/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/18/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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* charlie-tca waves18:58
vinnlHey charlie-tca :)18:58
mr_pouit.19:00
charlie-tcaHm, anyone not here yet, please raise your hand?19:00
* TheSheep raises a hand19:00
charlie-tcaOkie dokie. Don't want to keep anyone too long, so let's go19:01
charlie-tca#startmeeting19:01
MootBotMeeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca.19:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]19:01
charlie-tcaSince I seem to be the one that did that, I'll chair today19:01
charlie-tcaTOPIC agenda19:01
charlie-tca[TOPIC] agenda19:02
MootBotNew Topic:  agenda19:02
charlie-tca# Continue working with the new Governance structure19:02
charlie-tca# Changes for Natty Narwhal19:02
charlie-tca# login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable - charlie-tca19:02
charlie-tca#19:02
charlie-tcaNew icon theme, elementary vs faenza - charlie-tca19:02
charlie-tca# Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)19:02
charlie-tcaHm, not quite the order I wanted. Let's start with Team updates19:02
charlie-tcadevelopers, where we at in natty?19:03
mr_pouitinclusion of Xfce 4.7.x is in progress (a bit blocked currently because of some stupid stuff done by glib developers)19:04
charlie-tcaGreat! Are we staying with the same applications as maverick?19:04
mr_pouitalmost all 4.8 core libs are already there19:04
mr_pouitI think so, unless someone has new things to propose to the ml19:05
charlie-tcaOkay. Thanks, mr_pouit19:05
charlie-tcawebsite ?19:05
mr_pouit(there will probably be some issues because ubuntu is moving to gtk3 and we don't, but we'll see when they arise)19:05
charlie-tcaanything else, mr_pouit ?19:06
mr_pouitno, that's all :p19:07
charlie-tcavinnl: there was some discussion of moving the website to wordpress. Is that still on-going?19:07
vinnlcharlie-tca, I don't know, I believe that was knome's initiative, I have not much to do with keeping the website running19:07
charlie-tcaI had hopes you knew more than me... ;-)19:08
vinnlHehe, sorry to disappoint19:08
charlie-tcaAppears that is falling by the wayside, then.19:08
charlie-tcaAnyone here want to grab documentation? We really need to try and get that updated for Natty19:09
vinnlWasn't Pasi working on an updated version with the new Xubuntu style?19:09
mhall119quick question, is Xfce upgrading to GTK3?19:09
vinnl(@website)19:09
charlie-tcaAs far as I know19:09
charlie-tcamr_pouit: what about gtk3?19:09
mr_pouitmhall119: no, 4.8 will use gtk219:09
mhall119ok19:10
vinnlThere was a discussion on the Xfce list about this today19:10
vinnlThey wanted to wait until it's been released for a while so bugs have been ironed out19:10
mhall119works for me19:10
mr_pouit(ah, I didn't have the time to check my mails from today ;)19:10
mhall119how about settings, I thought I heard a while ago plans to move to dconf/gsettings19:11
vinnlThey mentioned that too, same conversation19:11
mhall119ok19:11
vinnlThey wanted to, eventually, but xfconf works fine, so they're not in a hurry19:11
mhall119do you happen to hav a link to that thread vinnl ?19:11
vinnlIt's not the transition that's a lot of work, it's conversion of settings :)19:11
vinnlEhm, let me look19:11
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vinnlmhall119, here: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html19:12
mhall119thanks, cause that move is going to affect QImo19:12
charlie-tca[LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html19:12
MootBotLINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html19:12
charlie-tcaokay, moving on then19:13
charlie-tcahttp://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html19:13
MootBotLINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html19:13
charlie-tcaBugs and Testing: We are working to triage bugs as they come in. We are getting hit pretty hard on abiword right now19:14
charlie-tcaGot to try and upstream those19:14
charlie-tcaTesting will be ongoing, with the changes in Natty for Ubuntu, we need to try and test every day or two.19:14
charlie-tcaI am running a full upgrade maverick to natty already, on my daily use machine19:15
charlie-tcaArtwork: I have gotten with the community artwork team, they have drawn up a preliminary spec for us:19:16
charlie-tcahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-719:16
charlie-tca[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-719:16
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-719:16
charlie-tcaIf anyone has suggestions for that, I am open.19:16
charlie-tcaAlso, we are looking at replacing the elementary icon theme with faenza19:17
charlie-tca[LINK] http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce19:17
MootBotLINK received:  http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce19:17
charlie-tcaIt looks to be a very nice theme19:17
charlie-tcawell, icon set19:17
charlie-tcaany objections to replacing elementary?19:18
vinnlEhm19:18
TheSheepcharlie-tca: I think that faenza has severe usability problems19:18
