/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/21/#ubuntu-manual.txt

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c7phello all19:51
semioticrobotichey c7p19:53
MuscovyHello.19:53
MuscovyIs the meeting in a few minutes?19:54
MuscovyI can never remember which time of day 12 AM and PM are.19:54
c7pyes i think19:54
c7pif we are 5 people and more i think we can start in ten minutes if there is no denial19:56
ChrisWoollardHello, 9 now19:56
semioticroboticright-o19:56
trijntjeadd one lurker ;)19:57
godbykI'm here too.19:57
c7pnice we are going well :)19:57
ChrisWoollardI almost missed it. I format that our clocks changed a couple of weeks ago19:57
godbykI had scheduled it on my calendar for 2100 UTC for some reason.19:58
dakero/19:59
ChrisWoollardcan somebody post the links to the notes. I want to read in advance19:59
c7plook at these http://typewith.me/c6QnDtVHp6 , http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/zqYcMRpqWX if you hadn't, add your thoughts and we are waiting another 5 mins for others19:59
hannieIs this where the meeting is?20:00
c7pkevin can you chair ?20:00
c7phere hannie20:00
hannieok, hi everybody20:00
godbykHello, Hannie.20:00
godbykc7p: Sure, if you don't want to.20:01
ChrisWoollardhey Hannie20:01
godbykI'll start it in just a moment.20:01
c7pi dont know how these things work so you are the most suitable20:01
c7pok20:01
godbykOkay, we'll see if I can remember how this works. :-)20:03
godbyk#startmeeting20:03
MootBotMeeting started at 14:03. The chair is godbyk.20:03
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]20:03
c7pas it may have passed your mind there are some problem regarding the function of the project20:03
godbyk[TOPIC] State of the Project20:04
MootBotNew Topic:  State of the Project20:04
c7pis there any progress in maverick ?20:04
ChrisWoollardI haven't seen much. Just a couple of bugs20:05
godbykI haven't seen any commit activity lately, either.20:05
c7pwho are the editors ?20:05
semioticroboticit seems to me that things are in a holding pattern, but no one quite know what we're holding for20:05
ChrisWoollardI am one I guess20:06
MuscovyI'm a somewhat inactive editor.20:06
* semioticrobotic raises hand20:06
semioticroboticeditor20:06
MuscovyI've been unable to really find issues lately though.20:06
MuscovyWhich is good news.20:06
c7pok we have to set the roles20:06
c7pwho is doing what ?20:06
semioticroboticI typically stick to the final third of the manual20:06
semioticroboticreading/re-reading when commits have been made, etc.20:07
ChrisWoollardI have been fixing bugs that people logged. + have done abit of proof reading20:07
ChrisWoollardI think I have been about the only one comiting recently20:07
godbykMy role is to maintain the interior book design, write LaTeX code, and help translators through the editing process.20:07
c7pdo we know what should be written or removed ?20:08
semioticroboticfrom my perspective, the final third of the manual is looking pretty good20:08
hannieAre people responsible for certain chapters?20:09
ChrisWoollardI know screenshots are outstanding20:09
semioticroboticyes, save for screenshots20:09
ChrisWoollardI don't think so20:09
c7phow the quickshot server is going ?20:09
semioticrobotichannie: at one time, yes; we had specific individuals assigned as writers and editors of each chapter20:09
ChrisWoollardI know the installation chapter needs to be updated20:09
MuscovyI've been looking mainly at the install section, because if a user hits an issue there, bad things happen.20:09
ChrisWoollardMuscovy: Have you updated it for the new installer?20:10
MuscovyNot entirely.20:10
Muscovy:|20:10
ChrisWoollardI have also been posting builds for people to check.20:10
MuscovyWHere are they?20:11
c7pthis should be done, if you haven't much time probably one editor could help20:11
MuscovyI still have an old one.20:11
ChrisWoollardI will post a link in a mo20:11
ChrisWoollardhttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/382986/ubuntu-manual/UbuntuManual.html20:12
MootBotLINK received:  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/382986/ubuntu-manual/UbuntuManual.html20:12
ChrisWoollardHmm, I am 2 revisions behind.20:12
c7pso Muscovy can you manage the installation section ?20:12
MuscovyI think I can.20:13
ChrisWoollardI'll post a new one in a few mins20:13
hannieIs Revision 71 a finished version of Maverick?20:13
c7pok if you want more help we could probably find one more volunteer20:13
godbykhannie: There isn't a finalized version of Maverick yet.20:13
