=== starcraftman is now known as WikiNinja
=== WikiNinja is now known as starcraftman
=== AWAY|_Tux_ is now known as _Tux_
=== jjohansen1 is now known as jj-afk
=== Ayrton is now known as Ayrton`
=== Ayrton` is now known as Ayrton
=== ptkhanh|zzz is now known as ptkhanh
=== nijaba is now known as nijaba_afk
=== nijaba_afk is now known as nijaba
=== doko__ is now known as doko
=== oubiwann is now known as oubiwann-away
=== oubiwann-away is now known as oubiwann
=== zul is now known as ep
=== ep is now known as zul
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== azul_ is now known as jodh
robbiewazul_: is this your final irc nic?16:02
MootBotMeeting started at 10:03. The chair is robbiew.16:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:03
robbiew[TOPIC] Foundations Team Lightning Round16:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Foundations Team Lightning Round16:03
robbiewbarry is sick16:03
robbiewcjwatson: since I know you have an extremely interesting report...you can go first :P16:04
cjwatsondone: loads of merges, plymouth/upstart interop patches, working on new grub snapshot packaging (should help with flicker-free boot), figuring out what spec drafting I need to do16:04
cjwatsontodo: draft a small handful of specs, continue with new grub, polish off a few easy work items16:04
robbiewev: anything? (know you've been hangin with the sheiks16:05
cjwatsonARGH DAMN SOYUZ16:05
evvery short week; on holiday in Abu Dhabi (yay Vettel and Red Bull!).  Working on ubiquity-preserve-home in partman-auto.16:06
robbiewmvo: you can go next ;)16:07
mvoshort week: mon,tue vacation; friday afternoon sick :(16:07
mvoadded some workitems; work on rnr-server, work on s-c client review branch; upload new squid-deb-proxy; Support-timeframe LP branch (week 5?): finally had to setup a full LP dev environment :/ (that took a bit); unattended-upgrades: merge stuff; update-manager: bugfixes in i586 detection, upload SRU, work on better EOL presentation, enable maverick->natty16:07
mvotodo: check WI/spec, work on rnr-server16:07
robbiewpsurbhi: ?16:09
=== cypher_ is now known as czajkowski
psurbhiNov 11th onwards: short week, was unwell half of last week16:09
psurbhibtrfs - grub - testing - got a bug from a user, reproducing that.16:09
psurbhilooking at mountall code, understanding dbus.16:09
psurbhitodo - draft spec for event based initramfs, make a package of btrfs for grub and test more.16:09
cjwatsonoh yeah, plymouth/upstart interop involved sucking dbus into my head too16:10
robbiewthanx...glad you're feel better16:10
cjwatsonmy sympathies16:10
psurbhithanks :)16:10
psurbhimuch needed!16:10
robbiewazul_: ?16:10
mvopsurbhi: how is the license stuff with grub going?16:10
azul_robbiew: re nick - well, maybe. "jodh" isn't exactly gr8, but jhunt, etc taken and jamesodhunt too long :)16:10
azul_one sec...16:11
cjwatsonI liked "ifdef" :)16:11
psurbhimvo, i did not get a chance to talk to cmason, but spoke to Peter Anvin and he happens to think that the license should be resolved :)16:11
robbiewhow 'bout Keybuk216:11
dokojust for completeness: eglibc backports, second change in linking behaviour, spent most time with an internal project16:11
cjwatsonshould as in ought to be in the future, or should as in believes it is now?16:11
azul_weeks exec summary: lp:#674146 + pain16:11
mvoeither Keybuk++ or Keybuk-- depending on performance16:11
cjwatson(silly ambiguous language)16:11
azul_detail: Met up with Scott on Friday, which I found very useful.16:12
azul_Re lp:#674146 - Created a patch to disable optimizations for building16:12
azul_dpkg on armel for cjwatson (temporary fix). Hacking dpkg down to a basic16:12
azul_testcase is proving tricky (who _wrote_ that code? :). Will persist with16:12
azul_this. Currently isolating specific gcc-4.5 optimizer flag causing SEGV.16:12
azul_This is hampered by speed of kakadu (and doko compiling at same time :)16:12
azul_Wishing "configure" wouldn't attempt to parse CFLAGS (as it can't).16:12
azul_Plan to put lp:#674146 aside to concentrate on upstart for rest of week.16:12
cjwatsonyeah, as I said, no rush on that bug now I think16:12
evazul_: what about jhung? ;)16:12
azul_... once I've updated lp bug with details of currently running optimizer tests.16:12
azul_arf arf16:12
mvowe know who wrote the code!16:12
robbiewazul_: thanks!16:13
robbiewdoko: ?16:13
dokogahh, was wondering why kakadu was that slow ...16:13
azul_doko: soz - I've been compiling like mad on that box. I asked is about any other atmel kit, but apparently that is it :(16:14
dokook, stopped my build16:15
azul_doko: thx16:16
ScottKrobbiew should send you a http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika - They come with Karmic, but building in Natty chroots works well.16:17
robbiewor ScottK could send you one...since he got 2 for free! :P16:18
dokoI ordered one, didn't arrive yet16:18
ScottKrobbiew: Mine are all busy.16:18
robbiewdoko: btw, that's 100% expensible16:18
robbiewKeybuk: ?16:18
Keybukdone: met up with $(get-current-irc-nick-for jamesodhunt) in London on Friday, very productive and useful, we'll be doing more of these16:19
Keybukdone: planned tech talk, just got to arrange a time and date16:19
Keybukdone: still figuring out how to handle "profiles" in Upstart :(16:19
* doko orders to one with gold plating16:19
robbiew[TOPIC] Natty blueprints16:20
MootBotNew Topic:  Natty blueprints16:20
robbiewI'm out next week...so will plow through BPs this week16:21
robbiewonly a handful left that are unapproved16:21
robbiewso shouldn't be an issue16:21
azul_doko: what? only gold? latinum !! (Or better yet coated with printer ink? :)16:21
