=== nhandler_ is now known as nhandler === cking is now known as cking|afk === cking|afk is now known as cking === jdstrand_ is now known as jdstrand === Joeb454 is now known as CptSerious === CptSerious is now known as Joeb454 === yofel_ is now known as yofel [18:58] * charlie-tca waves [18:58] Hey charlie-tca :) [19:00] . [19:00] Hm, anyone not here yet, please raise your hand? [19:00] * TheSheep raises a hand [19:01] Okie dokie. Don't want to keep anyone too long, so let's go [19:01] #startmeeting [19:01] Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca. [19:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [19:01] Since I seem to be the one that did that, I'll chair today [19:01] TOPIC agenda [19:02] [TOPIC] agenda [19:02] New Topic: agenda [19:02] # Continue working with the new Governance structure [19:02] # Changes for Natty Narwhal [19:02] # login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable - charlie-tca [19:02] # [19:02] New icon theme, elementary vs faenza - charlie-tca [19:02] # Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork) [19:02] Hm, not quite the order I wanted. Let's start with Team updates [19:03] developers, where we at in natty? [19:04] inclusion of Xfce 4.7.x is in progress (a bit blocked currently because of some stupid stuff done by glib developers) [19:04] Great! Are we staying with the same applications as maverick? [19:04] almost all 4.8 core libs are already there [19:05] I think so, unless someone has new things to propose to the ml [19:05] Okay. Thanks, mr_pouit [19:05] website ? [19:05] (there will probably be some issues because ubuntu is moving to gtk3 and we don't, but we'll see when they arise) [19:06] anything else, mr_pouit ? [19:07] no, that's all :p [19:07] vinnl: there was some discussion of moving the website to wordpress. Is that still on-going? [19:07] charlie-tca, I don't know, I believe that was knome's initiative, I have not much to do with keeping the website running [19:08] I had hopes you knew more than me... ;-) [19:08] Hehe, sorry to disappoint [19:08] Appears that is falling by the wayside, then. [19:09] Anyone here want to grab documentation? We really need to try and get that updated for Natty [19:09] Wasn't Pasi working on an updated version with the new Xubuntu style? [19:09] quick question, is Xfce upgrading to GTK3? [19:09] (@website) [19:09] As far as I know [19:09] mr_pouit: what about gtk3? [19:09] mhall119: no, 4.8 will use gtk2 [19:10] ok [19:10] There was a discussion on the Xfce list about this today [19:10] They wanted to wait until it's been released for a while so bugs have been ironed out [19:10] works for me [19:10] (ah, I didn't have the time to check my mails from today ;) [19:11] how about settings, I thought I heard a while ago plans to move to dconf/gsettings [19:11] They mentioned that too, same conversation [19:11] ok [19:11] They wanted to, eventually, but xfconf works fine, so they're not in a hurry [19:11] do you happen to hav a link to that thread vinnl ? [19:11] It's not the transition that's a lot of work, it's conversion of settings :) [19:11] Ehm, let me look === ivanka is now known as ivanka-train [19:12] mhall119, here: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html [19:12] thanks, cause that move is going to affect QImo [19:12] [LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html [19:12] LINK received: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html [19:13] okay, moving on then [19:13] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html [19:13] LINK received: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html [19:14] Bugs and Testing: We are working to triage bugs as they come in. We are getting hit pretty hard on abiword right now [19:14] Got to try and upstream those [19:14] Testing will be ongoing, with the changes in Natty for Ubuntu, we need to try and test every day or two. [19:15] I am running a full upgrade maverick to natty already, on my daily use machine [19:16] Artwork: I have gotten with the community artwork team, they have drawn up a preliminary spec for us: [19:16] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7 [19:16] [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7 [19:16] LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7 [19:16] If anyone has suggestions for that, I am open. [19:17] Also, we are looking at replacing the elementary icon theme with faenza [19:17] [LINK] http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce [19:17] LINK received: http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce [19:17] It looks to be a very nice theme [19:17] well, icon set [19:18] any objections to