/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/10/#ubuntu-accessibility.txt

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webczatHey.08:46
webczatI still have problems08:46
webczatWith this sound thing, if i have orca enabled on my login screen and it works, i log into my admin account and i have orca enabled and it works, i create an account with sound permissions and i log out, i have orca on login screen, i log in to the new account and i have sound. if i start orca and it works, and then i log out, sound (the whole sound on the whole system)  is completely gone. If i log in to the test account and don't start orca t08:48
webczatwhat happens with my sound when i start orca on the second account?08:50
leoquantHi webczat i have no idea, but stay tuned, maybe someone else can help you with this.09:03
webczatugh10:16
webczatagh10:17
webczatis it pulse problem?10:18
AlanBellmeeting in 40 minutes or so . . .20:17
Pendulumyes20:19
charlie-tcathanks for the reminder20:22
charlie-tcafirst install - unity on the ubuntu image - fails for nvidia20:22
charlie-tcacan't get anything to work20:22
Pendulumoh dear20:23
charlie-tcano way to install hardware nvidia driver20:23
Pendulumis this the new unity based on compiz?20:23
charlie-tcacan't read the information at the bottom of the gdm screen, text is light gray on white20:23
charlie-tcano, I don't think compiz is there yet, but I could be wrong20:23
charlie-tcaAll I could tell for sure is that the windows are now integrated into the panel20:24
AlanBellcompiz unity isn't available yet20:25
charlie-tcabut, at least the install worked from the alternate image today20:26
charlie-tcaMaybe the desktop image will work tomorrow20:26
charlie-tcatoo early to get shook up about it20:26
PendulumAlanBell: I saw something where Luke said he was installing it. maybe in -desktop. so it may not be public yet, but it's there for natty.20:27
AlanBelloh good20:30
AlanBellI think the compiled package in a ppa doesn't exist yet (or didn't a couple of days ago) but the code is available in a bzr branch20:30
paul_h1meeting time?21:00
AlanBellyes21:01
Pendulumone sec, I'm just switching machines21:01
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* AlanBell just did an unscheduled laptop reboot21:02
PendulumAlanBell: exciting :)21:02
Pendulumif y'all will just bare with me for a moment...21:03
Pendulumcharlie-tca: TheMuso IdleOne dutchie any of y'all around?21:04
dutchiePendulum: o/21:04
Pendulum#startmeeting21:04
meetingologyMeeting started Wed Nov 10 21:04:31 2010 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.21:04
meetingologyUseful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.21:04
TheMusoPendulum: Yep.21:04
AlanBello/21:04
* charlie-tca waves21:04
PendulumTheMuso: ooh. wasn't sure if you'd be up yet :)21:04
TheMusoYeah, its just after 8 AM here.21:04
PendulumAlanBell: do we need to do anything special for it to do list of attendees?21:05
* TheMuso needs make a habbit of adding these meetings to his calendar... Once he finds a suitable GTK application to do so.21:05
AlanBellPendulum: nope, it will record everyone who speaks21:05
Pendulumwin21:05
* charlie-tca thinks orage is not accessible yet21:05
paul_h1hi all21:06
TheMusocharlie-tca: Thanks, will check that one out.21:07
Pendulum#topic Review Blueprint from UDS-N & Natty Narwhal Cycle Plans21:07
meetingologyTOPIC: Review Blueprint from UDS-N & Natty Narwhal Cycle Plans21:07
Pendulumso the main point of this meeting is to go over the blueprint from UDS, especially with an eye for making a schedule of it21:07
Pendulumhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info is our main blueprint21:07
PendulumAnother relevent blueprint for scheduling stuff I suspect is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-unity-a11y which I think has now been broken down into milestones?21:09
TheMusoYeah the unity stuff has been broken up into a few different blueprints.21:10
TheMusoBut David hasn't yet looked at the a11y spec since I updated the whiteboard.21:10
PendulumTheMuso: am I missing any others that will have information that will be relevent to our scheduling?21:10
TheMusoPendulum: I don't think so.21:10
Pendulumokay, has everyone had a chance to look over the blueprints if you hadn't looked at them already?21:11
AlanBelljust re-reading the unity one21:12
TheMusocharlie-tca: Yeah not accessible, and doesn't work with google calendar.21:12
TheMusoWhich for me is a requirement, should have made that clear.21:13
charlie-tcaI will keep looking. I can't find one that works right either21:13
