[18:58]  * charlie-tca waves
[18:58] <vinnl> Hey charlie-tca :)
[19:00] <mr_pouit> .
[19:00] <charlie-tca> Hm, anyone not here yet, please raise your hand?
[19:00]  * TheSheep raises a hand
[19:01] <charlie-tca> Okie dokie. Don't want to keep anyone too long, so let's go
[19:01] <charlie-tca> #startmeeting
[19:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca.
[19:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:01] <charlie-tca> Since I seem to be the one that did that, I'll chair today
[19:01] <charlie-tca> TOPIC agenda
[19:02] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] agenda
[19:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  agenda
[19:02] <charlie-tca> # Continue working with the new Governance structure
[19:02] <charlie-tca> # Changes for Natty Narwhal
[19:02] <charlie-tca> # login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable - charlie-tca
[19:02] <charlie-tca> #
[19:02] <charlie-tca> New icon theme, elementary vs faenza - charlie-tca
[19:02] <charlie-tca> # Team updates (Packaging, Bug Triage, Development / Coding, Testing, Documentation, Artwork)
[19:02] <charlie-tca> Hm, not quite the order I wanted. Let's start with Team updates
[19:03] <charlie-tca> developers, where we at in natty?
[19:04] <mr_pouit> inclusion of Xfce 4.7.x is in progress (a bit blocked currently because of some stupid stuff done by glib developers)
[19:04] <charlie-tca> Great! Are we staying with the same applications as maverick?
[19:04] <mr_pouit> almost all 4.8 core libs are already there
[19:05] <mr_pouit> I think so, unless someone has new things to propose to the ml
[19:05] <charlie-tca> Okay. Thanks, mr_pouit
[19:05] <charlie-tca> website ?
[19:05] <mr_pouit> (there will probably be some issues because ubuntu is moving to gtk3 and we don't, but we'll see when they arise)
[19:06] <charlie-tca> anything else, mr_pouit ?
[19:07] <mr_pouit> no, that's all :p
[19:07] <charlie-tca> vinnl: there was some discussion of moving the website to wordpress. Is that still on-going?
[19:07] <vinnl> charlie-tca, I don't know, I believe that was knome's initiative, I have not much to do with keeping the website running
[19:08] <charlie-tca> I had hopes you knew more than me... ;-)
[19:08] <vinnl> Hehe, sorry to disappoint
[19:08] <charlie-tca> Appears that is falling by the wayside, then.
[19:09] <charlie-tca> Anyone here want to grab documentation? We really need to try and get that updated for Natty
[19:09] <vinnl> Wasn't Pasi working on an updated version with the new Xubuntu style?
[19:09] <mhall119> quick question, is Xfce upgrading to GTK3?
[19:09] <vinnl> (@website)
[19:09] <charlie-tca> As far as I know
[19:09] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: what about gtk3?
[19:09] <mr_pouit> mhall119: no, 4.8 will use gtk2
[19:10] <mhall119> ok
[19:10] <vinnl> There was a discussion on the Xfce list about this today
[19:10] <vinnl> They wanted to wait until it's been released for a while so bugs have been ironed out
[19:10] <mhall119> works for me
[19:10] <mr_pouit> (ah, I didn't have the time to check my mails from today ;)
[19:11] <mhall119> how about settings, I thought I heard a while ago plans to move to dconf/gsettings
[19:11] <vinnl> They mentioned that too, same conversation
[19:11] <mhall119> ok
[19:11] <vinnl> They wanted to, eventually, but xfconf works fine, so they're not in a hurry
[19:11] <mhall119> do you happen to hav a link to that thread vinnl ?
[19:11] <vinnl> It's not the transition that's a lot of work, it's conversion of settings :)
[19:11] <vinnl> Ehm, let me look
[19:12] <vinnl> mhall119, here: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
[19:12] <mhall119> thanks, cause that move is going to affect QImo
[19:12] <charlie-tca> [LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
[19:12] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
[19:13] <charlie-tca> okay, moving on then
[19:13] <charlie-tca> http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
[19:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-November/028400.html
[19:14] <charlie-tca> Bugs and Testing: We are working to triage bugs as they come in. We are getting hit pretty hard on abiword right now
[19:14] <charlie-tca> Got to try and upstream those
[19:14] <charlie-tca> Testing will be ongoing, with the changes in Natty for Ubuntu, we need to try and test every day or two.
