interests of transparency. Why shouldnt decisions that arent required to be hidden, be hidden#
[23:12]  * persia asks for a reread
[23:12] <Seeker`> persia: but atm there isn't public discussion at all on some things
[23:12] <elky> persia, and I wish that we were able to follow discretion, rather than walk a long, winding line of tape.
[23:12] <Seeker`> persia: things are discussed in private, annoucned, and thats it
[23:13] <Seeker`> and then because they have already been decided, require 3 months to get the matter brought up with all the interested parties present
[23:13] <persia> Seeker`, In toto, I agree that's an issue, but I think the problem is with the "announced, and that's it" part, and I think arguing the discussion side only adds to our inability to act.
[23:13] <Seeker`> persia: pardon?
[23:13] <persia> elky, How can't we?
[23:14] <persia> Seeker`, I argue that private discussions are fine, as long as there are public proposals and public decisions.
[23:14] <elky> persia, well we can. The reaction when we do isn't so favourable though.
[23:14] <Seeker`> persia: atm, all -irc discussions are public, because they happen on a public mailing list, or in logged channels
[23:14] <persia> elky, I think that's something that has to be solved by specifics, unfortunately.
[23:14] <elky> Like, for instance, when someone gets temporary ops to deal with a touchy situation.
[23:14] <persia> Seeker`, Except for the bits that happen in /query, sure :)
[23:15] <Seeker`> the IRCC can make decisions totally in private, without any consultation from the people that the decisions actually make a difference to
[23:15] <persia> Sure, but doing so isn't likely to have them get appointed next time there's a selection cycle.
[23:16] <persia> Ubuntu isn't a democracy, at all, in any way.  That doesn't mean that the governors aren't subject to the will of the governed, only that it's more indirect.
[23:17] <persia> So I don't think it's a problem that the IRCC *can* do that.  I think it's irresponsible if they do that too much, and I suspect that they are more likely to be reconfirmed if they have a participative process to develop policy.
[23:17] <persia> But I'm getting to the edge of where I can have an opinion, sadly, because this is interesting.
[23:18] <Seeker`> persia: maybe it isn't, but the IRCCi s meant to ensure the smooth running of the Ubuntu IRC. At the moment, that isn't happening. There are nightly arguments between the IRCC and the people they are meant to be governing, along with an apparent dismissal of the opinions of people that aren't on the IRCC, but have served before, or been ops for a while, as irrelevant
[23:20] <elky> That's a chasm that's only appeared in the past 6 months
[23:20] <elky> or maybe 9 months, but still. it never used to be there.
[23:20] <Seeker`> The fact that it has appeared at all shows that something is being done wrong.
[23:20] <persia> Speaking only as a junior OP, I agree with you.  I just happen to think we'd do better to document how we want it to work, submit that to the ML, and come to agreement in the meetings.
[23:20] <elky> things weren't perfect before. but by $deity they are worse now.
[23:21] <Seeker`> persia: "junior op"?
 Sure, but doing so isn't likely to have them get appointed next time there's a selection cycle.  <--- unless they run uncontested....
[23:21] <elky> persia, when im home and unpacked etc, I'm going to take a look at drafting a proposal
[23:21] <elky> maco, oh, what happens then is that they dismiss the result of the nomination process and manufacture some
[23:22] <persia> maco, Even then.  Read the charter.  IRCC is *appointed*.  Votes are only a means of providing input to the appointing body.
[23:22] <Seeker`> elky: have you confirmed your nomination yet?
[23:22] <persia> Seeker`, Yes.  I'm an op in a bunch of obscure channels, and I'm most definitely not wearing any other hats for the purposes of this discussion.
[23:22] <elky> Seeker`, i'm talking about last time
[23:23] <persia> elky, Cool.  Thanks for taking that up.
[23:23] <Seeker`> elky: I was just asking about this time, as I haven't recieved an email from the IRCC like I asked to say you had
[23:23] <elky> Seeker`, but yes, i keep meaning to send that mail, but this involves arguing with squirrelmail on dreamhost which isn't so pretty. i only have my work notebook with me
[23:23] <Seeker`> heh, thats what I use :P
[23:23] <Seeker`> persia: your opinion is just as valid
[23:24] <elky> do you have to wade through ubuntu-user mailing list spam?