robbiew[TOPIC] Natty Release16:22
MootBotNew Topic:  Natty Release16:22
robbiewfirst release meeting is this week16:22
robbiewcjwatson: do we have a status page yet?  I haven't looked :/16:22
cjwatsonI haven't created one, so probably not16:22
cjwatsonwill have to assemble some kind of report, but I'll probably just use people's lightning-round updates for the last couple of weeks16:23
cjwatsonand cull something out of that16:23
cjwatsonnot too long before we have to start settling down a bit for alpha-1, though16:23
* skaet nods16:23
cjwatsonthe archive isn't that badly out of shape, though16:23
robbiew[TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue16:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Sponsorship Queue16:24
robbiewI haven't checked recently, but looked like folks have been signing up16:25
robbiewnothing else to add here16:25
MootBotNew Topic: AOB/GoodNews?16:25
robbiewapparently we are selling Ubuntu Cycling Kits in the store16:25
cjwatsonnot really anything to do with our team, but firefox 4 is ace16:26
KeybukI have my house keys back16:26
cjwatsonit's actually heard of performance16:26
ScottKCompetition is good for that kind of thing.16:26
evany thoughts on how it compares to Chrome?16:26
cjwatsonI can still use my extensions ...16:27
mvosame experience here, firefox4 is just great, I swtiched to it from chrome16:27
cjwatsonno subjective experience of chrome performance since its UI rubbed me up really badly the wrong way16:27
cjwatsonmozilla's benchmarks show slightly faster js execution than chrome, but that's the only thing I've seen16:27
mvothe awsome bar is awsome and noscript is great to get rid of most anoyances16:27
azul_re browsers, I'm loving http://www.uzbl.org/.16:28
evit's only a matter of time before we're all using RockMelt anyway. :-P16:29
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:30.16:30
robbiewthanks all!16:30
azul_ev: jhung is taken :(16:33
evhung is free :-P16:33
azul_I need someone else to misspell my name in amusing ways to inspire me!16:33
evaccording to nickserv both jhung and hung are not registered16:34
evthere you go16:34
Keybukev: RockMelt16:35
Keybukis that the next big thing, like Flock was?16:35
evoh yeah16:35
evit's the second coming of Flock16:36
evAll the success of the original, but with Chrome this time16:36
=== jdstrand is now known as jdstrand_
=== oubiwann is now known as oubiwann-away
=== oubiwann-away is now known as oubiwann
=== zul_ is now known as zul
HedgeMagehi, highvoltage :)18:58
dindahi folks18:58
highvoltagehi HedgeMage and dinda, good to see both of you here again18:59
highvoltagenot sure if everyone's here yet, but I'll kick off with the technical stuff so long18:59
* HedgeMage listens and eats lunch18:59
highvoltage* We have daily builds again, they're a bit rough at the edges, but it's early days so that's normal19:00
highvoltage * I responded to the artwork team regarding their request for specifications: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-November/003659.html19:01
highvoltagethey've shown interest on working on a new wallpaper and other artwork we might want19:01
highvoltagewe just need to ask for it19:01
highvoltageAlpha 2 is on 2011-12-0219:01
highvoltagewe're not shaping up too badly: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap19:02
highvoltage[i] indicates in progress19:02
highvoltagethere's something I'm forgetting that I wanted to mention yesterday, but it will come to me later :)19:03
highvoltageah yes, and there's also the Faenza icon set that I suggested last time-19:04
highvoltageXubuntu is going with it, Debian is, and a few other systems. it's not really unique anymore, so I guess we'll stick with plan A then and just fix up the breathe-icon-theme19:04
highvoltagedinda: any feedback from all your recent adventures?19:05
dindahihgvoltage; lots of interest for Ubuntu in Education but things move slowly19:06
ScottKhighvoltage: That's Alpha 1, not Alpha 2, FYI.19:06
dindaI did make some progress on the Edubuntu marketplace topic19:06
highvoltageoops, yes I meant alpha 119:06
highvoltagedinda: ah, I meant to talk to you about that, stgraber talked to claire at UDS19:07
dindaAFAIK it's fine if you want to create a marketplace but Legal is looking for a suitable agreement, similar to what is on the current Ubuntu marketplace19:07
dindanot sure how you planned on handling those companies who request to be listed there?19:07
highvoltagedinda: so the agreement is that service providers and ubuntu partners go on the canonical partner page19:07
highvoltagedinda: and we keep people who sell pre-installed systems with edubuntu on the edubuntu marketplace page19:08
dindacorrect, marketplace has no business relationship with Canonical, asked for legal to write up a disclaimer to that affect19:08
dindadid you plan on some approval process?  say through the edubuntu council?19:09
highvoltagenope, they can just contact our web team via the contact form and provide details that will be listed19:09
highvoltageI can't currently see a need for an approval process, but if there should be then I'd like to hear what you think19:10
dindanot sure but it seems like there should be some minimal requirement19:11
dindasome record of activity19:11
dindamaybe at least a website and contact person19:12
highvoltagethat sounds very reasonable19:12
=== xfaf is now known as zul
highvoltagedinda: I'll add that to the marketplace page when I update it again19:13
dindathe listing agreement that Canonical uses to list folks in the marketplace can be used19:14
dindaonce they sign, they can be listed19:14
dindaI can handle that part for now19:14