ChrisWoollardit is a point in time version20:13
MuscovyMy time might be erratic, so another person would be a good idea if we want that chapter "done" within a week.20:14
ChrisWoollardjust so things can be checked20:14
semioticroboticIf someone notifies me that the installation chapter has been updated, I can probably proof it, but wouldn't be able to turn it around in a week20:15
c7pis there anyone who can help Muscovy ?20:15
ChrisWoollardwhen it is updated I will post a new revision20:15
semioticroboticthanks, ChrisWoollard20:15
hannieIs there much changed in the installation part?20:16
semioticroboticfor Maverick, yes, from what I understand20:16
hannieMaverick < Lucid20:16
semioticrobotic(though I am still using the LTS)20:16
ChrisWoollardI think a lot. The whole installation routine was replaced20:16
godbykThe installation is completely different in Maverick.20:16
hannieok20:16
hannieI only upgraded20:17
MuscovyThe Maverick installed has a new UI, and the steps have changed a bit.20:17
semioticroboticyes20:17
hannieSo the screenshots are also different20:17
MuscovyYep.20:17
c7phm we may could appeal some bloggers to help on writing the installation section20:17
ChrisWoollardI have updated the revision to 7320:17
MuscovyThough wouldn't we take new ones anyway because of the theme?20:17
hannieAre there chapters in which hardly anything changed?20:18
hanniee.g. command line20:18
MuscovyA few I think.20:18
MuscovyI doubt Firefox had a revolution, for example.20:18
godbykThough the command-line chapter was merged with another chapter for maverick.20:18
ChrisWoollardI can help with the installation a bit also. Not sure what time i have though20:18
hannieSo those do not need much attention20:18
michael_k4 & 5 I have reviewed and they are OK20:18
ChrisWoollardI think that the around desktop chapter is fairly ok.20:18
c7pnice20:19
MuscovyI would think Shotwell, install, and desktop would need the most attention, since they're important or really different.20:19
ChrisWoollardI did shotwell.20:19
hannieSo only a few capters need special attention20:19
c7pChris and Muscovy if you could work on installation that would be nice, you can set the scedule by your own20:20
ChrisWoollardI know that Ubuntu One and Rhythembox are complete20:20
hanniecommand-line merged with what?20:20
c7pso many months little things have be done so 2-3 weeks more are almost trivial20:20
godbykhannie: with advanced topics or somesuch.20:20
ChrisWoollardAlso The Ubuntu Desktop chapter is complete.20:21
c7pcool20:21
ChrisWoollardExcept screenshots20:21
c7pjenkins and flan was in charge of the whole screenshots stuff (sorry if i have forgotten anyone)20:22
godbykOkay, can we compose a list of chapters that still need to be reviews and the people assigned to them?20:22
semioticrobotichannie: I have completed the merge of the command-line chapter with the "advanced topics" chapter20:22
c7pfor the list http://typewith.me/M4XsjX96MG20:22
hannieDo we have the same number of chapters in Maverick?20:23
c7pprologue isnt the same ?20:23
semioticrobotichannie: No.20:23
semioticroboticthe merge creates one fewer chapter20:24
godbykOkay, if you've agreed to edit a chapter, please add your name to the list: http://typewith.me/M4XsjX96MG20:24
c7plearning more is ok20:24
ChrisWoollardI think I looked over prologue20:24
godbykOr if the chapter has already been edited and is ready, note that.20:25
hannieAs a translator I want to know if chapters that are finished can be translated20:26
c7pmichael_k could you add on the list the proof-read chapters ?20:26
michael_kjust did it20:26
c7pyou would better wait hannie20:26
c7pthanks20:27
semioticroboticokay, things are shaping up20:28
c7pnow there is a clear picture i think20:28
c7pnice guys20:28
godbykAs you're reviewing the chapters, please make a list of any screenshots that should be added or changed.20:28
godbyk(If you want to remove a screenshot, just remove the \screenshot command.)20:28
michael_k???20:28
godbykThat way we can get a list of required screenshots to the Quickshot folks and have them setup Quickshot.20:29
semioticroboticgodbyk: are we leaving some screenshots in place despite the slightly different visual appearance of Maverick?20:29
godbyksemioticrobotic: No, all the existing screenshots will be retaken.20:29
semioticroboticokay, thanks20:29
godbykI mean if a screenshot should be of something different, we need a new description.20:30
semioticroboticright20:31
c7pAlex and Chris if you could communicate with each other that will make things even easier20:31
