[16:01] <robbiew> o/
[16:01] <psurbhi> o/
[16:02] <ev> hi
[16:02] <azul_> lo
[16:02] <cjwatson> hey
[16:02] <robbiew> azul_: is this your final irc nic?
[16:02] <robbiew> lol
[16:03] <mvo> hello
[16:03] <robbiew> #startmeeting
[16:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:03. The chair is robbiew.
[16:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:03] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Foundations Team Lightning Round
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team Lightning Round
[16:03] <robbiew> barry is sick
[16:04] <robbiew> cjwatson: since I know you have an extremely interesting report...you can go first :P
[16:04] <cjwatson> hah
[16:04] <cjwatson> done: loads of merges, plymouth/upstart interop patches, working on new grub snapshot packaging (should help with flicker-free boot), figuring out what spec drafting I need to do
[16:04] <cjwatson> todo: draft a small handful of specs, continue with new grub, polish off a few easy work items
[16:04] <cjwatson> --
[16:05] <robbiew> thnx
[16:05] <robbiew> ev: anything? (know you've been hangin with the sheiks
[16:05] <robbiew> lol
[16:05] <cjwatson> ARGH DAMN SOYUZ
[16:05] <cjwatson> (sorry)
[16:06] <robbiew> turret's
[16:06] <ev> very short week; on holiday in Abu Dhabi (yay Vettel and Red Bull!).  Working on ubiquity-preserve-home in partman-auto.
[16:06] <ev> done
[16:06] <mvo> ubiquity-perserve-home++
[16:07] <robbiew> mvo: you can go next ;)
[16:07] <mvo> short week: mon,tue vacation; friday afternoon sick :(
[16:07] <mvo> added some workitems; work on rnr-server, work on s-c client review branch; upload new squid-deb-proxy; Support-timeframe LP branch (week 5?): finally had to setup a full LP dev environment :/ (that took a bit); unattended-upgrades: merge stuff; update-manager: bugfixes in i586 detection, upload SRU, work on better EOL presentation, enable maverick->natty
[16:07] <mvo> todo: check WI/spec, work on rnr-server
[16:07] <mvo> (done)
[16:09] <robbiew> thnx
[16:09] <robbiew> psurbhi: ?
[16:09] <psurbhi> Nov 11th onwards: short week, was unwell half of last week
[16:09] <psurbhi> btrfs - grub - testing - got a bug from a user, reproducing that.
[16:09] <psurbhi> looking at mountall code, understanding dbus.
[16:09] <psurbhi> todo - draft spec for event based initramfs, make a package of btrfs for grub and test more.
[16:09] <psurbhi> (done)
[16:10] <cjwatson> oh yeah, plymouth/upstart interop involved sucking dbus into my head too
[16:10] <robbiew> thanx...glad you're feel better
[16:10] <cjwatson> my sympathies
[16:10] <robbiew> heh
[16:10] <psurbhi> thanks :)
[16:10] <psurbhi> much needed!
[16:10] <robbiew> azul_: ?
[16:10] <mvo> psurbhi: how is the license stuff with grub going?
[16:10] <azul_> robbiew: re nick - well, maybe. "jodh" isn't exactly gr8, but jhunt, etc taken and jamesodhunt too long :)
[16:11] <azul_> one sec...
[16:11] <cjwatson> I liked "ifdef" :)
[16:11] <psurbhi> mvo, i did not get a chance to talk to cmason, but spoke to Peter Anvin and he happens to think that the license should be resolved :)
[16:11] <robbiew> how 'bout Keybuk2
[16:11] <robbiew> lol
[16:11] <doko> just for completeness: eglibc backports, second change in linking behaviour, spent most time with an internal project
[16:11] <cjwatson> should as in ought to be in the future, or should as in believes it is now?
[16:11] <azul_> hmm.
[16:11] <azul_> weeks exec summary: lp:#674146 + pain
[16:11] <azul_> :)
[16:11] <mvo> either Keybuk++ or Keybuk-- depending on performance
[16:11] <cjwatson> (silly ambiguous language)
[16:12] <azul_> detail: Met up with Scott on Friday, which I found very useful.
[16:12] <azul_> Re lp:#674146 - Created a patch to disable optimizations for building
[16:12] <azul_> dpkg on armel for cjwatson (temporary fix). Hacking dpkg down to a basic
[16:12] <azul_> testcase is proving tricky (who _wrote_ that code? :). Will persist with
[16:12] <azul_> this. Currently isolating specific gcc-4.5 optimizer flag causing SEGV.
[16:12] <azul_> This is hampered by speed of kakadu (and doko compiling at same time :)
[16:12] <azul_> Wishing "configure" wouldn't attempt to parse CFLAGS (as it can't).
[16:12] <azul_> Plan to put lp:#674146 aside to concentrate on upstart for rest of week.
[16:12] <cjwatson> yeah, as I said, no rush on that bug now I think
[16:12] <ev> azul_: what about jhung? ;)
[16:12] <azul_> ... once I've updated lp bug with details of currently running optimizer tests.
[16:12] <azul_> arf arf
[16:12] <mvo> we know who wrote the code!
[16:13] <robbiew> jhung...lol
[16:13] <robbiew> azul_: thanks!
[16:13] <robbiew> doko: ?
[16:13] <doko> gahh, was wondering why kakadu was that slow ...
[16:14] <azul_> doko: soz - I've been compiling like mad on that box. I asked is about any other atmel kit, but apparently that is it :(
[16:15] <doko> ok, stopped my build
[16:16] <azul_> doko: thx
[16:17] <ScottK> robbiew should send you a http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika - They come with Karmic, but building in Natty chroots works well.
[16:18] <robbiew> or ScottK could send you one...since he got 2 for free! :P
[16:18] <azul_> !!
[16:18] <doko> I ordered one, didn't arrive yet
[16:18] <ScottK> robbiew: Mine are all busy.
[16:18] <robbiew> doko: btw, that's 100% expensible
[16:18] <robbiew> Keybuk: ?