[19:15] <charlie-tca> I am running a full upgrade maverick to natty already, on my daily use machine
[19:16] <charlie-tca> Artwork: I have gotten with the community artwork team, they have drawn up a preliminary spec for us:
[19:16] <charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7
[19:16] <charlie-tca> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7
[19:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7
[19:16] <charlie-tca> If anyone has suggestions for that, I am open.
[19:17] <charlie-tca> Also, we are looking at replacing the elementary icon theme with faenza
[19:17] <charlie-tca> [LINK] http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
[19:17] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://shimmerproject.org/hg/faenza-xfce
[19:17] <charlie-tca> It looks to be a very nice theme
[19:17] <charlie-tca> well, icon set
[19:18] <charlie-tca> any objections to replacing elementary?
[19:18] <vinnl> Ehm
[19:18] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: I think that faenza has severe usability problems
[19:18] <vinnl> I recall reading on the faenza page that a lot of icons were missing, recently. Is that still the case?
[19:18] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: especially with the small icons
[19:19] <thorwil> hi, let me catch up
[19:19] <TheSheep> charlie-tca: in particular, all the icons have the same outline
[19:19] <charlie-tca> You mean, the squares?
[19:19] <TheSheep> yes
[19:20] <mr_pouit> yeah, for the completeness, I think ochosi is working on it (but he doesn't seem to be here now)
[19:20] <charlie-tca> The colors are great for visibility, though
[19:20] <TheSheep> plus, the icons are different than the default icons for most applications
[19:20] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/Request-7 is the work of j_baer, not the "team". well, and full of problems
[19:20] <charlie-tca> Yesw, they are different
[19:20] <TheSheep> I just spent a minute looking for gimp (I enabled faenza for test)
[19:20] <charlie-tca> thorwil: help?
[19:21] <vinnl> charlie-tca, also, about the spec - what Creative Commons license must submissions adhere to?
[19:21] <vinnl> -NC is quite restrictive
[19:21] <thorwil> charlie-tca: i'm Thorsten Wilms. you will remember that we talked about design and the need for differentiation and a strategy at UDS
[19:21] <charlie-tca> Yup
[19:21] <charlie-tca> I remember. I did not realize that spec was not good.
[19:21] <thorwil> so the problem of that spec is that it is not based on any such thoughts
[19:22] <charlie-tca> should I email you and Saleel for this one?
[19:22] <thorwil> sure
[19:22] <mhall119> vinnl: IIRC, -NC isn't allowed in universe
[19:22] <charlie-tca> Glad you made it here.
[19:22] <thorwil> unless you want to discuss the very definition of the project and the strategy right here :)
[19:22] <vinnl> mhall119, more reason to state that in the spec :)
[19:23] <charlie-tca> Okay, throw the spec page out for now. I will get the artists and get a real one drawn up. If anyone has ideas, we need them.
[19:23] <mr_pouit> I can't see where -nc is written…
[19:23] <thorwil> if CC, ask for plain CC or CC-SA
[19:23] <vinnl> mr_pouit, no, but no specific CC license is specified, which implies -NC is an option
[19:23] <thorwil> NC and ND don't belong
[19:23] <vinnl> Exactly
[19:24] <mr_pouit> yeah ok
[19:24] <vinnl> Ah yeah I meant ND, that's the worst clause :)
[19:24] <knome> 'lo
[19:24] <thorwil> hi knome
[19:24] <charlie-tca> Hey , knome
[19:24] <charlie-tca> We were just discussing possible specs for artwork
[19:25] <knome> mm-hmm
[19:25] <mr_pouit> (well, with -nc you can't even put a screenshot of the desktop in a book/magazine…)
[19:26] <charlie-tca> apparently, I am in a pile of straw when it comes to it. thorwil is going to help draw up specs, I think
[19:26] <vinnl> mr_pouit, I suppose that would fall under Fair Use, which I think most countries have? Still, it'd definitely be undesirable
[19:27] <vinnl> But okay, if a new spec is going to be written, this  can be something to keep in mind, no need to discuss it further I suppose
[19:27] <thorwil> knome: where i have been gently pushing, along with Saleel, to first have a clear definition of the xubuntu project. especially how it differentiates itself from ubuntu and other. why it is worthwhile
[19:27] <thorwil> knome: as these questions will lead to a message to get across via the artwork
[19:28] <knome> yes..