michael_kfrom where should we remove the \scrennshot command?20:31
semioticroboticbut if the only change to the shot is the theme/buttons, don't make a note?20:31
godbykmichael_k: From the .tex file that you're editing.20:31
godbyksemioticrobotic: Correct.20:31
semioticroboticgodbyk: gotcha, thanks20:31
michael_kgodbyk, I am not edting tex files, just proofreading and reviewing content20:32
godbykmichael_k: In that case, just file a bug.20:32
michael_kgodbyk, OK!20:32
ChrisWoollardThat is good. I will look over any bugs filed.20:33
godbykc7p: Anything else you want to discuss under this item?20:33
c7pwho is in charge of the screenshots20:33
godbykI usually harass flan and jenkins about screenshot/quickshot stuff.20:34
semioticroboticc7p: I think the quickshot team is on that20:34
* semioticrobotic nods20:34
c7pok we will send them a mail20:34
c7pmove on ?20:34
semioticroboticready20:35
c7pis there anything else ?20:35
hannieChapter Troubleshooting has no name20:35
michael_kwhat's wrong with Truobleshooting?20:36
c7pwhat do you mean ?20:36
godbykIt's a short chapter (only 8 pages) if someone wants to sign up as an editor for that chapter.20:36
hanniePerhaps there are no changes to this chapter20:36
semioticroboticI recall looking at Troubleshooting several weeks ago, but it's been too long to remember specifics.  We should review a ChrisWoollard daily build pdf20:36
c7pyes there are no changes in that chapter from what i see, also it has been proof-read20:37
zkriesse_Hey20:37
zkriesse_Meeting I missed?'b20:37
godbykokay.20:37
ChrisWoollardnot so much a daily as a, when things change build.20:37
semioticroboticright :)20:37
godbykSo, next up...20:37
godbyk[TOPIC] Basic functional principles of project20:37
MootBotNew Topic:  Basic functional principles of project20:37
c7pok20:38
c7pas you can see there are some problems in the function of the project20:38
c7pso take a look on http://typewith.me/c6QnDtVHp620:39
c7pthere are listed 7 of the most common problems in teams20:39
c7pwhat do you think affects our project20:39
godbykI think we're experiencing a few of those problems.20:40
semioticroboticyes20:40
hannieThere doesn't necessarily have to be one leader20:41
hannieMore than one could also work20:41
godbykhannie: True. As long as people are filling the required roles.20:41
michael_ka coordinator is neded though20:41
c7pso let's select what do we thing that affect the project so we have a base for the next of the meeting20:41
semioticroboticbut godbyk's suggestion regarding a release coordinator is a good one20:41
hannieTask management20:42
c7pi agree godbyk is doing great and Chris on his role20:42
michael_k+120:42
godbykI'd say we have issues with leadership, participation, and perhaps a bit of procrastination.20:42
semioticroboticI would also note a lack of clearly defined roles20:42
ChrisWoollard+ certain core members of the team seem to never be around.20:43
godbyksemioticrobotic: I agree on the well-defined roles.20:43
c7pyes that also affects, that i think we should clear today20:43
c7por at least most of this subject's part20:43
godbykI think there's been a shift in the core members. Many of them have been absent from the project (and so they aren't really core members any longer).20:43
semioticroboticyes20:43
c7pyes20:43
godbykThe problem is that we need others to step into those roles.20:44
hannieSo there is going to be a reshuffle20:44
semioticroboticfor instance, Jamin Day has recently stepped down as head of editing, but no one has volunteered to coordinate editors20:44
c7pok we need a list of all active core members20:44
godbykA list of active members.20:44
c7phttp://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp20:45
MootBotLINK received:  http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp20:45
c7pfill the list if you are a core member20:45
c7pand also add your role specifically20:45
c7pfor example john (1st chapter) etc20:46
godbyk(be back in just a moment)20:46
c7pok20:47
c7psemioticrobotic, ChrisWoollard are you in commited to any of the chapters of the book ?20:48
semioticroboticc7p: yes20:48
ChrisWoollardyes20:49
c7pwhen the list will be filled we will have a better understanding of the potential of the team20:49
c7pwhich is vital of course for the work to be done and the future of the project20:50
semioticroboticunfortunately, friends, I have to run20:50
godbykOkay.  See you later, semioticrobotic.  Thanks for coming!20:50
semioticroboticbut I will catch up on the remainder of the meeting from notes tomorrow morning20:50
semioticroboticsorry!20:50