[16:19] <Keybuk> done: met up with $(get-current-irc-nick-for jamesodhunt) in London on Friday, very productive and useful, we'll be doing more of these
[16:19] <Keybuk> done: planned tech talk, just got to arrange a time and date
[16:19] <Keybuk> done: still figuring out how to handle "profiles" in Upstart :(
[16:19]  * doko orders to one with gold plating
[16:20] <robbiew> lol
[16:20] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty blueprints
[16:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty blueprints
[16:21] <robbiew> I'm out next week...so will plow through BPs this week
[16:21] <robbiew> only a handful left that are unapproved
[16:21] <robbiew> so shouldn't be an issue
[16:21] <azul_> doko: what? only gold? latinum !! (Or better yet coated with printer ink? :)
[16:22] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty Release
[16:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Natty Release
[16:22] <robbiew> first release meeting is this week
[16:22] <robbiew> cjwatson: do we have a status page yet?  I haven't looked :/
[16:22] <cjwatson> I haven't created one, so probably not
[16:23] <cjwatson> will have to assemble some kind of report, but I'll probably just use people's lightning-round updates for the last couple of weeks
[16:23] <cjwatson> and cull something out of that
[16:23] <cjwatson> not too long before we have to start settling down a bit for alpha-1, though
[16:23]  * skaet nods
[16:23] <cjwatson> the archive isn't that badly out of shape, though
[16:24] <robbiew> cool
[16:24] <robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship Queue
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship Queue
[16:25] <robbiew> I haven't checked recently, but looked like folks have been signing up
[16:25] <robbiew> nothing else to add here
[16:25] <robbiew> [TOPIC]AOB/GoodNews?
[16:25] <MootBot> New Topic: AOB/GoodNews?
[16:25] <robbiew> apparently we are selling Ubuntu Cycling Kits in the store
[16:25] <robbiew> wtf?
[16:26] <cjwatson> not really anything to do with our team, but firefox 4 is ace
[16:26] <Keybuk> I have my house keys back
[16:26] <cjwatson> it's actually heard of performance
[16:26] <ScottK> Competition is good for that kind of thing.
[16:26] <ev> any thoughts on how it compares to Chrome?
[16:27] <cjwatson> I can still use my extensions ...
[16:27] <mvo> same experience here, firefox4 is just great, I swtiched to it from chrome
[16:27] <cjwatson> no subjective experience of chrome performance since its UI rubbed me up really badly the wrong way
[16:27] <cjwatson> mozilla's benchmarks show slightly faster js execution than chrome, but that's the only thing I've seen
[16:27] <mvo> the awsome bar is awsome and noscript is great to get rid of most anoyances
[16:28] <azul_> re browsers, I'm loving http://www.uzbl.org/.
[16:29] <ev> it's only a matter of time before we're all using RockMelt anyway. :-P
[16:30] <robbiew> heh
[16:30] <robbiew> #endmeeting
[16:30] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:30.
[16:30] <robbiew> thanks all!
[16:30] <ev> seeya
[16:30] <mvo> thanks
[16:33] <azul_> ev: jhung is taken :(
[16:33] <ev> hung is free :-P
[16:33] <azul_> I need someone else to misspell my name in amusing ways to inspire me!
[16:34] <azul_> hungon!
[16:34] <ev> according to nickserv both jhung and hung are not registered
[16:34] <ev> hahaha
[16:34] <ev> there you go
[16:35] <Keybuk> ev: RockMelt
[16:35] <Keybuk> is that the next big thing, like Flock was?
[16:35] <ev> oh yeah
[16:36] <ev> it's the second coming of Flock
[16:36] <ev> All the success of the original, but with Chrome this time
[18:58] <highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
[18:58] <HedgeMage> hi, highvoltage :)
[18:58] <dinda> hi folks
[18:59] <highvoltage> hi HedgeMage and dinda, good to see both of you here again
[18:59] <highvoltage> not sure if everyone's here yet, but I'll kick off with the technical stuff so long
[18:59]  * HedgeMage listens and eats lunch
[19:00] <highvoltage> * We have daily builds again, they're a bit rough at the edges, but it's early days so that's normal
[19:01] <highvoltage>  * I responded to the artwork team regarding their request for specifications: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2010-November/003659.html
[19:01] <highvoltage> they've shown interest on working on a new wallpaper and other artwork we might want
[19:01] <highvoltage> we just need to ask for it
[19:01] <highvoltage> Alpha 2 is on 2011-12-02
[19:02] <highvoltage> we're not shaping up too badly: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Devel/RoadMap
[19:02] <highvoltage> [i] indicates in progress
[19:03] <highvoltage> there's something I'm forgetting that I wanted to mention yesterday, but it will come to me later :)
[19:04] <highvoltage> ah yes, and there's also the Faenza icon set that I suggested last time-
[19:04] <highvoltage> Xubuntu is going with it, Debian is, and a few other systems. it's not really unique anymore, so I guess we'll stick with plan A then and just fix up the breathe-icon-theme
[19:05] <highvoltage> dinda: any feedback from all your recent adventures?
[19:06] <dinda> hihgvoltage; lots of interest for Ubuntu in Education but things move slowly
[19:06] <ScottK> highvoltage: That's Alpha 1, not Alpha 2, FYI.
[19:06] <dinda> I did make some progress on the Edubuntu marketplace topic
[19:06] <highvoltage> oops, yes I meant alpha 1
[19:07] <highvoltage> dinda: ah, I meant to talk to you about that, stgraber talked to claire at UDS
[19:07] <dinda> AFAIK it's fine if you want to create a marketplace but Legal is looking for a suitable agreement, similar to what is on the current Ubuntu marketplace
[19:07] <dinda> not sure how you planned on handling those companies who request to be listed there?
[19:07] <highvoltage> dinda: so the agreement is that service providers and ubuntu partners go on the canonical partner page
[19:08] <highvoltage> dinda: and we keep people who sell pre-installed systems with edubuntu on the edubuntu marketplace page
[19:08] <dinda> correct, marketplace has no business relationship with Canonical, asked for legal to write up a disclaimer to that affect
[19:09] <dinda> did you plan on some approval process?  say through the edubuntu council?
