[01:18] <akgraner> nhandler, it's not about levels set in stone it's about removing the confusion and show a progression of skills so no one is overwhelmed by the responsibilities or areas as well as build contribution that eventually corresponds to "real world" positions
[01:19] <akgraner> this way if someone says - I was a contributing editor it means something to other professional organizations
[01:20] <akgraner> I think people should get some type of professional development with volunteering so you get more out of it in the long run
[01:21] <akgraner> It's a way to add to the motivational paycheck b/c sometimes working with UWN requires long hours and frustration
[01:23] <akgraner> it will also give descriptions and realistic expectations to anyone wanting to take on those responsibilities - something that has bugged me for a while now is that there is no progression and no "hit by a bus" plan - which is one of the things I had hoped we could work on this cycle
[01:24] <akgraner> so that no matter what someone/anyone could read the SOP wiki for UWN and put it together
[01:26] <akgraner> I am just thinking out loud - we can work on the game plan and goals at the December meeting
[01:26] <akgraner> :-D
[01:37] <nhandler> akgraner: I agree that having a "hit by a bus" plan is nice. But as you saw yesterday, when stuff like that happens, other editors pick up the slack and simply go through the checklist. The "rank card" doesn't really matter if we feel that all editors are qualified (which they should be) and dependable to review/do stuff. As for the responsibilities, we got some of the tasks/duties documented last cycle iirc.
[01:37] <akgraner> it's not about rank
[01:42] <akgraner> it's about giving people progressions and something to work on or toward so people don't get bored - imagine working for a company/organization doing the same job for years with no documented next step.
[01:44] <highvoltage> it seems like you're both agreeing :)
[01:45] <akgraner> highvoltage, we aren't arguing just getting all the angles covered
[01:46] <akgraner> on the development side of things there is this progression of sorts - but those of us who aren't developers don't have that opportunity to point to where people understand without question the role we were/are volunteering in
[01:46] <Pendulum> also, I can say from the POV of someone who has worked in publishing, if your open source work is something that's helping you with your resume then there's a difference between "editor" and "contriburing editor" on a resume
[01:51] <highvoltage> I've never even had a resume :/
[01:51] <akgraner> I want anyone who wants to help with the news team to be able to - and others who want to be responsible for things for 6+ months to be able to use that experience, and those skills be verifiable if someone wanted to use it as a reference
[01:52] <highvoltage> (been lucky to sneek into my last bunch of jobs without one)
[01:53] <highvoltage> with my last interview they said "could you walk us through your resume?" then I said "but I don't have one!" and then they said, "oh, we have it right here!" and gave it to me. then I said "oh! that's a printed copy of my linkedin profile! complete with linked in logos and everything!"
[01:53] <highvoltage> I guess I should make one at some point
[01:55] <nhandler> akgraner: In terms of getting bored, I think we should look at it as either moving horizontally or expanding the duties. i.e. if someone gets bored simply doing the Launchpad news, they can move to a different section or work on multiple sections, or they can move to proof reading, or move to some other task. I agree that this sort of stuff is useful for resumes, but adding titles for that purpose alone is a bit silly. ...
[01:55] <nhandler> ... The actual work performed is what matters much more than the title
[01:56] <akgraner> but if you can't make a potential employer understand what you have been doing without taking up an hour of their time then it's not a good thing
[01:57] <nhandler> akgraner: And the idea of the 'progression' in development is actually less and less true since archive reorganizaiton.
[01:58] <akgraner> nhandler, you can point to code
[01:58] <akgraner> you can show your code
[01:58] <highvoltage> having an honest good recommendation, like having an endorsement from akgraner saying "highvoltage is a really good workhorse and does a reliable job every time" is imho much better than a phoney title like "Executive Editor Review Specialist" or whatever
[01:58] <nhandler> akgraner: And editors can point to UWN issues saying "I wrote the foo section" or "I proofread issues x, y, and z"
[01:59] <Pendulum> highvoltage: you have to get to the point where they want the recommendation first
[01:59] <nhandler> highvoltage: Unless of course your title is SABDFL ;)
[01:59] <akgraner> you can show your patches what works etc - but for those of us who aren't developers we don't write code - there is a responsibility to give something back to those who support those projects etc
[01:59] <highvoltage> Pendulum: ah. you can't include that in a resume?
[01:59] <Pendulum> highvoltage: nope. they just want people they can contact if they want references
[01:59] <Pendulum> highvoltage: a resume is essentially a list of titles
[01:59] <highvoltage> Pendulum: ah, bummer.
[01:59] <Pendulum> and i've never had my references checked
[01:59] <Pendulum> in about 10 years of applying for jobs
[02:00] <akgraner> nhandler, no they can't there isn't always a record of who wrote what b/c the person who wrote it doesn't always add it to the wiki and who is going to look through all the diffs to verify it
[02:01] <akgraner> anywho it was just a discussion
[02:01] <nhandler> I guess I agree with a lot of the ideas you are presenting, I just don't necessarily agree with some of the motives
[02:03] <akgraner> nhandler, what motives are wrong
[02:03] <akgraner> to some how find a way to make sure the benefit Ubuntu gets from their contributions is matched by what they get back in return?