Pendulumpaul_h1: have you looked at the blueprints before? do you have any questions?21:13
TheMusoEvolution is buggy, I am able to make it crash a bit, and the calendar is not 100% accessible as it is, thuderbird+lightning is a non-starter, too difficult to get around, as just about everything is rendered as a web page...21:14
Pendulumpaul_h1: you're the only person here who I don't remember being either in person or remote at UDS so I want to make sure you're on the same page as everyone else :)21:14
paul_h1Pendulum: not had the chance to read them yet. I was listening to the unity session at UDS though21:14
charlie-tcasunbird was good, but it went away in maverick21:14
AlanBellthere is also https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-accessibility-reorg to flick through for stuff done/not quite finished from last cycle21:15
TheMusocharlie-tca: But that was essentially lightning was it not?21:15
charlie-tcaThat's what they say. It was a good stand-alone calendar that worked much better than lightning21:15
TheMusoBig shame.21:16
AlanBellok, so scheduling of action items21:17
paul_h1I can't even install lightning, just tells me it isn't compatible with the version of thunderbird I've got21:18
AlanBellhow do you want to do that? start with priority items? put dates against things?21:18
PendulumI'd like to do a little bit of both21:18
charlie-tcapaul_h1: it will require at least an up to date maverick. I haven't tried for some time, though21:19
PendulumI suspect a good number of the action items (especially mine ;-) ) are going to actually lead to more action items within the cycle, but I'd like to get what we have scheduled if possible21:19
Pendulumfor people who aren't here and have action items, I'm going to talk to them separately :)21:19
PendulumTheMuso: am I correct that the goal for having the basic framework done and in Natty is alpha2?21:20
charlie-tcaWe should probably have at least milestones for planning purposes. 21:20
Pendulumcharlie-tca: exactly :)21:20
TheMusoPendulum: Correct.21:20
TheMusoPendulum: Keyboard nav should be done by alpha 1.21:20
Pendulumcharlie-tca: can we set that you'll have test cases done by Alpha 1? (feel free to grab other people including me to help you with that)21:21
charlie-tcayes, at least the first ones21:21
charlie-tcaWill be writing at least 821:21
Pendulumthat way people can start to do testing of keyboard navigation with impairments in mind then21:22
Pendulumcharlie-tca: should we break down your action item into specific test cases?21:22
Pendulumor into numbers?21:22
charlie-tcano, not yet, since I don't know for sure how many will be possible. 21:22
Pendulumok21:22
charlie-tcaI will keep trying to run through them and if I can get a number, I can let you know21:23
Pendulumso for alpha 1 can I say "preliminary test cases written" and for alpha 2 "final test cases written"?21:23
charlie-tcayes, I think so21:23
Pendulumthat way we can define "preliminary" and "final" by however seems best to do them as things start gettind done21:23
PendulumAlpha 1, btw is December 7th21:24
charlie-tcaI think we aim for two or three for Alpha121:24
charlie-tcaWe have to have a full working image to do all of them21:24
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I'm not thinking about testing. I'm just thinking about having the stuff written so people know how to test for them21:25
charlie-tcaCan't really write it unless we know it will work. Otherwise, they will fail the test since it doesn't work as written.21:25
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I think you and I should talk about this outside of the meeting just so I can get some stuff straight and we can see what we can do since we won't have any accessibility features really in natty until alpha2 and we need most things written before then so people can test the heck of it starting with alpha221:27
charlie-tcayes21:27
Pendulummoving on...21:27
Pendulumbecause I suspect this may help somewhat with test cases & testing profiles...21:27
Pendulumdutchie: AlanBell what do you think you can do with personas in terms of getting them done?21:28
dutchieer21:28
PendulumAlanBell: was Charline's feedback useful?21:28
AlanBellwell I am planning to get the Faisal one done in the next couple of weeks21:28
AlanBellcharline's feedback was good21:28
Pendulumwould it be reasonable to hope for rough drafts by alpha1 and then final by alpha2? (hopefully a little earlier than alpha2, but so we can set definite milestones say alpha2)21:29