[19:09] <highvoltage> nope, they can just contact our web team via the contact form and provide details that will be listed
[19:10] <highvoltage> I can't currently see a need for an approval process, but if there should be then I'd like to hear what you think
[19:11] <dinda> not sure but it seems like there should be some minimal requirement
[19:11] <dinda> some record of activity
[19:12] <dinda> maybe at least a website and contact person
[19:12] <highvoltage> that sounds very reasonable
[19:13] <highvoltage> dinda: I'll add that to the marketplace page when I update it again
[19:14] <dinda> the listing agreement that Canonical uses to list folks in the marketplace can be used
[19:14] <dinda> once they sign, they can be listed
[19:14] <dinda> I can handle that part for now
[19:14] <highvoltage> is that new? I added a company there last year without signing anything
[19:15] <dinda> probably, they have tons of new forms
[19:15] <highvoltage> ok
[19:15] <dinda> will send you a copy and the edubuntu council when I have one
[19:16] <highvoltage> dinda: is the 'server in a box' part on the meeting page new or from a previous meeting? is there something left to discuss there or should I take it off?
[19:17]  * mhall119 made it
[19:17] <dinda> been talking to various parties about that project but nothing solid yet
[19:17] <dinda> it can be taken off for edubuntu for the moment
[19:18] <highvoltage> and "Official support for educational-desktop software"? I can't remember seeing that before?
[19:18] <dinda> oh yes!  some good news there
[19:18] <dinda> it's on the table now
[19:19] <JanC> What's a "school server in a box" supposed to do?
[19:19] <dinda> Canonical is willing to offer support for the educational-desktop software and help move items in Main
[19:20] <highvoltage> dinda: ok. personally I was quite happy when they moved out of main :)
[19:20] <highvoltage> but we have package sets now so having them in main won't be problematic anymore
[19:20] <mhall119> yeah, but stuff moving out of main caused a translations issue on one game (can't remember which)
[19:20] <mhall119> but it affected Qimo troo
[19:20] <mhall119> too
[19:21] <dinda> the issue for Canonical is that we (I) need to be able to go to large deployments and offer full support
[19:21] <dinda> that can't happen without that software being in Main
[19:21] <highvoltage> mhall119: yep, we'll just have to be careful with that
[19:22] <dinda> all it means is that it goes into our QA process and we offer technical support for paid customers
[19:22] <dinda> so either I can select just certain applications to move into Main. . .
[19:22] <dinda> or I can ask for the entire educational-desktop to be included?
[19:24] <mhall119> there's a lot of packages pulled in by edubuntu-desktop
[19:24] <highvoltage> dinda: what effect does the archive reorganisation have on Canonical support? I thought that the split between universe and main was becomming mostly cosmetic now?
[19:24]  * mhall119 assumes that's what you meant
[19:24] <highvoltage> dinda: oops, and stgraber talked to jane, not claire :)
[19:24] <dinda> not exactly sure highvoltage
[19:25] <dinda> but I know we can't offer paid support on anything that is not in Main
[19:25] <highvoltage> ok
[19:25] <dinda> and right now I can't go to schools and tell them any educational software is covered by our current support offerings
[19:26] <stgraber> dinda: universe/multiverse are going to disappear and the new infrastructure (planned for Natty) will let any company (with coredev) announce support to any package, be them in universe or in main
[19:26] <mhall119> so we need to see what packages in ubuntu-edu-* are not currently in main?
[19:27] <stgraber> dinda: so moving stuff in main just feels like additional pain (because we need MIRs for any additional dependencies). If Canonical wants to do them all, that's fine, but I'm not going to wait for a package to be in main to ship it or restrict package selection to what's in main
[19:27] <stgraber> mhall119: all of them
[19:27] <highvoltage> dinda: do you have any other details about this yet? I'm quite interested in who will be working on it
[19:27] <stgraber> mhall119: only the package that are also shipped on ubuntu-desktop are in main
[19:27] <dinda> highvoltage: that's fine it really doesn't affect what you want to do or what edubuntu needs. . .
[19:27] <mhall119> ok
[19:28] <dinda> it's just something I'm trying to make happen so that Canonical can offer support. . .
[19:28] <dinda> highvoltage: no set plans yet, we would do the moving when needed
[19:28] <JanC> I think Canonical could make contracts listing specific packages outside of main to support anyway
[19:30] <JanC> maybe you need a Canonical-internal list of packages you want to (or don't want to) support if requested, even if not in main?
[19:30] <dinda> JanC: think about an Ubuntu Advantage (UA) for Education, the current UA only covers the default install
[19:31] <dinda> so selling support to schools really gets them nothing b/c none of the educational software is covered
[19:32] <JanC> yeah, that might be useful, and if I understand stgraber correctly, the rigid supported/not supported distinction is going to be removed anyway
[19:32] <dinda> I'm asking to create a way for shcools to buy low cost support that covers what they will actually be using, not just generic support
[19:32] <stgraber> dinda: the issue with moving packages in main is that they won't be able to depend on packages that are in universe. That essentially means that if we want to keep our current flexibility, none of the meta packages will be moved.
[19:33] <dinda> right now any company except Canonical can cover whatever they want, it's just that Canonical can't
[19:33] <JanC> looking at the recent RHEL 6 release, they have RHEL Server & RHEL Desktop, plus several "plugins"
[19:33] <stgraber> dinda: and that if we want any of the package moved to main to dpeend on additional packages, we'll ask them to be demoted to universe
[19:33] <JanC> where the "plugins" offer support for specific use cases
[19:34] <dinda> the most likely scenario is that a very large deployment will ask to have certain apps pre-installed, in which Canonical has to support them
[19:34] <dinda> and that means those items will automatically get migrated to Main as part of the support & image QA process
[19:34] <highvoltage> dinda: no packages ever gets automatically migrated to main
[19:35] <stgraber> dinda: it really feels like we're re-discussing exactly what was discussed and agreed on at UDS. The new debtags-based support system is designed for exactly what you're describing and doesn't depend on packages being in main.