highvoltageis that new? I added a company there last year without signing anything19:14
dindaprobably, they have tons of new forms19:15
dindawill send you a copy and the edubuntu council when I have one19:15
highvoltagedinda: is the 'server in a box' part on the meeting page new or from a previous meeting? is there something left to discuss there or should I take it off?19:16
* mhall119 made it19:17
dindabeen talking to various parties about that project but nothing solid yet19:17
dindait can be taken off for edubuntu for the moment19:17
highvoltageand "Official support for educational-desktop software"? I can't remember seeing that before?19:18
dindaoh yes!  some good news there19:18
dindait's on the table now19:18
JanCWhat's a "school server in a box" supposed to do?19:19
dindaCanonical is willing to offer support for the educational-desktop software and help move items in Main19:19
highvoltagedinda: ok. personally I was quite happy when they moved out of main :)19:20
highvoltagebut we have package sets now so having them in main won't be problematic anymore19:20
mhall119yeah, but stuff moving out of main caused a translations issue on one game (can't remember which)19:20
mhall119but it affected Qimo troo19:20
dindathe issue for Canonical is that we (I) need to be able to go to large deployments and offer full support19:21
dindathat can't happen without that software being in Main19:21
highvoltagemhall119: yep, we'll just have to be careful with that19:21
dindaall it means is that it goes into our QA process and we offer technical support for paid customers19:22
dindaso either I can select just certain applications to move into Main. . .19:22
dindaor I can ask for the entire educational-desktop to be included?19:22
mhall119there's a lot of packages pulled in by edubuntu-desktop19:24
highvoltagedinda: what effect does the archive reorganisation have on Canonical support? I thought that the split between universe and main was becomming mostly cosmetic now?19:24
* mhall119 assumes that's what you meant19:24
highvoltagedinda: oops, and stgraber talked to jane, not claire :)19:24
dindanot exactly sure highvoltage19:24
dindabut I know we can't offer paid support on anything that is not in Main19:25
dindaand right now I can't go to schools and tell them any educational software is covered by our current support offerings19:25
stgraberdinda: universe/multiverse are going to disappear and the new infrastructure (planned for Natty) will let any company (with coredev) announce support to any package, be them in universe or in main19:26
mhall119so we need to see what packages in ubuntu-edu-* are not currently in main?19:26
stgraberdinda: so moving stuff in main just feels like additional pain (because we need MIRs for any additional dependencies). If Canonical wants to do them all, that's fine, but I'm not going to wait for a package to be in main to ship it or restrict package selection to what's in main19:27
stgrabermhall119: all of them19:27
highvoltagedinda: do you have any other details about this yet? I'm quite interested in who will be working on it19:27
stgrabermhall119: only the package that are also shipped on ubuntu-desktop are in main19:27
dindahighvoltage: that's fine it really doesn't affect what you want to do or what edubuntu needs. . .19:27
dindait's just something I'm trying to make happen so that Canonical can offer support. . .19:28
dindahighvoltage: no set plans yet, we would do the moving when needed19:28
JanCI think Canonical could make contracts listing specific packages outside of main to support anyway19:28
JanCmaybe you need a Canonical-internal list of packages you want to (or don't want to) support if requested, even if not in main?19:30
dindaJanC: think about an Ubuntu Advantage (UA) for Education, the current UA only covers the default install19:30
dindaso selling support to schools really gets them nothing b/c none of the educational software is covered19:31
JanCyeah, that might be useful, and if I understand stgraber correctly, the rigid supported/not supported distinction is going to be removed anyway19:32
dindaI'm asking to create a way for shcools to buy low cost support that covers what they will actually be using, not just generic support19:32
stgraberdinda: the issue with moving packages in main is that they won't be able to depend on packages that are in universe. That essentially means that if we want to keep our current flexibility, none of the meta packages will be moved.19:32
dindaright now any company except Canonical can cover whatever they want, it's just that Canonical can't19:33
JanClooking at the recent RHEL 6 release, they have RHEL Server & RHEL Desktop, plus several "plugins"19:33
stgraberdinda: and that if we want any of the package moved to main to dpeend on additional packages, we'll ask them to be demoted to universe19:33
JanCwhere the "plugins" offer support for specific use cases19:33
dindathe most likely scenario is that a very large deployment will ask to have certain apps pre-installed, in which Canonical has to support them19:34
dindaand that means those items will automatically get migrated to Main as part of the support & image QA process19:34
highvoltagedinda: no packages ever gets automatically migrated to main19:34
stgraberdinda: it really feels like we're re-discussing exactly what was discussed and agreed on at UDS. The new debtags-based support system is designed for exactly what you're describing and doesn't depend on packages being in main.19:35
mhall119dinda: what if there was just a list of "educational" packages that Canonical would provide support for separate from the typical support agreements?19:35
