[10:11]  * persia peers about
[13:00]  * davidm wonders what persia is looking for?
[13:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[13:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
[13:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:00] <NCommander> bot is laggy this morning
[13:00] <ogra_ac> roll call ?
[13:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101116
[13:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20101116
[13:00] <NCommander> If your not here, say I
[13:00]  * ogra_ac added some topics today
[13:00] <GrueMaster> I
[13:01] <ogra_ac> the indentation of bullet lists is broken :'-(
[13:01] <ogra_ac> with the new theme ...
[13:01] <rsalveti> :-(
[13:01]  * NCommander didn't notice
[13:01] <davidm> I am not here
[13:01] <NCommander> <- *doesn't use the standard theme :-(*
[13:02] <NCommander> oh good, davidm is not here, we can skip the meeting :-)
[13:02]  * NCommander runs
[13:02] <ogra_ac> nah, we cant
[13:02]  * NCommander pokes persia 
[13:02] <NCommander> damn it, I was tlaking with him less than an hour ago
[13:02] <NCommander> meh
[13:02] <NCommander> anyway
[13:02] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[13:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[13:03] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to track down why NCommander's specs aren't on the tracker and to have that fixed
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to track down why NCommander's specs aren't on the tracker and to have that fixed
[13:03] <NCommander> Resolved. ogra told me I have to have them set for Approved
[13:03] <ogra_ac> done, davidm needs to approve for natty
[13:03] <ogra_ac> (i would have done it but i dont have the lever)
[13:03] <rsalveti> I also have one that I just noticed that needs to be approved for natty
[13:03] <ogra_ac> approver needs to do it
[13:04] <rsalveti> davidm: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/multimedia-arm-gles-in-ubuntu :-)
[13:04] <rsalveti> didn't got on my list when i send you to approve because asac created it just before uds
[13:04] <NCommander> davidm: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-userland-subarch-detection & https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-natty-improved-subarch-detection
[13:04] <NCommander> :-)
[13:05] <NCommander> anyway
[13:05] <ogra_ac> userland is fine
[13:05] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to supervise pre-installed omap4 images for Alpha 1
[13:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to supervise pre-installed omap4 images for Alpha 1
[13:05] <NCommander> We hav eimages!
[13:05]  * ogra_ac did that
[13:05] <NCommander> indeed
[13:05] <NCommander> nice work :-)
[13:05] <ogra_ac> yes, but only through an evil hack lool did
[13:05] <rsalveti> heheh
[13:06] <NCommander> ogra_ac: there's another type of hack?
[13:06] <ogra_ac> i hope we can keep it until the bug is fixed
[13:06] <NCommander> ogra_ac: what's the hack for reference sake?
[13:06] <ogra_ac> Bug 674146
[13:06] <NCommander> ugh
[13:06] <NCommander> I saw that one
[13:06] <ogra_ac> yes
[13:06] <rsalveti> ugly one
[13:06] <NCommander> that's a hack
[13:06] <rsalveti> interesting compiler behavior
[13:06] <ogra_ac> images build now though
[13:06] <NCommander> x-loader is also FTBFS. I looked at it for a bit but didn't get anywhere
[13:07] <ogra_ac> NCommander, my job
[13:07] <davidm> rsajdok, NCommander BP taken care of
[13:07] <rsalveti> I can help fixing x-loader too
[13:07] <NCommander> Qt should get resolved sometime this week.
[13:07]  * NCommander is thorugh most of his email and is just summerizing
[13:07] <NCommander> so I think we're actually on track to meet alpha 1
[13:07] <ogra_ac> rsalveti, would you take that, and also re-integrate lools changes to the packaging ?
[13:07] <rsalveti> ogra_ac: no news from qt with full neon support
[13:07] <NCommander> (that's a first)
[13:07] <rsalveti> ogra_ac: sure, np
[13:07] <ogra_ac> rsalveti, i'll re-upload the static no-NEON build on friday
[13:08] <rsalveti> ogra_ac: nice
[13:08] <ogra_ac> ScottK, ^^^^
[13:08] <rsalveti> unfortunately the neon automatically detection is broken upstream
[13:08] <ogra_ac> yes
[13:08] <rsalveti> nobody ever tested it
[13:08] <ogra_ac> and likely in natty as well
[13:09] <rsalveti> so it's not something that will be easily backported
[13:09] <rsalveti> sure
[13:09] <NCommander> rsalveti: qt has a few growing pains when dealing with various ARM configuraitons.
[13:09] <ogra_ac> though i hope upstream will have fixed it within natty timeframe
[13:09] <ogra_ac> what do we do about natty though ?
[13:09] <rsalveti> NCommander: interesting that nokia pays to be well supported at arm :-)
[13:09] <ogra_ac> keep it broken or do the same static fix until upstream tells us its fixed ?
[13:09] <NCommander> rsalveti: no comment.
[13:10] <ogra_ac> davidm, ^^^ any suggestion ?
[13:10] <NCommander> ogra_ac: static fix? (I'm blanking on what your referring to)
[13:10] <ogra_ac> NCommander, read the bug :P
[13:10] <rsalveti> ogra_ac: for natty I'd say we could go with a similar fix
[13:10] <rsalveti> we don't have the post release regression on it
[13:10] <ogra_ac> Bug 664431
[13:10] <NCommander> oh
[13:10] <NCommander> that bug
[13:11] <NCommander> ugh
[13:11] <ScottK> ogra_ac: Can we publish NEON .debs somewhere for the people wher are using Qt on NEON devices?
[13:11] <rsalveti> so we're ok to disable it for now, and then enable it as an additional feature
[13:11] <NCommander> explains why KDE segfaulted on Dove
[13:11]  * NCommander coughs
[13:11] <ogra_ac> ScottK, as soon as davidm's PPA spec is implemented we can offer a PPA
[13:11] <rsalveti> ScottK: I can put it on a ppa and post the link
[13:11] <ogra_ac> or what rsalveti says
[13:11] <rsalveti> can get that action
[13:11] <ogra_ac> ScottK, plan for natty is to have public arm PPAs for everyone
[13:12] <davidm> The PPA spec is in progress but it's going to take a couple of months to get the hardware all in
[13:12] <ogra_ac> so you should then just be able to do it yourself
[13:12] <ogra_ac> davidm, what about neon ?
[13:12] <ogra_ac> (see above)
[13:12] <ScottK> ogra_ac: I understand, but I'm concerned about the regression for people with NEON devices running Qt (of which I know there are some).
[13:12] <ogra_ac> ScottK, yes, understood, rsalveti will do a build in our team PPA and make that public
[13:13] <ogra_ac> NCommander, action ^^^
[13:13] <NCommander> davidm: I looked at the spec, and I have some places where I need to make changes, but I need to talk with IS and the LP gearheads to make sure all my ducks are in a row before I'll have the implementation part finalized for you
[13:13] <ScottK> BTW, my latest Qt build finished in less than 12 hours with three systems sharing the build via icecc.
[13:13] <NCommander> [action] rsalveti to create NEON enabled Qt build and post it publicly
[13:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  rsalveti to create NEON enabled Qt build and post it publicly
[13:13] <NCommander> ScottK: Qt works great with icecc. OO.o, not so much :-(
[13:14] <rsalveti> ogra_ac: then lets push the same fix for natty, at least for now
[13:14] <ogra_ac> gah, i had another point i missed to add to the meeting page
[13:14] <rsalveti> we'll have more people using it as ac100 is all around
[13:14] <ogra_ac> rsalveti, yes, i wanted to hear that from davidm
[13:14] <ogra_ac> :)
[13:14] <ogra_ac> i think we both agree, but i want some higher authority to blame ;)
[13:15] <rsalveti> haha :-)
[13:15] <rsalveti> fair enough
[13:15]  * NCommander coughs andmoves on
[13:15] <NCommander> [action] ogra_ac and rsalveti to talk to davidm on proper approach to fix Qt
[13:15] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra_ac and rsalveti to talk to davidm on proper approach to fix Qt
[13:16] <NCommander> [topic] Special Items
[13:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Special Items
[13:16] <NCommander> [topic] canonical-mobile was completely deleted and replaced by canonical-arm
[13:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  canonical-mobile was completely deleted and replaced by canonical-arm
[13:16] <NCommander> why is this on here?
[13:16] <NCommander> This is the Ubuntu Mobile meeting, not the Canonical ARM one.
[13:16] <rsalveti> well, we can change ;-)
[13:16] <NCommander> (incidently, the work item tracker needs to be changed to track ubuntu-armel, and NOT canonical-arm)
[13:17] <ogra_ac> NCommander, ubuntu-mobile doesnt exist anymore
[13:17] <NCommander> ogra_ac: so the name of the meeting is an artifact
[13:17] <NCommander> that can be fixed, its the Ubuntu ARM Meeting now :-P
[13:17] <ogra_ac> the next two points would have been indended suppoints
[13:17] <ogra_ac> *sub
[13:18] <GrueMaster> That's how they appear here.
[13:18] <ogra_ac> and are the actual bulletpoints
[13:18] <ogra_ac> GrueMaster, not with the new theme
[13:18] <NCommander> ogra_ac: some of us have custom themes set
[13:18] <NCommander> anyway
[13:18] <davidm> ogra, neon needs to be in libs not hard compiled in
[13:18] <ogra_ac> davidm, thanks !
[13:18] <ogra_ac> so: there might be some fallout, please everyone check if i.e. PPA access for important PPAs is missing etc.
[13:18] <NCommander> GrueMaster: can you look at the bug lists, and make sure we have ubuntu-armel properly subscribed?
[13:18] <davidm> until there is no hardware that does not support neon that is how it has to be
[13:19] <NCommander> (it should be in all places, since that team wasn't renamed, but ...)
[13:19] <ogra_ac> right
[13:19] <ogra_ac> please everyone check their PPA accresses etc
[13:19] <ogra_ac> since there might have been team PPAs we could access through canonical-mobile membership
[13:19] <ogra_ac> if you find anything, please ping me
[13:19] <ogra_ac> NCommander, action for all ^^^
[13:19] <NCommander> ogra_ac: wrong venue for ~canonical-mobile/~canonica-arm stuff.
[13:19] <NCommander> Seriously
[13:20] <NCommander> [topic] cloosing down of the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
[13:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  cloosing down of the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
[13:20] <NCommander> do we have an ubuntu-arm(el) mailing list?
[13:20] <ogra_ac> no
[13:20] <lool> ogra_ac: [ Ain't a hack and ain't that evil! ]
[13:20] <rsalveti> no yet
[13:20] <ogra_ac> lool, heh
[13:20] <lool> Just a taste thing
[13:21] <ogra_ac> we wont have an arm ML
[13:21] <ogra_ac> doesnt make sense
[13:21] <ogra_ac> adn with the vanishing of ubuntu-mobile the ML needs to go
[13:21] <NCommander> lool: I'm guessing evil in France is different than evil in the rest of the world ;-)
[13:21] <ogra_ac> davidm wants to close it down soon
[13:21]  * NCommander runs
[13:21] <rsalveti> why don't we have a m-l?
[13:21] <rsalveti> I mean, an arm one
[13:21] <NCommander> ogra_ac: I'd like a mailing list for armel (or at least ports in general)
[13:21] <davidm> there is virtually no traffic except spam on the ML
[13:21] <ogra_ac> what for would we need one ?
[13:21] <NCommander> davidm: well, that and the mailing annoucements
[13:21] <ogra_ac> we dont have an amd64 one either
[13:22] <ogra_ac> nora a sparc or hppa one
[13:22] <NCommander> ogra_ac: cause amd64 is a mainline arch
[13:22] <davidm> the ubuntu-devel is more then good enough
[13:22] <NCommander> powerpc has one
[13:22] <ogra_ac> ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-devel-discuss should serve our needs
[13:22] <davidm> so?
[13:22] <NCommander> fair enough
[13:22] <NCommander> Who's tasked with shooting the u-mobile list dead?
[13:22] <ogra_ac> davidm
[13:22] <davidm> I can file the rt ticket to kill it
[13:23] <ogra_ac> NCommander, just make sure to send the meeting announcements to -desvel now
[13:23] <NCommander> [action] davidm to archive the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
[13:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to archive the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
[13:23] <NCommander> ogra_ac: will do
[13:23] <ogra_ac> action ?
[13:23] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to send mailing list annoucements to u-devel
[13:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to send mailing list annoucements to u-devel
[13:23] <ogra_ac> :)
[13:23]  * NCommander doesn't quite type that fast
[13:23] <NCommander> :-P
[13:23] <ogra_ac> btw, i added another bullet point after meeting time
[13:23] <NCommander> [topic] New meeting time
[13:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  New meeting time
[13:23] <ogra_ac> (please reload wiki if you havent)
[13:24] <NCommander> Since we've recently had some regulars in this change and/or relocated, I think we should look at moving the metting
[13:24] <ogra_ac> the metting ;)
[13:24] <ogra_ac> (mett is chopped meat in german ;) )
[13:24] <NCommander> (plus those of us on the pacific time or further west have been shafted now for the last 6 months, someone else needs this pain)
[13:25] <NCommander> I'm proposing we simply move the meeting by 12 hours
[13:25]  * rsalveti doesn't like that
[13:25] <ogra_ac> well, lets ask persia
[13:25] <davidm> NCommander, I recomend we shelf this untl next week
[13:25] <ogra_ac> 12h ?!?
[13:25] <NCommander> davidm: fair enough
[13:25] <ogra_ac> thats 2am in europe
[13:25] <NCommander> ogra_ac: yeah, that would be 17:00 here
[13:25] <davidm> And we need to look at all times not a 12 hour shift
[13:25] <GrueMaster> persia is looking into available timeslots with the idea of being more TI friendly.
[13:25]  * ogra_ac refuses to have two nightly meetings
[13:26] <NCommander> right, so here's what we do
[13:26] <ogra_ac> GrueMaster, TI is mainly Nice nowadays
[13:26] <GrueMaster> We had a discussion about this last night.
[13:26] <NCommander> [action] everyone to put proposals of new times (and days) on the wiki
[13:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone to put proposals of new times (and days) on the wiki
[13:26] <ogra_ac> so it should be european workhours
[13:26] <NCommander> [action] davidm + persia to get input from TI on recommended times
[13:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm + persia to get input from TI on recommended times
[13:26] <NCommander> And then next week we're determine when is the best time.
[13:26] <NCommander> k?
[13:26] <ogra_ac> ++
[13:27] <NCommander> moving on :-)
[13:27] <NCommander> [topic] the return of openoffice on arm images due to desktop team merging the seeds
[13:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  the return of openoffice on arm images due to desktop team merging the seeds
[13:27] <ogra_ac> just a warning ;)
[13:27]  * NCommander goes to cry in the corner with this topic
[13:27] <ogra_ac> for the OO.o lovers among us
[13:27] <NCommander> Please, don't let Oracle touch me. It burns!
[13:27] <ogra_ac> -desktop team will merge the seeds
[13:27] <ogra_ac> and only build a single image
[13:27] <ogra_ac> we might or might not differ in that
[13:27] <NCommander> ogra_ac: sounds like we need to get spice seeds this cycle then to prevent this. OO.o + ARM sucks
[13:28] <ogra_ac> i have a workitem on their spec to research that
[13:28] <NCommander> or at least an architecture specific exclusion
[13:28] <GrueMaster> I believe it was announced that we will be moving to LibreOffice.