semioticrobotictake care, godbyk20:50
c7pcool cya semioticrobotic20:50
c7pgodbyk: can you send a mail to all the editors telling them about this list ?20:51
c7pso we can see what are the empty spaces20:52
ChrisWoollardI do Ubuntu Desktop CHapter.20:52
godbykc7p: You mean the ubuntu-manual-editors mailing list?20:53
hannieAre there no writers present?20:53
c7poh is there this list, i didn't know that20:53
ChrisWoollardAm I on that list?20:54
c7pi guess yes20:54
godbykYeah, it doesn't get used very much at all, though.20:54
MuscovyI didn't know there was an editors list.20:54
michael_kmaybe we sholud start using it then20:54
MuscovyI feel using the main one is more convenient though.20:54
godbykLet me see who's on it these days.20:55
c7pok ty20:55
godbykGenerally we use the main one for most everything.20:55
c7pmain list is fine it think20:55
c7pso what's next20:55
c7pshould we appeal new members (based on the list) ?20:56
godbykThe editors list was just someplace where we could discuss things in a bit more detail (without all the outside chatter).20:56
godbyk[TOPIC] Recruiting20:56
MootBotNew Topic:  Recruiting20:56
godbykOnce we know what roles we need to fill and where we need help, we should start recruiting.20:57
ChrisWoollardI know Ben was supposed to post to the mailing list for recruitment.20:57
c7pyes i think we just have to spread the word20:57
michael_kLOL!!! if we solve this one we will get the FLOSS Nobel20:57
ChrisWoollardI could ask popey to mention recruitment on the uupc if you want?20:58
c7pmichael_k: lol20:58
c7pyes that could be nice20:58
c7pafter the list is completed20:58
godbykBefore we start asking everyone for help, we should have a concise list of tasks that need to be accomplished and roles that need to be taken on.20:59
godbykThat way we have things ready for people to do when they show up asking how they can help.20:59
c7pi agree on that20:59
michael_kand each  of us could also try to remind to people in our frums/blogs/ lists etc20:59
humphreybc-ipadHi guys20:59
c7phello humphreybc-ipad20:59
godbykHey, humphreybc-ipad. I gave you the wrong time yesterday apparently. Sorry about that!20:59
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: I almost missed the meeting myself.20:59
zkriesse_Lol20:59
zkriesse_Iowa20:59
humphreybc-ipadgodbyk: Ah, what time did it start?20:59
thorwilgodbyk: drive-by comment: i will most likely stay available to deal with the titlepage like in the past. good night!21:00
zkriesse_Argh dang iPod spell check21:00
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: An hour ago.21:00
humphreybc-ipadOh21:00
zkriesse_Don't worry humphreybc-ipad I missed it too21:00
humphreybc-ipadRight21:00
humphreybc-ipadWhat'd I miss?21:00
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: We discussed the current state of the maverick edition.21:01
hannieTasks: should there be a representative for translators?21:01
c7phumphreybc-ipad:  http://pastebin.com/bLPkcMGd21:01
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: Folks have signed up to edit chapters: http://typewith.me/M4XsjX96MG21:01
hannieOr is that godbyk's department?21:01
popeyChrisWoollard: we mentioned the manual project last week :)21:02
godbykhannie: Looking at the credits in the manual, jenkins handled creating the .po files.21:02
popeyChrisWoollard: what specifically did you want us to say?21:02
ChrisWoollardNothinhg yet. We are going to recruit new members21:02
popeyok21:03
c7pafter this list is filled http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp21:03
humphreybc-ipadpopey: What did you say last week?21:03
ChrisWoollardwe need to collate a list of tasks first21:03
godbykhannie: I've been working with the translators as they go through the final stages of releasing their translation.21:03
popeythat you suck and you're a mac fanboy21:03
godbykpopey: lol21:03
ChrisWoollardrofl21:03
humphreybc-ipad:)21:03
popeyoh no, thats me21:03
humphreybc-ipadIndeed21:03
ChrisWoollardpopey: Havent you got a mac?21:03
humphreybc-ipadI only own one apple product, I believe you own several ;)21:04
c7pim a mac, im a pc, (geek voice) im linux21:04
michael_kone Linux to rule them all...21:04
ChrisWoollardanyway. I think we have deviated.21:04
c7pyes sorry21:05
michael_ksorry21:05
ChrisWoollardor have we finished?21:05
godbykI was just getting humphreybc-ipad  and others brought up to speed.21:05
popeyChrisWoollard: maybe :)21:05
popeyChrisWoollard: pssst (yes, I have an iphone4, ipod, macbook pro, imac and an ipad on order), but don't tell anyone21:05