mhall119or, what stgraber said19:35
dindamhall119: that's what I asked earlier, maybe I should just ask for a select few apps to be included under an Ubuntu Advantage umbrella19:36
dindastgraber: but I'll review the UDS discussion and try to better understand how it relates19:37
mhall119stgraber: so who would put the debtags on the educational packages, edubuntu or canonical?19:38
mhall119or revolution linux?19:38
highvoltagecanonical would19:38
stgraberdinda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/ImprovedSupportDeclarations19:38
stgrabermhall119: any company who has coredev and wants to support packages would be able to tag the specific set of packages they want to support19:39
mhall119highvoltage: are these debtags only for paid support?19:39
stgrabermhall119: there'd be 3 class of support: sru, security and helpdesk19:39
stgrabermhall119: for each of them, there would be a period of validity (18 months would be the current one for ubuntu-desktop)19:39
highvoltagemhall119: I guess the short answer there is "no" :)19:39
mhall119so if I wanted to advertise certain packages as being supported by Qimo, how do I go about doing that?19:40
stgraberas it's based on tags, the new structure allows more than a company to offer support on a given package19:40
highvoltagemhall119: the implementation of it is not yet complete (as seen in that wiki page)19:40
mhall119which wiki page?19:41
highvoltagemhall119: but basically, you'd have to agree to do a certain amount of work and maintenance of those packages and be responsible for them19:41
highvoltagemhall119: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/ImprovedSupportDeclarations19:41
dindainteresting, it's a high priority but not yet been assigned to anyone19:42
dindatotally makes sense though19:42
highvoltagemhall119: in short, you'd be able to do something like an apt-cache show packagename, and then it would show you which company(ies) are supporting the package and for how long.19:42
mhall119that sounds nice19:44
dindathanks all for discussion on that topic, any suggestions most appreciated19:44
stgraberdinda: this implemention would mean, no additional paperwork (as in, main) for the edubuntu community (that's, until universe is merged into main) and lets Canonical, Revolution Linux, ... do clear support declaration so users know what is REALLY supported19:44
stgraber(as opposed to the general belief that all of main is supported by Canonical, which is wrong)19:45
mhall119that sounds like a lot to put into package headers though....19:45
highvoltageedubuntu-council renewal is up (as I sent out to the lists), I haven't heard back from nixternal yet, not sure if he's going to be available for another term19:45
stgrabermhall119: debtags are already used in debian for other purposes, so we know it works and it scales19:45
highvoltagemgariepy has been nominated though19:45
stgrabermhall119: we just need some LP (or other script) magic to automatically tag packages based on support declarations19:46
mhall119stgraber: scales how far?  What if 100 companies offer support for the same package?19:46
dindahighvoltage: saw that notice, when are you planning on holding the elections?19:46
mhall119stgraber: I guess having LP auto-generate them would make maintenance easier19:46
stgrabermhall119: the outcome of the UDS discussion was "Companies who have Ubuntu Core developers working for them" which currently means maybe 4-5 companies19:46
mhall119ok, so Qimo wouldn't be eligible19:47
highvoltagedinda: I mailed the CC list about it because we don't really have a large candidate pool, and sabdfl said he's fine with a re-approval since it's a tight core19:47
highvoltagemhall119: you can always become a core-dev ;)19:48
stgrabermhall119: even if there was hundreds of companies in this case, I doubt they'd all support the same packages. It seems more likely to have a larger amount of supported packages (with only 1-2 companies supporting them) then having the current amount but support by hundreds of companies19:48
dindahighvoltage: I was little confused on the requirement to be an edubuntu member as opposed to just an ubuntu member?19:48
mhall119I need a bit more packaging knowledge before I apply for core-dev19:48
dindahighvoltage: is that a different approval process?19:49
highvoltagemhall119: but I do think it would be kind of weird for a non-profit to do that, unless they have sponsored employees for that or something19:49
highvoltagedinda: yep19:49
stgraberdinda: for an Ubuntu member, it's just a matter of putting your name on the agenda and we'll vote at the next EC meeting. It's usually quite easy for an Ubuntu member to become Edubuntu member.19:49
* mhall119 's name is on the list19:50
dindaok, that's kind of what I thought19:50
* dinda supports mhall119's edubuntu membership :)19:51
stgraberdinda: currently you can become an Ubuntu member through regional boards, DMB or by becoming an Edubuntu or Kubuntu member. The first two just give you Ubuntu membership, the last two also give you Edubuntu or Kubuntu membership19:51
dindayip, that part I knew just wasn't sure the reverse was true; makes sense though19:52
dindahighvoltage: can you give a quick overview of the status of the edubuntu website? and I have a request19:53
highvoltagedinda: sure!19:53
highvoltageI'm replacing the identica widget with twidenash19:53
highvoltageit still has some css issues, I should actually poke mhall119 about it :)19:53
highvoltagedinda: since we last spoke, you probably noticed that it has a banner at the top now that explains what edubuntu is. you mentioned before that there's no explanation on the front page, that was the plan for it19:54
