[17:30] <bcurtiswx_> unity+compiz.. i can't click the ubuntu button on the top left
[17:32] <bcurtiswx_> and things on my gnome-panel will not work and cause it to crash.. (i'm using what was said to, whcih were humanity icon theme
[17:36] <fagan> bcurtiswx: on my intel system unity+compiz doesnt even work
[17:37] <fagan> its really early so I presume there are some huge bugs
[17:37] <bcurtiswx_> fagan, yeah I hope that it improved drastically if they really want it out by Alpha1
[17:37] <bcurtiswx_> improves*
[17:37] <fagan> bcurtiswx: well if it was stuck in the default right now id have to go back to maverick
[17:38] <fagan> I wouldnt mind but compiz works perfect but shell and unity+compiz dont work at all
[17:38] <fagan> unity+mutter worked ok
[17:39] <bcurtiswx_> fagan, thankfully i have docky with a terminal icon.. otherwise switching off from ccsm would have been hard.. its off for me now as it doesn't work
[17:40] <bcurtiswx_> my alt+f2 wasn't working either..need to figure out how to get that back
[17:40] <fagan> alt+f2 wasnt in mutter+unity either
[17:40] <fagan> I think its a design thingy
[17:41] <fagan> I hope unity starts working on my laptop since ill be doing some work on it starting in march :/
[17:41] <bcurtiswx_> ah OK
[17:42] <bcurtiswx_> what type of work?
[17:42] <fagan> bcurtiswx: an internship for my college course
[17:42] <bcurtiswx_> nice, CS department?
[17:43] <fagan> well my course is software development
[17:43] <fagan> ill be doing odds and ends in unity for 6 months ish
[17:43] <bcurtiswx_> i should take a course in software dev.. im in model dev myself.. which is completely different
[17:43] <fagan> interesting
[17:45] <bcurtiswx_> i'd really like to create a linux app for displaying space weather conditions live... but i wouldn't even know where to start
[17:46] <fagan> bcurtiswx: that sounds a little insane :)
[17:46] <bcurtiswx_> which part? :P
[17:46] <fagan> the space weather :)
[17:46] <bcurtiswx_> thats my field.. computational sciences and informatics in space sciences and astrophysics
[17:47] <fagan> ah
[17:49] <bcurtiswx_> if i can create an app to take the already-available live measurements from satellites and use a GUI to allow easy display.. it would benefit a lot of people/agencies etc..
[17:50] <fagan> sounds cool
[17:50] <bcurtiswx_> yup, :) i consider it my ultimate goal.. since I would have to self-learn everything
[17:52] <fagan> bcurtiswx: well there is lots of docs out there and quickly is awesome for that kind of thing
[17:53] <bcurtiswx_> what exactly is quickly?
[17:53] <fagan> since it makes all of the packaging and building and ppa stuff easy
[17:53] <fagan> its just a set of templates and commands to make things more automated
[17:54] <fagan> it takes away most of the hard stuff and makes it so you can get down to coding
[17:54] <bcurtiswx_> fagan, i'll have to give it a look.  thx for the heads up
[17:54] <fagan> no problem
[18:03] <fagan> Ah now I get why its not working
[18:03] <fagan> compiz must have a problem after the last updat
[18:03] <fagan> *update
[18:05] <fagan> ill ask on monday about it and see if there is something weird going on
[18:48] <bcurtiswx_> fagan, great :)
[19:16] <kklimonda> ech, if all the effort tha has been put into quickly were put into creating a nice IDE.. we would probably get a code completion ;)
[20:09] <fagan> kklimonda: well geany has code completion
[20:10] <fagan> I love it for C/C++ because it knows about /include for the standard libs
[20:11] <kklimonda> fagan: when I say code completion I think Visual Assist X ;)
[20:12] <fagan> yeah
[20:12] <devildante> Visual Assist What there?
[20:12] <kklimonda> devildante: a plugin to visual studio that enchances its intellisense.
[20:13] <devildante> hmm, what does it do exactly to enhance?
[20:13] <devildante> it
[20:13] <fagan> intellisense is awesome as it is
[20:14]  * fagan is a fan although its very shameful to admit 
[20:14] <kklimonda> devildante: it's context aware for one
[20:15] <kklimonda> now that we have gobject introspection it's actually possible to write some cool stuff with it.