vinnlI recall reading on the faenza page that a lot of icons were missing, recently. Is that still the case?19:18
TheSheepcharlie-tca: especially with the small icons19:18
thorwilhi, let me catch up19:19
TheSheepcharlie-tca: in particular, all the icons have the same outline19:19
charlie-tcaYou mean, the squares?19:19
TheSheepyes19:19
mr_pouityeah, for the completeness, I think ochosi is working on it (but he doesn't seem to be here now)19:20
charlie-tcaThe colors are great for visibility, though19:20
TheSheepplus, the icons are different than the default icons for most applications19:20
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thorwilhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7 is the work of j_baer, not the "team". well, and full of problems19:20
charlie-tcaYesw, they are different19:20
TheSheepI just spent a minute looking for gimp (I enabled faenza for test)19:20
charlie-tcathorwil: help?19:20
vinnlcharlie-tca, also, about the spec - what Creative Commons license must submissions adhere to?19:21
vinnl-NC is quite restrictive19:21
thorwilcharlie-tca: i'm Thorsten Wilms. you will remember that we talked about design and the need for differentiation and a strategy at UDS19:21
charlie-tcaYup19:21
charlie-tcaI remember. I did not realize that spec was not good.19:21
thorwilso the problem of that spec is that it is not based on any such thoughts19:21
charlie-tcashould I email you and Saleel for this one?19:22
thorwilsure19:22
mhall119vinnl: IIRC, -NC isn't allowed in universe19:22
charlie-tcaGlad you made it here.19:22
thorwilunless you want to discuss the very definition of the project and the strategy right here :)19:22
vinnlmhall119, more reason to state that in the spec :)19:22
charlie-tcaOkay, throw the spec page out for now. I will get the artists and get a real one drawn up. If anyone has ideas, we need them.19:23
mr_pouitI can't see where -nc is written…19:23
thorwilif CC, ask for plain CC or CC-SA19:23
vinnlmr_pouit, no, but no specific CC license is specified, which implies -NC is an option19:23
thorwilNC and ND don't belong19:23
vinnlExactly19:23
mr_pouityeah ok19:24
vinnlAh yeah I meant ND, that's the worst clause :)19:24
knome'lo19:24
thorwilhi knome19:24
charlie-tcaHey , knome19:24
charlie-tcaWe were just discussing possible specs for artwork19:24
knomemm-hmm19:25
mr_pouit(well, with -nc you can't even put a screenshot of the desktop in a book/magazine…)19:25
charlie-tcaapparently, I am in a pile of straw when it comes to it. thorwil is going to help draw up specs, I think19:26
vinnlmr_pouit, I suppose that would fall under Fair Use, which I think most countries have? Still, it'd definitely be undesirable19:26
vinnlBut okay, if a new spec is going to be written, this  can be something to keep in mind, no need to discuss it further I suppose19:27
thorwilknome: where i have been gently pushing, along with Saleel, to first have a clear definition of the xubuntu project. especially how it differentiates itself from ubuntu and other. why it is worthwhile19:27
thorwilknome: as these questions will lead to a message to get across via the artwork19:27
knomeyes..19:28
charlie-tcavinnl: I think we can draw it up to give us the license we need submissions to fall under19:28
charlie-tcabut right now, it seems to be "guess and pray" requests19:29
charlie-tcaknome: thoughts on this?19:29
knomenot really19:30
knomesounds doable19:30
thorwili'v been told that the "lightweight" aspect often makes people think xubuntu would be only for old hardware. so instead, maybe emphasize performance?19:30
charlie-tcaDo we need to have a separate meeting for this discussion to happen, or do it via mailing list/emails. I don't think thorwil and saleel are on the xubuntu lists19:30
thorwiland it seems xubuntu will be conservative compared to ubuntu19:31
knomecharlie-tca, since there is not artwork team in xubuntu ATM, isn't it you who accepts or declines what thorwil and saleel have drafted?19:32
charlie-tcaI like the emphasize performance part19:32
beardygnomei agree with thorwil, lightweight tends to give the wrong impression19:32
charlie-tcaI guess it is. but I kind of take everyone's word on it, since I don't know all the in's and out's19:32
thorwilknome: ideally most of this would come from team members, while i just offer guidance19:33
knomethorwil, there is no such 'team members'19:33
charlie-tcaknome: we still like to have input on it. You know more about licenses and what the artwork should represent than I do19:33
charlie-tca[ACTION] charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email19:35
MootBotACTION received:  charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email19:35
knomeimo if somebody wants his work in xubuntu, it should be no problem to publish the artwork in whatever license you ask for19:35
charlie-tca[TOPIC] login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable19:36
MootBotNew Topic:  login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable19:36
mhall119why?19:36
knomecharlie-tca, there has been talk about LightDM19:36