highvoltageit's still kind of work in progress, the banners just hasn't been extremely high priority so far19:54
highvoltagelast week we also added a contact form to the website19:55
dindaooh, that's nice, like the banner19:55
highvoltagedinda: and I guess you've also seen weblive by now? it was also added in the last month or so19:55
dindayeah, that is totally awesome!19:55
highvoltageI also added some more links and documentation to the documentaiton page19:56
highvoltagethat's about all that I can think of for the website at this stage19:56
stgraberwe're close to 6400 weblive users since we launched it19:56
highvoltageI'm working on a blog entry about ltsp fat clients that's turning out to be closer than documentation at this stage19:56
mhall119highvoltage: where's the contact form?19:56
highvoltageI'll probably blog it and then copy and paste it for our docs19:57
highvoltagemhall119: last button on the top19:57
highvoltagemhall119: oops, I just noticed it only displays for logged-in users *fail*19:57
dindayes, since it's taking a very long time to get some updates the ubuntu.com education webpages19:57
dindaso I might just ask to put the info on the edubuntu site - it's a page on How to run a successful ubuntu pilot in your school19:58
dindaor I could just do a wiki page but a web page looks so much nicer19:58
dindaI'll create the page and you can decide if it's appropriate for the edubuntu site19:59
dindaalso have some lessons plans almost ready so teachers can just pick up and use20:00
dindathat's about all from here - any questions20:01
mhall119dinda: what apps do your lesson plans utilize?20:02
dindai have a support request I want to ask you folks while I have you but will ask in #edubuntu after this meeting20:02
dindamhall119: right now just gcompris but want to expand to other apps20:02
dindamhall119: would be nice to have a few for each grade level as a hook for different teachers20:03
mhall119I'd like to see topical or application specific lesson plans20:03
mhall119but I have no idea how to make them20:03
dindamhall119: I'm aiming for topical and the software is just one tool they can use to teach the topic/objective20:04
JanCI think lesson plans often need to be adapted to local rules anyway20:04
dindaJanC: exactly , they have to be aligned with local curriculum standards20:04
dindaJanC: I'm starting with Texas b/c that's where I live and where I have teachers to help me20:05
highvoltagedinda: cool, we'd like to get some user stories (which are not case studies) on the website20:06
JanCso it should be more like a collection of possible lessons, exercises, etc. -- something teachers can adapt to their local rules20:07
dindahighvoltage: I think I can locate a few for you20:08
highvoltageJanC: *nod* that would be awesome++20:08
dindaJanC correct20:08
dindaJanc: can't possibly hit every national and local standard but want to select a few key countries20:09
dindaperhaps Ingots in the UK & India20:09
highvoltageIngots is also quite big in South Africa20:10
* JanC googles for "ingots"20:11
highvoltagemhall119: I'll poke you a bit later about that twidenash script :)20:12
JanCit's soem on-line course program?20:13
mhall119I may not be around, I have to run up to the hospital in a bit20:13
highvoltageok, I guess that's it for the meeting... *GONG*20:15
mhall119no quorum for a membership vote?20:16
highvoltagemhall119: I think we should try to get a specific meeting for that, I didn't get around to pinging the council members and telling them to be present today20:17
highvoltagemhall119: sorry about that20:17
highvoltagemhall119: I'll try to round them up and poke you tomorrow if that's ok20:17
JanCif the meeting is over: <JanC> What's a "school server in a box" supposed to do?20:17
highvoltageJanC: I think it was meant to be a general school infrastructure server. I'm not sure what was discussed at that UDS session, but I think it was deemed out of the schope of Edubuntu20:22
highvoltageprobably more appropriate for the server team.20:22
JanCI would think there is not much difference between a school server and a company server20:23
dindaJanC: come over to #edubuntu and I'll tell you about it20:23
JanCokay, I'm there  ;)20:23
highvoltageJanC: indeed. I guess if we were talking about server-side stuff like schooltool and moodle, then that might have been something else that we might have looked into then20:23
highvoltageyeah let's move over :)20:24
barry_hi folks, who's around for today's udd meeting?21:00
MootBotMeeting started at 15:00. The chair is barry_.21:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:00
barry_thumper, poolie, james_w ping21:02
james_wis it that time already?21:02
barry_ajmitch: ping21:02
barry_hi, yeah.  i know the usa (canada too?) went off dst so it comes even earlier for us now21:03
* slangasek waves21:03
barry_slangasek: hi21:03
* ajmitch is here21:03
barry_[TOPIC] agenda21:04
MootBotNew Topic:  agenda21:04
thumperbarry_: hi21:05
barry_thumper: hi21:05
barry_[TOPIC] action items21:05
MootBotNew Topic:  action items21:05
poolieno agenda? i added something...21:05
barry_   * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing)21:05
barry_ 21:05
barry_er, yes, sorry21:06
ajmitchI think the wiki formatting is a bit off21:06
barry_i've been a little ill so kind of unprepared ;)21:06
pooliesorry to hear that21:06
barry_fixing... thanks...21:06
barry_[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/2010111721:06
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/2010111721:06