[13:28] <davidm> Sounds like we are going to need an ARM seed to me
[13:28] <ogra_ac> NCommander, we might need to build desktop images this cycle
[13:28] <NCommander> ogra_ac: well persia came up with a possible lead to find the missing notes so we might get lucky
[13:28] <ogra_ac> davidm, i wouldnt like that if we can avoid it
[13:28] <NCommander> ogra_ac: *wince*. Bad things happen when we try and remove OO.o from desktop
[13:28] <ogra_ac> not anymore
[13:28] <NCommander> ogra_ac: would or wouldn't?
[13:28] <ogra_ac> wouldnt
[13:28] <davidm> I don't want OO back on the build it takes to much room
[13:29] <ogra_ac> i'd like to go with one seed
[13:29] <NCommander> I don't want OO.o cause we're almost out of cows to sacirife to keep it going
[13:29] <davidm> I'd love to go with one seed if it meets our needs, which OO does not
[13:29] <ogra_ac> but the question is how technically hard that is
[13:29] <NCommander> ogra_ac: I'll take this action item
[13:29] <ogra_ac> davidm, on desktop images ?
[13:29] <davidm> Also we don't have mono working still
[13:29] <NCommander> and research if we can sanely exclude OOo if we build desktop in fair of something (anything) else
[13:29] <NCommander> davidm: OOo doesn't depend on mono (yet), just java
[13:29] <davidm> ogra, not at the moment
[13:29] <ogra_ac> NCommander, preferably i dont want us to have the extra work to keep seeds in sync
[13:29] <NCommander> though I think openjdk is kinda foobar'ed
[13:30] <ogra_ac> ??
[13:30] <davidm> NCommander,  but the new audio player for desktrop does I think
[13:30] <ogra_ac> openjdk is fine
[13:30] <NCommander> ogra_ac: what I'm hoping is we can do one seed, but get OOo off our images
[13:30] <ogra_ac> we can
[13:30] <ogra_ac> thats no prob
[13:30] <NCommander> ogra_ac: I'll look into it, I have to touch germinate anyway for other stuff
[13:30] <ogra_ac> we fixed that in lucid
[13:30] <NCommander> ogra_ac: oh, is it more of a question "do we want to exclude it?"
[13:30]  * GrueMaster shudders at the QA implications of OO.o on the images.
[13:30] <ogra_ac> NCommander, right
[13:30] <ogra_ac> NCommander, and accroding to davidm we dont want OO.o
[13:30] <NCommander> GrueMaster: we'll have to sacrifice one of the bodies to keep the beast happy
[13:31] <davidm> and we don't want mono apps
[13:31] <ogra_ac> we need to take care for OO.o anyway
[13:31] <ogra_ac> if its on the images or not
[13:31] <davidm> seperate problem but a problem non the less
[13:31] <ogra_ac> so i dont see the issue why it matters if we have it on the desktop images
[13:31] <NCommander> If there is no contractual requirement for Canonical-provided images, and if there's no demand for it on community-provided images, then I'm happy to leave it off
[13:31] <NCommander> ogra_ac: out of site, out of mind ;-)
[13:31] <ogra_ac> NCommander, we still need to take care for it
[13:32] <NCommander> ogra_ac: although granted, with the migration to libreoffice, at least we can drop most of the patches since we won't have issues with upstream
[13:32] <ogra_ac> its a main app we are bound to make sure works
[13:32] <NCommander> ogra_ac: yes, but if its on the image, we have to make sure it works well :-P
[13:32]  * ogra_ac doesnt see much difference between libre and openoffice yet
[13:32] <ogra_ac> i assume for natty the code wont much differ
[13:32] <NCommander> ogra_ac: its more that we won't have issues with getting upstream to accept patches
[13:33] <ogra_ac> we always have to make sure it works well
[13:33] <NCommander> Sun's upstremaing guidelines were ... painful
[13:33] <ogra_ac> ah, yeah, patching should be easier
[13:33] <NCommander> ogra_ac: indeed
[13:33] <NCommander> I'm of leaving it off the images
[13:33] <ogra_ac> i dont really care
[13:33] <NCommander> *for
[13:33] <ogra_ac> i wouldnt mind having it on desktop images
[13:34] <ogra_ac> not on netbook though
[13:34] <NCommander> davidm: do we care about OOo being shipped? We can exclude it on a per-architecture basis and re-add it on a per image basis (if spice seeds materialize) if we need it
[13:34] <davidm> Currently we are not planning on desktop images
[13:34] <ogra_ac> (its not clear yet if we *will* build desktop at all)
[13:34] <ogra_ac> right
[13:34] <davidm> For ARM netbooks OO was overkill
[13:34] <ogra_ac> yes
[13:35] <NCommander> ogra_ac: I think we should stick a pin in this discussion and only revisit of desktop images materialize
[13:35] <NCommander> davidm: s/was/is/g
[13:35] <ogra_ac> i just would like to sick as close to the desktop seed as possible for images
[13:35] <ogra_ac> NCommander, good idea
[13:36] <NCommander> I think we're all agreed that we're not putting OO.o on the netbook images short of a contractual requirement to do so (or strong community demand which I consider unlikely)
[13:36] <NCommander> BTW
[13:36] <NCommander> In response to earlier feedback
[13:36] <ogra_ac> no, no OO.o on netbook, in any case
[13:36] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to eBay his soul to fix mono on ARM
[13:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to eBay his soul to fix mono on ARM
[13:36] <NCommander> :-)
[13:36] <ogra_ac> heh, who would bid on that ?
[13:36] <NCommander> ouch.
[13:36] <rsalveti> heheh, true
[13:37] <ogra_ac> or do you plan a buy now offer ?
[13:37] <rsalveti> and you're brave to try to fix mono
[13:37] <NCommander> With friends like you, who needs enemies?
[13:37] <NCommander> :_p
[13:37] <ogra_ac> heh
[13:37] <ogra_ac> we love you, you know that :)
[13:37] <NCommander> rsalveti: meh. mono isn't a re-implementation of Windows COM. It at least has comments in the code base
[13:38] <ogra_ac> in any case rhythmbox will stay in the supported set of apps
[13:38] <rsalveti> NCommander: but is a pain :-)
[13:38] <NCommander> ogra_ac: all abusers say that :-P *runs*
[13:38] <ogra_ac> so we can happily go on shipping it
[13:38] <NCommander> rsalveti: I did some work on mono on ARM last time it blew up
[13:38] <NCommander> so I have a general idea of what might be going wrong
[13:38] <rsalveti> oh can, I'm happy I'm not the one to fix it
[13:38] <ogra_ac> tomboy is the only mono app we currently have
[13:38] <rsalveti> *oh, ok
[13:38] <NCommander> oh crap
[13:38] <NCommander> damn it
[13:38] <ogra_ac> in our images
[13:38] <ogra_ac> hmm, and gwibber possibly
[13:38] <NCommander> why didn't I drink coffee earlier, I just enlisted for a world of pain :-/
[13:39] <NCommander> ogra_ac: we want it fixed anyway :-/
[13:39] <ogra_ac> we do
[13:39] <ogra_ac> though
[13:39] <NCommander> mono been mostly foobar'ed since karmic(?)
[13:39] <ogra_ac> please coordinate with linaro
[13:39] <NCommander> none of us could really look into it lucid
[13:39] <ogra_ac> specifically with slangasek's team
[13:39] <NCommander> ogra_ac: has anyone in linaro looked into it?
[13:39] <ogra_ac> no, but the linaro platform team cares for such stuff
[13:39] <rsalveti> no one is interested, I believe
[13:39] <ogra_ac> so work together with them
[13:40] <ogra_ac> i pointed slangasek to it last release, but i think nobody had time over there
[13:40] <ogra_ac> so i guess they appreciate if you work on it
[13:40] <NCommander> ogra_ac: where's the existing mono is broken bug
[13:40] <ogra_ac> use their resources if you need to though
[13:40] <ogra_ac> no idea from the top of my head
[13:41] <ogra_ac> let me look that up after meeting
[13:41]  * GrueMaster looks.
[13:41] <ogra_ac> or that ;)
[13:41] <NCommander> right
[13:41] <NCommander> anyway
[13:41] <NCommander> moving on, I don't want to run over
[13:41] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[13:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[13:41] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
[13:41] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
[13:41] <GrueMaster> (mono) Bug #561874
[13:41] <NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-alpha-1.html
[13:41] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-alpha-1.html
[13:41] <ogra_ac> did GrueMaster take the action for fixing the assigned bugs list above ?
[13:42] <ogra_ac> the WI list isnt complete yet
[13:42] <ogra_ac> needs another tracker run
[13:42] <GrueMaster> Will do.  Actually I need to ping marjo for this.
[13:42] <ogra_ac> GrueMaster, thanks
[13:42] <ogra_ac> NCommander, action ^^^
[13:42] <NCommander> [action] GrueMaster to fix assigned bugs
[13:42] <MootBot> ACTION received:  GrueMaster to fix assigned bugs
[13:42] <GrueMaster> (mono) Bug #619981
[13:42] <NCommander> hrm
[13:42] <NCommander> That action item seems like it could be worded better :-)
[13:42] <ogra_ac> lol
[13:43] <ogra_ac> well, i dont mind
[13:43] <ogra_ac> you should say "assigned to ubuntu-armel" ;)
[13:43] <GrueMaster> Yea, and you want them fixed...when?
[13:43] <ogra_ac> alpha 1 please
[13:43] <NCommander> GrueMaster: tonight preferable ;-)
[13:43] <ogra_ac> :P
[13:43] <NCommander> [topic] http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html
[13:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html
[13:43] <ogra_ac> that will break with the next run
[13:43] <NCommander> k
[13:43]  * GrueMaster increases rent, decreases heat upstairs.
[13:43] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
[13:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
[13:44] <ogra_ac> canonical-mobile doesnt exist anymore
[13:44] <ogra_ac> NCommander, that needs cleanup
[13:44] <NCommander> GrueMaster: don't worry, I have all your hatred aimed at me to keep me warm
[13:44] <ogra_ac> no mpoirier or lag anymore
[13:44] <NCommander> yay, we fixed the issue of lag on the internet!
[13:44] <ogra_ac> we moved the lag to linaro ;)
[13:45] <NCommander> that explains so much
[13:45] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
[13:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
[13:45] <GrueMaster> Nothing to report.  Checkbox customization is WIP.
[13:45] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
[13:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander)
[13:45] <NCommander> not quite a diaster as when I left on VAC, thanks ogra
[13:46] <ogra_ac> I don't have time to wait for the right point in the meeting as I'm about to leave here.  I wanted to make sure people knew that Bug #675347 is now the blocker for Qt/KDE stuff on arm and hopefully you can convince someone to fix it soon.
[13:46] <NCommander> Once Qt is fixed, KDE should just build with a few minor whacks. ScottK is handling this mostly
[13:46] <ogra_ac> from ScottK
[13:46] <ogra_ac> (he pinged me in PM)
[13:46] <NCommander> ogra_ac: thanks
[13:46] <ogra_ac> so thats one biggie
[13:46] <NCommander> Right, other than that, the list is pretty simple, and not too many ARM specific in main
[13:47] <NCommander> Once Qt/KDE gets fixed, I'm going to ask for a universe mass-giveback as theirs a lot of breakage there that's just archive skew
[13:47] <ogra_ac> nothing blocks image builds atm at least
[13:47] <NCommander> indeed
[13:47] <NCommander> so, moving on
[13:47] <ogra_ac> we need to look into it nontheless
[13:47] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[13:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
[13:47] <ogra_ac> we have omap4
[13:47] <NCommander> WE HAVE IMAGES! (thanks ogra)
[13:47] <ogra_ac> for omap3 the kernel status isnt clear yet
[13:48] <ogra_ac> (see my discussion on the MLs)
[13:48] <ogra_ac> someone needs to take security responsibility for omap3
[13:48] <ogra_ac> then we can use linaros kernel
[13:48] <ogra_ac> until thats clear we wont have omap3
[13:48] <NCommander> [action] ogra to follow up on omap3 situation with Linaro's kernle team
[13:48] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to follow up on omap3 situation with Linaro's kernle team
[13:48] <ogra_ac> (sorry for the image build mails until then)
[13:49] <rsalveti> actually this needs to be followed with ubuntu's kernel and security team
[13:49] <ogra_ac> NCommander, has nothing to do with linaros kernel team
[13:49] <ogra_ac> please remove that action
[13:49] <NCommander> striken
[13:49] <ogra_ac> (and read the ML thread first :P )
[13:49] <NCommander> ogra_ac: I did, I thought Linaro was saying they were going to take the kernel.
[13:49] <ogra_ac> ubuntus kernel and security teams have the ball atm
[13:49] <ogra_ac> as rsalveti said
[13:49] <NCommander> d'oh
[13:50] <NCommander> [action] ogra_ac to follow omap3 kernel situation
[13:50] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra_ac to follow omap3 kernel situation
[13:50] <ogra_ac> and nobody but manjo answered the thread yet
[13:50] <ogra_ac> (with an unrelated comment)
[13:50] <ogra_ac> the kernel team is well aware
[13:51] <ogra_ac> i raised it in their last meeting
[13:51] <ogra_ac> but dont have a solution either yet
[13:51] <ogra_ac> and no manpower
[13:51] <rsalveti> probably only after getting those 2 new guys around
[13:51] <ogra_ac> yes
[13:51] <rsalveti> ogra_ac: and about the newer guy from our team?
[13:52] <ogra_ac> no idea when he starts
[13:52] <ogra_ac> davidm will know soon i guess
[13:52] <ogra_ac> and tell us then ;)
[13:52] <rsalveti> oh :-)
[13:52] <rsalveti> and just a note, I'll be at vacation next week
[13:52] <ogra_ac> k
[13:52] <ogra_ac> slacker !
[13:52] <NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
[13:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[13:53] <ogra_ac> everyone: finish workitems !
[13:53] <ogra_ac> :)
[13:53] <rsalveti> ogra_ac: haha, and you'll be forced to be out during december ;-)
[13:53] <ogra_ac> yeah, i guess
[13:53] <NCommander> anything else
[13:53] <NCommander> will close in 3
[13:53] <NCommander> 2
[13:53] <NCommander> 1 1/2
[13:53] <NCommander> 1
[13:53] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[13:53] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:53.
[13:53] <ogra_ac> pfft
[13:53] <davidm> Thanks NCommander
[13:53] <ogra_ac> you wasterd 7 min we had
[13:53] <ogra_ac> :P
[13:54]  * NCommander whacks ogra_ac 
[13:54]  * GrueMaster considers crawling back to bed for a few hours.
[13:54] <ogra_ac> :)
[13:55] <ogra_ac> damned
[13:55] <ogra_ac> i forgot to mention merges
[13:55] <ogra_ac> please finish them if you still have any
[14:56] <kees> o/
[14:56] <pitti> I sent a SMS to sabdfl, not sure whether he can make it
[15:00] <pitti> so, no Keybuk, no sabdfl?
[15:01] <cjwatson> I'm here
[15:01]  * Chipaca waves
[15:01] <cjwatson> albeit swearing at gcc
[15:02]  * thisfred lurks
[15:02] <cjwatson> it's not a good day when I have to grep gcc source
[15:02] <kees> cjwatson: owchy
[15:03]  * wendar lurks, to answer any ARB-related questions
[15:03] <cjwatson> is mdz expected to be absent?