AlanBellI need to do more of the fleshing out of the character as Charline said and get it published on the wiki21:29
Pendulumaka rough drafts for all of them21:29
AlanBellyes, rough drafts for all of them and one finished for alpha 121:30
Pendulumdutchie: are you going to be able to help or is school eating all your time now?21:30
Pendulum(no pressure either way, I just want to know :-) )21:30
dutchienot likely to have time to help until end of term21:31
dutchiewhich is the 4th21:31
Pendulumof december or january?21:31
dutchiedec21:31
Pendulumso you probably can't do much with rough drafts, but could help on final, correct?21:31
AlanBellwow, that is a *huge* christmas break!21:32
Pendulumdutchie: ^^21:35
dutchieyes21:35
dutchieon both counts21:35
dutchieexcept it's not a break21:36
AlanBell:)21:36
Pendulumokay, I'm assigning myself to help AlanBell with rough drafts of personas and assigning dutch to help with the final personas :)21:36
Pendulumdutchie: what's your name in launchpad?21:38
dutchiejshholland21:38
Pendulumokay21:38
Pendulumin other scheduling stuff, I've just talked to czajkowski who is going to try to contact alejandra about wiki & website accessibility this weekend21:39
Pendulumso if people can send me feedback/links to bugs/etc. about those things, I'll pass them to her :)21:39
PendulumTheMuso: I have down as an action item that I should be talking to johnlea on design about relevent keyboard shortcuts and what will be needed. Should I also be coordinating that with someone on desktop team? (not sure if it'd be you or someone else)21:41
charlie-tcabug 63792721:41
ubot2Launchpad bug 637927 in ubuntu-rs-forum "Neprecizni rezultati pretrage (affects: 3) (heat: 9)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/63792721:41
charlie-tcano21:42
Pendulumcharlie-tca: who was the no aimed at?21:42
AlanBellthe bug21:42
charlie-tcathe bug i screwed up21:42
Pendulumokay, just checking :)21:42
TheMusoPendulum: Probably someone on the DX team, not sure who though.21:45
PendulumTheMuso: okay. i'll ask around :)21:46
Pendulumokay, i'm looking at the list and the rest of the items are either assigned to people who aren't here or to me. So somehow I don't think they need to be discussed here unless someone else sees a pressing need21:47
AlanBellwant any help with the wordpress blog?21:48
Pendulumnope. all I'm going to do is register a wordpress blog and then ask charlie to go through the various default wordpress themes that can be used and let me know which is the most accessible :)21:49
Pendulumjust do a wordpress.com one because that's how most teams do it21:49
AlanBellgreat21:50
Pendulumyep21:50
Pendulumhope to have that all done within the next week, in fact21:51
Pendulumanyone have anything else regarding blueprints that they want discussed?21:51
Pendulumgoing once...21:52
Pendulumgoing twice...21:53
Pendulumokay. moving on21:53
Pendulum#topic Any Other Business21:54
meetingologyTOPIC: Any Other Business21:54
charlie-tcao/21:54
Pendulumcharlie-tca: go for it21:54
charlie-tcaWe now wiki pages for Specifications, Software, and Goals under the development header21:54
charlie-tcaIt would be nice if we could update them as we go. If a goal is reached, remove it completely. 21:55
charlie-tcaIf a piece of software is available somewhere and we want it, add it.21:55
charlie-tcaAlso, can we update the Contacts page, please/21:55
charlie-tca?21:55
charlie-tcaAnd, lastly, is there anything I missed in the headers that we really want?21:56
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I'm not sure we have anything else for the contacts page atm21:56
charlie-tcayup, that's a mouthful fast21:56
charlie-tcadone now21:57
PendulumI mean, I can put myself down as contact for locos & webpage (and set the webpage to be the blog), but not sure about forums at all21:58
charlie-tcaIt can wait, as long as we got the important ones down.21:58
Pendulumok21:58
Pendulumand if anyone thinks of other contacts they want on that page, please let us know!21:59
charlie-tcaAt least now people will know there is a contact for each team area, right/21:59
Pendulum*nods*22:00
Pendulumwe may want to list out more specifically that I'm general contact and TheMuso is really the devel contact22:00
Pendulumotherwise the wiki work is all looking good to me22:00
Pendulum:)22:00
Pendulumanyone else have anything?22:00
Pendulumokay, I'm guessing not22:01
PendulumI wanted to let y'all know that tomorrow I start fortnightly meetings with jono. If there are pressing concerns that you think need to be raised with him, please e-mail or PM me. I can't promise to bring everything up with him, but I do want y'all to be aware that the meetings are happening :-)22:03