replacing elementary? [19:18] Ehm [19:18] charlie-tca: I think that faenza has severe usability problems [19:18] I recall reading on the faenza page that a lot of icons were missing, recently. Is that still the case? [19:18] charlie-tca: especially with the small icons [19:19] hi, let me catch up [19:19] charlie-tca: in particular, all the icons have the same outline [19:19] You mean, the squares? [19:19] yes [19:20] yeah, for the completeness, I think ochosi is working on it (but he doesn't seem to be here now) [19:20] The colors are great for visibility, though [19:20] plus, the icons are different than the default icons for most applications === JFo is now known as JFo-food [19:20] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7 is the work of j_baer, not the "team". well, and full of problems [19:20] Yesw, they are different [19:20] I just spent a minute looking for gimp (I enabled faenza for test) [19:20] thorwil: help? [19:21] charlie-tca, also, about the spec - what Creative Commons license must submissions adhere to? [19:21] -NC is quite restrictive [19:21] charlie-tca: i'm Thorsten Wilms. you will remember that we talked about design and the need for differentiation and a strategy at UDS [19:21] Yup [19:21] I remember. I did not realize that spec was not good. [19:21] so the problem of that spec is that it is not based on any such thoughts [19:22] should I email you and Saleel for this one? [19:22] sure [19:22] vinnl: IIRC, -NC isn't allowed in universe [19:22] Glad you made it here. [19:22] unless you want to discuss the very definition of the project and the strategy right here :) [19:22] mhall119, more reason to state that in the spec :) [19:23] Okay, throw the spec page out for now. I will get the artists and get a real one drawn up. If anyone has ideas, we need them. [19:23] I can't see where -nc is written… [19:23] if CC, ask for plain CC or CC-SA [19:23] mr_pouit, no, but no specific CC license is specified, which implies -NC is an option [19:23] NC and ND don't belong [19:23] Exactly [19:24] yeah ok [19:24] Ah yeah I meant ND, that's the worst clause :) [19:24] 'lo [19:24] hi knome [19:24] Hey , knome [19:24] We were just discussing possible specs for artwork [19:25] mm-hmm [19:25] (well, with -nc you can't even put a screenshot of the desktop in a book/magazine…) [19:26] apparently, I am in a pile of straw when it comes to it. thorwil is going to help draw up specs, I think [19:26] mr_pouit, I suppose that would fall under Fair Use, which I think most countries have? Still, it'd definitely be undesirable [19:27] But okay, if a new spec is going to be written, this can be something to keep in mind, no need to discuss it further I suppose [19:27] knome: where i have been gently pushing, along with Saleel, to first have a clear definition of the xubuntu project. especially how it differentiates itself from ubuntu and other. why it is worthwhile [19:27] knome: as these questions will lead to a message to get across via the artwork [19:28] yes.. [19:28] vinnl: I think we can draw it up to give us the license we need submissions to fall under [19:29] but right now, it seems to be "guess and pray" requests [19:29] knome: thoughts on this? [19:30] not really [19:30] sounds doable [19:30] i'v been told that the "lightweight" aspect often makes people think xubuntu would be only for old hardware. so instead, maybe emphasize performance? [19:30] Do we need to have a separate meeting for this discussion to happen, or do it via mailing list/emails. I don't think thorwil and saleel are on the xubuntu lists [19:31] and it seems xubuntu will be conservative compared to ubuntu [19:32] charlie-tca, since there is not artwork team in xubuntu ATM, isn't it you who accepts or declines what thorwil and saleel have drafted? [19:32] I like the emphasize performance part [19:32] i agree with thorwil, lightweight tends to give the wrong impression [19:32] I guess it is. but I kind of take everyone's word on it, since I don't know all the in's and out's [19:33] knome: ideally most of this would come from team members, while i just offer guidance [19:33] thorwil, there is no such 'team members' [19:33] knome: we still like to have input on it. You know more about licenses and what the artwork should represent than I do [19:35] [ACTION] charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email [19:35] ACTION received: charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email [19:35] imo if somebody wants his work in xubuntu, it should be no problem to publish the artwork in whatever license you ask for [19:36] [TOPIC] login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable [19:36] New