[15:03] <cjwatson> sabdfl is supposed to be chairing today
[15:05] <pitti> not on the holiday calendar, so I suspect meetings?
[15:06] <cjwatson> or timezone confusion ...
[15:06] <pitti> so, I volunteer for doing the writeups etc., but we don't think we have a quorum for decisions
[15:06] <pitti> TZ> but if at all (UTC based), it would have been an hour earlier
[15:07] <cjwatson> 3/6 should be quorate
[15:07] <pitti> so, let's start
[15:07] <pitti> #startmeeting
[15:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:07. The chair is pitti.
[15:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:08] <pitti> [TOPIC] action review
[15:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  action review
[15:08] <pitti> Colin to ensure that documentation on nature of extras.ubuntu.com archive makes it into process docs, and ensure that ARB legality checks are synchronised with those of ubuntu-archive.
[15:08] <pitti> I've seen your recent mail about license checks
[15:09] <pitti> so once that gets ack'ed by ARB, it should become part of the official wiki docs
[15:09] <wendar> I have a reply in the moderation queue on that
[15:09] <pitti> cjwatson: is the first part ('nature of extras') something else?
[15:09] <cjwatson> yes, that was an attempt to quickly clear my actions before the meeting
[15:09] <cjwatson> pitti: I added a link to ArchiveAdministration to resolve that
[15:09] <wendar> the intention of the ARB is to synchronize with the ubuntu-archive legality checks
[15:10] <cjwatson> moderated wendar's mail
[15:10] <pitti> wendar: moderated
[15:11] <pitti> cjwatson: so, let's keep it on the list to check next time?
[15:11] <cjwatson> I was about to say that we no longer needed to carry that action forward :)
[15:11] <cjwatson> but as you like
[15:11] <pitti> ok
[15:11] <pitti> if the NEW checks were the main point here -> done
[15:11] <pitti> Matt to write up Quarterly Brainstorm review and send to TB mailing list
[15:11] <pitti> that happened
[15:11] <cjwatson> it sounds like it is already essentially in hand on the ARB side
[15:11] <pitti> I have to admit I didn't follow up on that yet
[15:12] <pitti> [TOPIC] KDE micro version update exception
[15:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  KDE micro version update exception
[15:12] <pitti> ScottK: ^
[15:13] <ScottK> Hello
[15:13] <ScottK> Lost track of time.
[15:13] <pitti> so, http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft is a tad more permissive than our SRU policy
[15:13] <ScottK> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2010-November/000525.html is where to start on this.
[15:14] <pitti> but pretty much matches what we are doing in SRUs in practice
[15:14] <ScottK> It is.
[15:14] <ScottK> We aren't asking to take all point releases, just ones that we can test and have some confidence are regression free.
[15:15] <ScottK> We currently have KDE 4.4.5 tested and ready for Lucid if we get permission.
[15:15] <pitti> FYI, in GNOME we usually deliver .1, selected stuff from .2, and further microreleases only on demand
[15:15] <pitti> since the cost/benefit factor quickly gets worse
[15:15] <ScottK> We have been doing these in a PPA and they are very popular.
[15:16] <ScottK> Allowing this into the archive would actually reduce our workload somewhat since we'd no longer have to keep an eye on two sets of packages.
[15:16] <pitti> ScottK: these updates still need to refer to at least one "representative" LP bug where the testing and progress gets documented; does that sound acceptable?
[15:16] <kees> I'm fine with it; it's getting even more testing than a usual SRU too
[15:16] <ScottK> pitti: Yes.  There are a lot of packages and one bug per package is just confusing to people.
[15:18] <pitti> the upstream policy draft and https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy look fine to me as well, I'm just pretty adamant about the LP bug reference with ubuntu-sru@ subscription, since not doing so woudl complicate the SRU process a lot
[15:18] <ScottK> I've no problem at all with that.
[15:18] <pitti> ScottK: oh, you mean you don't want one bug per package?
[15:18] <pitti> one bug "KDE 4.4.5 for lucid" with all the necessary bug tasks works equally well
[15:18] <pitti> if you prefer that
[15:18] <cjwatson> right, it just needs to be something that can be represented on pending-sru.html
[15:19] <pitti> well, it's a bit harder to track for individual package verification
[15:19] <ScottK> I'd prefer one bug for the set.  They'll only be moved into -updates as a set and I think it's easier to track.
[15:19] <cjwatson> yeah, the tags don't work right
[15:19] <pitti> ScottK: ok, then we need to track the component verification in the bug comments, and set it to v-done with the last one
[15:19] <pitti> (we can do that in the description)
[15:19] <ScottK> That would be my plan.
[15:20] <ScottK> Since done is irrelevant until the set is done.
[15:20] <cjwatson> ok
[15:20] <pitti> no further questions from me, we already discussed that several times
[15:20] <pitti> cjwatson, kees: further questions/discussions?
[15:20] <cjwatson> no, I'm happy with ths
[15:20] <ScottK> You all saw Mark's resonse on the list, right?
[15:20] <cjwatson> *this
[15:20] <ScottK> response ...
[15:20]  * kees nods
[15:20] <cjwatson> I did, he said +1
[15:21] <pitti> [VOTE] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
[15:21] <MootBot> Please vote on:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy.
[15:21] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:21] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:21] <pitti> +1
[15:21] <MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:21] <cjwatson> +1
[15:21] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:21]  * pitti brings the ballot box to kees
[15:22] <kees> +1
[15:22] <MootBot> +1 received from kees. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:22] <pitti> [ENDVOTE]
[15:22] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
[15:22] <pitti> ScottK: good end to a looong story :)
[15:22] <ScottK> Yes.  Thank you everyone.
[15:22] <pitti> [ACTION] pitti to link https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy from SRU page
[15:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to link https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy from SRU page
[15:23] <ScottK> I'll modify the UpdatesPolicy to mention how to do the bug tracking for the SRU.
[15:23] <pitti> [TOPIC] couchdb lucid backport SRU
[15:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  couchdb lucid backport SRU
[15:23] <Chipaca> hi
[15:23] <pitti> Chipaca:
[15:23] <Chipaca> i sent a second email because the first one was broken (?)
[15:23] <Chipaca> but maybe you got it ok
[15:24] <cjwatson> we got both :)
[15:24] <pitti> first one went through, too
[15:24] <Chipaca> the archive mangled the first, or my mua did :)
[15:24] <pitti> I can't approve this under the normal SRU policy, so this requires an exceptio
[15:24] <pitti> n
[15:25] <cjwatson> where is the upgrade procedure implemented?
[15:25] <pitti> Chipaca: the thing I don't understand is how the lucid version coudl suddenly get incompatible with our cloud servers?
[15:25] <pitti> did we change our server API and knowingly break lucid clients?
[15:25] <kees> so, just to certain, this is a one-time exception, not a standing exception?
[15:25] <Keybuk> argh, sorry
[15:26] <pitti> hey Keybuk, welcome
[15:26] <Chipaca> kees: yes, one time
[15:26] <Keybuk> my calendar is completely screwed and just gave me the alarm for the TB meeting
[15:26] <Keybuk> *hate timezone issues*
[15:26] <Chipaca> pitti: we had to upgrade the servers for several of the issues fixed by the newer ones
[15:27] <pitti> Chipaca: so I guess by doing this you pretty much forced the upgrade on lucid
[15:27]  * cjwatson looks at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntuone/+archive/stable to see if he can discover the answer to his question above
[15:27] <Chipaca> pitti: without the fix, it didn't work on anything
[15:27] <pitti> but 0.10->1.0 changes are very extensive, so for the same reason why we can't backport patches that version jump also has a high regression potential for current lucid users
[15:28] <Chipaca> pitti: so it was either don't work on nothing, or work on only maverick
[15:28] <pitti> I see that you did extensive testing, which mitigates this concern quite a bit
[15:28] <cjwatson> also, is this only the couchdb package, or also the many other packages in ~ubuntuone/stable?
[15:28] <ScottK> It could go in lucid-backports.
[15:28] <pitti> Chipaca: it didn't work at all on lucid when we released?
[15:28] <james_w> how has the problem that all your data "disappears" with the upgrade been handled?
[15:29] <cjwatson> ScottK: if it's actually broken in lucid right now ("it" being U1 I suppose) then I'm not sure -backports is appropriate; seems like more than new features
[15:29] <Chipaca> cjwatson: only couchdb
[15:29] <cjwatson> Chipaca: and that was tested in isolation from the other stuff in the PPA?
[15:29] <thisfred> pitti: It worked but not under increasing load, it just didn't scale
[15:29] <ScottK> cjwatson: Agreed.  Just suggesting that as an alternative if -updates was deemed not suitable or risky.
[15:30] <pitti> my main concern is here that couchdb isn't just used for U1
[15:30] <Chipaca> cjwatson: yes, just the couch packages
[15:30] <pitti> and we indeed promote it more and more for quickly apps, etc.
[15:30] <pitti> so if it introduces any incompatibility with the unknown set of programs, we will get a very easy data loss regression
[15:31] <cjwatson> ok, so I can't quickly find the answer to my question from the source - where is the data upgrade procedure implemented?  is it in a maintainer script, or is it just when you load the file in couchdb?
[15:31] <Chipaca> that's a question for thisfred i think, but AFAIK the incompatibility only really affects replication
[15:32] <thisfred> cjwatson: yes opening an existing db in couchdb migrates it. This is a one way process, unfortunately
[15:32] <cjwatson> right, I just wanted to know that it wasn't in maintainer scripts
[15:32] <cjwatson> I'm more comfortable with it in couchdb itself, since doing this in maintainer scripts can be hard to get right
[15:32]  * kees nods
[15:33] <thisfred> There aren't many API changes, mainly new API rather than removal or change of behavior of existing API. Replication was fixed so that it works better over SSL, but the calls are still the same.
[15:33] <pitti> (or impossible, with desktopcouch and per-user instances)
[15:33] <cjwatson> quite so.
[15:34] <pitti> thisfred: ah, so the main trap here is shared home directories over the network, where some clients upgrade to 1.0, and some not (yet); the latter then coulnd't access the DB any more, right?
[15:34] <thisfred> nope
[15:34] <james_w> I think the proposed change may have a poor user experience. couchdb uses versioned directories for the databases, so on upgrade all your data appears to vanish. Anything u1 synced would then probably be re-downloaded rather than using the local version, and any local databases will be inaccessible until they are migrated manually.
[15:35] <thisfred> pitti what it sends over the wire is json, not the dbs, so it would be happy to replicate against a 0.10 db locally, as long as it's not over SSL which was badly broken.
[15:35] <thisfred> pitti sry misread that
[15:35] <pitti> thisfred: "the wire" also includes local apps? they just talk over the localhost TCP port?
[15:35] <thisfred> pitti: yes shared home directories would not work for the 0.10 clients
[15:36] <thisfred> pitti: they would error until they upgraded to 1.0.x as well
[15:36] <pitti> james_w: where does it appear vanished then? I thought couchdb would auto-upgrade it on demand?
[15:37] <james_w> pitti, that wasn't my experience
[15:37] <thisfred> once a db is in 1.0 format it can't be read by 0.10 any more, is the short of it
[15:37] <james_w> pitti, see README.Debian
[15:38] <thisfred> james_w: the versioned data directories is true, but not for anything synced with u1, since those dbs live in users' home directories
[15:38] <cjwatson> README.Debian: http://paste.ubuntu.com/533059/
[15:38] <thisfred> I wish couchdb didn't do that
[15:38] <cjwatson> thisfred: ok, but we have other things using couchdb
[15:38] <thisfred> right
[15:38] <pitti> thisfred: we need to be concerned about general database useage here, though, not just u1
[15:39] <james_w> has the server team been consulted?
[15:39] <thisfred> I know
[15:39] <cjwatson> is it worth considering an ubuntuone-couchdb temporary fork?
[15:39] <cjwatson> just for lucid
[15:39] <pitti> cjwatson: nice idea
[15:39] <pitti> then we could change lucid's u1 packages to use that instead?
[15:39] <cjwatson> or maybe couchdb-1.0 would be a better name
[15:39] <cjwatson> YKWIM though
[15:39] <Chipaca> i'd call it couchdb-ssl :)
[15:39] <Chipaca> yeah
[15:39] <thisfred> Should be doable
[15:40] <pitti> question is what to do with desktopcouch then
[15:40] <cjwatson> I'm not familiar enough with that to be able to comment
[15:40] <pitti> thisfred: I take it we couldn't leave desktopcouch to use the 0.10 version?
[15:41] <thisfred> pitti: I think the old desktopcouch would continue working, this was tested
[15:41] <thisfred> so that doesn't need an SRU
[15:41] <kees> it'd be nice to not fork, since there are outstanding CVEs in couchdb...
[15:41] <thisfred> AFAIK
[15:41] <pitti> thisfred: but wouldn't the per-user DBs have the same per-version directory probleM?
[15:41] <kees> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/couchdb.html
[15:41] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/couchdb.html
[15:42] <cjwatson> kees: I know, but the tension seems hard to break
[15:42] <thisfred> pitti: no they don't they live in userland, and don't have this issue
[15:43] <pitti> thisfred: could you extend your wiki page to point out the consequences for system-wide couchdb, per-user couchdb instances, and how to retain full API compatibility with quickly apps, so that we can revisit that next time?
[15:44] <thisfred> Well, we'd have to change its dependency in case of a temporary fork of course
[15:44] <pitti> my feeling is that we don't yet have enough confidence in this
[15:44] <thisfred> pitti: will do
[15:44] <pitti> I'll keep it on the agenda for revisiting in two weeks
[15:44] <pitti> thisfred: thanks
[15:44] <cjwatson> I'd be grateful if somebody could at least explore the fork suggestion and see how well it works out; I expect there are a number of small issues to solve there
[15:45] <thisfred> quickly uses desktopcouch btw, so since desktopcouch works, quickly apps should also
[15:45] <thisfred> if they don't poke through the API
[15:45] <pitti> thisfred: right, but I'm not quite clear what kind of changes we'd need to do to desktopcouch if we have a counchdb and couchdb-1.0 pacakge in lucid
[15:46] <thisfred> pitti: yeah, it would be the dependency and the startup machinery, at least (and at most, I think)
[15:46] <pitti> if we left desktopcouch to use 0.1, then we still wouldnt' have replication, and thus miss what you try to do for U1, or did I misunderstand?
[15:46] <thisfred> that is correct
[15:46] <thisfred> no replication to U1
[15:47] <pitti> well, since we didn't have that ever in lucid, this doesn't seem like a pressing issue to me
[15:47] <pitti> but the security issues seem more worthwhile to consider
[15:47] <thisfred> we did, until the 0.10 couch on the server buckled under the load
[15:47] <pitti> thisfred: this is just for contacts etc. sync, not for U1 file sync, right?