charlie-tcawhy? because we keep getting issues with GDM when they change things in Gnome19:37
mhall119LightDM uses webkit?19:37
charlie-tcaI have been following the lightDM stuff. Does it use webkit?19:38
highvoltageyep, you can even try it in your web browser :)19:38
mr_pouitone of the greeters uses webkit19:38
highvoltage(well, the greeter, anyway)19:38
mhall119oh, appears there's a separate -webkit and -gnome versions19:38
charlie-tcagnome versions are what makes things difficult sometimes.19:38
charlie-tcamr_pouit: what about what is it ? lxdm?19:39
mhall119how about LXDE's new one?19:39
mhall119heh19:39
charlie-tcaWouldn't it make things easier than GDM?19:39
cyberangerI use SLiM myself19:39
mr_pouitI don't know, didn't try since a long time. But I trust lightdm to be better written ;]19:40
charlie-tcahm, it seems like lightdm is not quite ready. Can we get with Robert Ancell on it and see what is happening?19:41
charlie-tcaWho wants to follow that up?19:42
charlie-tca[ACTION] Find out more information about LightDM19:43
MootBotACTION received:  Find out more information about LightDM19:43
charlie-tcaanything else on this subject?19:43
knomecharlie-tca, maybe consider also asking xfce devs19:43
knomethey could know something about that...19:44
charlie-tcaI like that idea, too19:44
mr_pouitRobert Ancell sent a mail to xfce4-dev a few weeks ago iirc19:44
charlie-tca[ACTION] follow up with xfce devs on display managers19:44
MootBotACTION received:  follow up with xfce devs on display managers19:44
charlie-tcaI will try to research it, then19:45
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Continue working with the new Governance structure19:45
MootBotNew Topic:  Continue working with the new Governance structure19:45
charlie-tcayes, this is on-going.19:45
charlie-tcaWe are going to have to set up a vote of some kind to formalize a project lead so we can set up a governing council19:46
charlie-tcaDoes that make sense?19:46
charlie-tcasuggestions for doing that?19:46
vinnlHow are the nominees going to be decided?19:46
knomecharlie-tca, the thread about lightdm @xfce4-dev ml: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html19:47
charlie-tcaAt this point, I am an interim Project Lead. We can ask for monimees through the mailing list again, and give a time frame for submissions, like about two weeks19:47
charlie-tcaThanks, knome19:47
charlie-tca[LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html19:48
MootBotLINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html19:48
charlie-tcatwo weeks appears to be the accepted time for submissions, doesn't it?19:48
vinnlI suppose it's long enough19:48
charlie-tcathen we can ask for votes, either in a meeting like this, through the mailing list, throught the community council19:49
charlie-tcaI just think we need to do something19:50
charlie-tcaI also plan on a meeting every two weeks at this time, to keep everyone up to date on what is happening in Xubuntu19:50
charlie-tcaany suggestions on how to select the project lead?19:51
vinnlDo you think attendance will be high enough with such frequent meetings?19:51
knomejust see if any volunteers step up frist19:51
knome*first19:51
JanCBTW: the LightDM -gnome greeter is actually a Gtk greeter19:51
knomeagreed with vinnl - once per two weeks is a bit too much19:51
mhall119edubuntu does weekly meetings, I'm sure xubuntu can bring in at least as many people19:52
charlie-tcaHow high does attendance need to be? If we get the team leads to give updates, that is a good meeting for updating everyone19:52
knomewould have been too much even when we had a more active community19:52
charlie-tcaum, you won't generate interest without creating something19:52
vinnlmhall119, how many does Edubuntu bring?19:52
vinnlAgreed19:52
charlie-tcawe have tried without any meetings, and it falls way short19:52
mhall119vinnl: usuallly only a few19:52
mhall119but it's good to keep in touch and everyone up to date19:53
vinnlYeah zero meetings is too few I suppose :P19:53
charlie-tcaWe get about 10 in QA, less in bugsqad meetings.19:53
charlie-tcaAccessibility has what, about 5 or 6 regulars at the meetings?19:53
vinnlThen I suppose Xubuntu would be able to pull it off as well. Still, that's a lot of meetings during the cycle. Perhaps one in three weeks would be better?19:53
highvoltageeven when there's only 1 or 2 people present at an edubuntu meeting I find it useful for making sure that at least *someone* knows what's been happeneing the last week :)19:54
vinnlHmm yeah, sounds reasonable19:54
vinnlWould be very useful for the project lead at least, I suppose19:54
charlie-tcaI figured two weeks at first, then if we want to, go to monthly. It is easier with regular schedules of 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, etc19:54
vinnlSo if the project lead is willing to be there once every two weeks, I suppose it's fine19:55
mhall119weekly meetings are easy to remember19:55
charlie-tcaI am thinking of every two weeks, on Thursday, 19:00 UTC19:55
mhall119no "is this a meeting week or not'19:55
mhall119if it's wednesday, I know there's an edubuntu meeting19:55