[19:35] <mhall119> dinda: what if there was just a list of "educational" packages that Canonical would provide support for separate from the typical support agreements?
[19:35] <mhall119> or, what stgraber said
[19:36] <dinda> mhall119: that's what I asked earlier, maybe I should just ask for a select few apps to be included under an Ubuntu Advantage umbrella
[19:37] <dinda> stgraber: but I'll review the UDS discussion and try to better understand how it relates
[19:38] <mhall119> stgraber: so who would put the debtags on the educational packages, edubuntu or canonical?
[19:38] <mhall119> or revolution linux?
[19:38] <highvoltage> canonical would
[19:38] <stgraber> dinda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/ImprovedSupportDeclarations
[19:38] <dinda> thanks
[19:39] <stgraber> mhall119: any company who has coredev and wants to support packages would be able to tag the specific set of packages they want to support
[19:39] <mhall119> highvoltage: are these debtags only for paid support?
[19:39] <stgraber> mhall119: there'd be 3 class of support: sru, security and helpdesk
[19:39] <stgraber> mhall119: for each of them, there would be a period of validity (18 months would be the current one for ubuntu-desktop)
[19:39] <highvoltage> mhall119: I guess the short answer there is "no" :)
[19:39] <mhall119> ok
[19:40] <mhall119> so if I wanted to advertise certain packages as being supported by Qimo, how do I go about doing that?
[19:40] <stgraber> as it's based on tags, the new structure allows more than a company to offer support on a given package
[19:40] <highvoltage> mhall119: the implementation of it is not yet complete (as seen in that wiki page)
[19:41] <mhall119> which wiki page?
[19:41] <highvoltage> mhall119: but basically, you'd have to agree to do a certain amount of work and maintenance of those packages and be responsible for them
[19:41] <highvoltage> mhall119: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/ImprovedSupportDeclarations
[19:41] <mhall119> thanks
[19:42] <dinda> interesting, it's a high priority but not yet been assigned to anyone
[19:42] <dinda> totally makes sense though
[19:42] <highvoltage> mhall119: in short, you'd be able to do something like an apt-cache show packagename, and then it would show you which company(ies) are supporting the package and for how long.
[19:44] <mhall119> that sounds nice
[19:44] <dinda> thanks all for discussion on that topic, any suggestions most appreciated
[19:44] <stgraber> dinda: this implemention would mean, no additional paperwork (as in, main) for the edubuntu community (that's, until universe is merged into main) and lets Canonical, Revolution Linux, ... do clear support declaration so users know what is REALLY supported
[19:45] <stgraber> (as opposed to the general belief that all of main is supported by Canonical, which is wrong)
[19:45] <mhall119> that sounds like a lot to put into package headers though....
[19:45] <highvoltage> edubuntu-council renewal is up (as I sent out to the lists), I haven't heard back from nixternal yet, not sure if he's going to be available for another term
[19:45] <stgraber> mhall119: debtags are already used in debian for other purposes, so we know it works and it scales
[19:45] <highvoltage> mgariepy has been nominated though
[19:46] <stgraber> mhall119: we just need some LP (or other script) magic to automatically tag packages based on support declarations
[19:46] <mhall119> stgraber: scales how far?  What if 100 companies offer support for the same package?
[19:46] <dinda> highvoltage: saw that notice, when are you planning on holding the elections?
[19:46] <mhall119> stgraber: I guess having LP auto-generate them would make maintenance easier
[19:46] <stgraber> mhall119: the outcome of the UDS discussion was "Companies who have Ubuntu Core developers working for them" which currently means maybe 4-5 companies
[19:47] <mhall119> ok, so Qimo wouldn't be eligible
[19:47] <highvoltage> dinda: I mailed the CC list about it because we don't really have a large candidate pool, and sabdfl said he's fine with a re-approval since it's a tight core
[19:48] <highvoltage> mhall119: you can always become a core-dev ;)
[19:48] <stgraber> mhall119: even if there was hundreds of companies in this case, I doubt they'd all support the same packages. It seems more likely to have a larger amount of supported packages (with only 1-2 companies supporting them) then having the current amount but support by hundreds of companies
[19:48] <dinda> highvoltage: I was little confused on the requirement to be an edubuntu member as opposed to just an ubuntu member?
[19:48] <mhall119> I need a bit more packaging knowledge before I apply for core-dev
[19:49] <dinda> highvoltage: is that a different approval process?
[19:49] <highvoltage> mhall119: but I do think it would be kind of weird for a non-profit to do that, unless they have sponsored employees for that or something
[19:49] <highvoltage> dinda: yep
[19:49] <stgraber> dinda: for an Ubuntu member, it's just a matter of putting your name on the agenda and we'll vote at the next EC meeting. It's usually quite easy for an Ubuntu member to become Edubuntu member.
[19:50]  * mhall119 's name is on the list
[19:50] <dinda> ok, that's kind of what I thought
[19:51]  * dinda supports mhall119's edubuntu membership :)
[19:51] <stgraber> dinda: currently you can become an Ubuntu member through regional boards, DMB or by becoming an Edubuntu or Kubuntu member. The first two just give you Ubuntu membership, the last two also give you Edubuntu or Kubuntu membership
[19:52] <dinda> yip, that part I knew just wasn't sure the reverse was true; makes sense though
[19:53] <dinda> highvoltage: can you give a quick overview of the status of the edubuntu website? and I have a request
[19:53] <highvoltage> dinda: sure!