Topic: login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable [19:36] why? [19:36] charlie-tca, there has been talk about LightDM [19:37] why? because we keep getting issues with GDM when they change things in Gnome [19:37] LightDM uses webkit? [19:38] I have been following the lightDM stuff. Does it use webkit? [19:38] yep, you can even try it in your web browser :) [19:38] one of the greeters uses webkit [19:38] (well, the greeter, anyway) [19:38] oh, appears there's a separate -webkit and -gnome versions [19:38] gnome versions are what makes things difficult sometimes. [19:39] mr_pouit: what about what is it ? lxdm? [19:39] how about LXDE's new one? [19:39] heh [19:39] Wouldn't it make things easier than GDM? [19:39] I use SLiM myself [19:40] I don't know, didn't try since a long time. But I trust lightdm to be better written ;] [19:41] hm, it seems like lightdm is not quite ready. Can we get with Robert Ancell on it and see what is happening? [19:42] Who wants to follow that up? [19:43] [ACTION] Find out more information about LightDM [19:43] ACTION received: Find out more information about LightDM [19:43] anything else on this subject? [19:43] charlie-tca, maybe consider also asking xfce devs [19:44] they could know something about that... [19:44] I like that idea, too [19:44] Robert Ancell sent a mail to xfce4-dev a few weeks ago iirc [19:44] [ACTION] follow up with xfce devs on display managers [19:44] ACTION received: follow up with xfce devs on display managers [19:45] I will try to research it, then [19:45] [TOPIC] Continue working with the new Governance structure [19:45] New Topic: Continue working with the new Governance structure [19:45] yes, this is on-going. [19:46] We are going to have to set up a vote of some kind to formalize a project lead so we can set up a governing council [19:46] Does that make sense? [19:46] suggestions for doing that? [19:46] How are the nominees going to be decided? [19:47] charlie-tca, the thread about lightdm @xfce4-dev ml: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html [19:47] At this point, I am an interim Project Lead. We can ask for monimees through the mailing list again, and give a time frame for submissions, like about two weeks [19:47] Thanks, knome [19:48] [LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html [19:48] LINK received: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html [19:48] two weeks appears to be the accepted time for submissions, doesn't it? [19:48] I suppose it's long enough [19:49] then we can ask for votes, either in a meeting like this, through the mailing list, throught the community council [19:50] I just think we need to do something [19:50] I also plan on a meeting every two weeks at this time, to keep everyone up to date on what is happening in Xubuntu [19:51] any suggestions on how to select the project lead? [19:51] Do you think attendance will be high enough with such frequent meetings? [19:51] just see if any volunteers step up frist [19:51] *first [19:51] BTW: the LightDM -gnome greeter is actually a Gtk greeter [19:51] agreed with vinnl - once per two weeks is a bit too much [19:52] edubuntu does weekly meetings, I'm sure xubuntu can bring in at least as many people [19:52] How high does attendance need to be? If we get the team leads to give updates, that is a good meeting for updating everyone [19:52] would have been too much even when we had a more active community [19:52] um, you won't generate interest without creating something [19:52] mhall119, how many does Edubuntu bring? [19:52] Agreed [19:52] we have tried without any meetings, and it falls way short [19:52] vinnl: usuallly only a few [19:53] but it's good to keep in touch and everyone up to date [19:53] Yeah zero meetings is too few I suppose :P [19:53] We get about 10 in QA, less in bugsqad meetings. [19:53] Accessibility has what, about 5 or 6 regulars at the meetings? [19:53] Then I suppose Xubuntu would be able to pull it off as well. Still, that's a lot of meetings during the cycle. Perhaps one in three weeks would be better? [19:54] even when there's only 1 or 2 people present at an edubuntu meeting I find it useful for making sure that at least *someone* knows what's been happeneing the last week :) [19:54] Hmm yeah, sounds reasonable [19:54] Would be very useful for the project lead at least, I suppose [19:54] I figured two weeks at first, then if we want to, go to monthly. It is easier with regular schedules of 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, etc [19:55] So if the project lead is willing to be there once every two weeks, I suppose it's fine [19:55] weekly meetings are easy to