[20:15] <fagan> kklimonda: geany works from history as well as the common functions and others stuff
[20:15] <fagan> although it doesnt do gtk and other stuff
[20:15] <fagan> its only the base stuff
[20:15] <devildante> what's context aware? (sorry, n00b alert :p)
[20:17] <fagan> devildante: context aware is knowing when stuff is out of scope and stuff like that
[20:17] <fagan> and using == instead of =
[20:17] <devildante> ah
[20:17] <kklimonda> devildante: for example it's aware of argument types that function accepts and gives you only such suggestions (and only from things available in the current scope)
[20:17] <fagan> kklimonda: I beat you to it
[20:17] <fagan> :)
[20:17] <devildante> AWESOME
[20:18] <kklimonda> indeed
[20:18] <kklimonda> ^2 ;)
[20:18] <devildante> (I hate you now, you make me love visual studio :p)
[20:18] <kklimonda> devildante: don't worry - we all do
[20:19] <kklimonda> it's a secret of all FOSS developers - we all love visual studio. Those who don't just haven't used it ;)
[20:19] <fagan> devildante: microsoft actually do a good job with visual studio
[20:19] <fagan> I love the .msi maker thingy in it
[20:19] <devildante> we NEED a good ubuntu IDE
[20:19] <fagan> its something I really want for ubuntu
[20:19] <fagan> devildante: id say just make geany awesome
[20:19] <devildante> I actually thought of something like that some time before
[20:20] <fagan> its already half way there
[20:20] <kklimonda> the easier half ;)
[20:20] <fagan> well yeah
[20:20] <devildante> fagan: that's just an advanced text editor
[20:20] <kklimonda> devildante: we need all kind of stuff - good IDE, good interface for gdb, good profiler
[20:20] <fagan> we do have eclipse too
[20:20] <devildante> I love it, but it's not going to be an IDE
[20:20] <fagan> although its very annoying and bloated
[20:20] <devildante> kklimonda: yes :)
[20:20] <devildante> fagan: I think devs mainly use eclipse for java only
[20:21] <fagan> and netbeans although its not half as good as eclipse
[20:21] <fagan> devildante: well there are plugins for everything
[20:21] <devildante> fagan: I know, but it's mainly *used* for java ;)
[20:21] <kklimonda> and python
[20:21] <fagan> the python plugin is one of the most used
[20:21] <kklimonda> Pydev is a really good ide for python
[20:21] <devildante> hmm, I see
[20:22] <fagan> yeah kklimonda thats the one
[20:22] <fagan> there was a little bit of talk at the last uds about a ubuntu ide
[20:22] <fagan> but I dont know if there was any plans drawn up
[20:22] <kklimonda> fagan: every time a discussion about that starts someone brings quickly and it's the moment I stop caring ;)
[20:23] <kklimonda> I love quickly but it's like we are on a different page.
[20:23] <fagan> kklimonda: well quickly is awesome and we could do a projects thing for an ide made with it
[20:23] <devildante> I thought of three use cases for an Ubuntu IDE: packagers who can package apps and maintain them real quick, opportunistic devs, and big vs (adobe, etc.) who are what visual studio focuses on
[20:23] <devildante> kklimonda: that could be a use case :)
[20:23] <fagan> and the run, package and all the rest of the stuff could be used in an ide
[20:24] <devildante> yes
[20:24] <devildante> and we could even propose to propose it in extras.ubuntu.com/paid apps automatically (if it ever gets automatic at one point :p)
[20:24] <kklimonda> it will in next 10 years or so
[20:24] <fagan> devildante: extras isnt for paid apps
[20:24] <devildante> lol
[20:25] <kklimonda> maybe that's why I'm so frustrated lately
[20:25] <devildante> I know
[20:25] <kklimonda> we don't really have 10 years
[20:25] <devildante> kklimonda: we had 6 years, why can't we have another ten? ;)
[20:25] <fagan> hmmm well we need something like the android marketplace
[20:25] <devildante> fagan: that's USC
[20:25] <kklimonda> devildante: because more and more developers are swithing to the web development. It's the new FOSS.