barry_agenda: action items, udd survey results, bugs21:07
barry_   * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing)21:07
barry_ 21:07
barry_not done, but i'd like to keep it on the list21:07
barry_   * poolie to start list thread to find problems which can be carried on at UDS (ongoing)21:07
barry_ 21:07
barry_i didn't want to take this off without poolie's input21:07
barry_   * barry to contact poolie about getting his UDS session notes into the blueprint21:08
barry_ 21:08
poolieah, i don't think we had a new thread, but i did gather stuff from old ones21:08
pooliei sent a brief mail21:08
barry_poolie: i know you posted to ml, but i haven't read it yet21:08
pooliewith a link21:08
poolieshould we turn them into a blueprint? it's more a bunch of ideas and issues than an actual blueprint21:08
barry_poolie: thanks.  i think that covers both items21:08
poolieperhaps we should capture them on a wiki page in more detail than my mail21:08
pooliei'll take that on21:08
barry_poolie: thanks.  i do think we should have a blueprint that we can use to track work items21:09
barry_[ACTION] poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail21:09
MootBotACTION received:  poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail21:09
barry_poolie: which reminds me, will jelmer be joining us here after the 1st of the year?21:10
pooliefrom the 10th21:10
poolieoh, in this meeting in particular - i hope so21:10
pooliemm, but what time will that be? about 10pm?21:10
poolieif so, i hope he can21:11
barry_i have no problem moving the meeting earlier to accommodate, but i think that will affect you and thumper, right?21:11
poolieit's currently 8am for me; 7am wouldn't be a burden; 6 would be a slight burden21:11
thumperbarry_: I'm ok with an hour earlier (normally)21:11
poolielet's see how we go21:11
barry_okay, we can take that up when jelmer's on officially21:12
poolieso he'll be joining us from the start of the bzr sprint at the platform rally21:12
barry_excellent.  is that happening at the same time, or a week before/after?  or maybe that's the lp sprint i'm thinking about?21:13
barry_(sorry, my brain is not with me today)21:13
poolieoverlapping in time and space with the (canonical internal) platform rally,21:13
barry_that'll be great21:13
poolieand immediately prior to the lp epic, which we will also be attending21:13
pooliethe first week i plan for us to mostly work together as a small team, of course also talking to ubuntu people21:13
poolieand the second week i want us to do lots of work crossing the lp:bzr boundary21:14
poolieeg bzr people fixing things in lp and vice versa21:14
barry_nice.  i won't be able to attend the lp epic21:15
barry_[TOPIC] udd survey results21:15
MootBotNew Topic:  udd survey results21:15
barry_-> poolie21:16
poolieok, we got 82 great responses to our "how is udd for you"21:16
pooliemostly pretty positive: net promoter score (of people who responded) very widely distributed, but with ~60% of people voting 8, 9, or 1021:17
poolielots of textual answers21:17
poolieperhaps i'll just send a dump of raw answers to the list?21:17
pooliei don't think there's anything sensitive in there, but i'll check first21:17
poolieor edit that out if there is21:17
barry_probably best to anonymize the responses21:18
ajmitchthe answers which score low would be interesting to read21:18
barry_ajmitch: yep.  it would be nice to see which of those map to known bugs21:18
poolieso that's an action for me21:19
barry_[ACTION] poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist21:19
MootBotACTION received:  poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist21:19
barry_poolie: any themes that stand out?21:19
pooliegood qn21:20
pooliepeople generally find the bzr interface nice21:20
barry_(btw, that Bazaar/Plate page does not yet exist)21:20
pooliereliability, including getting up to date imports21:20
poolieerror messages caan be confusing21:20
poolielp ui clunky21:20
poolieit's another layer on top of a complicated stack21:21
pooliewhen things work, it's great21:21
pooliecontradictory messages (i guess varying experiences) on whether git imports are good or not21:21
pooliealso varying opinions on whether they're glad or frustrated we don't use git21:22
ScottKbarry_: I'll show you my clamav mess at bacon-pig if you want more use cases.21:22
poolieperhaps not surprisingly the people with bad experiences seem to use it the least21:22
poolieso, we need to look for the place to insert a wedge, where making things a bit better will make people use it more21:23
barry_ScottK: sounds great21:23
ScottKpoolie: I gave it a try, wrote a long mail to the UDD list about issues I found.  I don't have a sense that a lot has changed.  Not sure if that's accurate or not.21:23
poolieScottK: if it's the mail i'm thinking of, i think we got through nearly half since it was sent earlier this year21:24
* ScottK would be glad to try it again if significant progress has been made.21:24
pooliemaybe half by count not size21:24
ScottKpoolie: OK.  That's good to know.21:24
pooliethe others are definitely still on the list21:24
poolieone interesting thing to call out from udd, is that the general things for the bzr team are21:24
poolie- network speed, holistically (including mirroring, or shallow checkouts, etc)21:25
ScottKIt's difficult to know the state of the project as a casual observer and has it progressed enough to be worth trying again.21:25
pooliemaybe we should send a better summary of what's changed since eg the last ubuntu release?21:25
* ajmitch will need to sort out something about REVU & branches if I'm to be of use to this meeting 21:26
barry_poolie: +121:26