[15:48] <thisfred> pitti: correct
[15:48] <kees> they're low, except for 1 medium which doesn't apply to desktopcouch (just the not-installed-by-default server side)
[15:48] <Chipaca> right, so no contact sync, no bookmarks sync, no notes sync
[15:48] <thisfred> notes sync is special
[15:48] <pitti> Chipaca: perhaps you can add some more details about the affected servicese as well, and which ones actually regressed
[15:48] <thisfred> so yes notes sync
[15:48] <Chipaca> thisfred: right, no notes sync *back*
[15:49] <pitti> Chipaca, thisfred: so, can we reiterate that in two weeks, and extend the wiki pages with above info, and explore the feasibility of a couchdb-1.0 package? that okay for you?
[15:50] <Chipaca> we can work with that
[15:50] <thisfred> yep
[15:50] <pitti> ok, thanks
[15:50] <Chipaca> it's not *ideal*, but, yes
[15:50] <pitti> [TOPIC] ARB exception proposal - Allison Randal
[15:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARB exception proposal - Allison Randal
[15:50] <pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/MaverickExceptionsProposal
[15:50] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/MaverickExceptionsProposal
[15:51] <pitti> wendar: some questions to that
[15:52] <pitti> wendar: how many python libraries" do such packages actually ship?
[15:52] <pitti> the odd mini application should presumably only use private libraries or just programs?
[15:52] <wendar> they shouldn't ship any general-purpose libararies, only private libraries
[15:53] <pitti> my main concern there would be namespace clobbering/shadowing
[15:53] <pitti> wendar: private libraries coudl live in the app directory, as long as the program sets sys.path properly, couldn't they? or is that impractical for some reason?
[15:53] <wendar> (on namespace clobbering) yes, the suggestion there is to require the libraries to use a subpath "extras"
[15:54] <wendar> (on sys.path) the applications can run fine, but the packaging tools can't generate the .pyc files
[15:54] <cjwatson> this may be bikeshedding, but the mentions of /opt/extras looked odd to me
[15:54] <pitti> .pyc isnt' strictly required, though
[15:54] <cjwatson> I realise it's probably because you don't know all the paths in advance
[15:55] <cjwatson> there's a technique in man-db which might help - infer the paths you need from $PATH
[15:55] <cjwatson> i.e. if /opt/foo/bin is on $PATH then you want /opt/foo/site-packages or whatever
[15:55] <cjwatson> is that practical?  I'm not sure how you arrange for things in /opt to be executd
[15:55] <cjwatson> +e
[15:55] <wendar> cjwatson: the idea there is to pick some unique path under /opt for all applications, before the package name
[15:56] <cjwatson> right, it's just kind of contrary to the way /opt is normally used and has essentially the same potential conflict problems as putting things in /usr
[15:56] <pitti> wendar: hm, usually they should use /opt/<appname>?
[15:57] <cjwatson> the idea of /opt is to have everything have a completely separate tree, and I wanted to explore whether that could be preserved
[15:57] <cjwatson> for example things could iterate over all subdirectories of /opt, if inferring from $PATH isn't feasible
[15:57] <pitti> I think we can probably make an exception for maverick to put desktop files under /usr/local/share/applications/
[15:57] <cjwatson> I realise it's sort of nitpicking, just wanted to see if we could get this right from *cough* nearly the start
[15:57] <pitti> to avoid heavy patches to many libraries to also consider /opt/*
[15:57] <cjwatson> pitti: agreed
[15:58] <pitti> the "python binaries" should be mostly a non-issue IMHO
[15:58] <wendar> from the FHS: /opt/<provider>/<appname> is the other option (to further protect the general namespace)
[15:58] <cjwatson> oh, huh
[15:58] <pitti> the .desktop file will point to the right path, and that's mostly what we are interested in
[15:58] <wendar> so we're looking for a unique "provider"
[15:58] <pitti> so I think the main concern are the python libs here
[15:58] <cjwatson> wendar obviously knows the FHS better than I do
[15:59] <wendar> we first suggested "SoftwareCenter", but that doesn't seem to fit with the general naming scheme for providers
[15:59] <cjwatson> well, you're supposed to register things with the LANANA, per the FHS
[15:59] <cjwatson> if that's still operating ...
[15:59] <cjwatson> it was H. Peter Anvin last I checked
[15:59] <kees> adding the glue for things in /usr to use /opt seems silly -- just use /usr. The whole point of /opt was to keep things separate.
[16:00] <pitti> wendar: for maverick, could we fix quickly to automatically add the binary's directory to sys.path, and ask app authors to do the same?
[16:00] <cjwatson> LANANA provider list last changed 2010-11-05
[16:00] <wendar> yes, we should register, once we settle on a name
[16:00] <cjwatson> http://www.lanana.org/lsbreg/providers/providers.txt
[16:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.lanana.org/lsbreg/providers/providers.txt
[16:00] <pitti> kees: for desktop files?
[16:00] <cjwatson> examples of names
[16:00] <cjwatson> how about just /opt/ubuntu then?
[16:00] <kees> pitti: right, it seems like .desktop would live in /usr and the core would be in /opt
[16:01] <pitti> kees: it shouldn't be the final solution of course, but I think for maverick it'd be an acceptable compromise; you don't?
[16:01] <pitti> after all, these packages still get a review for sanity
[16:01] <cjwatson> No other package files may exist outside the /opt, /var/opt, and /etc/opt
[16:01] <kees> pitti: yeah
[16:01] <cjwatson> hierarchies except for those package files that must reside in specific
[16:01] <cjwatson> locations within the filesystem tree in order to function properly. For
[16:01] <cjwatson> so the FHS does have a get-out clause
[16:01] <cjwatson> example, device lock files must be placed in /var/lock and devices must be
[16:01] <cjwatson> located in /dev.
[16:02] <cjwatson> I dunno though, I feel that if we used that get-out too much there's precious little point in using /opt at all
[16:03] <cjwatson> so I'd like us to have at least some glue
[16:03] <pitti> I'd really avoid that for python libs
[16:03] <cjwatson> yes
[16:03] <wendar> cjwatson: /opt/ubuntu would work, if you're comfortable with possible namespace collisions between some other (potential future) apps using the same namespace (nothing uses it now, so it's safe)
[16:03]  * SpamapS coughs and looks over at the clock
[16:04] <robbiew> :)
[16:04] <pitti> SpamapS: you have a meeting here now?
[16:04] <SpamapS> me? no not me.
[16:04] <kirkland> pitti: server team meeting
[16:04] <pitti> oops
[16:04] <cjwatson> wendar: you mean other apps in extras.u.c?
[16:04] <SpamapS> just coughing, wondering what time it is. ;)
[16:04] <robbiew> pitti: no worries...recent move ;)
[16:04] <pitti> wendar: so, seems we have to move that to email
[16:05] <pitti> wendar: I'll summarize the discussion here and reply to your mail
[16:05] <pitti> wendar: and we can pick it up again next time if needed (or resolve by email)
[16:05] <ScottK> Since these apps are specifically not part of Ubuntu, that namespace choice seems odd.
[16:05] <ScottK> wendar: ^^^
[16:05]  * pitti taps gavel, need to wrap up
[16:06] <pitti> thanks everyone!
[16:06] <pitti> #endmeeting
[16:06] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:06.
[16:06] <pitti> robbiew, kirkland: sorry for running over
[16:07] <robbiew> pitti: np
[16:07] <kirkland> pitti: ;-)
[16:07] <SpamapS> actually your discussion was probably a lot more interesting than what we're going to discuss.. ;)
[16:07] <hallyn> (oh my, quitting mumble just killed my unity sidebar)
[16:08] <smb> hallyn, You shall not leave unpunished
[16:09] <SpamapS> lol
[16:09] <hallyn> smb: for not running wmii?  :)
[16:09] <smb> hallyn, Just for trying to leave that lovely mumble arena
[16:10] <hallyn> yeah, i always hate to do it
[16:10] <zul> have we started yet?
[16:10] <hallyn> no
[16:11] <SpamapS> Daviey: I think you have the honors sir.
[16:11] <robbiew> no...who's chairing this week?
[16:11] <hallyn> is Daviey running the show?
[16:11] <JamesPage> who's up for chair this week?
[16:11] <robbiew> ah
[16:11] <SpamapS> robbiew: feel free to throw yourself into the chair/scribe list for great happiness.
[16:12] <robbiew> SpamapS: no thanks...I have enough busy work as it is ;)
[16:12] <hallyn> Daviey: around?
[16:12] <smoser> so, we do have a meeting
[16:12] <smoser> cool
[16:12] <zul> how convient :0
[16:13] <hallyn> (one last ping) Daviey ?
[16:13] <hallyn> #startmeeting
[16:13] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:13. The chair is hallyn.
[16:13] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:13] <hallyn> TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:13] <hallyn> #TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:13] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[16:14] <hallyn> mathiaz: to verify SRU bug 666028
[16:14] <hallyn> mathiaz isn't here though.  carry over?
[16:15] <SpamapS> indeed
[16:15]  * hallyn feels lonely
[16:15] <hallyn> moving on,
[16:15] <JamesPage> Not sure whether mathiaz did this but it has been verified
[16:15] <hallyn> ALL: please check the SRU tracker for verification-needed bugs and help out with verification
[16:15] <hallyn> JamesPage: oh, ok, thanks
[16:15] <SpamapS> There are 2 bugs needing verification in the SRU tracker right now
[16:15] <hallyn> so, i've personally done more to add sru requests than verify them this week, i'm afraid
[16:16] <SpamapS> The unassigned list is .. crazy though
[16:16] <SpamapS> Seems like we could all stand to attack the lucid ones with a vengance before 10.04.2
[16:16] <hallyn> which is when exactly?
[16:17] <zul> soon i think but robbiew has a probably better idea
[16:17] <SpamapS> January 27
[16:17] <kirkland> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
[16:17] <robbiew> fyi - the dates are tentative ;)
[16:17] <hallyn> SpamapS: for simplicity, do you have a link to the sru tracker?
[16:17] <hallyn> (simplicity, and for the logs)
[16:18] <SpamapS> http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs
[16:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs
[16:18] <hallyn> cool, so i recon' we carry that one over?
[16:18] <SpamapS> Yes indeed.
[16:18] <robbiew> so is this link obsolete: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam
[16:18] <hallyn> [ACTION] ALL: please check the SRU tracker http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs and help out with verification
[16:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ALL: please check the SRU tracker http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html#verified_bugs and help out with verification
[16:18] <robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/SRUTracker
[16:19] <robbiew> the 2nd one...1st isn't...hopefully :P
[16:19] <SpamapS> I've not seen that wiki page until just now.
[16:20] <SpamapS> was that manually maintained?
[16:20] <robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
[16:20] <robbiew> :)
[16:20] <zul> robbiew: yeah that one is *really* old
[16:20] <hallyn> [ACTION] robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
[16:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to review /ServerTeam wiki
[16:20] <hallyn> which is really old?
[16:20] <zul> the ServerTeam/SRUTracker
[16:20] <hallyn> hm. ok. good to know, thx
[16:21] <hallyn> any more need to be said about sru's?
[16:21] <hallyn> (last week we deferred a conversation about making them a daily activity)
[16:22] <hallyn> all right then, moving on
[16:22] <hallyn> SpamapS: change kernel team representative from jjohansen to smb in meeting agenda going forward
[16:22] <SpamapS> lets have that SRU talk during Open Discussion
[16:22] <hallyn> ok
[16:22] <SpamapS> hallyn: done
[16:22] <hallyn> robbiew: update the fridge calendar with new ubuntu server meeting time
[16:22] <hallyn> (i saw this morning that was done :)
[16:22] <hallyn> (as i looked in a panick for the right time)
[16:22] <hallyn> hggdh: contact Ubuntu Developers asking for packages which run test suites during build.
[16:23] <hggdh> done -- I asked in devel-discuss. My track record for having emails accepted in -devel sucks
[16:23] <hallyn> haha, yeah easy way to feel rejection
[16:23] <hallyn> thanks
[16:23] <hggdh> I got some more packages to build, and they are already on the process
[16:24] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Natty Development
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Development
[16:25] <hallyn> anything to discuss here?
[16:25] <robbiew> oh
[16:25] <robbiew> so I'm reviewing/approving blueprints
[16:26] <SpamapS> you said that last week. ;)
[16:26] <robbiew> yep
[16:26] <robbiew> it's a slow process
[16:26] <hallyn> robbiew: is it safe to say that if we should be worried, you'd have talked to us by now?
[16:26] <robbiew> especially when folks are missing work items and milestone targets ;)
[16:26] <robbiew> nothing to worry about
[16:26] <robbiew> it's a fluid process anyway
[16:27] <robbiew> I could approve every single one
[16:27] <robbiew> but we know they won't all be done
[16:27] <robbiew> :)
[16:27] <hallyn> \o/
[16:27] <robbiew> my main focus is on eliminating work we KNOW we can't do
[16:27] <robbiew> and prioritizing the res
[16:27] <robbiew> rest
[16:27] <SpamapS> its basically whether you crush our dreams now, or the work crushes them later.
[16:27] <robbiew> so we know what to drop come review in Alpha 2 and Alpha 3
[16:27] <robbiew> welcome to time-based releases !
[16:27] <hallyn> SpamapS: except this lets us stay excited awhiel longer :)
[16:28] <robbiew> SpamapS: the priority of the blueprint will indicate dream-crushing probability :P
[16:28] <SpamapS> hallyn: its like wrapping up hunks of coal for christmas..
[16:28] <robbiew> as I'm out next week...I hope to have it all sorted by Friday
[16:28] <robbiew> especially since the 1st release mtg is quickly approaching
[16:29]  * SpamapS resolves to submit his remaining 3 BP's for review today
[16:29] <robbiew> and I don't want skaet to kick my ass ;)
[16:29] <skaet> :)
[16:29] <SpamapS> skaet: aim for the knees
[16:29] <robbiew> hallyn: that's it from me
[16:29] <hallyn> cool, thanks
[16:29] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Maverick SRUs
[16:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick SRUs
[16:29] <hallyn> Bug 661547 - Existing patch gssapi.diff makes guess_service_principal produce garbage
[16:30]  * hallyn picks someone at random to point to
[16:30] <hallyn> zul: ^
[16:30] <JamesPage> Pending release of bug 666028 which is holding things up
[16:30]  * smoser will have BPs submitted for approval also
[16:30] <hallyn> JamesPage: ah, thanks
[16:31] <hallyn> JamesPage: any estimated resolution date on that?
[16:31] <zul> hallyn: ack
[16:31] <JamesPage> patched version had been verified so now pending release
  thanks
[16:32] <hallyn> Bug 657149 - squid fails to upgrade (incomplete)
[16:33] <hallyn> uh, i'll try that again:  zul ^  :)
[16:33] <zul> hallyn: *sigh*
[16:33] <SpamapS> how is that an SRU for maverick at this point? It still doesn't even look Confirmed
[16:33] <hallyn> so it should be taken off that list?
[16:34] <zul> yes its incomplete
[16:34] <hallyn> all right, will pull that from the list for next mtg
[16:34] <hallyn> Bug 658227 - openldap fails to upgrade (in -proposed)
[16:34] <hggdh> it should. And it has not even been nominated
[16:35] <JamesPage> hallyn: 658227 released to -updates
[16:35] <hallyn> anything needed for lucid on that?
[16:35] <hallyn> oh no - i think coffee shop lady is about to reset my connection
[16:36] <hallyn> all right so 658227 i'll take off the list too
[16:36] <hallyn> Bug 660227 - php5-pgsql crash on getting an error back from postgres (in -proposed)
[16:36] <hallyn> fix released in maverick - remove from list?