[19:28] <charlie-tca> vinnl: I think we can draw it up to give us the license we need submissions to fall under
[19:29] <charlie-tca> but right now, it seems to be "guess and pray" requests
[19:29] <charlie-tca> knome: thoughts on this?
[19:30] <knome> not really
[19:30] <knome> sounds doable
[19:30] <thorwil> i'v been told that the "lightweight" aspect often makes people think xubuntu would be only for old hardware. so instead, maybe emphasize performance?
[19:30] <charlie-tca> Do we need to have a separate meeting for this discussion to happen, or do it via mailing list/emails. I don't think thorwil and saleel are on the xubuntu lists
[19:31] <thorwil> and it seems xubuntu will be conservative compared to ubuntu
[19:32] <knome> charlie-tca, since there is not artwork team in xubuntu ATM, isn't it you who accepts or declines what thorwil and saleel have drafted?
[19:32] <charlie-tca> I like the emphasize performance part
[19:32] <beardygnome> i agree with thorwil, lightweight tends to give the wrong impression
[19:32] <charlie-tca> I guess it is. but I kind of take everyone's word on it, since I don't know all the in's and out's
[19:33] <thorwil> knome: ideally most of this would come from team members, while i just offer guidance
[19:33] <knome> thorwil, there is no such 'team members'
[19:33] <charlie-tca> knome: we still like to have input on it. You know more about licenses and what the artwork should represent than I do
[19:35] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email
[19:35] <MootBot> ACTION received:  charlie-tca to get with thorwil and Saleel about artwork specs by email
[19:35] <knome> imo if somebody wants his work in xubuntu, it should be no problem to publish the artwork in whatever license you ask for
[19:36] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable
[19:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  login manager, GDM vs ???, a new one would be desirable
[19:36] <mhall119> why?
[19:36] <knome> charlie-tca, there has been talk about LightDM
[19:37] <charlie-tca> why? because we keep getting issues with GDM when they change things in Gnome
[19:37] <mhall119> LightDM uses webkit?
[19:38] <charlie-tca> I have been following the lightDM stuff. Does it use webkit?
[19:38] <highvoltage> yep, you can even try it in your web browser :)
[19:38] <mr_pouit> one of the greeters uses webkit
[19:38] <highvoltage> (well, the greeter, anyway)
[19:38] <mhall119> oh, appears there's a separate -webkit and -gnome versions
[19:38] <charlie-tca> gnome versions are what makes things difficult sometimes.
[19:39] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: what about what is it ? lxdm?
[19:39] <mhall119> how about LXDE's new one?
[19:39] <mhall119> heh
[19:39] <charlie-tca> Wouldn't it make things easier than GDM?
[19:39] <cyberanger> I use SLiM myself
[19:40] <mr_pouit> I don't know, didn't try since a long time. But I trust lightdm to be better written ;]
[19:41] <charlie-tca> hm, it seems like lightdm is not quite ready. Can we get with Robert Ancell on it and see what is happening?
[19:42] <charlie-tca> Who wants to follow that up?
[19:43] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] Find out more information about LightDM
[19:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Find out more information about LightDM
[19:43] <charlie-tca> anything else on this subject?
[19:43] <knome> charlie-tca, maybe consider also asking xfce devs
[19:44] <knome> they could know something about that...
[19:44] <charlie-tca> I like that idea, too
[19:44] <mr_pouit> Robert Ancell sent a mail to xfce4-dev a few weeks ago iirc
[19:44] <charlie-tca> [ACTION] follow up with xfce devs on display managers
[19:44] <MootBot> ACTION received:  follow up with xfce devs on display managers
[19:45] <charlie-tca> I will try to research it, then
[19:45] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Continue working with the new Governance structure
[19:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  Continue working with the new Governance structure
[19:45] <charlie-tca> yes, this is on-going.