AlanBellexcellent22:03
TheMusoSweet.22:04
charlie-tcawow22:04
Pendulumanything else?22:06
TheMusoNot from me.22:06
Pendulumokay. then I'm guessing we're done!22:07
AlanBellnot from me22:07
jonoPendulum, any chance we can change our time tomorrow - I have taken if on vacation, but like normal I am doing my calls in the morning22:07
jonocan we do the call in the morning pacific time?22:07
Pendulum#endmeeting22:07
meetingologyMeeting ended Wed Nov 10 22:07:39 2010 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)22:07
meetingologyMinutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2010/ubuntu-accessibility.2010-11-10-21.04.moin.txt22:07
Pendulumjono: yeah. I'm free. just let me know what time you'd like to move to :)22:07
charlie-tcaThanks, Pendulum 22:08
jonoPendulum, let me check22:08
jonoPendulum, 10am Pacific?22:09
Pendulumjono: sounds good22:09
jonoPendulum, thanks!22:09
jonoPendulum, just ping me on IRC around that time and we can figure out how to talk best22:09
Pendulumjono: will do :)22:10
jonothanks Pendulum!22:12
jonobtw, folks, if you agree with OpenRespect, see http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonobacon/5164728083/22:12
jonowould be cool if you could add something to your blogs22:12
jonocould be a good way of socializing the message :-)22:12
AlanBelljono: is there an accessibility angle to openrespect?22:13
jonoAlanBell, not really, just a conduct angle22:13
jonooops22:13
Pendulumjono: I was going to poke you because I'm not sure the sidebar on open respect is easy to read for people who need high contrast22:14
jonoPendulum, oh darn22:15
jonowhat would I need to do to fix it?22:15
Pendulumeither make the type darker or the background a little lighter, I think22:15
Pendulumcharlie-tca: have you looked at open respect yet?22:15
Pendulumjono: I should be clear that I'm not talking about the button, I'm talking about on the actual site22:17
jonoPendulum, you mean the 'SHARE THE RESPECT' type font?22:19
jonoor the main body text?22:19
Pendulumjono: the "this site was formed..." bit22:19
jonoPendulum, gotcha22:20
Pendulum(under "Why does this exist"22:20
Pendulum)22:20
PendulumI mean, I've got decent eyesite and it looks blurry to me due to the contrast issues22:20
jonoPendulum, I think it is a little darker now22:21
charlie-tcaI have, and dented about it, too22:21
charlie-tcaI did think all italics is harder to read22:23
charlie-tcaItalics look pretty, but are much harder for a lot of people to read. The slant of the letters and the way some of them are formed make for more difficulty reading them.22:26
charlie-tcaI guess I didn't really care so much about that, though. I think it is very important we try to get word out about this very topic.22:27
charlie-tca(and if I could get all of the ubuntu websites and wikis to be as clear reading, I would be thrilled.22:27
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I agree on getting word out being more improtant. I just figured that any little bit that helps people access it is also good ;-)22:28
charlie-tcait is. But I can't even print the leadership code of conduct on my printer. At least jono's sites are readable22:28
Pendulumcharlie-tca: can you mention the problem with the leadership code of conduct in #ubuntu-locoteams?22:32
Pendulumand file a bug on it?22:32
charlie-tcabug 67092722:33
ubot2Launchpad bug 670927 in ubuntu-website "Can not print the "Leadership Code Of Conduct" (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/67092722:33
Pendulumthey're planning on making it signable by the end of this cycle so they should know if it's not accessible22:33
Pendulumcharlie-tca: I've poked some more people about it now :)22:35
charlie-tcagreat! thanks22:35
charlie-tca9 bugs about the website we would like to see some action started -22:36
charlie-tcahttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.tag=a11y&field.tags_combinator=ANY&22:36
charlie-tcafield.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on22:36
charlie-tcaWell, let me get that in a smaller url22:37
CaioAlonsocharlie-tca, about the printing bug, would a print-only stylesheet solve this?22:37
charlie-tcaI don't know stylesheets enough to say. 22:38
charlie-tcaPendulum: http://2tu.us/2svl22:38
CaioAlonsocharlie-tca, it's a different set of rules of style to the page for a different media22:38
charlie-tca9 a11y bugs about the website22:38
charlie-tcabut that doesn't mean I know how to make it print22:39