[16:37] <zul> yes
[16:37] <hallyn> Bug 600174 - axis2c fails to build from source on maverick/i386
[16:37] <hallyn> (last one)
[16:37] <hallyn> not fix released in natty...
[16:37] <hallyn> not viable for sru?
[16:38] <SpamapS> I wonder if we need to keep handling Maverick SRU's in the meeting after this meeting?
[16:38] <hallyn> SpamapS: ?
[16:38] <zul> hallyn: its not a viable SRU
[16:39] <hallyn> zul: thanks.  will pull that one as well
[16:39] <SpamapS> I think the reason they were discussed was to handle the OMG bugs that needed fast turn around after the release. We're over a month out.. they should probably join lucid bugs in the big SRU list.
[16:39] <hallyn> sounds good to me.  let's discuss in open discussion
[16:39] <robbiew> SpamapS: agree...also (fwiw) skaet plans to have a bi-weekly meeting to cover SRUs
[16:39] <robbiew> separate from the weekly release meeting
[16:39] <hallyn> oh, that'd be good.  where will it be announced?
[16:39] <SpamapS> sign me up
[16:39] <skaet> yup.   email will be oming out soon...
[16:39] <hallyn> ditto
[16:40] <hallyn> cool, thanks
[16:40] <hallyn> moving on
[16:40] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
[16:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
[16:40] <hggdh> I am starting to work with zul to take over part of the SRU process
[16:40] <zul> yay!
[16:41] <hallyn> :)
[16:41] <hggdh> apart from that, finishing up my own BPs, and starting to work on them. No news, except we will try to review the current bug management process
[16:41] <hallyn> any questions for hggdh ?
[16:42] <hallyn> moving on, then
[16:42] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
[16:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
[16:42] <smb> I had prepared a list of bugs currently on our radar with comments. Since
[16:42] <smb> those are a few I am wondering whether I should bore everybody by quickly
[16:42] <smb> going over all of them or try to make a best of?
[16:43] <SpamapS> smb: I'd be interested in any that you need feedback/testing on.
[16:43] <hallyn> and i'd be interested in any you're working on, i think (might end up affecting me)
[16:43] <smoser> smb, if you have prepared list, pastebin it
[16:43] <hallyn> that smoser, always thinking
[16:43] <smoser> and then give us the greatest-hits
[16:43] <smb> Hm, there would be mostly one for ext4
[16:43] <smb> ok, a second
[16:44]  * smoser finds it almost annoying how always prepared smb is :)
[16:44] <hallyn> smoser needs more annoying neighbors or something
[16:44] <smb> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/533098/
[16:44] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/533098/
[16:45] <smb> For a lot of things I am finding myself wondering whether there could be any setup that would give us a dom0 similar to amazons
[16:45] <hallyn> crimey longer list than i expected :)
[16:46] <smb> hallyn, It just the many non-commiting comments
[16:46] <hallyn> smb: so which ones of those did you defiantely want to discuss?
[16:46] <smoser> smb, well, you can crawl logs and see reported xen versions
[16:47] <smoser> somewhat consistent results can be found with centos 5.X (where X is variable)
[16:47] <smb> I guess the one that might be about loosing interrupts, but iirc nobody from us could recreate the problems there
[16:47] <smoser> but many of hte ones that are hitting us now are race and or new-hardware
[16:47] <hallyn> smb: purely out of curiosity - for suspected kernel bugs involving bridging, who would likely end up being assigned?
[16:48] <smb> hallyn, If it looks any server related I seem to be the point of dumping lately
[16:48] <smb> hallyn, Though I probably try to get advice from tgardner on networking stuff
[16:49] <hallyn> smb: thanks
[16:49] <smoser> so, smb, my comments on above. lines 1-3, thank you thank you thank you.
[16:49] <hallyn> is everyone still following the links, or does noone have further questions for smb?
[16:49] <smoser> bug 614853, for 10.04, on 'linux-ec2' (which is no longer active), i really would like a solution, and am not terribly concerned about it being a hack.
[16:50] <smoser> maybe we should just put a BUG_ON statement there, so if we see fallout later we'll see messages in the console log that this was possibly related
[16:50] <smb> smoser, i think jj wanted to look into the chance of upstream
[16:50] <smb> Wanted to ask him today, but he had power issues earlier on as well
[16:50] <smoser> ah. ok. we'll i'll leave you to it.
[16:51]  * hallyn chuckles at the patch
[16:51] <smoser> yeah
[16:51] <hallyn> i wouldn't call that a hack, per se...
[16:51] <hallyn> any action for that bug then?
[16:51] <smb> Only because apparently those values should never be zero
[16:51] <smb> So I heard the checks just avoid the problem
[16:52] <smb> or hide it
[16:52] <smb> personally I would not care as long as there is no real solution and the system does not crash anymore
[16:52] <smb> I guess thats all so far
[16:52] <hallyn> if someone cares they can trace where avg_load gets set to 0 :)
[16:52] <hallyn> ok, any more q's for smb?  going once...
[16:53] <smoser> smb, so i guess i should poke at the natty boot bug
[16:53] <smoser> as we really really want to have that fixed by alpha1
[16:53] <hallyn> smoser: which # is that?
[16:53] <smoser> as we'd like to have an alpha that does more than send amazon money
[16:53] <smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/669496
[16:53] <smb> smoser, It feels likesomething crashes very early on. But without seing anything its hard to say
[16:54] <smoser> well, yeah, other than there are messages in those logs. something goes amuck in kernel and it remounts ro
[16:54] <smb> smoser, We probably should clarify when there are messages or not. The t1.micro did not produce anything for me
[16:55] <smb> And the larger instance just booted fine
[16:55] <smoser> well, running natty kernel on maverick user space is less an immediate concern
[16:55] <smoser> than running natty kernel and natty user space
[16:56]  * SpamapS coughs... and looks at the clock ... again
[16:56] <smoser> in natty-natty, we get kernel messages in all cases (as far as I understood)
[16:56] <hallyn> any actions?
[16:56] <hallyn> [TOPIC] #
[16:56] <hallyn> #
[16:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[16:56] <SpamapS> seems like you guys should continue this discussion in #ubuntu-(devel|server|?)
[16:56] <hallyn> Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
[16:56] <hallyn> doh
[16:56] <hallyn> [TOPIC] #
[16:56] <hallyn> #
[16:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[16:56] <hallyn> Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
[16:56] <hallyn> grr
[16:57]  * SpamapS likes # cake
[16:57] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer
[16:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer
[16:57] <smoser> thanks smoser
[16:57] <smoser> thanks smb
[16:57] <SpamapS> sommer's not here again
[16:57] <hallyn> sommer is not here
[16:57] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
[16:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
[16:57] <smb> smoser, Damn completion. ;-)
[16:57] <hallyn> kim0 is not here
[16:57] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
[16:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
[16:58] <zul> i still like turtles
[16:58] <hallyn> SpamapS: you wanted to bring something up?
[16:58] <SpamapS> Can we discuss doing SRU verification and/or assignment on bug triage days? Seems like we're getting *way way way* behind on the SRU list.
[16:58] <Daviey> ack
[16:58] <hallyn> SpamapS: in the one sru tracker list, i only saw two pending...
[16:59] <SpamapS> hallyn: for verification yes
[16:59] <hallyn> SpamapS: for me, what i'm behind on is actually nominating kvm bugs for lucid sru!
[16:59] <hallyn> sorry to say
[16:59] <Daviey> SpamapS: With much of the team being at UDS, and the event last week - i imagine many of us are behind on our duties for thaty
[16:59] <SpamapS> but I mean the actual unassigned bugs accepted for a release
[16:59] <zul> SpamapS: its also that way so the community can get involved that way as well
[16:59] <hallyn> SpamapS: do you want to come up with a concrete proposal?
[16:59] <hallyn> (since we're out of time) and email it?
[17:00] <Daviey> sounds like a good starting point!!
[17:00] <hallyn> [ACTION] SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
[17:00] <MootBot> ACTION received:  SpamapS to email a concrete proposal for addressing SRU verification backlog
[17:00] <SpamapS> Yeah I'll email ubuntu-server with my ideas.
[17:00] <hallyn> cool, thanks
[17:00] <hallyn> anything else to discuss?
[17:00] <hallyn> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time: Tuesday 2010-11-23 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
[17:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time: Tuesday 2010-11-23 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
[17:00] <hallyn> thanks, all
[17:00] <hallyn> #endmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
[17:00] <SpamapS> hallyn: thanks!!
[17:01] <Daviey> \o/
[17:01] <kirkland> \o/
[17:02] <SpamapS> M
[17:02] <skaet> thanks!
[17:02] <SpamapS> C
[17:02] <SpamapS> A
[17:03] <bjf> #startmeeting
[17:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:03. The chair is bjf.
[17:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:04] <smb> \o
[17:04] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:04] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
[17:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
[17:04] <cking> o/
[17:04] <bjf> #
[17:04] <bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
[17:04] <bjf> #
[17:05] <JFo> o/
[17:05] <sconklin> \o/
[17:05] <bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
[17:05] <bjf> * TI - They are still stabilizing 2.6.35 based kernel for omap4. And they will probably skip 2.6.36 and move to 2.6.37 directly, but it won't happen before December.
[17:05] <bjf> ..
[17:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
[17:05] <smb> JFo, Long time no see :)
[17:05] <JFo> :)
[17:06] <bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
[17:06] <JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (0 bugs, 12 Blueprints)
[17:06] <JFo> [17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
[17:06] <JFo> [17:06] <JFo>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
[17:06] <JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
[17:06] <JFo> [17:06] <JFo>  * 1 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
[17:06] <JFo> This number is wrong. The only blueprint I see on the list is mine.
[17:06] <JFo> [17:06] <JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
[17:06] <JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
[17:06] <JFo> As these are now one of my main focus points. I will begin working specifically on them this week.
[17:06] <JFo> The goal is to beat this number back to zero and then maintain as close to that as possible going forward.
[17:06] <JFo> I'll be asking some of you to review bugs as needed to assess their viability and to improve my work on the overall
[17:06] <JFo> list over time. Once I have the hang of it, I hope to submit those patches that make sense to the list for review.
[17:06] <JFo> ..
[17:07] <JFo> oh
[17:07] <JFo> please note the blueprint note
  * 1 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
 This number is wrong. The only blueprint I see on the list is mine.
[17:07] <JFo> ..
[17:07] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
[17:07] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
[17:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
[17:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
[17:08] <JFo> nothing to report
[17:08] <JFo> ..
[17:08] <bjf> Is apw around? I know this is a day off for him but I'm just wondering.
[17:09] <JFo> think he is gone now
[17:09] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
[17:09] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
[17:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Enhancements to the firmware test suite (cking)
[17:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-firmware-test-suite-enhancements
[17:09] <cking> Changes to fwts (natty development branch):
[17:09] <cking>  * remove need for sudo when loading ACPI tables from file (bug fix)
[17:09] <cking>  * initial ACPI tables field checking - on common fields that give most issues
[17:09] <cking>  * move kernel log tables into json format data
[17:09] <cking>  * remove --fwts-debug
[17:09] <cking>  * --stdout-summary outputs FAILED levels, e.g FAILED_HIGH, FAILED_LOW, etc
[17:09] <cking>  * adjust log width to match tty width when logging to stdout
[17:09] <cking>  * add aborted and skipped test to summary
[17:09] <cking>  * cpufreq: make this an experimental test as it's not fully validated yet
[17:09] <cking>  * check for non-compliant brightness levels
[17:09] <cking>  * working on AML method sanity checking
[17:09] <cking> ..
[17:09] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
[17:09] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
[17:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Handling of Deviations from Standard Kernels (smb)
[17:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-frankenkernel-maintenance
[17:10] <smb> Small progress in the documentation
[17:10] <smb> Will do the in tree doc next and try the tooling
[17:10] <smb> ..
[17:10] <smb> o
[17:11] <smb> Forgot: for the drm33 upstream kernel I finished the scripting and have sent out the first patch queued notice
[17:11] <smb> ..
[17:11] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin)
[17:11] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
[17:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin)
[17:11] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
[17:11] <sconklin> We're roughly half way through the first trial of the new stable kernel process, which is outlined here;
[17:11] <sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
[17:11] <sconklin> Yesterday, we reverted commits for bugs without verification, and uploaded the resulting kernels this morning.
[17:11] <sconklin> As soon as they are built, they will require QA and Cert testing before being released.
[17:11] <sconklin> For Maverick, The following bugs had commits reverted due to lack of verification:
[17:11] <sconklin> 598938   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
[17:11] <sconklin> 637291   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back; no audio on laptop speakers but
[17:11] <sconklin> 648871   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
[17:11] <sconklin> 642892   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
[17:11] <sconklin> 655386   no audio playback except with headphones but it is extremely quiet
[17:11] <sconklin> 546769   no sound with Realtek ALC269 - on Sony Vaio VPCEB1S1E
[17:11] <sconklin> 663642   DVI doesn't work at BeagleBoard xM rev A3
[17:11] <sconklin> 580749   Pulseaudio is not running VT1708
[17:11] <sconklin> For Lucid, The following bugs had commits reverted due to lack of verification:
[17:11] <sconklin> 598938   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
[17:11] <sconklin> 637291   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back; no audio on laptop speakers but
[17:11] <sconklin> 642892   [Realtek ALC269] ALSA test tone not correctly played back
[17:11] <sconklin> 655386   no audio playback except with headphones but it is extremely quiet
[17:11] <sconklin> 546769   no sound with Realtek ALC269 - on Sony Vaio VPCEB1S1E
[17:11] <sconklin> 580749   Pulseaudio is not running VT1708
[17:11] <sconklin> 605047   Internal Microphone on Dell Lattitude e6410 does not work
[17:11] <sconklin> 628776   HP NC511i Driver (be2net and be2scsi) is missing in kernel module udebs
[17:11] <sconklin> 580749   Pulseaudio is not running VT1708
[17:11] <sconklin> 465942   Hardware device disappearing from Sound Preferences on ASUS 0x104381b3
[17:11] <sconklin> 587546   Pulseaudio fails after several seconds
[17:11] <sconklin> General comments on the new stable cadence process:
[17:12] <sconklin> * Thanks for all the help and understanding. This first test run through the process
[17:12] <sconklin> steps has been very labor intensive, slow, and error prone.
[17:12] <sconklin> * We are refining the process as we go. Details are being maintained on the wiki page linked above.
[17:12] <sconklin> * Martin Pitt has agreed to change the verification tagging for bugs to "verification=[needed|failed|done]-<release>"
[17:12] <sconklin>   in order to help us track verification in different released kernels within the same bug.
[17:12] <smb> err would the alsa one not be probably be stabel?
[17:12] <sconklin> ..
[17:12] <smb> upstream stable I meant
[17:12] <sconklin> it may be queued in upstream stable, we wouldn't know
[17:12] <sconklin> (unless we looked)
[17:13] <smb> I would have thought most of anything touching alsa came through a upstream stable update...
[17:13] <smb> Just a feeling...
[17:13] <bjf> smb, no, we've taken patches from diwic for example
[17:13] <sconklin> we took some of these as prestable
[17:13] <sconklin> and one caused a regression
[17:13] <smb> ok, so those were just more than I could remember
[17:14] <smb> I be quiet then
[17:14] <JFo> will those get put back in for verification of the next kernel?