godbykWe also discussed some of the problems the team has been experiencing (using c7p's list as a starting point: http://typewith.me/c6QnDtVHp6).21:06
hannieSome people have everything21:06
humphreybc-ipadpopey: You decided to buy an iPad then?21:06
godbykNow we're discussing recruiting.21:06
ChrisWoollardPopey seems to be the biggest Apple Fanboi ever!21:06
popeyhumphreybc-ipad: yup21:06
c7pbad apple on subject guys :P21:06
humphreybc-ipadpopey: Were my tweets convincing?21:07
popeyyes, its all because of you21:07
popeyyou are evil21:07
humphreybc-ipadHahaha21:07
humphreybc-ipadOk so is that it?21:08
godbykSo far.21:08
godbykc7p: Did you have anything else on recruiting?21:08
c7pnope21:09
godbykOkay21:09
godbyk[TOPIC] Translations21:09
MootBotNew Topic:  Translations21:09
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c7pabout maverick or the process in general ?21:10
hannieBefore you start on this I want to say how very, very much help we get from godbyk21:10
godbykc7p: Not sure. I'm going by your list here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/zqYcMRpqWX21:10
hannieWe=translators21:10
c7pok21:11
humphreybc-ipadSo...21:11
godbykhannie: As our token translator, do you have anything you'd like to talk about? :)21:11
c7phow may translators are in here ?21:11
hannieWell, I want to say this:21:11
michael_kI am21:11
hannieI am afraid it is too late for Maverick to be translated in dutch in time21:12
hannieWe will start translating Natty very soon21:13
c7pi think maverick should be available for translation, and every team should plan if it will translate it or not21:13
michael_k+121:13
godbykc7p: I think so, too.21:13
c7pah21:13
hannieIt depends on how big a team is and how much time there is left21:13
godbykWe'll set up every manual so that it may be translated.  We'll leave it up to each translation team to decide which editions they want to translate.21:14
c7pi agree21:14
ChrisWoollard+121:14
humphreybc-ipadThat sounds reasonable21:14
hannieYes, I think too that it is up to the individual teams, but next time (natty)21:14
godbykSo one translation team may decide to only translate the LTS editions. Another team may translate every edition. A third team may translate every other edition. Etc.21:14
hannieI hope we will get more time to translate it21:14
michael_kwill we stick to launchpad or look for a platform more suitable for large documents?21:14
humphreybc-ipadMakes sense, because not all teams are the same size21:14
c7porganise a local translation team and all will go well21:15
humphreybc-ipadmichael_k: Do you know of anything else?21:15
c7pthis should be the start poiont21:15
c7psomething regarding translation of the book in general21:15
hannieI also think it would be wise to announce the completion of a manual version on time through the list21:15
michael_khumphreybc-ipad, not really21:15
c7pthere are some chapters that have little changes21:15
c7pgive me a sec21:15
humphreybc-ipadmichael_k: Yeah i guess that's a problem21:16
godbykLonger-term, I would like to see if we can get some translators and developers together to design and code a better translation system for use with our manual (and other projects, of course).21:17
godbykLaunchpad/Rosetta seems to not be well-suited to our use case.21:17
godbykThere's another project (whose name I've forgotten) that is basically the same as Rosetta.21:17
c7psorry for that21:17
c7pWe can start the translation of some chapters just even before the  release of Ubuntu, let me be more specific. The following chapters' text  is almost independent from UI changes (based on 10.04 e2 manual):21:17
c7pPrologue (4 pages)21:17
c7pLearning more (5 pages)21:17
c7pGlossary (3 pages)21:17
c7pWorking with Ubuntu from page 50 -web browsing- up to page 99 -Taking notes-  (50 pages)21:17
c7pHardware -Bruning Cds- pages 105-108 (4 pgs)21:17
c7pCommand line (8 pages)21:17
c7p74 (of 145 pages with translatable content based), on the previous manual can be translated even before the release of manual !21:17
hannieThat is what I suggested earlier21:18
michael_kgodbyk, i for one would be glad to help21:18
godbykIt seems most of the translation software is designed for small strings (like menu item names and labels in dialog boxes).21:18
michael_k:(21:18
godbykWhen we have larger strings (like our paragraphs), those translation systems become inadequate.21:19
humphreybc-ipadYeah21:19
hannie+121:19
humphreybc-ipadThis all sounds good21:19
humphreybc-ipadc7p is right21:19
hannieWhat about a text editor (open source of course)21:20