CaioAlonsocharlie-tca, as of now, the light theme is using the same styles (fonts, font-sizes, etc) for the screen and print, probably creating a different stylesheet suited for printing would solve this22:39
charlie-tcawill a print-only stylesheet allow the ***IK:DML:JK  frame to send all the text to the printer?22:39
charlie-tcaRight now, the text is cut off after the printer gets the first page of it22:39
charlie-tcaI don't know how to get it to page the printer, I guess. I think that is what is needed, but I don't really know.22:40
CaioAlonsoI don't have a printer with me here, but printing the page to a pdf gives me a nice version of it, are you using the light-wiki theme?22:40
charlie-tcaEvery website with frames prints the same way, one page of text out of the printer, and then it is done22:40
charlie-tcaTry printing to a real printer, not a file22:41
Pendulumcharlie-tca: the feedback I"m getting is that when it's signable, it will be on launchpad and be like the CoC22:41
CaioAlonsocharlie-tca, does the wiki uses frames?22:41
charlie-tcaThat doesn't solve the issue of printing it. The text is about a 6pt font, which is very hard it see22:41
charlie-tcaCaioAlonso: I think it does, that is what I find when the printout dies that way22:42
Pendulumcharlie-tca: it's also apparently on the wiki somewhere (the link you gave was to ubuntu.com)22:42
charlie-tcaMaybe it is a different problem with it, but normally if the printout dies, it is due to frames22:42
charlie-tcaubuntu.com is a wiki22:43
CaioAlonsocharlie-tca, I agree with you about the font size, in that case a stylesheet just set for printing would allow increasing the fontsize, removing the menu and footer and maybe organizing the text to a better column width22:43
CaioAlonsooh, sorry, didn't saw that the link was on ubuntu.com, thought it was on the wiki22:43
charlie-tcaCaioAlonso: the problem is, if the text is increased, less characters will print out22:44
CaioAlonsocharlie-tca, on a single page, yes, but is it a requirement for the text to fit on a single page?22:44
charlie-tcanot for me, it isn't. Even at the font size they are using, it won't22:45
CaioAlonsoI'm going to post on the bug report about the printing stylesheet22:45
CaioAlonsoand about the printer issue, I'll try to print it on the weekend and see what I get22:46
Pendulumcharlie-tca: have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeadershipCodeofConduct22:46
Pendulum(which confused loco people beacuse you talk about the wiki and it is in fact on the wiki as well and they were thinking "but the wiki had larger type, etc."22:46
charlie-tcano, I haven't22:46
Pendulumit's the exact same thing just in wiki format22:47
charlie-tcaI see. Printing now, let's see what it does22:47
charlie-tcaThat one prints22:47
charlie-tcaso, how do we get ubuntu.com fixed? 22:48
Pendulumdunno22:48
Pendulumbut I'm not sure that bug is going to stand with people since there is an alternate format :-/22:48
charlie-tcaIf canonical is interested in accessibility...22:49
CaioAlonsoI'll see if I can contribute to the lp:ubuntu-website code, then I can make the alternate stylesheet for it22:49
charlie-tcaThere is no reference from one to the other. It is still an a11y issue.22:49
charlie-tcaI think this is what is so frustrating. The whole concept of "it is somewhere else too. just search long enough..."22:56
CaioAlonsocharlie-tca, about the code of conduct?23:04
charlie-tcano, about trying to get things fixed when you can't really find out who to even notify23:04
AlanBellgetting website stuff changed is *hard*23:05
AlanBell#ubuntu-website is the channel in theory23:05
AlanBelland there is a mailing list on lists.canonical.com23:05
AlanBellhttps://lists.canonical.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-website23:06
MichelleQ1I'm sorry I missed the meeting earlier. 23:22
PendulumMichelleQ1: no worries :-)23:24
Pendulumyou didn't miss anything particularly exciting23:24
PendulumI'll want to talk to you about some stuff later tonight if you'll be around, but not right now23:25
Pendulum(just scheduling stuff)23:25
MichelleQ1I'll be around later tonight - 8-9ish?23:33
Pendulumsounds good23:34
MichelleQ1it's a date then!23:40
Pendulumooh lala :P23:40
charlie-tcathis gets funnier with each comment on the bug report now! It is incomplete because it looks fine in the browser,...23:49
charlie-tcalol23:50
charlie-tcaDo we really have so many people working on websites that do not understand english?23:51

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