[19:46] <charlie-tca> We are going to have to set up a vote of some kind to formalize a project lead so we can set up a governing council
[19:46] <charlie-tca> Does that make sense?
[19:46] <charlie-tca> suggestions for doing that?
[19:46] <vinnl> How are the nominees going to be decided?
[19:47] <knome> charlie-tca, the thread about lightdm @xfce4-dev ml: http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html
[19:47] <charlie-tca> At this point, I am an interim Project Lead. We can ask for monimees through the mailing list again, and give a time frame for submissions, like about two weeks
[19:47] <charlie-tca> Thanks, knome
[19:48] <charlie-tca> [LINK] http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html
[19:48] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://foo-projects.org/pipermail/xfce4-dev/2010-August/028200.html
[19:48] <charlie-tca> two weeks appears to be the accepted time for submissions, doesn't it?
[19:48] <vinnl> I suppose it's long enough
[19:49] <charlie-tca> then we can ask for votes, either in a meeting like this, through the mailing list, throught the community council
[19:50] <charlie-tca> I just think we need to do something
[19:50] <charlie-tca> I also plan on a meeting every two weeks at this time, to keep everyone up to date on what is happening in Xubuntu
[19:51] <charlie-tca> any suggestions on how to select the project lead?
[19:51] <vinnl> Do you think attendance will be high enough with such frequent meetings?
[19:51] <knome> just see if any volunteers step up frist
[19:51] <knome> *first
[19:51] <JanC> BTW: the LightDM -gnome greeter is actually a Gtk greeter
[19:51] <knome> agreed with vinnl - once per two weeks is a bit too much
[19:52] <mhall119> edubuntu does weekly meetings, I'm sure xubuntu can bring in at least as many people
[19:52] <charlie-tca> How high does attendance need to be? If we get the team leads to give updates, that is a good meeting for updating everyone
[19:52] <knome> would have been too much even when we had a more active community
[19:52] <charlie-tca> um, you won't generate interest without creating something
[19:52] <vinnl> mhall119, how many does Edubuntu bring?
[19:52] <vinnl> Agreed
[19:52] <charlie-tca> we have tried without any meetings, and it falls way short
[19:52] <mhall119> vinnl: usuallly only a few
[19:53] <mhall119> but it's good to keep in touch and everyone up to date
[19:53] <vinnl> Yeah zero meetings is too few I suppose :P
[19:53] <charlie-tca> We get about 10 in QA, less in bugsqad meetings.
[19:53] <charlie-tca> Accessibility has what, about 5 or 6 regulars at the meetings?
[19:53] <vinnl> Then I suppose Xubuntu would be able to pull it off as well. Still, that's a lot of meetings during the cycle. Perhaps one in three weeks would be better?
[19:54] <highvoltage> even when there's only 1 or 2 people present at an edubuntu meeting I find it useful for making sure that at least *someone* knows what's been happeneing the last week :)
[19:54] <vinnl> Hmm yeah, sounds reasonable
[19:54] <vinnl> Would be very useful for the project lead at least, I suppose
[19:54] <charlie-tca> I figured two weeks at first, then if we want to, go to monthly. It is easier with regular schedules of 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, etc
[19:55] <vinnl> So if the project lead is willing to be there once every two weeks, I suppose it's fine
[19:55] <mhall119> weekly meetings are easy to remember
[19:55] <charlie-tca> I am thinking of every two weeks, on Thursday, 19:00 UTC
[19:55] <mhall119> no "is this a meeting week or not'
[19:55] <mhall119> if it's wednesday, I know there's an edubuntu meeting
[19:56] <charlie-tca> mhall119: you make a really good point
[19:56] <charlie-tca> I have enough people here, maybe. should we vote?
[19:56] <mhall119> some edubuntu meetings don't last very long, but it's good to have them so regularly
[19:57] <charlie-tca> We could have two votes, I guess. one for weekly and one for two weeks apart. a yes vote is marked by +1, a no vote is -1
[19:57] <charlie-tca> everyone is allowed to vote
[19:58] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] for weekly meeting
[19:58] <MootBot> Please vote on:  for weekly meeting.