[19:53] <highvoltage> I'm replacing the identica widget with twidenash
[19:53] <highvoltage> it still has some css issues, I should actually poke mhall119 about it :)
[19:54] <mhall119> sure
[19:54] <highvoltage> dinda: since we last spoke, you probably noticed that it has a banner at the top now that explains what edubuntu is. you mentioned before that there's no explanation on the front page, that was the plan for it
[19:54] <highvoltage> it's still kind of work in progress, the banners just hasn't been extremely high priority so far
[19:55] <highvoltage> last week we also added a contact form to the website
[19:55] <dinda> ooh, that's nice, like the banner
[19:55] <highvoltage> dinda: and I guess you've also seen weblive by now? it was also added in the last month or so
[19:55] <dinda> yeah, that is totally awesome!
[19:56] <highvoltage> I also added some more links and documentation to the documentaiton page
[19:56] <highvoltage> that's about all that I can think of for the website at this stage
[19:56] <stgraber> we're close to 6400 weblive users since we launched it
[19:56] <highvoltage> I'm working on a blog entry about ltsp fat clients that's turning out to be closer than documentation at this stage
[19:56] <mhall119> highvoltage: where's the contact form?
[19:57] <highvoltage> I'll probably blog it and then copy and paste it for our docs
[19:57] <highvoltage> mhall119: last button on the top
[19:57] <mhall119> Documentation?
[19:57] <highvoltage> mhall119: oops, I just noticed it only displays for logged-in users *fail*
[19:57] <mhall119> :)
[19:57] <dinda> yes, since it's taking a very long time to get some updates the ubuntu.com education webpages
[19:58] <dinda> so I might just ask to put the info on the edubuntu site - it's a page on How to run a successful ubuntu pilot in your school
[19:58] <dinda> or I could just do a wiki page but a web page looks so much nicer
[19:59] <dinda> I'll create the page and you can decide if it's appropriate for the edubuntu site
[20:00] <dinda> also have some lessons plans almost ready so teachers can just pick up and use
[20:01] <dinda> that's about all from here - any questions
[20:02] <mhall119> dinda: what apps do your lesson plans utilize?
[20:02] <dinda> i have a support request I want to ask you folks while I have you but will ask in #edubuntu after this meeting
[20:02] <dinda> mhall119: right now just gcompris but want to expand to other apps
[20:03] <dinda> mhall119: would be nice to have a few for each grade level as a hook for different teachers
[20:03] <mhall119> I'd like to see topical or application specific lesson plans
[20:03] <mhall119> but I have no idea how to make them
[20:04] <dinda> mhall119: I'm aiming for topical and the software is just one tool they can use to teach the topic/objective
[20:04] <JanC> I think lesson plans often need to be adapted to local rules anyway
[20:04] <dinda> JanC: exactly , they have to be aligned with local curriculum standards
[20:05] <dinda> JanC: I'm starting with Texas b/c that's where I live and where I have teachers to help me
[20:06] <highvoltage> dinda: cool, we'd like to get some user stories (which are not case studies) on the website
[20:07] <JanC> so it should be more like a collection of possible lessons, exercises, etc. -- something teachers can adapt to their local rules
[20:08] <dinda> highvoltage: I think I can locate a few for you
[20:08] <highvoltage> JanC: *nod* that would be awesome++
[20:08] <dinda> JanC correct
[20:09] <dinda> Janc: can't possibly hit every national and local standard but want to select a few key countries
[20:09] <dinda> perhaps Ingots in the UK & India
[20:10] <highvoltage> Ingots is also quite big in South Africa
[20:11]  * JanC googles for "ingots"
[20:12] <highvoltage> mhall119: I'll poke you a bit later about that twidenash script :)
[20:13] <mhall119> ok
[20:13] <JanC> it's soem on-line course program?
[20:13] <mhall119> I may not be around, I have to run up to the hospital in a bit
[20:15] <highvoltage> ok, I guess that's it for the meeting... *GONG*
[20:16] <mhall119> no quorum for a membership vote?
[20:17] <highvoltage> mhall119: I think we should try to get a specific meeting for that, I didn't get around to pinging the council members and telling them to be present today
[20:17] <highvoltage> mhall119: sorry about that
[20:17] <highvoltage> mhall119: I'll try to round them up and poke you tomorrow if that's ok
[20:17] <JanC> if the meeting is over: <JanC> What's a "school server in a box" supposed to do?
[20:17] <mhall119> okay
[20:22] <highvoltage> JanC: I think it was meant to be a general school infrastructure server. I'm not sure what was discussed at that UDS session, but I think it was deemed out of the schope of Edubuntu
[20:22] <highvoltage> probably more appropriate for the server team.
[20:23] <JanC> I would think there is not much difference between a school server and a company server
[20:23] <dinda> JanC: come over to #edubuntu and I'll tell you about it
[20:23] <JanC> okay, I'm there  ;)
[20:23] <highvoltage> JanC: indeed. I guess if we were talking about server-side stuff like schooltool and moodle, then that might have been something else that we might have looked into then
[20:24] <highvoltage> yeah let's move over :)
[21:00] <barry_> hi folks, who's around for today's udd meeting?
[21:00] <barry_> #startmeeting
[21:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is barry_.
[21:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:02] <barry_> thumper, poolie, james_w ping
[21:02] <flacoste> me
[21:02] <james_w> hi
[21:02] <james_w> is it that time already?
[21:02] <barry_> ajmitch: ping
[21:03] <barry_> hi, yeah.  i know the usa (canada too?) went off dst so it comes even earlier for us now
[21:03]  * slangasek waves
[21:03] <poolie> hi
[21:03] <barry_> slangasek: hi
[21:03]  * ajmitch is here
[21:04] <barry_> [TOPIC] agenda
[21:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[21:05] <thumper> barry_: hi
[21:05] <barry_> thumper: hi
[21:05] <barry_> [TOPIC] action items
[21:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  action items
[21:05] <poolie> ?
[21:05] <poolie> no agenda? i added something...
[21:05] <barry_>    * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing)
[21:05] <barry_>  
[21:06] <barry_> er, yes, sorry
[21:06] <ajmitch> I think the wiki formatting is a bit off
[21:06] <barry_> i've been a little ill so kind of unprepared ;)
[21:06] <poolie> sorry to hear that
[21:06] <barry_> fixing... thanks...