[02:07] <highvoltage> I guess some people just don't care much about return?
[02:07] <nhandler> akgraner: They deserve recognition, which is why we mention all the contributors of every issue. I would much rather include a little note at the bottom stating what everyone did for the issue than add titles whose only purpose is making it look nice on a resume. Even in the development world, you will find the majority of people simply list themselves as an 'Ubuntu Developer'. Being an 'Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter Editor' ...
[02:07] <nhandler> ... should be enough. If the potential employer is just looking for titles/experience they will take note and move on. If they actually are interested and want to know more, they can look it up or ask (same as what they would do for dev work)
[02:07] <highvoltage> I certainly don't expect anything when I contribute to Ubuntu, that would just make it too complicated and daunting.
[02:07] <highvoltage> (at least, for me personally)
[02:09] <akgraner> if all you are worried about is the title you are missing my point behind it - it seems like you stopped listening once you saw suggested titles - sigh
[02:10] <nhandler> I thought I commented on the other part earlier
[02:10] <akgraner> you keep coming back to titles
[02:11] <nhandler> You brought them up ;) I just responded
[02:11] <akgraner> as I said I was thinking out loud  - it wasn't anything set in stone
[02:11] <akgraner> oh dear god
[02:11] <nhandler> akgraner: Yep. So am I. I'm not criticizing you or the plan, just throwing out my thoughts
[02:11] <nhandler> Like I said, I agree with the general ideas
[02:12] <akgraner> nods
[02:13] <akgraner> I think I need to step away from the conversation for a little while as I am sensitive to this for a ton of reasons...
[02:13] <nhandler> akgraner: What doc on the fridge todo list would you say should get written up next (from the ones I claimed) ?
[02:14] <nhandler> akgraner: That is fine (I've had to do that a few times this week). Like you said, this is just ideas being tossed out. We can sort them out and polish them up later
[02:15] <akgraner> nhandler, I'll get back to you on that one - thanks! :-)
[02:15] <nhandler> :)
[02:15] <nhandler> And any word from Charlie?
[02:16] <akgraner> before I find my pillow - I don't want anyone to think that I don't appreciate any contribution on any level whether it is one time of years at a time - I do... You all rock and anyone who helps is awesome - just looking at various options to make it even better :-)
[02:17] <akgraner> or years not of years
[02:17] <nhandler> +1 akgraner
[02:19] <akgraner> I think they have the code reviewed and they have a few questions - just need to work on that - added it to my todo list for in the morning :-)
[02:19]  * nhandler hugs akgraner 
[02:20] <akgraner> nhandler, thanks! We'll catch up tomorrow...
[02:20] <nhandler> Night akgraner
[10:47] <alourie> hello folks
[12:50] <nhandler> akgraner: Got the email and saw the edits. Thanks :)
[13:43] <akgraner> nhandler, you're welcome - thanks again for putting that together
[21:23] <highvoltage> nhandler: should Charlie's mail about the Xubuntu community meeting be an article for ubuntu-news.org?
[21:24] <nhandler> highvoltage: I don't tend to post meeting stuff like that. Otherwise, the meeting reminders would fill the fridge imo
[21:30] <highvoltage> nhandler: ok. so ubuntu-news.org doesn't completely replace the fridge?
[21:31] <zkriesse> hey nhandler what's the code to redirect a page to another page on the wiki?
[22:06] <nhandler> highvoltage: It did. We never really posted meeting reminders/announcements like that (i.e. notice that none of the notices about the IRC Meetings ever get posted)
[22:06] <nhandler> zkriesse: #REDIRECT NEW/Page
[23:11] <highvoltage> nhandler: hmm, I think that's kind of dumb but I'm on the run so can't talk about it right now :)
[23:17] <nhandler> highvoltage: Basically, my feelings were that if we start posting meeting announcements/reminders they will fill up the fridge (just look at the calendar and see how many meetings we have each day). That is one reason we made the fridge calendar
[23:24] <highvoltage> nhandler: I certainly don't think we should post all meetings, but significant meetings that the community should know about? sure!
[23:24] <nhandler> highvoltage: And what is a "significant meeting the community should now about"? Would that be all CC meetings? All membership board meetings?
[23:25] <nhandler> We already link to the team pages for most of those teams as well as have the fridge calendar
[23:25] <highvoltage> there's also a difference between having the same "Xubuntu Meeting" with no metadate every week in UWN, and having a post that says "Hey, we're having a meeting where we're going to plan out pretty much all we discussed at UDS and plan our next 6 months worth of work!"
[23:26] <nhandler> highvoltage: You can go ahead and post it if you want to. I just don't think there is much point and like having a clear policy (and dislike execeptions)
[23:31] <highvoltage> nhandler: ok, I'd rather bring it up at the next meeting than do something if it's specifically against policy.
[23:31] <nhandler> highvoltage: There really isn't a "policy". Just sort of a precedent
[23:39] <highvoltage> nhandler: perhaps the ubuntu-news site isn't the best place for that, but it would be nice to have a good place to make community announcements
[23:39] <nhandler> highvoltage: That is what the MLs are for ;) People interested in Xubuntu subscribe to the ML and get the relevant announcements.