remember [19:55] I am thinking of every two weeks, on Thursday, 19:00 UTC [19:55] no "is this a meeting week or not' [19:55] if it's wednesday, I know there's an edubuntu meeting [19:56] mhall119: you make a really good point [19:56] I have enough people here, maybe. should we vote? [19:56] some edubuntu meetings don't last very long, but it's good to have them so regularly [19:57] We could have two votes, I guess. one for weekly and one for two weeks apart. a yes vote is marked by +1, a no vote is -1 [19:57] everyone is allowed to vote === JFo-food is now known as JFo [19:58] [VOTE] for weekly meeting [19:58] Please vote on: for weekly meeting. [19:58] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [19:58] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [19:58] +1 [19:58] +1 received from vinnl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [19:58] +1 [19:58] +1 received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [19:58] +1 [19:58] +1 received from mr_pouit. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [19:58] +0 [19:58] Abstention received from beardygnome. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3 [19:58] -1 [19:58] -1 received from charlie-tca. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2 [19:58] -1 [19:58] -1 received from knome. 3 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1 [19:59] Any other votes? [19:59] [ENDVOTE] [19:59] Final result is 3 for, 2 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1 [20:00] Now what do I do? should we vote for two weeks too? [20:00] yes [20:00] vote for one month [20:00] [VOTE] for meetings every two weeks [20:00] Please vote on: for meetings every two weeks. [20:00] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [20:00] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [20:00] +1 [20:00] +1 received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [20:00] +1 [20:00] +1 received from beardygnome. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [20:01] +0 [20:01] Abstention received from mr_pouit. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2 [20:02] +0 [20:02] Abstention received from vinnl. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2 [20:02] +0 [20:02] Abstention received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2 [20:02] [ENDVOTE] [20:02] Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 2 [20:03] I am not sure that did any good. If we have meetings every week, we get more attendance, it looks like. [20:03] Some people will make every other meeting, which is great! [20:03] I think the second vote was pointless. plan on meeting every week [20:04] charlie-tca: if you're happy to run the meeting every week then go with every week [20:04] [AGREED] Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC [20:04] AGREED received: Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC [20:04] if weekly meetings doesn't work you can always fall back on not doing them :) [20:05] If I miss a week, someone else should feel free to chair === Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-afk [20:05] And now, [20:05] I'm not sure if that's going to happen :P [20:05] [TOPIC] Any other business [20:05] New Topic: Any other business [20:06] going, [20:06] is Xubuntu going to automatically benefit from the work being done to reduce the size of the Ubuntu ISO? [20:06] Not necessarily. It depends on what they do [20:06] When they cut gimp, it did not help us [20:07] going, [20:07] they're dropping perl deps [20:07] and re-building packages to be smaller [20:07] optimizing images [20:07] etc [20:07] mr_pouit: that should help, right? [20:07] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint [20:08] yeah, for the ones that are done automatically (png optimization) [20:08] [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint [20:08] LINK received: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint [20:08] (and also removal of packages' changelogs) [20:09] I want to thank all of you for attending. Let's continue next week! :-) [20:09] mhall119: does that work? [20:09] same day/time? [20:09] charlie-tca: does what work? [20:09] the answer from mr_pouit [20:09] oh, yeah, thanks [20:10] Next meeting Thursday 19:00 UTC [20:10] #endmeeting [20:10] Meeting finished at 14:10. [20:10] I'll be bugging you guys a lot more in the next 5 months, for sure [20:10] Works for us [20:10] should I hang out in #xubuntu or #xubuntu-devel? [20:10] Thanks for chairing charlie-tca [20:11] thankc charlie-tca [20:11] mhall119: #xubuntu-devel [20:11] *thanks [20:11] mhall119: -devel if it's for development related questions :P [20:11] ok, thanks [20:11] You are welcome.