[17:14] <sconklin> there are fewer patches that there are bugs listed
[17:14] <JFo> of/in
[17:14] <bjf> JFo, only if the request is made to do so via the bug
[17:14] <JFo> ok, thanks bjf
[17:14] <JFo> ..
[17:14] <sconklin> ..
[17:14] <bjf> JFo, it will not happen automagically
[17:14] <JFo> I see
[17:15] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (tgardner)
[17:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (tgardner)
[17:16] <bjf> guess not
[17:16] <bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin)
[17:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin)
[17:16] <tgardner> apw just uploaded -4.13 yesterday. the 2.6.37-rc2 is in the works.
[17:17] <tgardner> ..
[17:17] <sconklin> ||                         || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || Dapper: Kernel          || 2.6.15-55.89  ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || Hardy:  Kernel          || 2.6.24-28.80  ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       LRM             || 2.6.24.18-28.7||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || Karmic: Kernel          || 2.6.31-22.68  ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.31-214.30 || 2.6.31-214.32 ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.31-307.21 ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || Lucid:  Kernel          || 2.6.32-25.45  || 3.6.32-26.47  || 14  ||  6 / 24     ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       LBM             || 2.6.32-25.24  || 2.6.32-26.25  ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-209.25 || 2.6.32-211.27 ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       fsl-imx51       || 2.6.31-608.19 || 2.6.31-608.20 ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       ec2             || 2.6.32-309.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || = lts-backport-maverick || 2.6.35.22.34  ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || Maverick: Kernel        || 2.6.35-22.35  || 3.6.35-23.38  || 14  ||  12 / 30    ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       mvl-dove        || 2.6.32-410.27 ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> || =       ti-omap4        || 2.6.35-903.18 ||               ||     ||             ||
[17:17] <sconklin> ..
[17:18] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
[17:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
[17:18] <JFo> Incoming Bugs
[17:18] <JFo> 12 Natty Bugs
[17:18] <JFo> 1025 Maverick Bugs (up 304 since the final maverick meeting)
[17:18] <JFo> 1082 Lucid Bugs (up 68 since the final maverick meeting)
[17:18] <JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
[17:18] <JFo> [17:18] <JFo> As this tag is deprecated, this listing is only to ensure that I keep it on my radar until
[17:18] <JFo> changes to the apport hooks and my processing of the currently tagged bugs is completed.
[17:18] <JFo>   * 3 natty bugs
[17:18] <JFo>   * 396 maverick bugs (up 32 since the final maverick meeting)
[17:18] <JFo>   * 177 lucid bugs (up 14 since the final maverick meeting)
[17:18] <JFo> [17:18] <JFo>   * 20 maverick bugs
[17:18] <JFo>   * 77 lucid bugs (up 13)
[17:18] <JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
[17:18] <JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
[17:18] <JFo> [17:19] <JFo>   * 147 maverick bugs
[17:19] <JFo>   * 193 lucid bugs (up 16)
[17:19] <JFo>   * 40 karmic bugs (up 3)
[17:19] <JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
[17:19] <JFo> [17:19] <JFo>   * 13 maverick bugs
[17:19] <JFo>   * 7 lucid bugs (up 1)
[17:19] <JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
[17:19] <JFo> Please note that I have removed Jaunty from the listing above.
[17:19] <JFo>  
[17:19] <JFo> ..
[17:19] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
[17:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
[17:19] <JFo> The next Kernel Bug Day will be next Tuesday. The focus will be on bugs with patches attached
[17:19] <JFo> in order to begin the serious amount of work to be done there. I am planning to work with Andy
[17:19] <JFo> and Tim this week to see how we will handle Team Bug Days since we are changing the way we do
[17:19] <JFo> the Top Bugs each week. I will also begin working up a weekly report of the major bugs we are looking at.
[17:19] <JFo> Chances are I will make some of that data available during this meeting going forward.
[17:20] <JFo> ..
[17:20] <bjf> please note that if we take any of those patches, we either need the HW to verify them or have a commitment from the community to verify them or they weill be reverted
[17:20] <bjf> ..
[17:21] <JFo> yep, noted..
[17:21] <bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
[17:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
[17:21] <JFo> I talked with a number of the folks we work with to triage bugs during UDS, but, other than that,
[17:21] <JFo> I have nothing to report on as far as status. I am, however, interested in your thoughts on holding
[17:21] <JFo> another Kernel Triage Summit. We could do our own again, or we can make it a part of one of the
[17:21] <JFo> community events such as Ubuntu Developer Week, Open Week, etc.
[17:21] <JFo> ..
[17:22] <bjf> based on all the effort that you've put into getting community involvement, did we get any value or would you have been better off just doing that amount of effort in triaging yourself?
[17:22] <JFo> we saw some benefit, but I think it is too early to tell the impact
[17:23] <JFo> I'd have to defer to those who presented and attended as to the usefulness
[17:23] <JFo> I felt it was a success
[17:23] <JFo> more so than I had hoped for
[17:23] <JFo> ogasawara, what did you think?
[17:23] <bjf> i'm asking about community triaging in general
[17:23] <JFo> ah,
[17:24] <JFo> we saw some improvement, but I don't know if it was commensurate with the effort involved
[17:24] <JFo> in organizing our own I mean
[17:24] <JFo> I think we could do one session at one of the other planned events
[17:24] <JFo> and get the same level of return
[17:25] <JFo> either that
[17:25] <JFo> or we can generate some documentation on various areas and make it available online
[17:25] <JFo> so as to limit the impact on everyones already limited free time
[17:25] <JFo>  I'm open to suggestion offline
[17:25] <JFo> ..
[17:26] <JFo> in summary
[17:26] <JFo> I think I could have just done the triage effort myself
[17:26] <JFo> ..
[17:26] <JFo> :)
[17:26] <bjf> ..
[17:26] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
[17:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
[17:27] <bjf> thanks everyone
[17:27] <bjf> #endmeeting
[17:27] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:27.
[17:27] <JFo> thanks bjf
[17:27] <kamal> thanks bjf
[17:27] <sconklin> thanks bjf!
[17:28] <jjohansen> thanks bjf
[17:29] <smb> bjf, thanks
[17:29] <SergioMeneses> hi o/
[18:03] <mdeslaur> hello
[18:03] <jjohansen> hi
[18:05] <SergioMeneses> mdeslaur, jjohansen \o
[18:07] <jdstrand> o/
[18:09]  * sbeattie waves
[18:11] <kees> \o
[18:13] <jdstrand> kees: are you running the meeting, or shall I?
[18:15] <kees> jdstrand: you can, I'm still trying to collect my status report to email out
[18:16] <jdstrand> #startmeeting
[18:16] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:16. The chair is jdstrand.
[18:16] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:16] <jdstrand> welcome to the ubuntu-security team meeting, postponed from yesterday
[18:16] <jdstrand> I guess I'll start, but I have several items to discuss at the end
[18:17] <jdstrand> so far this week I have been finishing up things so I can focus on dbus/apparmor integration
[18:17] <jdstrand> I uploaded the iptables merge and did the libnfnetlink MIR done
[18:18] <jdstrand> I am reviewing some sponsored libvirt uploads as well
[18:18] <jdstrand> once that is done, I will dive into dbus, and then finally be able to talk to jjohansen about it
[18:19] <jjohansen> \o/
[18:19] <jdstrand> later in the week I hope to finish my merges and test thunderbird for the 3.0 -> 3.1 migration on lucid
[18:19] <jdstrand> I have a sneaking suspicion another firefox is coming, so I may need to do that some
[18:20] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next (let's let kees go after sbeattie)
[18:20] <mdeslaur> I'm going to be doing some merges this week
[18:20] <mdeslaur> and I have a quagga update coming out
[18:20] <jdstrand> oh, I forgot, I need to follow up on the lucid apparmor SRU
[18:20] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: (sorry for interrupting)
[18:21] <mdeslaur> I'll be investigating a way to test python-paste
[18:21] <mdeslaur> and I have a virt-manager SRU to do
[18:21] <mdeslaur> I think we're releasing flash updates today, so I have that to package
[18:21] <mdeslaur> that's it for me
[18:21] <mdeslaur> sbeattie?
[18:22]  * sbeattie is on community this week.
[18:22] <sbeattie> as part of that,I'm working on sponsering a proftpd upload.
[18:22] <sbeattie> I also have an openssl update to push out.
[18:23] <sbeattie> beyond that, I want to poke more than the token amount that I have on the maverick apparmor sru.
[18:23] <sbeattie> and will help out with the lucid one, as well.
[18:23] <sbeattie> I think that's all I've got.
[18:23] <sbeattie> kees?
[18:24] <kees> okay, did a bunch of kernel work last week
[18:24] <kees> the XD_DISABLE patches are in a tip branch for testing
[18:24] <kees> I'm going to try to get them into Ubuntu too, for full happiness
[18:24] <jdstrand> sbeattie: are you aware of report-todo-sponsoring from UCT and security-fake-sync from security-tools?
[18:24] <kees> drosenbe's dmesg_restrict went in upstream, so I'm going to try to get that enabled by default in Ubuntu (see ubuntu-devel email)
[18:25] <kees> this week, I'm on triage, and I'll be continuing to chase up upstream constification work
[18:25] <sbeattie> jdstrand: not so much; I'll look at them, thanks.
[18:25] <jdstrand> sbeattie: feel free to ping me when you are ready to look at them (esp security-fake-sync)
[18:25] <kees> I've got lvm2 to review for mdeslaur, and a stack of PHP audits to do too.
[18:25] <kees> that's it from me.
[18:26] <jdstrand> cool
[18:26] <jdstrand> are there any non-status update items from anyone before I dive in?
[18:27]  * jdstrand takes that as a no
[18:27] <jdstrand> so first off...
[18:28] <jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur, sbeattie: if you guys haven't already done so, we need to retartget any maverick (and lucid) bps to natty
[18:28] <kees> jdstrand: oh, fun, yes.
[18:28] <jdstrand> this needs to be done by Nov 18 (thursday), so really tomorrow eod
[18:28] <sbeattie> ah, right, thanks.
[18:29] <jdstrand> pitti is going to redo the reports or somethings, and I think the hard deadline for the bps is the 18th
[18:29] <jdstrand> I have the list we discussed that I can provide outside of this meeting if needed
[18:29] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: that would be nice, yea
[18:29] <jdstrand> (and all that applies to me too-- I haven't already done any of this)
[18:29] <jdstrand> k
[18:30] <mdeslaur> do we need to recreate the blueprints, or can we just switch them over?
[18:30] <jdstrand> also, at UDS we were asked by wendar to discuss and put in the wiki a sort of security checklist for ARB
[18:30] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: there should be a way to just retarget them
[18:30] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: we can talk to robbiew about it-- he indicated it should be easy
[18:30] <mdeslaur> ok, I'll try
[18:31] <mdeslaur> ARB?
[18:31] <kees> Application Review Board, iirc?
[18:31] <jdstrand> I have put our discussion (and a couple of extra things I thought of) in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PostReleaseApps/SecurityChecklist
[18:31] <jdstrand> Application Review Board, yes
[18:31] <robbiew> mdeslaur: jdstrand yeah...send me a list and I can do it
[18:31] <mdeslaur> ETOOMANYACRONYMS
[18:32] <jdstrand> if each of us could review that wiki page that would be great
[18:32] <jdstrand> we can discuss in #ubuntu-hardened
[18:32] <jdstrand> I'd like to get that to wendar soon since they are moving forward in various ways
[18:34] <jdstrand> lastly, I'd like to encourage us to strive to be more transparent
[18:34] <sbeattie> jdstrand: re ARB recommendations, what about long term suggestions to ease sandboxing mediation?
[18:34] <jdstrand> eg, send activity reports to the whole team, and perhaps announce on a "dailyish" basis what we are working on
[18:35] <jdstrand> sbeattie: I think that is definitely worth discussion, but not sure that document is where it should happen. perhaps talk to wendar about that
[18:35] <jdstrand> sbeattie: I know some discussion is happening in ubuntu-devel@
[18:36] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: sounds like a good idea
[18:36] <jdstrand> we talked about being more transparent a bit last week (ad-hoc)
[18:36] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: do we not send our activity reports to security@ right now?
[18:36] <mdeslaur> (and robbiew)
[18:36] <jdstrand> I know I find it all too easy to get my nose in my work and forget to communicate what I am working on
[18:36] <sbeattie> mdeslaur: not all of us (looks sternly in mirror) are strict about doing that.
[18:36] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: yes, that is what we all should be doing
[18:37] <mdeslaur> sbeattie: oh :)
[18:37] <robbiew> well.../me stopped collating them for ubuntu-devel
[18:37] <mdeslaur> ok, so how about we announce what we're going to do when we arrive in the morning?
[18:37] <jdstrand> missing a week or sending it late isn't an issue. it is just nice that we know what each other is working on so we know what to help with or pick up
[18:38] <jdstrand> robbiew: it seems a lot of teams are not doing that any more... I'm not sure it should go to ubuntu-devel@, but I certainly find it useful to see what the others are doing
[18:38] <jjohansen> err, I would suggest checking mail before announcing what you are going to do
[18:39] <kees> yeah
[18:39] <robbiew> yeah...I'm a +1 on the team knowing
[18:39] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: I am not sure it has to be even that formalized
[18:39] <robbiew> as for ubuntu-devel...seems to get lost in the noise, imo
[18:39] <jdstrand> I just want to make sure we are coordinating appropriately and in general being a team
[18:39] <jdstrand> I know that mdeslaur and sbeattie picked up the same update some time recently
[18:39] <mdeslaur> I sure am curious what you guys are doing sometimes :P
[18:40] <mdeslaur> so I'm all for it
[18:40] <jdstrand> plus, you guys are so awesome I like to feel awesome by proxy by knowing what you are working on :)
[18:40] <mdeslaur> hehe
[18:41] <jdstrand> I feel pretty strongly that we shouldn't feel like just a bunch of individuals working totally independently. we should foster a sense of team and a great way of doing that is sharing our work
[18:41] <jdstrand> (ie, sharing with others what we are doing as well as workload)
[18:41] <mdeslaur> that, and bringing in a box of donuts to work once in a while
[18:41] <jdstrand> anyway, my two cents :)
[18:42] <jdstrand> mdeslaur: I like chocolate with sprinkles and jelly. at least for next time :)
[18:42] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: ugh, you can have those ones :)
[18:42] <jdstrand> I might surprise you after that
[18:42] <jdstrand> hehe
[18:43] <jdstrand> kees, sbeattie, mdeslaur: what do you think about being more vocal with the team on what we are working on?
[18:43] <jjohansen> generally I think its a good idea
[18:43] <jjohansen> but its easy to over do it
[18:43] <jdstrand> (some concensus would be nice and our ad-hoc discussion last week didn't really come to a conclusion)
[18:44] <jdstrand> jjohansen: not suggesting twitter :)
[18:44] <sbeattie> jdstrand: +1 from me, I'm just not very good at doing that.