[20:25] <fagan> I mean how to get apps in there
[20:26] <fagan> not the installer itself
[20:26] <devildante> fagan: that's extras.ubuntu.com ;)
[20:26] <fagan> not really
[20:26] <devildante> kklimonda: heh :) just wait and see
[20:26] <devildante> fagan: why?
[20:26] <fagan> extras is just for little small fire and forget apps
[20:27] <fagan> the android marketplace is a single place that you dump everything
[20:27] <kklimonda> devildante: I'm seeing it right now - there is a steady influx of developers in foss world but most of them are coming to web-oriented projects.
[20:27] <devildante> fagan: extras is still kind of a draft - maybe it will open up later :)
[20:28] <fagan> well I wouldnt bet on it
[20:28]  * fagan is on the ARB after all so id know 
[20:28] <kklimonda> fagan: android model is something we are aiming for
[20:28] <devildante> kklimonda: the core will always be there to develop :)
[20:28] <fagan> kklimonda: its what we need
[20:28] <kklimonda> fagan: not with extras but in general
[20:28] <kklimonda> devildante: but the core will sustain only so many developers.
[20:29] <kklimonda> devildante: Ubuntu will prevail as a system but will fail as a platform.
[20:29] <devildante> kklimonda: we need some feature in the core that web apps can't do, so users are happy and we can have more developers :p
[20:29] <fagan> well the ideal for me would be to have an easy way for developers to package up their app and just submit it and then have the users flag the bad ones like in the android marketplace
[20:29] <fagan> it would sustain itself
[20:29] <kklimonda> devildante: that's the problem - there isn't much that web apps can't do anymore or won't be able to do in next few years.
[20:29] <fagan> and have the same process for paid and unpaid apps
[20:30] <kklimonda> fagan: yes, it may sustain itself and it's a long-term goal afaik
[20:30] <devildante> fagan: can you just submit an app in the marketplace and be accepted? so it's not like App Store?
[20:31] <kklimonda> fagan: the real problem is how to get there
[20:31] <kklimonda> fagan: as someone at the UDS put it this goal is so far away we don't even see how to reach it right now.
[20:31] <devildante> kklimonda: doomsday scenario would be we would have to learn web programming - horror :p
[20:32] <fagan> devildante: in the android marketplace you dont need to get accepted
[20:32] <fagan> everything is
[20:32] <fagan> just think youtube
[20:32] <kklimonda> devildante: well, it's a failure for FOSS in general. cloud takes away users' freedom.
[20:32] <devildante> ah
[20:32] <fagan> anything bad gets flagged and pulled
[20:32] <fagan> so ratings bring the best to the top
[20:33] <devildante> fagan: that would beat the security advantage that repos have, I think
[20:33] <fagan> and the bad stuff either is at the very bottom and no one uses it or it get used and they get flagged
[20:33] <kklimonda> devildante: beat?
[20:33] <devildante> kklimonda: the cloud IS the problem ; web apps are not ;)
[20:33] <devildante> kklimonda: lol no :p
[20:34] <kklimonda> devildante: cloud isn't the problem; web apps are :P
[20:34] <devildante> wait what? :p
[20:34] <kklimonda> devildante: I can imagine a cloud controlled completely by the user
[20:34] <devildante> kklimonda: that would defeat its purpose, no?
[20:34] <kklimonda> devildante: but it works only as long as you have control over applications.
[20:34] <kklimonda> devildante: no, why?
[20:35] <devildante> kklimonda: I simply don't see a use case for it... perhaps you could show it to me?
[20:35] <kklimonda> devildante: you can do it like that - put couchdb on some remote server and sync it with your computer.
[20:35] <devildante> :)
[20:36] <kklimonda> devildante: you get cloud advantage - remote access to data and you keep your data with you at all times
[20:36] <devildante> kklimonda: big companies like google wouldn't be pushing the cloud if this were so simple
[20:36] <kklimonda> (it can even work without any remote server but is harder to configure)
[20:36] <devildante> oh?