[23:24] <Seeker`> persia: we don't really have "junior" and "senior" ops
[23:24] <Seeker`> elky: not subscribed to that one, but I redirect mailing lists to different folders
[23:24] <persia> Seeker`, fair.  I just wanted to be extra clear that I'm not in any way speaking as CC.
[23:24] <elky> Seeker`, oh, im not subscribed either. im just still listed as a mod, which means all kinds of mail finds me in all kinds of ways
[23:25] <elky> it's how i find out when new lists appear. all "oh, i haven't seen that ML name before..."
[23:25] <popey> Rad- looks suspicious
[23:25] <popey> in #u
[23:25] <Jordan_U> Rad- in #ubuntu is likely a troll.
[23:25] <popey> heh
[23:26] <popey> elky: would you like to be removed as a mod?
[23:26] <popey> (of ubuntu-users)
[23:26] <ikonia> night all
[23:26] <elky> popey, i think so. it's no point if im not getting the mails to mod, eh
[23:26] <popey> ok
[23:26] <elky> popey, i only found out this week that i was still listed as mod. i didn't even think that unsubscribing didn't alter that.
[23:27] <popey> elky: done
[23:27] <elky> popey, <3
[23:27] <elky> also, I was sad at the lack of marmite party :(
[23:27] <popey> wut wut wut!
[23:27] <popey> slackers
[23:27] <persia> There was a lack of marmite party?  Where?  When?
[23:28] <elky> at UDS :(
[23:28] <elky> At least, i wasn't made aware of it.
[23:28] <popey> Something Must Be Done!
[23:28] <persia> Which night?
[23:28] <persia> What?  How can you be sad at a party you weren't made aware of?
[23:28] <elky> persia, because popey promised me one :(
[23:28] <popey> i couldn't get to UDS :(
[23:28] <elky> But then there was a lack of popey
[23:28] <persia> popey got stuck on the wrong side of the atlantic, as far as I could tell.
[23:29] <persia> popey, So next time you'll carefully organise a party without permitting any marmite?
[23:29]  * popey hugs his marmite XO
[23:29] <elky> popey, i have however now tasted british marmite though. A friend in SF had some.
[23:29] <elky> I waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant
[23:29] <Seeker`> :D
[23:29] <Seeker`> you'll have to come here elky
[23:30] <elky> it's like a whole different *mite, and equally nommable
[23:30] <elky> Seeker`, you need to move your country closer :(
[23:30] <Seeker`> marmite <3
[23:32] <popey> http://twitter.com/popey/status/329575536009216 for elky
[23:33] <elky> I promise, I'm not licking my screen.
[23:33] <popey> :)
[23:34] <elky> Really. I swear I"m not.
[23:36]  * persia hands elky an alcohol wipe
[23:36] <Seeker`> mmmm, TFT goodness? :P
[23:37] <elky> Heh
[23:54] <Seeker`> Has the IRCC ever considered a referendum of the op team on issues that are obviously causing a rift between the IRCC and op team?
[23:54] <persia> is there a list of those?
[23:54] <Seeker`> a list of what?
[23:55] <persia> " issues that are obviously causing a rift between the IRCC and op team"
[23:55] <persia> I don't think a call for opinions (or votes) for a list of issues that doesn't exist can help.
[23:56] <Seeker`> well, one seems to be the defintion of what a core-ops is
[23:56] <persia> If there is a list, we need to identify positions for each of them, and then we can poll.
[23:56] <Seeker`> how ops are chosen in here is another (although related)
[23:57] <Seeker`> and there seems to be a general dissatifaction about the timelyness of IRCC decisions, although that isn't really something you can construction a motion to vote on
[23:57] <Seeker`> elky: anything I've missed?
[23:58] <persia> timeliness is problematic over the entirely of Ubuntu governance, sadly
[23:58]  * persia is part of the problem, and feels appropriately guilty, and still doesn't have a solution
[23:59] <Seeker`> persia: It took 25 days between the decision being taken to recruit more ops in here and the email being sent