barry_ajmitch: yes, would you like to prepare something for 2 weeks time?21:27
ajmitchbarry_: OK, I'll try & come up with some questions/suggestions at least21:27
barry_ajmitch: great!21:28
barry_who wants to talk about bugs? :)21:28
barry_[TOPIC] bugs of interest / top bugs21:28
MootBotNew Topic:  bugs of interest / top bugs21:28
slangasekreliability is still a big problem right now; almost 2000 failures according to http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/21:28
barry_i'm a little afraid this list is getting pretty long ;)21:28
barry_slangasek: agreed.  we really need to address the import failures.  can't use udd if the branches aren't there21:29
MootBotLINK received:  http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/language-pack-gnome-lo-base.html21:29
james_wthat's a funny failure mode21:29
barry_696 packages failed with key AssertionError:<module>:main:import_package:import_package21:30
ajmitchdebian unstable is hardly getting any updates at the moment, due to squeeze freezing21:30
ajmitchoops, ECHAN21:30
poolieso package imports in particular, as a special focus? ok21:30
slangasekjames_w: I see gourmet has landed back in that failure state again in spite of your efforts :(21:30
ScottKajmitch: It actually fits.21:30
pooliewe're still having some trouble getting enough time to work on udd things outside of bzr itself21:30
poolieperhaps a big push on that specific thing will help us focus on it21:31
james_wslangasek, yeah, I'm still working on it, but it's having to fit in around other things unfortunately21:31
* slangasek nods21:31
barry_poolie: we have bug 653307 for a different failure case, i guess we should have separate bugs for each major class of import failures?21:31
ubottuLaunchpad bug 653307 in Ubuntu Distributed Development "Import fails with missing referenced chk root keys" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/65330721:31
james_wslangasek, I understand why we are getting the failure though now21:31
slangasekoh, good :)21:31
barry_we have 10 "bugs of interest".  do we want to go through each one?  maybe take a look at the wiki page and see if there has been any progress on any of them?21:34
pooliebarry_: 10? i see 3 on the agenda..21:34
poolie... unless i reload21:35
barry_refresh :)21:35
poolielet's go, quickly21:35
pooliea graph of packages is flacoste's favorite nomination21:35
poolie(and he sets my bonus :-)21:35
poolieon the grounds that you should put metrics in place early in the use of a feature21:35
pooliethis is mostly about inserting an X-SBC field to mark a package as having been built from a branch21:36
poolieprobably trivial to do; just needs figuring out what would be tasteful to put in it21:36
ajmitchhow much of the BFB infrastructure is in place for that so far?21:36
flacostei'd also like a graph of the package-imports and/or hottest100 results21:36
poolieaccording to jelmer there is infrastructure to scan it out there21:36
flacosteso that we assess the quality of our service21:36
pooliethere are graphs of them21:37
pooliepossibly there should be better graphs?21:37
poolieif we're going to do 10 bugs, and stay roughly within our hour, i'm going to go fairly fast21:37
barry_poolie: please do21:38
pooliehttp://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it21:38
MootBotLINK received:  http://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it21:38
* barry_ remembers a uds conversation about this during a walk to/from dinner21:38
jampoolie: I assume that is the point where ssh needs to renegotiate keys?21:39
pooliehttp://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms21:39
MootBotLINK received:  http://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms21:39
pooliejam: yes, apparently conch says "too hard, bye!"21:39
poolie> bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek)21:39
poolieneeds to be turned into a proper bug, with a number - can you do that steve?21:39
poolie(watch file support) - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n21:40
flacostepoolie: couldn't we use stacked branch for that?21:40
poolieflacoste: for what?21:40
slangasekpoolie: ack21:40
flacostepoolie: specifically, slangasek bug21:40
poolieit can be part of the solution21:40
* flacoste trying to push Tim's bug up the chain :-)21:40
pooliethis is the thing from uds i described as "network performance holistically"21:41
barry_on bug 295274; i need to get back to that branch21:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 295274 in bzr-builddeb "merge-upstream shouldn't require --version when debian/watch is present" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/29527421:41
pooliehttps://launchpad.net/bugs/653307 missing chk root keys21:41
jamflacoste: the issue raised at UDS is that no matter how little we download, a local mirror is still a lot faster21:41
jam(even if we get the download to be ~ the same size as the tarball)21:42
flacostejam: that's compared to apt-get source right21:42
slangasekright - to be productive I need a good way to have the source already be local21:42
jamthere was a discussion about being able to list the packages you are interested, and having a cron-ish script keep those up to date in a local mirror/shared repo21:42
pooliethere are a bunch of things we can usefully do - local mirrors, raw speed, etc21:42
poolielet's give it a number, then split it into bugs for each step21:42
pooliere the missing chk root keys21:43
pooliei know spiv was working on this21:43
pooliehe didn't mention it recently; i'm not sure why he stopped21:44
pooliejames_w: do you know?21:44
james_wno, I don't21:44
pooliei'll ping on the bug21:45