[20:36] <kklimonda> devildante: they care about your data
[20:36] <fagan> googles app engine is a cloud
[20:37] <devildante> kklimonda: but you can't just set up a remote server ; at least, the average user wouldn't do it
[20:37] <kklimonda> devildante: yes - but then in my perfect world various companies would provide hosting for cocuhdb instances. (actually, two companies do that already)
[20:37] <devildante> kklimonda: which are? (interested)
[20:38] <kklimonda> devildante: couch.io is one
[20:38] <kklimonda> devildante: oh, right - Canonical is second
[20:39] <devildante> kklimonda: Ubuntu one is not FOSS on the server side
[20:39] <kklimonda> devildante: but you can use them as a couchdb instance providers.
[20:39] <devildante> hmm, yah
[20:39] <fagan> devildante: it is couchdb serverside
[20:40] <fagan> the magic is how everything works together
[20:40] <devildante> kklimonda: but what guarantees the company won't sneak on your data?
[20:40] <devildante> fagan: aah
[20:40] <kklimonda> fagan: well, file syncing isn't couchdb
[20:40] <fagan> kklimonda: well couchdb can store objects
[20:42] <kklimonda> devildante: sure - there is none. But there is none currently with other cloud providers. What you get from couchdb is that you always have your data backed up on your hardware and you can always take it with you to another company.
[20:42] <kklimonda> fagan: yes, it can - but it's not how u1 file syncing is being done afaik
[20:42] <fagan> Well unless you work on the U1 team you wouldnt really know
[20:42] <kklimonda> devildante: also, you can keep all the data encrypted on their server.
[20:43] <devildante> kklimonda: that's interesting
[20:43] <kklimonda> fagan: files are being stored in Amazon S3
[20:43] <fagan> kklimonda: yeah I knew that
[20:43] <fagan> the entire U1 is a cloud instance on amazon
[20:43] <kklimonda> fagan: couchdb doesn't store attachments separate from database and in separate files.
[20:44] <kklimonda> fagan: so you would have to put and pull entire database from S3.
[20:44] <fagan> yeah your right but you can simulate folders with tables
[20:44] <devildante> kklimonda: encrypted cloud would be win win
[20:45] <devildante> kklimonda: but then it would only serve as a backup - idea of cloud computing is that web apps interact with your data
[20:45] <fagan> devildante: well U1 is encrypted in a way because couchdb has it built in with its username and password access protocals
[20:46] <fagan> it is secure
[20:46] <devildante> fagan: YAY :)
[20:46] <kklimonda> devildante: yes, if you want web apps to interact with your data there is no way around it.
[20:47] <kklimonda> devildante: but I see cloud (without computing) as a mean to have access to your data from all around the world but with desktop tools.
[20:47] <fagan> it just doesnt really look all that secure since all of that stuff is handled with oath
[20:47] <fagan> so its all done in the background and unlocked when you log in
[20:47] <devildante> kklimonda: so web apps should be avoided
[20:48] <kklimonda> devildante: from my point of view - yes
[20:48] <devildante> fagan: oauth is the devil as of right now, as I understood (but I'm afraid I didn't understand well :p)
[20:48] <chrisccoulson> this channel is pretty active for a saturday evening!
[20:48] <chrisccoulson> normally it's dead in here ;)
[20:48] <kklimonda> chrisccoulson: if only our discussion were on topic ;)
[20:48] <fagan> chrisccoulson: we are having a great converstation :)
[20:49] <chrisccoulson> heh :)
[20:49] <devildante> kklimonda: lol
[20:49] <fagan> kklimonda: it is kinda slightly on topic
[20:49] <kklimonda> well, very slightly :)
[20:49] <kklimonda> but no one complains!
[20:49] <fagan> we arent talking about hairstyles or anything
[20:49] <devildante> fagan: we were talking about IDEs, remember? :p
[20:49] <kklimonda> true
[20:49] <kklimonda> chrisccoulson: oh, now that you are here
[20:49] <chrisccoulson> lol
[20:49]  * chrisccoulson goes and opens wine
[20:49] <fagan> hehe
[20:50] <kklimonda> chrisccoulson: can you think of any reason why X uses ~25% when I have firefox window maximized?
[20:50] <chrisccoulson> what sort of content is it displaying?