charlie-tcamhall119: you make a really good point19:56
charlie-tcaI have enough people here, maybe. should we vote?19:56
mhall119some edubuntu meetings don't last very long, but it's good to have them so regularly19:56
charlie-tcaWe could have two votes, I guess. one for weekly and one for two weeks apart. a yes vote is marked by +1, a no vote is -119:57
charlie-tcaeveryone is allowed to vote19:57
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charlie-tca[VOTE] for weekly meeting19:58
MootBotPlease vote on:  for weekly meeting.19:58
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:58
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:58
vinnl+119:58
MootBot+1 received from vinnl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:58
mhall119+119:58
MootBot+1 received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:58
mr_pouit+119:58
MootBot+1 received from mr_pouit. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:58
beardygnome+019:58
MootBotAbstention received from beardygnome. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 319:58
charlie-tca-119:58
MootBot-1 received from charlie-tca. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 219:58
knome-119:58
MootBot-1 received from knome. 3 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 119:58
charlie-tcaAny other votes?19:59
charlie-tca[ENDVOTE]19:59
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 2 against. 1 abstained. Total: 119:59
charlie-tcaNow what do I do? should we vote for two weeks too?20:00
beardygnomeyes20:00
knomevote for one month20:00
charlie-tca[VOTE] for meetings every two weeks20:00
MootBotPlease vote on:  for meetings every two weeks.20:00
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot20:00
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting20:00
charlie-tca+120:00
MootBot+1 received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 120:00
beardygnome+120:00
MootBot+1 received from beardygnome. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 220:00
mr_pouit+020:01
MootBotAbstention received from mr_pouit. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 220:01
vinnl+020:02
MootBotAbstention received from vinnl. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 220:02
mhall119+020:02
MootBotAbstention received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 220:02
charlie-tca[ENDVOTE]20:02
MootBotFinal result is 2 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 220:02
charlie-tcaI am not sure that did any good. If we have meetings every week, we get more attendance, it looks like.20:03
charlie-tcaSome people will make every other meeting, which is great!20:03
charlie-tcaI think the second vote was pointless. plan on meeting every week20:03
beardygnomecharlie-tca: if you're happy to run the meeting every week then go with every week20:04
charlie-tca[AGREED] Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC20:04
MootBotAGREED received:  Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC20:04
highvoltageif weekly meetings doesn't work you can always fall back on not doing them :)20:04
charlie-tcaIf I miss a week, someone else should feel free to chair20:05
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk
charlie-tcaAnd now,20:05
vinnlI'm not sure if  that's going to happen :P20:05
charlie-tca[TOPIC] Any other business20:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business20:05
charlie-tcagoing,20:06
mhall119is Xubuntu going to automatically benefit from the work being done to reduce the size of the Ubuntu ISO?20:06
charlie-tcaNot necessarily. It depends on what they do20:06
charlie-tcaWhen they cut gimp, it did not help us20:06
charlie-tcagoing,20:07
mhall119they're dropping perl deps20:07
mhall119and re-building packages to be smaller20:07
mhall119optimizing images20:07
mhall119etc20:07
charlie-tcamr_pouit: that should help, right?20:07
mhall119https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint20:07
mr_pouityeah, for the ones that are done automatically (png optimization)20:08
charlie-tca[LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint20:08
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint20:08
mr_pouit(and also removal of packages' changelogs)20:08
charlie-tcaI want to thank all of you for attending. Let's continue next week! :-)20:09
charlie-tcamhall119: does that work?20:09
mhall119same day/time?20:09
mhall119charlie-tca: does what work?20:09
charlie-tcathe answer from mr_pouit20:09
mhall119oh, yeah, thanks20:09
charlie-tcaNext meeting Thursday 19:00 UTC20:10
charlie-tca#endmeeting20:10
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:10.20:10
mhall119I'll be bugging you guys a lot more in the next 5 months, for sure20:10
charlie-tcaWorks for us20:10
mhall119should I hang out in #xubuntu or #xubuntu-devel?20:10
vinnlThanks for chairing charlie-tca20:10
beardygnomethankc charlie-tca20:11
charlie-tcamhall119: #xubuntu-devel20:11
beardygnome*thanks20:11
mr_pouitmhall119: -devel if it's for development related questions :P20:11
mhall119ok, thanks20:11
charlie-tcaYou are welcome.20:11

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