[19:58] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:58] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:58] <vinnl> +1
[19:58] <MootBot> +1 received from vinnl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:58] <mhall119> +1
[19:58] <MootBot> +1 received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:58] <mr_pouit> +1
[19:58] <MootBot> +1 received from mr_pouit. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:58] <beardygnome> +0
[19:58] <MootBot> Abstention received from beardygnome. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:58] <charlie-tca> -1
[19:58] <MootBot> -1 received from charlie-tca. 3 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:58] <knome> -1
[19:58] <MootBot> -1 received from knome. 3 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:59] <charlie-tca> Any other votes?
[19:59] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[19:59] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 2 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1
[20:00] <charlie-tca> Now what do I do? should we vote for two weeks too?
[20:00] <beardygnome> yes
[20:00] <knome> vote for one month
[20:00] <charlie-tca> [VOTE] for meetings every two weeks
[20:00] <MootBot> Please vote on:  for meetings every two weeks.
[20:00] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:00] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:00] <charlie-tca> +1
[20:00] <MootBot> +1 received from charlie-tca. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:00] <beardygnome> +1
[20:00] <MootBot> +1 received from beardygnome. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:01] <mr_pouit> +0
[20:01] <MootBot> Abstention received from mr_pouit. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:02] <vinnl> +0
[20:02] <MootBot> Abstention received from vinnl. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:02] <mhall119> +0
[20:02] <MootBot> Abstention received from mhall119. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
[20:02] <charlie-tca> [ENDVOTE]
[20:02] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 2
[20:03] <charlie-tca> I am not sure that did any good. If we have meetings every week, we get more attendance, it looks like.
[20:03] <charlie-tca> Some people will make every other meeting, which is great!
[20:03] <charlie-tca> I think the second vote was pointless. plan on meeting every week
[20:04] <beardygnome> charlie-tca: if you're happy to run the meeting every week then go with every week
[20:04] <charlie-tca> [AGREED] Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC
[20:04] <MootBot> AGREED received:  Xubuntu community meetings will be held every week on Thursday at 19:00 UTC
[20:04] <highvoltage> if weekly meetings doesn't work you can always fall back on not doing them :)
[20:05] <charlie-tca> If I miss a week, someone else should feel free to chair
[20:05] <charlie-tca> And now,
[20:05] <vinnl> I'm not sure if  that's going to happen :P
[20:05] <charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any other business
[20:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[20:06] <charlie-tca> going,
[20:06] <mhall119> is Xubuntu going to automatically benefit from the work being done to reduce the size of the Ubuntu ISO?
[20:06] <charlie-tca> Not necessarily. It depends on what they do
[20:06] <charlie-tca> When they cut gimp, it did not help us
[20:07] <charlie-tca> going,
[20:07] <mhall119> they're dropping perl deps
[20:07] <mhall119> and re-building packages to be smaller
[20:07] <mhall119> optimizing images
[20:07] <mhall119> etc
[20:07] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: that should help, right?
[20:07] <mhall119> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
[20:08] <mr_pouit> yeah, for the ones that are done automatically (png optimization)
[20:08] <charlie-tca> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
[20:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
[20:08] <mr_pouit> (and also removal of packages' changelogs)
[20:09] <charlie-tca> I want to thank all of you for attending. Let's continue next week! :-)
[20:09] <charlie-tca> mhall119: does that work?
[20:09] <mhall119> same day/time?
[20:09] <mhall119> charlie-tca: does what work?
[20:09] <charlie-tca> the answer from mr_pouit
[20:09] <mhall119> oh, yeah, thanks
[20:10] <charlie-tca> Next meeting Thursday 19:00 UTC
[20:10] <charlie-tca> #endmeeting
[20:10] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:10.
[20:10] <mhall119> I'll be bugging you guys a lot more in the next 5 months, for sure
[20:10] <charlie-tca> Works for us
[20:10] <mhall119> should I hang out in #xubuntu or #xubuntu-devel?
[20:10] <vinnl> Thanks for chairing charlie-tca
[20:11] <beardygnome> thankc charlie-tca
[20:11] <charlie-tca> mhall119: #xubuntu-devel
[20:11] <beardygnome> *thanks
[20:11] <mr_pouit> mhall119: -devel if it's for development related questions :P
[20:11] <mhall119> ok, thanks
[20:11] <charlie-tca> You are welcome.