[18:44] <jdstrand> I don't think I am either
[18:44] <jjohansen> jdstrand: oh, so the new fb messaging? :P
[18:44] <jdstrand> but if we strive for it, I think we'll figure out the right balance
[18:45] <jdstrand> it isn't about being overly chatty or unproductive... just a little sharing witht the team
[18:45] <jjohansen> my only suggestion is that I think it works better if its kept informal
[18:45] <jjohansen> yep
[18:45] <jdstrand> jjohansen: I would agree
[18:45] <kees> I'm for it; informal is good.
[18:45] <sbeattie> jjohansen: I plan to broadcast updates via fingerd.
[18:45] <jjohansen> awesome!
[18:45]  * jdstrand is just trying to encourage a little sharing which might lead to cool/productive discussion
[18:46] <mdeslaur> well, how about this: if I forget to mention what I'm working on, a simple "Hey, mdeslaur, what you up to?" to remind me would be cool
[18:46] <jdstrand> that sounds good
[18:46] <jdstrand> that goes for me too
[18:46] <jdstrand> we can see how it goes and if we are bugging each other it is ok to say so :)
[18:47] <jdstrand> alrighty, seems we've probably beat that horse enough
[18:47] <jdstrand> anything else for the security team?
[18:48] <jdstrand> going once
[18:48] <jdstrand> going twice
[18:48] <mdeslaur> sold! to the lady with the hat
[18:49] <jdstrand> #endmeeting
[18:49] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:49.
[18:49] <jdstrand> :)
[18:49] <jdstrand> thanks everyone!
[18:49] <mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
[18:49] <mdeslaur> thanks everyone
[18:49] <sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
[18:49] <jdstrand> \o/
[20:11] <huats> sorry I am late
[20:12] <highvoltage> for?
[20:12] <PontusOhman> huats: > The meeting will begin in +45 min
[20:12] <huats> rrrggg thanks to the daylight savings...
[20:12] <huats> PontusOhman, thanks
[20:13] <huats> highvoltage, Loco Council meeting
[20:13] <PontusOhman> huats: Check: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
[20:14] <huats> PontusOhman, yeah I know
[20:14] <Nafallo> huats: well, to be fair, the fridge calendar and the Agenda says different times.
[20:14] <huats> just my memory
[20:14] <huats> :)
[20:21] <PontusOhman> czajkowski: When will the meeting begin?! The agenda says 21.00 for me, that's 20 minutes ago! The fridge says 22.00 for me, thats about 40 minutes?!
[20:24] <popey> ola
[20:24] <PontusOhman> popey: =)
[20:24] <popey> LoCo Council meeting is in 35 mins yes?
[20:25] <Nafallo> popey: depends... are you following the calendar or the agenda? :-)
[20:25] <PontusOhman> popey: I dunno! The agenda says it should started about 25 minutes ago, the fridge says in the next 35 minutes
[20:25] <popey> ah
[20:25] <popey> oops
[20:25] <Nafallo> obviously it should be :30! :-D
[20:25] <itnet7> I'll fix the agenda, I'm there
[20:25] <highvoltage> I wish people in countries with DST would pest their government to do away with it!
[20:25] <Nafallo> hi itnet7 :-)
[20:25] <itnet7> highvoltage: we've tried
[20:25] <itnet7> hey there Nafallo !
[20:26] <huats> popey, I arrived 15 minutes ago saying "sorry I am late"
[20:26] <huats> :)
[20:26] <popey> haha
[20:26] <popey> sorry I'm late
[20:26] <huats> and hello popey and itnet7 btw :)
[20:26] <Nafallo> highvoltage: but but... not being on the timeline for half a year is such fun...
[20:26] <Nafallo> popey: you're late and early at the same time :-P
[20:26] <PontusOhman> O_o :D
[20:26] <popey> whats the plan then? shall we start at :30 ?
[20:27] <popey> or bump to the next hour?
[20:27] <popey> I'm happy either way
[20:27] <PontusOhman> If we will start in 30 minutes, I will pass it over to my chairman Farmfield
[20:27] <Nafallo> popey: we are missing people though?
[20:27] <popey> who?
[20:28] <popey> czajkowski is standing next to me :)
[20:28] <popey> just getting her to get her laptop out
[20:28] <popey> start in 2 mins huats / itnet7 ?
[20:28] <Nafallo> popey: hah. fair enough. paultag and leogg then? :-)
[20:28] <itnet7> fine with me
[20:29] <huats> popey, euh 32 minutes I think
[20:29] <PontusOhman> Can I get an answer on, why was it two diffrent times for this meeting?! The Agenda told me 20.00 UTC (For me it was 30 minutes ago) and the fridge tells me it's 21.00 CET (In about 30 minutes)
[20:29] <popey> PontusOhman: daylight savings time
[20:29] <huats> popey, since there is something that is not really fixed I would be in favout of the latest
[20:30] <PontusOhman> popey: > That's s*cks
[20:30] <popey> ok,that would suit me and czajkowski too given I'm just bringing lasagne out of the oven :)
[20:30] <popey> PontusOhman: sorry, we'll fix it
[20:30] <popey> it happens every 6 months unfortunately
[20:30] <huats> (my meat balls are just going to the oven to be honnest :))
[20:30] <PontusOhman> It's ok :)
[20:30] <huats> popey, have a nice meal my friend :)
[20:31] <popey> ok, so in 29 mins
[20:32] <mghg__> popey: you can not blame it on daylight savings time. It is 20:00 UTC according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda, and 21:00 GMT according to http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar.
[20:34] <popey> I can't ?
[20:34] <itnet7> mghg__: refresh
[20:34] <popey> that link shows 21:00 LoCo Council Meeting here.
[20:34] <Farmfield> I think someone is missing that it's changed this year. Did UK even have daylight savings before?
[20:34] <popey> yes, we've had DST for about 50 years or so
[20:35] <czajkowski> well these things happens
[20:35] <czajkowski> and it's only happened once
[20:35] <czajkowski> and the agenda has only 2 items. so not the end of the world
[20:35] <Farmfield> No prob's folks
[20:35] <Farmfield> :)
[20:36] <Nafallo> Farmfield: yes. we have BST every year :-)
[20:36] <Farmfield> We as in we Swedes? ;)
[20:37] <Farmfield> To long ago I lived in UK to remember...
[20:37] <mghg__> Two different sources gives different meeting starting times. Neither UTC and GMT change depending on seasons, i.e. daylight savings do not apply
[20:40] <Farmfield> There's a point where things are what they are and we passed that point a while back now, hehe... The meeting is in 20 minutes and the 'why' or 'which time is correct' isn't really important... ;)
[20:42] <Nafallo> Farmfield: well said
[20:43] <Farmfield> Nafallo: When you takn as much as I do you're bound to say something intelligent once and again... ;)
[20:43] <Farmfield> (t a L k)
[20:44] <Nafallo> heh
[20:58] <PontusOhman> Will be here in a few seconds... Darn thé :)
[21:03] <PontusOhman> Time for GO GO GO?! It's 5 minutes late :D
[21:03] <czajkowski> aloha
[21:03] <czajkowski> PontusOhman: 3 mins in fact
[21:03] <czajkowski> lets not get ahead of ourselves
[21:03] <PontusOhman> :)
[21:03] <popey> yes, lets be behind by about an hour
[21:04] <Nafallo> czajkowski: 3:30 at the time he said it ;-)
[21:04] <czajkowski> Nafallo: lets not be a brat shall we
[21:04] <peetra> _o/
[21:04] <Nafallo> heh
[21:04] <PontusOhman> O_o
[21:04] <czajkowski> aloha
[21:05] <huats> hello
[21:05] <czajkowski> #startmeeting
[21:05] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:05. The chair is czajkowski.
[21:05] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:05] <czajkowski> aloha to tonights meeting
[21:05] <czajkowski> [topic] Sweden loco re approval
[21:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sweden loco re approval
[21:06] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwedishTeam/ReApprovalApplication
[21:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SwedishTeam/ReApprovalApplication
[21:06] <popey> Who's here form Sweden?
[21:06] <czajkowski> huats: leogg itnet7 popey evening folks
[21:06]  * Nafallo looks for Farmfield 
[21:06] <peetra> _o/ I am a Swesish speaking Finnish girl, active in the Swedish LoCo. _o/
[21:06]  * PontusOhman Is from Sweden and I'm the Team Contact for Ubuntu Sweden
[21:06] <Farmfield> I'm the TeamLeader
[21:06] <leogg> hi all
[21:07] <Farmfield> ...for the Swedish LoCo
[21:07] <czajkowski> PontusOhman: Farmfield nice arrangement
[21:07] <czajkowski> Farmfield: so care to tell us a bit about your team please
[21:07] <Hund> Im here to. Im one of the admins.
[21:08] <amelia> I'm also from the Swedish LoCo, but i'm one of the serveradmins so i'll keep my mouth shut for most of the evening. :)
[21:08] <Nafallo> IRC channel founder and ubuntu-se.org host ←
[21:08] <czajkowski> amelia: heh
[21:08] <itnet7> Hey there!
[21:09] <huats> finally itnet7 :P
[21:09] <czajkowski> Farmfield: ???
[21:09] <Nafallo> meh, arrow on wrong side of the text :-P
[21:09] <itnet7> Sorry :-P looking at the re-approval
[21:09] <Farmfield> The team. We have a TL and a TC, a quite new combo. Before that (18 months ago) there was 2TC's.  We run phpBB as forum and have 3 active admins there. We also have about 5 active moderators. Then we have HakanS - who is here - who's in charge of our Drupal Portal.
[21:10] <czajkowski> Farmfield: sounds great from the admin side of things, what about your community
[21:10]  * HakanS is here
[21:11] <Farmfield> We have a stabile community but is lacking in growth.
[21:11] <czajkowski> Farmfield: how many active members do you have
[21:11]  * Nafallo shims in and says the irc channel has about 120 people most of the time
[21:11] <Farmfield> We've been speculating about the 'why' but it might be Ubuntu is to good.
[21:12] <Farmfield> Growth come from new visitors seeking support and then engaging as enthisiasts. That's in decline
[21:12] <Farmfield> We have 200 active members.
[21:12] <peetra> ppl don't need the support in the same way any  more, most stuff can be solved with google.
[21:13]  * PontusOhman Is a good example, 2009 new to Ubuntu, 2010 sleeping admin and active Team Contact for Ubuntu Sweden :)
[21:13] <Farmfield> 200 people is exluding 50-100 active on IRC. I'm not much of an IRC'er så forgot that. Sry.
[21:13] <czajkowski> Farmfield: well you have 59 members on launchpad but 16000 people on forums
[21:13] <czajkowski> massive difference
[21:13] <czajkowski> can you perhaps tell us why there is a lack of interest in becoming part of the team
[21:13] <peetra> But with an average of 3000-4000 visitors/day i think it is a very needed site, even if the community is not spamming it all the time/ every five minute.
[21:14] <Farmfield> people register to ask how to change the background picture and then they don't need more support, they won't register at Launchpad
[21:14] <Farmfield> ;)
[21:14] <peetra> Launchpad is difficult and hard to find anything at all in especially for newbies (like me)
[21:15]  * Nafallo wasn't aware we had a launchpad group...
[21:15] <PontusOhman> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-se
[21:15] <itnet7> Farmfield: I see you have an irc channel, do you do monthly meetings?
[21:15] <Farmfield> I gotta go for 2 minutes - my son is having a breakdown.
[21:15] <czajkowski> well most members sign up on lp
[21:16] <peetra> No monthly meetings
[21:16] <czajkowski> PontusOhman: can you tell us about events you run
[21:16] <czajkowski> what do you do for face to face events
[21:16] <Nafallo> now we have 60 people on LP :-P
[21:16] <PontusOhman> Will try to do my best here so...
[21:16] <peetra> i signed up on lp by mistake. ^^ It came with the Ubuntu One thingy?
[21:17] <PontusOhman> We got some ppl on different places over Sweden that have release parties in the spring and in the autumn
[21:17] <czajkowski> PontusOhman: thanks
[21:17] <Farmfield> Condoms people. Use them.
[21:17] <Farmfield> And yes, I'm back.
[21:17] <peetra> *61
[21:18] <PontusOhman> And if you ask us about monthly meetings in the LoCo, no not at this moment we have it.
[21:18] <PontusOhman> But I have plans to bring it up for us in the future :)
[21:19] <peetra> [IDEA] Monthly meetings at the IRC channel
[21:19] <MootBot> IDEA received:  Monthly meetings at the IRC channel
[21:19] <czajkowski> PontusOhman: any regular meet ups or life outside of the forums
[21:19] <czajkowski> i'm not saying forums are bad
[21:19] <czajkowski> just 16000 v 61 people is a massive differene
[21:19] <PontusOhman> czajkowski: Yes, we have!
[21:19] <peetra> The forums rules!
[21:20] <PontusOhman> As a fact I'm running a GNU/LUG in my town that's meets up every month
[21:20] <Nafallo> I believe part of the trouble here is awareness of the launchpad group.
[21:20] <czajkowski> PontusOhman: a GNU/LUG isn't a loco
[21:20] <Nafallo> I've been with the LoCo from the very very very beginning, and I didn't know about such a group.
[21:20] <Farmfield>  czajkowski: The Swedish LoCo is focused on support - even though everything else is there. But focusing on support equals phpBB and that's why we're 16.000 + members in phpBB
[21:21] <peetra> I can't see why we need new Ubuntu users in the lp-team? That is the problem, can czajkowski tell us why?
[21:21] <leogg> peetra: for translations and bug reports?
[21:21] <huats> What about Team reports ?
[21:22] <huats> are you doing them ? if not do you plan to ?
[21:22] <czajkowski> peetra: for being a part of the ubuntu community
[21:22] <peetra> okej, so we should get all the windows emigrants directly involved with bug reports and translating? :O
[21:22] <Nafallo> leogg: translations is mostly handled directly upstream. we have some great guys working on that. we tend to not use launchpad, but commit straight.
[21:22] <popey> 16000 is a significant chunk of people
[21:23] <itnet7> Peetra no one said to get all of them into LP, even though that would be awesome for a 16k+ team in LP
[21:23] <peetra> :D
[21:23] <itnet7> but as people get involved with the team, the natural thing would be to encourage them to join your LoCo and help the team contribute, even teach them how
[21:23] <Nafallo> I'm not sure how bug reports would tie in to a launchpad group specifically? also, most of peoples problems can be solved in forums/on irc. it's very seldom I've seen people with genuine bugs on the IRC channel
[21:23] <PontusOhman> czajkowski: If we lock beyond the the release parties... Some groups (cities / towns) from the LoCo meets up
[21:24] <leogg> Nafallo: bug reporting is a nice and easy way to contribute back to the community :)
[21:25] <Nafallo> leogg: yes, if the problems are genuine bugs... :-)
[21:25] <Farmfield> I must ask  czajkowski and popey; What about 16.000 people? It's the abount of registered members - many of them not more than casual visitors asking 1-3 questions - generated since fall 2004. It's not a massive amount of people, it's a long time.
[21:25] <Nafallo> I'm not debating the importance of bug reports here :-)
[21:26] <czajkowski> Farmfield: as i said it's not a bad thing, i just wonder why they are not part of your loco
[21:26] <czajkowski> being on a forum isn't the same thing
[21:26] <leogg> Nafallo: me neither, I just don't understand why there are so few people on lp :)
[21:26] <popey> We have plenty of documentation detailing how people can get involved in Ubuntu - I don't think this meeting should be trying to cover all of that
[21:26]  * peetra helps the Swedish community with phpBB and is shore that Ubuntu will manage w/o her raporting bugs
[21:27] <popey> What I would like to see is more documentation from the Swedish team of advocacy and other ubuntu community 'work' done over the last year.