james_wI think the immediate cause was his bout of illness21:45
barry_[ACTION] slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror"21:45
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror"21:45
ScottKpoolie: Why does the distro packages file need to know if something was built from branch?21:45
pooliehttps://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395 commit in checkout doesn't propagate tags21:46
ScottK(or flacoste)21:46
pooliespiv is working on this and i think it should be done soon21:46
flacosteScottK: simply to allow us to track uptake of UDD across the distro21:46
poolieScottK: two things: firstly, to answer "how can i get the exact source for this"; secondly and a bit pragmatically, so we can trace how much of ubuntu is using this21:46
pooliewe should split it out from the 'want a graph' bug21:47
ScottKRight, but making the packages file larger makes apt-get update slower for every single user of Ubuntu.21:47
ScottKSurely there are less invasive ways to track this.21:47
poolieperhaps it should not propagate to the binary? or perhaps there's a better way?21:47
james_wthere probably is21:47
pooliei'd love suggestions21:47
poolieand that's what i meant by making sure it was tasteful21:47
james_wX-C should be enough, but that might require some special-casing in LP unfortunately21:48
ScottKI think that's better than adding more noise to the Packages files.21:48
james_wwe need to decide what data we want, and then we can come up with a way to allow us to capture it21:48
james_wif only there was a forum in which we could discuss what data to capture to ensure we were tracking what we wanted21:49
pooliethere's a bug, let's capture the constraints/ideas there21:49
pooliehttps://launchpad.net/bugs/653832 "trying to import version ... again"21:49
poolienew to me21:50
james_wthat's one that I'm looking at currently21:50
james_wI know the immediate cause, but I'm a bit worried about what will happen when I unclog the pipe :-)21:50
pooliecool, thanks21:50
pooliethere's a related thing that's on my plate, which is migrating the package importer onto "proper" is-managed service21:51
pooliecurrently in a holding pattern waiting for losa timeslices21:51
pooliehttps://launchpad.net/bugs/499684 "Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented" is also new to me21:51
barry_i think that's ScottK's complaint about -- (one i share :)21:52
poolieit seems like a good bug report21:53
ajmitchit is a bit obscure when explaining how to use the tools to newcomers21:53
barry_on my changelog "bug" - i haven't hit it again yet, so i'm still waiting for a specific example before i file a bug21:53
pooliei don't think it should preempt others already in train?21:53
barry_i should probably remove it from top bugs since it isn't one yet21:53
barry_i think that's it for bugs, unless anybody has any other comments?21:54
barry_[TOPIC] * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot21:55
MootBotNew Topic:  * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot21:55
poolieplease file a bug for the changelog/merge thing when you can describe it21:55
poolienothing else from me21:55
barry_poolie: yep, definitely21:55
barry_so next week we start the new regime for sponsoring.  i'm up on monday and i plan to heavily encourage branches and merge proposals.  i'd like to give preferential treatment to reviews in mps.  (note though i can only review anyway)21:56
ajmitchthis'll be a good way to get feedback about sponsoring workflow21:57
barry_yep, i'll keep copious notes :)21:57
pooliethat's a great idea21:58
barry_i'll post my thoughts to the udd mlist afterward21:58
barry_i just wanted to mention this; i don't have much else21:59
barry_unless anybody has suggestions, or things to emphasize, etc... ?21:59
barry_[TOPIC] AOB22:00
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB22:00
barry_anything else not on the agenda?22:00
pooliesorry one more22:00
pooliei'd like to look for someone to do a rotation onto the bzr team, ideally from platform22:00
poolieto free up some time for them to work on this22:00
poolieif anyone here is interested in working on something different, that's great22:01
poolieotherwise, think of someone else you might know who it would suit22:01
barry_poolie: maybe a solicitation on the platform mlist?  (i don't think i can take it on until the py27 transition is done)22:01
pooliemaybe someone who's been working on the same group for a few years and could do with a refresher22:01
pooliesure, i just thought  about it in the shower this morning22:02
pooliei will get the idea out there22:02
james_wgood idea22:02
barry_[ACTION] poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list22:02
MootBotACTION received:  poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list22:02
pooliei'd like to also approach likely candidates individually, if we can get a shortlist22:02
barry_cool, thanks.  any other business?22:04
pooliei'll just mention https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bazaar/Plate22:04
poolie(private only, sorry)22:04
poolieas a view of what we're up to22:04
poolienothing else from me22:05
james_wI have a merge proposal for barry_, but I think that's a bit to "Other Business"22:05
james_wpoolie, ubuntu.com or canonical.com?22:05
pooliesorry, canonical22:06
barry_poolie: thanks22:07
barry_okay, folks.  thanks again for another great meeting.  see you in two weeks22:07
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:07.22:07
james_wthanks all22:08
pooliethanks! :)22:08
ScottKbarry_: That's definitely on my list.22:20

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!