[20:50] <devildante> chrisccoulson: no, you must not emulate windows progr- wait, is that real wine? :p
[20:50] <kklimonda> I think it doesn't happen with metacity - only with compiz
[20:51] <chrisccoulson> is it any particular website that does it?
[20:51] <kklimonda> chrisccoulson: it's actually more complicated - it seems to be related to gnome-terminal
[20:51] <chrisccoulson> heh, that's weird
[20:51] <kklimonda> chrisccoulson: content of the website doesn't matter but when Firefox window is maximized and I do something that involves lots of scrolling in gnome-terminal it's slow
[20:52] <kklimonda> the moment I minimize firefox it's fast again :/
[20:52] <chrisccoulson> hmmm, do you have transparency in gnome-terminal?
[20:52] <fagan> hmmmm does anyone know if the ARM guys have the Toshiba AC100 working right yet
[20:52] <kklimonda> yes - but it's on a different virtual desktop
[20:53] <kklimonda> fagan: they didn't have on UDS - well, not completetly
[20:53] <fagan> kklimonda: if it is working by 11.04 ill get one
[20:53] <fagan> its €278 in ireland
[20:54] <fagan> :)
[20:54] <kklimonda> fagan: it's hard to tell how much will they get done before 11.04 - the hardware is.. exotic ;)
[20:54] <fagan> kklimonda: it does look awesome though
[20:54] <kklimonda> yes, and it's featherlight.
[20:55] <fagan> well id say ill get one anyway since android is working ok with it
[20:55] <kklimonda> android.. meh ;)
[20:56] <fagan> well id prefer unity but android will do for the time being
[20:56] <fagan> and there is a lot of bloatware from toshiba on it too which I dont like
[20:57] <kklimonda> the mmc is pretty slow though
[20:57] <fagan> its 1ghz
[20:57] <fagan> so its just a little slower than an atom
[20:58] <kklimonda> mmc - the storage slot.
[20:58] <fagan> oh I thought that was something got to do with the processor
[20:58] <fagan> the storage I dont mind
[20:58] <kklimonda> it's slooow :P
[20:59] <fagan> I just want something to go on the internet and do some coding on the go
[20:59] <kklimonda> the guy who showed it to me complained about it.
[20:59] <fagan> hehe
[21:00] <fagan> kklimonda: and the AC100 is smaller than the new macbook air so it is awesome just for tha t
[21:00] <fagan> *that
[21:01] <devildante> fagan: Coding? on a slow processor? I hope you only do python dev :p
[21:01] <fagan> devildante: well I commit all my crap then compile it on another computer anyway
[21:01] <fagan> ive been doing that for months now
[21:02]  * fagan is on a 1ghz piece of crap laptop 
[21:02] <fagan> (its so old)
[21:02] <chrisccoulson> kklimonda, oh, firefox sort-of does it here too, but it doesn't matter if i have gnome-terminal open ;)
[21:04] <kklimonda> heh
[21:04] <devildante> fagan: what if you want to compile for arm? :p
[21:04] <fagan> devildante: I wouldnt hehe
[21:04] <kklimonda> devildante: he'll use our awesome cross-compiler
[21:04] <devildante> kklimonda: ah yes I forgot
[21:05] <fagan> well devildante I could use the magic buildfarm
[21:06] <fagan> I wouldnt need to compile stuff on arm except my crappy little college insane programs
[21:40] <fagan> huh there are more buildbots for arm than 32bit
[21:42] <Nafallo> how is that surprising?
[21:42] <Nafallo> ARMs take longer to build stuff.
[22:14] <fagan> Nafallo: for instance python stuff is all built on the 32bit builders but still it only has 4 compared to the 6 for arm
[22:14] <fagan> I just found it a little odd
[22:15] <fagan> but I suppose all the rebuilds that happened last cycle probably makes it worth sticking all those bots onto arm
[22:16] <Laney> arm quite regularly falls behind the other arches
[22:16] <fagan> interesting
[22:17] <kklimonda> it's much slower - all you need is a firefox release for it to fall behind ;)
[22:17] <kklimonda> or some dependency failing to build.
[22:17] <fagan> I forgot about all the build failures
[22:54] <chrisccoulson> kklimonda, yeah, that's normally my fault ;)