[21:27] <czajkowski> peetra: if everyone took that attitude we'd have no bugs reported though
[21:27] <peetra> I haven't time to do everything
[21:27] <Nafallo> leogg: because if me, as one of the first three loco members, doesn't know about such a group.. I can assure you Mr Member doesn't know about it either :-)
[21:27] <Farmfield> itnet7: For us, joining the team doesn't involve lp, it involves projects within the LoCo. We havent been good utulizing lp for organizing the LoCo, we've used out own forum.
[21:28] <popey> Whilst forum based support and discussion is fantastic (and you've clearly got a significant number of people using the forums) a LoCo team is also about advocacy, bug jams, triaging, translating.. building the community around the team and encouraging people to get involved in the project.
[21:28] <czajkowski> Farmfield: do you use the loco directory ?
[21:28] <popey> IMO
[21:28] <popey> Farmfield: when you say 'organizing the loco' what does that mean?
[21:28] <Farmfield>  czajkowski: I say as 'Bones' on TV: I don't know what that meens.
[21:28] <PontusOhman> popey: > We got documentation for 8.04 LTS, 9.04, 9.10 and 10.04 LTS, and 10.10 is comming up! Both the Desktop and the server is coverd in there :)
[21:29] <itnet7> Farmfield: What happens if you lose your hosting?
[21:29] <czajkowski> Farmfield: you've never heard of the loco directory?
[21:29] <czajkowski> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-se
[21:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-se
[21:29] <Farmfield> czajkowski: Noops. But I guess I should be really ashamed.
[21:29] <itnet7> Or if you happen to burn out, does everyone in the team have all the administrative details?
[21:30] <Farmfield> itnet7: Whi os 'you'?
[21:30] <Nafallo> itnet7: I'm hosting them... :-)
[21:30] <Farmfield> itnet7: Who is 'you' in that question?
[21:30]  * peetra likes Nafallo
[21:30] <itnet7> Farmfield: are you the leader?
[21:31] <Farmfield> itnet7: TeamLeader, yes.
[21:31] <cmpitg> A TeamLeader never heard of the Team?
[21:31] <itnet7> Well, teams use launchpad to help manage their LoCo's
[21:32] <itnet7> for the most part
[21:32] <Farmfield> In general: We have 2 backups made daily to external servers, backup server admins a.s.o... That's not an issue at all.
[21:32] <amelia> itnet7: we're hosting the server in UK (nafallo takes care of that), within the serveradmin group i can assure we could have another server up an running within a day and we also keep backups in two different locations in sweden.
[21:32] <leogg> Farmfield: IMO as a team leader you should be more aware of what's going on outside the LoCo
[21:32] <czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the re approval of the Swedish loco reapproval. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE.
[21:32] <MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the re approval of the Swedish loco reapproval. ONLY COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE..
[21:32] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:32] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:32] <czajkowski> -1
[21:32] <MootBot> -1 received from czajkowski. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[21:32] <MootBot> Private -1 vote received. 0 for, 2 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
[21:32] <huats> -1
[21:32] <MootBot> -1 received from huats. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
[21:32] <popey> I'd like to see more real life events, and other community contribution to the project
[21:33] <popey> -1
[21:33] <MootBot> -1 received from popey. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4
[21:33] <leogg> same here
[21:33] <leogg> -1
[21:33] <itnet7> +0
[21:33] <Farmfield> leogg: I am, but it's all a question about the subject. Which subject are you referring to?
[21:33] <MootBot> -1 received from leogg. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5
[21:33] <MootBot> Abstention received from itnet7. 0 for, 5 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -5
[21:33] <czajkowski> #endvote
[21:33] <popey> Sorry guys and gals..
[21:33] <czajkowski> [endvote]
[21:33] <MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 5 against. 1 abstained. Total: -5
[21:33] <leogg> Farmfield: are you subscribed to the locoteams mailing list?
[21:33] <czajkowski> [agreed] sweden loco un approved
[21:33] <MootBot> AGREED received:  sweden loco un approved
[21:33] <Farmfield> insane. Show me one loco who match us
[21:33] <PontusOhman> leogg: > I am
[21:33] <popey> We can certainly help to get you moving in the right direction.
[21:33] <Farmfield> And we have 6 years running now
[21:34] <Nafallo> Farmfield: actually no. 5 at the most.
[21:34] <leogg> PontusOhman: that's great
[21:34] <PontusOhman> I'm the TC for Ubuntu Sweden
[21:34] <czajkowski> [topic] Vietnam  loco re approval
[21:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  Vietnam  loco re approval
[21:34] <czajkowski> anyone here from Vietnam
[21:34] <Farmfield> Nafallo: Founded fall 2004 according to the wiki?
[21:34] <czajkowski> ?
[21:34] <ptkhanh> o/
[21:34] <afterlastangel> yes
[21:34] <afterlastangel> 1+
[21:34] <CoconutCrab> I am here
[21:35] <cmpitg> Me, too
[21:35] <CoconutCrab> o/
[21:35] <czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VietnameseTeam/ReApprovalApplication
[21:35] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VietnameseTeam/ReApprovalApplication
[21:35] <ducgiang_8888> me
[21:35] <cmpitg> I'm a new secretary for Ubuntu-VN
[21:35] <czajkowski> ok welcome
[21:35] <afterlastangel> Hello, everyone.
[21:35] <czajkowski> so who is the team leader or point of contact for this meeting ?
[21:35] <PontusOhman> We will come back :)
[21:35] <afterlastangel> according wiki this is CoconutCrab
[21:36] <czajkowski> [link] http://www.ubuntu-vn.org/
[21:36] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu-vn.org/
[21:36] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: this is our portal, for news and local activity
[21:36] <cmpitg> czajkowski: The portal is being very general
[21:37] <czajkowski> ok
[21:37] <czajkowski> CoconutCrab: so care to tell us about your team ?
[21:37] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: we also provide support for new user via web-based IRC form the portal
[21:37] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: I am the team contact but currently busy with my schoolwork, so I will ask my friend to do the talking
[21:38] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: afterlastangel will do it
[21:38] <afterlastangel> CoconutCrab: thanks.
[21:38] <CoconutCrab> and I will aid him, together with cmpitg and ptkhanh
[21:38] <cmpitg> Sure
[21:38] <czajkowski> ok can someone please tell the council about the team please
[21:39] <cmpitg> afterlastangel represents team from the South, me from the North
[21:39] <cmpitg> Okay, me first
[21:39] <cmpitg> The Ubuntu-VN community has around 16,000 members, current ~50 most active members
[21:40] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: did you mean how many people are their in out council?
[21:40] <czajkowski> afterlastangel: no the loco council.
[21:40] <cmpitg> We have 1,300 active members per months
[21:40] <cmpitg> czajkowski: Okay, I see
[21:40] <peetra> Okey folks, I checked some facts and over 10 000/ 16 000 users have actually logged in  to the forum the last year, I am very suprised to find such a great user rate.
[21:41] <cmpitg> The local council have ~20 members
[21:41] <cmpitg> 15 members active every week
[21:41] <czajkowski> peetra: we've moved onto another team please
[21:41] <peetra> oh, shit
[21:41] <czajkowski> cmpitg: what council is this
[21:41] <peetra> srry
[21:41] <cmpitg> czajkowski: Ubuntu-VN Loco Administration Team
[21:41] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: ptkhanh, afterlastangel, cmpitg, excrypf and me are from #ubuntu-vn
[21:42] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: I will take over the talking from here
[21:42] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: is that okay with you?
[21:43] <popey> if it's difficult we could do the approval via email?
[21:43] <popey> if the translation is difficult we can give more time
[21:43] <CoconutCrab> Ubuntu-vn is around 6 years old Loco
[21:44] <CoconutCrab> we have a forum, and irc channel #ubuntu-vn and a mailling list
[21:44] <CoconutCrab> but the forum is the most active
[21:44] <czajkowski> CoconutCrab: can you tell us why so there are activities only going back to september this year listed http://wiki.ubuntu-vn.org/index.php/LocoTeam_Activities
[21:44] <CoconutCrab> because it is the most popular way of communicating on the internet
[21:45] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: because before that, us student have to do the exam :), also summer vacation
[21:45] <CoconutCrab> I know that isn't a good answer
[21:45] <czajkowski> CoconutCrab: but you've said you're active for 6 years
[21:45] <CoconutCrab> but most of ubuntu-vn members are students and pupil
[21:45] <cmpitg> That's right
[21:45] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: the old people has moved away, like the founder
[21:45] <CoconutCrab> we haven't heard from him for more than one year
[21:46] <cmpitg> Also
[21:46] <CoconutCrab> like me, I have only joined ubuntu-vn for 2 years
[21:46] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: the /LocoTeam_Activities are log since the first approval
[21:46] <czajkowski> right but you were approved 2 years ago and only list event since september 2010
[21:46] <cmpitg> Because we consist of mostly students, offline activities are prefered
[21:46] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: no
[21:46] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: just about months.
[21:46] <czajkowski> afterlastangel: well the wiki page is then not up to date.
[21:47] <CoconutCrab> another reason is that before september, we didn't have a secretary to do the reporting
[21:47] <leogg> afterlastangel: you were approved a couple of months ago?
[21:47] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: we were approved April this year
[21:47] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: their are some misunderstanding
[21:47] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: semi-approved :)
[21:47] <CoconutCrab> czajkowski: with a condition to re-approve in the next few months
[21:47] <leogg> CoconutCrab: yes, I remember... we asked you to come back
[21:48] <cmpitg> czajkowski: As you see, the wiki page was created recently, but it already has plenty of information
[21:48] <CoconutCrab> leogg: :)
[21:48] <cmpitg> czajkowski: Since we now have a secrectary
[21:48] <czajkowski> it's a wiki page, you don't need a secretary to update a wiki page.
[21:48] <czajkowski> anyone can do it
[21:48] <cmpitg> czajkowski: But we need some one who do the report and summarize them
[21:49] <cmpitg> czajkowski: Make statistics, strategies, ...
[21:49] <cmpitg> czajkowski: This has to be done in a centralized way
[21:49] <cmpitg> czajkowski: So that the activities could be more effective
[21:49] <czajkowski> cmpitg: hmm not really tbh.
[21:50] <cmpitg> czajkowski: This could be improved
[21:50] <cmpitg> czajkowski: In a very rapid period of time
[21:51] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: we have just  run as a Approved Loco team for 7 months and had 4 activities offline
[21:51] <cmpitg> Actually 4 "big" activities
[21:52] <cmpitg> We have weekly and monthly meetings an AUF/CNF centers
[21:52] <cmpitg> Where we provide support, trial, ... everything related to LP and Ubuntu
[21:52] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: I mean we want to have more activity out the forum and the Internet, could bring ubuntu to more people in Vietnam where the Internet access maybe luxury
[21:53] <cmpitg> From OOo.org training, Ubuntu tips and tricks, installing and using, ...
[21:53] <cmpitg> We have constantly 2 people working on it every Saturday afternoon
[21:53] <cmpitg> So every one could find us anytime
[21:54] <czajkowski> ok think we're ready to vote
[21:54] <cmpitg> Okay
[21:54] <afterlastangel> czajkowski: we forgot adding the 10.04 Release party .. I think this is the fifth activity
[21:54] <czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the re approval of the Vietnamese loco.  ONLY UBUNTU LOCO COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE.
[21:54] <MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the re approval of the Vietnamese loco.  ONLY UBUNTU LOCO COUNCIL MEMBERS VOTE..
[21:54] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[21:54] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[21:54] <czajkowski> -1
[21:54] <MootBot> -1 received from czajkowski. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[21:54] <huats> 0
[21:54] <MootBot> Private +1 vote received. 1 for, 1 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:55] <leogg> 0
[21:55] <popey> 0
[21:55] <popey> +0
[21:55] <MootBot> Abstention received from popey. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:55] <leogg> +0
[21:55] <MootBot> Abstention received from leogg. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:56] <huats> +0
[21:56] <MootBot> Abstention received from huats. 1 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 0
[21:56] <czajkowski> itnet7: ping
[21:57] <czajkowski> well 4/6 of us have voted
[21:57] <czajkowski> [endvote]
[21:57] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 1 against. 3 abstained. Total: 0
[21:57] <Nafallo> 5/6
[21:58] <popey> yes, 5/6
[21:58] <cmpitg> And...?
[21:58] <czajkowski> [agreed] vietnamese team not approved
[21:58] <MootBot> AGREED received:  vietnamese team not approved
[21:58] <CoconutCrab> okay, thank you all
[21:58] <afterlastangel> is this a new mechanism of voting?
[21:58] <huats> I would expect a better applications that put more highlight on the great work I am sure you are doing
[21:59] <popey> afterlastangel: no
[21:59] <cmpitg> It's just the matter of "showing", IMO
[21:59] <czajkowski> #endmeeting
[21:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:59.
[21:59] <czajkowski> thanks folks for coming
[21:59] <huats> We would like to come back at the next meeting
[21:59] <huats> with a new application
[21:59] <CoconutCrab> well, we haven't created a habit of reporting everything we do yet
[21:59] <cmpitg> May I have a question?
[22:00] <huats> cmpitg, sure
[22:00] <cmpitg> What did the meeting time change?
[22:00] <leogg> i got to run... sorry :( good evening all
[22:00] <cmpitg> It changed 2 minutes after the last fixed time?
[22:00] <popey> it was a mistake
[22:00] <popey> we had an inconsistency between the calendar and the wiki
[22:00] <popey> some of us go by the wiki, some by the calendar
[22:01] <cmpitg> That causes a lot of problems for us
[22:01] <popey> so some turned up at 20:00 UTC and others thought it was 21:00
[22:01] <popey> yeah, it should not have happened, sorry about that
[22:01] <czajkowski> this is the first meeting since dst and it was just unfortunate will be fixed for next month
[22:01] <cmpitg> Okay, I see
[22:02] <cmpitg> So if our team is not approved, would we have a chance to do it again?
[22:02] <itnet7> sorry... family issues
[22:02] <popey> Absolutely
[22:02] <cmpitg> Next month, right?
[22:03] <czajkowski> cmpitg: i'd give it a few monthws
[22:03] <czajkowski> months
[22:03] <popey> We generally recommend 3 months
[22:03] <cmpitg> I see
[22:03] <cmpitg> Thank you
[22:03] <cmpitg> Next time, we will definitely get it
[22:04] <popey> awesome!
[22:04] <popey> team reports would help
[22:04] <cmpitg> There is a sort of reorganizing our LocoTeam
[22:04] <popey> regular meetings..
[22:04] <popey> if you need any help, do get in contact with the loco council
[22:04] <cmpitg> So, everything is kind of a mess at the moment
[22:04] <cmpitg> popey: Thank you :-). I will
[22:06] <cmpitg> It's 5:05 AM our local time, probably night at your time.  Good night and see you later!
[22:06] <popey> really sorry about the time mess up!
[23:57] <j_baer> Hello :-)  I have a meetbot question.
[23:57] <persia> #ubuntu-bots might be a good place to ask it.
[23:58] <j_baer> Thanks ... I will switch.