[21:06] <barry_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101117
[21:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/20101117
[21:07] <barry_> agenda: action items, udd survey results, bugs
[21:07] <barry_>    * barry to start some sphinx docs to be well-integrated w/ wiki.u.c (ongoing)
[21:07] <barry_>  
[21:07] <barry_> not done, but i'd like to keep it on the list
[21:07] <poolie> agree
[21:07] <barry_>    * poolie to start list thread to find problems which can be carried on at UDS (ongoing)
[21:07] <barry_>  
[21:07] <barry_> i didn't want to take this off without poolie's input
[21:08] <barry_> and...
[21:08] <barry_>    * barry to contact poolie about getting his UDS session notes into the blueprint
[21:08] <barry_>  
[21:08] <poolie> ah, i don't think we had a new thread, but i did gather stuff from old ones
[21:08] <poolie> i sent a brief mail
[21:08] <barry_> poolie: i know you posted to ml, but i haven't read it yet
[21:08] <poolie> with a link
[21:08] <poolie> should we turn them into a blueprint? it's more a bunch of ideas and issues than an actual blueprint
[21:08] <barry_> poolie: thanks.  i think that covers both items
[21:08] <poolie> perhaps we should capture them on a wiki page in more detail than my mail
[21:08] <poolie> i'll take that on
[21:09] <barry_> poolie: thanks.  i do think we should have a blueprint that we can use to track work items
[21:09] <barry_> [ACTION] poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail
[21:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to capture notes from email into wiki page with more detail
[21:10] <barry_> poolie: which reminds me, will jelmer be joining us here after the 1st of the year?
[21:10] <poolie> from the 10th
[21:10] <poolie> oh, in this meeting in particular - i hope so
[21:10] <barry_> cool
[21:10] <poolie> mm, but what time will that be? about 10pm?
[21:11] <poolie> if so, i hope he can
[21:11] <barry_> i have no problem moving the meeting earlier to accommodate, but i think that will affect you and thumper, right?
[21:11] <poolie> it's currently 8am for me; 7am wouldn't be a burden; 6 would be a slight burden
[21:11] <thumper> barry_: I'm ok with an hour earlier (normally)
[21:11] <poolie> let's see how we go
[21:12] <barry_> okay, we can take that up when jelmer's on officially
[21:12] <poolie> so he'll be joining us from the start of the bzr sprint at the platform rally
[21:13] <barry_> excellent.  is that happening at the same time, or a week before/after?  or maybe that's the lp sprint i'm thinking about?
[21:13] <barry_> (sorry, my brain is not with me today)
[21:13] <poolie> overlapping in time and space with the (canonical internal) platform rally,
[21:13] <barry_> that'll be great
[21:13] <poolie> and immediately prior to the lp epic, which we will also be attending
[21:13] <poolie> the first week i plan for us to mostly work together as a small team, of course also talking to ubuntu people
[21:14] <poolie> and the second week i want us to do lots of work crossing the lp:bzr boundary
[21:14] <poolie> eg bzr people fixing things in lp and vice versa
[21:15] <barry_> nice.  i won't be able to attend the lp epic
[21:15] <barry_> [TOPIC] udd survey results
[21:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  udd survey results
[21:16] <barry_> -> poolie
[21:16] <poolie> ok, we got 82 great responses to our "how is udd for you"
[21:17] <poolie> mostly pretty positive: net promoter score (of people who responded) very widely distributed, but with ~60% of people voting 8, 9, or 10
[21:17] <poolie> lots of textual answers
[21:17] <poolie> perhaps i'll just send a dump of raw answers to the list?
[21:17] <barry_> +1
[21:17] <poolie> i don't think there's anything sensitive in there, but i'll check first
[21:17] <poolie> or edit that out if there is
[21:18] <barry_> probably best to anonymize the responses
[21:18] <ajmitch> the answers which score low would be interesting to read
[21:18] <barry_> ajmitch: yep.  it would be nice to see which of those map to known bugs
[21:19] <poolie> so that's an action for me
[21:19] <barry_> [ACTION] poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist
[21:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to send a dump of udd survey results to mlist
[21:19] <barry_> poolie: any themes that stand out?
[21:20] <poolie> good qn
[21:20] <poolie> people generally find the bzr interface nice
[21:20] <barry_> (btw, that Bazaar/Plate page does not yet exist)
[21:20] <poolie> reliability, including getting up to date imports
[21:20] <poolie> error messages caan be confusing
[21:20] <poolie> lp ui clunky
[21:21] <poolie> it's another layer on top of a complicated stack
[21:21] <poolie> when things work, it's great
[21:21] <poolie> contradictory messages (i guess varying experiences) on whether git imports are good or not
[21:22] <poolie> also varying opinions on whether they're glad or frustrated we don't use git
[21:22] <barry_> ;)
[21:22] <ScottK> barry_: I'll show you my clamav mess at bacon-pig if you want more use cases.
[21:22] <poolie> perhaps not surprisingly the people with bad experiences seem to use it the least
[21:23] <poolie> so, we need to look for the place to insert a wedge, where making things a bit better will make people use it more
[21:23] <barry_> ScottK: sounds great
[21:23] <ScottK> poolie: I gave it a try, wrote a long mail to the UDD list about issues I found.  I don't have a sense that a lot has changed.  Not sure if that's accurate or not.
[21:24] <poolie> ScottK: if it's the mail i'm thinking of, i think we got through nearly half since it was sent earlier this year
[21:24]  * ScottK would be glad to try it again if significant progress has been made.
[21:24] <poolie> maybe half by count not size
[21:24] <ScottK> poolie: OK.  That's good to know.
[21:24] <poolie> the others are definitely still on the list
[21:24] <poolie> one interesting thing to call out from udd, is that the general things for the bzr team are
[21:25] <poolie> - network speed, holistically (including mirroring, or shallow checkouts, etc)
[21:25] <ScottK> It's difficult to know the state of the project as a casual observer and has it progressed enough to be worth trying again.
[21:25] <poolie> maybe we should send a better summary of what's changed since eg the last ubuntu release?
[21:26]  * ajmitch will need to sort out something about REVU & branches if I'm to be of use to this meeting 
[21:26] <barry_> poolie: +1
[21:27] <barry_> ajmitch: yes, would you like to prepare something for 2 weeks time?
[21:27] <ajmitch> barry_: OK, I'll try & come up with some questions/suggestions at least
[21:28] <barry_> ajmitch: great!
[21:28] <barry_> who wants to talk about bugs? :)
[21:28] <barry_> [TOPIC] bugs of interest / top bugs
[21:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  bugs of interest / top bugs
[21:28] <slangasek> reliability is still a big problem right now; almost 2000 failures according to http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/
[21:28] <barry_> i'm a little afraid this list is getting pretty long ;)
[21:29] <barry_> slangasek: agreed.  we really need to address the import failures.  can't use udd if the branches aren't there
[21:29] <james_w> http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/language-pack-gnome-lo-base.html
[21:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/language-pack-gnome-lo-base.html
[21:29] <james_w> that's a funny failure mode
[21:30] <barry_> 696 packages failed with key AssertionError:<module>:main:import_package:import_package
[21:30] <ajmitch> debian unstable is hardly getting any updates at the moment, due to squeeze freezing
[21:30] <ajmitch> oops, ECHAN
[21:30] <poolie> so package imports in particular, as a special focus? ok
[21:30] <slangasek> james_w: I see gourmet has landed back in that failure state again in spite of your efforts :(
[21:30] <ScottK> ajmitch: It actually fits.
[21:30] <poolie> we're still having some trouble getting enough time to work on udd things outside of bzr itself
[21:31] <poolie> perhaps a big push on that specific thing will help us focus on it
[21:31] <james_w> slangasek, yeah, I'm still working on it, but it's having to fit in around other things unfortunately
[21:31]  * slangasek nods
[21:31] <barry_> poolie: we have bug 653307 for a different failure case, i guess we should have separate bugs for each major class of import failures?
[21:31] <james_w> slangasek, I understand why we are getting the failure though now
[21:31] <slangasek> oh, good :)
[21:34] <barry_> we have 10 "bugs of interest".  do we want to go through each one?  maybe take a look at the wiki page and see if there has been any progress on any of them?
[21:34] <poolie> barry_: 10? i see 3 on the agenda..
[21:35] <poolie> ... unless i reload
[21:35] <barry_> refresh :)
[21:35] <poolie> let's go, quickly
[21:35] <poolie> a graph of packages is flacoste's favorite nomination
[21:35] <poolie> (and he sets my bonus :-)
[21:35] <ajmitch> heh
[21:35] <poolie> on the grounds that you should put metrics in place early in the use of a feature
[21:36] <poolie> this is mostly about inserting an X-SBC field to mark a package as having been built from a branch
[21:36] <poolie> probably trivial to do; just needs figuring out what would be tasteful to put in it
[21:36] <ajmitch> how much of the BFB infrastructure is in place for that so far?
[21:36] <flacoste> i'd also like a graph of the package-imports and/or hottest100 results
[21:36] <poolie> according to jelmer there is infrastructure to scan it out there
[21:36] <flacoste> so that we assess the quality of our service
[21:37] <poolie> there are graphs of them
[21:37] <poolie> possibly there should be better graphs?
[21:37] <poolie> if we're going to do 10 bugs, and stay roughly within our hour, i'm going to go fairly fast
[21:38] <barry_> poolie: please do
[21:38] <poolie> http://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it
[21:38] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/556132 is the top vote for Linaro - problems in conch - probably needs to be fixed upstream in twisted; i will push it
[21:38]  * barry_ remembers a uds conversation about this during a walk to/from dinner
[21:39] <jam> poolie: I assume that is the point where ssh needs to renegotiate keys?
[21:39] <poolie> http://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms
[21:39] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://pad.lv/375013, commit to stacked branches, is Tim's top vote for the code team - it will ease some issues in building enormous branches in moderate sized vms
[21:39] <poolie> jam: yes, apparently conch says "too hard, bye!"
[21:39] <poolie> > bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror (slangasek)
[21:39] <poolie> needs to be turned into a proper bug, with a number - can you do that steve?
[21:40] <poolie> (watch file support) - james_w and barry to sprint on that at uds-n
[21:40] <flacoste> poolie: couldn't we use stacked branch for that?
[21:40] <poolie> rockin
[21:40] <poolie> flacoste: for what?
[21:40] <slangasek> poolie: ack
[21:40] <flacoste> poolie: specifically, slangasek bug
[21:40] <poolie> it can be part of the solution
[21:40]  * flacoste trying to push Tim's bug up the chain :-)
[21:41] <poolie> this is the thing from uds i described as "network performance holistically"
[21:41] <barry_> on bug 295274; i need to get back to that branch
[21:41] <poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/653307 missing chk root keys
[21:41] <jam> flacoste: the issue raised at UDS is that no matter how little we download, a local mirror is still a lot faster
[21:42] <jam> (even if we get the download to be ~ the same size as the tarball)
[21:42] <flacoste> jam: that's compared to apt-get source right
[21:42] <jam> right
[21:42] <poolie> right
[21:42] <slangasek> right - to be productive I need a good way to have the source already be local
[21:42] <jam> there was a discussion about being able to list the packages you are interested, and having a cron-ish script keep those up to date in a local mirror/shared repo
[21:42] <poolie> there are a bunch of things we can usefully do - local mirrors, raw speed, etc
[21:42] <poolie> let's give it a number, then split it into bugs for each step
[21:43] <poolie> re the missing chk root keys
[21:43] <poolie> i know spiv was working on this
[21:44] <poolie> he didn't mention it recently; i'm not sure why he stopped
[21:44] <poolie> james_w: do you know?
[21:44] <james_w> no, I don't
[21:45] <poolie> i'll ping on the bug
[21:45] <james_w> I think the immediate cause was his bout of illness
[21:45] <barry_> [ACTION] slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror"
[21:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to file bug on "bzr branches are too expensive to use for casual sponsoring, compared with downloading packages from my local mirror"
[21:45] <poolie> probably
[21:45] <ScottK> poolie: Why does the distro packages file need to know if something was built from branch?
[21:46] <poolie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/603395 commit in checkout doesn't propagate tags
[21:46] <ScottK> (or flacoste)
[21:46] <poolie> spiv is working on this and i think it should be done soon
[21:46] <flacoste> ScottK: simply to allow us to track uptake of UDD across the distro
[21:46] <poolie> ScottK: two things: firstly, to answer "how can i get the exact source for this"; secondly and a bit pragmatically, so we can trace how much of ubuntu is using this
[21:47] <poolie> we should split it out from the 'want a graph' bug
[21:47] <ScottK> Right, but making the packages file larger makes apt-get update slower for every single user of Ubuntu.
[21:47] <poolie> true
[21:47] <ScottK> Surely there are less invasive ways to track this.
[21:47] <poolie> perhaps it should not propagate to the binary? or perhaps there's a better way?
[21:47] <james_w> there probably is
[21:47] <poolie> i'd love suggestions
[21:47] <poolie> and that's what i meant by making sure it was tasteful
[21:48] <james_w> X-C should be enough, but that might require some special-casing in LP unfortunately
[21:48] <ScottK> I think that's better than adding more noise to the Packages files.
[21:48] <james_w> we need to decide what data we want, and then we can come up with a way to allow us to capture it
[21:48] <poolie> ok
[21:49] <james_w> if only there was a forum in which we could discuss what data to capture to ensure we were tracking what we wanted
[21:49] <poolie> there's a bug, let's capture the constraints/ideas there
[21:49] <poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/653832 "trying to import version ... again"
[21:50] <poolie> new to me
[21:50] <james_w> that's one that I'm looking at currently
[21:50] <james_w> I know the immediate cause, but I'm a bit worried about what will happen when I unclog the pipe :-)
[21:50] <poolie> cool, thanks
[21:51] <poolie> there's a related thing that's on my plate, which is migrating the package importer onto "proper" is-managed service
[21:51] <poolie> currently in a holding pattern waiting for losa timeslices
[21:51] <poolie> https://launchpad.net/bugs/499684 "Interface to dpkg-buildpackage inconsistent and not well documented" is also new to me
[21:52] <barry_> i think that's ScottK's complaint about -- (one i share :)
[21:53] <poolie> it seems like a good bug report
[21:53] <ajmitch> it is a bit obscure when explaining how to use the tools to newcomers
[21:53] <barry_> on my changelog "bug" - i haven't hit it again yet, so i'm still waiting for a specific example before i file a bug
[21:53] <poolie> i don't think it should preempt others already in train?
[21:53] <barry_> i should probably remove it from top bugs since it isn't one yet
[21:54] <barry_> i think that's it for bugs, unless anybody has any other comments?
[21:55] <barry_> [TOPIC] * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot
[21:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  * Sponsoring/Patch Pilot
[21:55] <poolie> please file a bug for the changelog/merge thing when you can describe it
[21:55] <poolie> nothing else from me
[21:55] <barry_> poolie: yep, definitely
[21:56] <barry_> so next week we start the new regime for sponsoring.  i'm up on monday and i plan to heavily encourage branches and merge proposals.  i'd like to give preferential treatment to reviews in mps.  (note though i can only review anyway)
[21:57] <ajmitch> this'll be a good way to get feedback about sponsoring workflow
[21:57] <barry_> yep, i'll keep copious notes :)
[21:58] <poolie> that's a great idea
[21:58] <barry_> i'll post my thoughts to the udd mlist afterward
[21:59] <barry_> i just wanted to mention this; i don't have much else
[21:59] <barry_> unless anybody has suggestions, or things to emphasize, etc... ?
[22:00] <barry_> [TOPIC] AOB
[22:00] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[22:00] <barry_> anything else not on the agenda?
[22:00] <poolie> sorry one more
[22:00] <poolie> i'd like to look for someone to do a rotation onto the bzr team, ideally from platform
[22:00] <poolie> to free up some time for them to work on this
[22:01] <poolie> if anyone here is interested in working on something different, that's great
[22:01] <poolie> otherwise, think of someone else you might know who it would suit
[22:01] <barry_> poolie: maybe a solicitation on the platform mlist?  (i don't think i can take it on until the py27 transition is done)
[22:01] <poolie> maybe someone who's been working on the same group for a few years and could do with a refresher
[22:02] <poolie> sure, i just thought  about it in the shower this morning
[22:02] <barry_> :)
[22:02] <poolie> i will get the idea out there
[22:02] <james_w> good idea
[22:02] <barry_> awesome
[22:02] <barry_> [ACTION] poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list
[22:02] <MootBot> ACTION received:  poolie to send bzr rotation pitch to platform list
[22:02] <poolie> i'd like to also approach likely candidates individually, if we can get a shortlist
[22:04] <barry_> cool, thanks.  any other business?
[22:04] <poolie> i'll just mention https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bazaar/Plate
[22:04] <poolie> (private only, sorry)
[22:04] <poolie> as a view of what we're up to
[22:05] <poolie> nothing else from me
[22:05] <james_w> I have a merge proposal for barry_, but I think that's a bit to "Other Business"
[22:05] <james_w> poolie, ubuntu.com or canonical.com?
[22:06] <poolie> sorry, canonical
[22:06] <poolie> https://wiki.canonical.com/Bazaar/Plate
[22:07] <barry_> poolie: thanks
[22:07] <barry_> okay, folks.  thanks again for another great meeting.  see you in two weeks
[22:07] <barry_> #endmeeting
[22:07] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:07.
[22:08] <james_w> thanks all
[22:08] <poolie> thanks! :)
[22:08] <slangasek> thanks:)
[22:20] <ScottK> barry_: That's definitely on my list.