c7pwhat i propose is to finish this chapters before the release of the manual and give it away to translations team21:20
godbykI have a number of ideas on how we can improve the translation stuff, but we'll probably need to wait until after the maverick release to start working on it. And it'll require its own team of people, I think.21:20
humphreybc-ipadShould we talk about team structure?21:20
c7pthis could be translated out of the roseta and then at the final stage the only thing that has to be done is to copy n paste the text on launchpad21:21
* humphreybc-ipad is currently making breakfast21:21
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: Sure.  We discussed it a bit earlier, but only really listed the folks who are still around (and attended the meeting).21:21
c7pgodbyk i glad to hear that, let me know if i can help21:21
humphreybc-ipadgodbyk: Hmm.21:21
hannieThe good thing of LP is that translations can be done online21:22
godbykc7p: Sure thing.21:22
humphreybc-ipadI think for the team to work well, we need to have clearly defined sub teams of people working in specific areas, and then managers for each of these groups that talk with release and project managers21:22
humphreybc-ipadYou know, create some distinction21:22
c7phannie:  with google doc or a relevant service it can also be done online21:22
c7phumphreybc-ipad: +121:23
godbykI want to keep the online aspect (if we can get web developers who are good enough to pull it off), but one of the biggest issues is that when we change, say, a comma in the source, it invalidates all the translations.21:23
humphreybc-ipadAlso if we give people roles I guess it makes them feel special which can boost morale?21:23
godbykAnd I think the software should be able to tell the translator, 'Hey, they just added a comma,' so the translator can quickly decide whether they need to retranslate.21:23
c7phumphreybc-ipad: yes21:24
hanniegodbyk, but that is how it works on LP, doesn't it?21:24
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: Here are the roles that people have cast for themselves: http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp21:24
humphreybc-ipadSo why don't we advertise some "job listings" on our website21:24
hannieI mean, everyone sees that you changed the comma21:24
humphreybc-ipadPerhaps in the new website21:24
godbykhannie: Launchpad doesn't tell you what changed in the source -- only that you need to retranslate (for some unknown reason).21:24
hanniegobyk, changes in the source should be sent to LP21:25
godbykhannie: If you look at it carefully, you might notice that the comma was changed, but it's not made clear (as far as I could see, at least).21:25
humphreybc-ipadAdvertising specific positions would help us slot talented people into the right areas straight away, and thry would know their objectives from the job spec21:25
michael_k+121:26
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: That's not a bad idea. We'd just have to define those roles and job duties.21:26
humphreybc-ipadBeing a "translation manager" is probably cooler than simply a "volunteer helper" if you know what I mean21:26
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: And make sure we're not dumping too much on one person/role.  (And be flexible so that if two people want to share a role, they can, etc.)21:26
humphreybc-ipadgodbyk: Sure, we can just treat it like a small company21:26
humphreybc-ipadWithout the money aspect21:26
c7pthat we were discussing before but we need first the list to see the current possitions21:27
humphreybc-ipadMakes life easier21:27
godbykc7p: Shall we work on a list of current positions while we have a few people here?21:27
c7pof course21:27
c7phttp://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp21:28
MootBotLINK received:  http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp21:28
c7pthis list ?21:28
godbykc7p: Yeah, that'll work for a start.21:28
humphreybc-ipadWell let's start with teams21:28
humphreybc-ipadI guess we ned21:28
humphreybc-ipadNeed*21:28
godbyk[TOPIC] Team structure/roles (redux)21:28
MootBotNew Topic:  Team structure/roles (redux)21:28
humphreybc-ipadWeb des21:29
humphreybc-ipadBlah21:29
humphreybc-ipadWeb guys, translators, writers, editors, programmers?21:29
humphreybc-ipadAnd designers21:29
michael_kmy time's up! good(whatever) everyone!21:29
godbykmichael_k: Okay. Thanks for helping out!21:29
ChrisWoollardI think i should pay attention again21:29
hanniebye michael_k21:29
c7pmichael_k: thx for comming, good night21:30
godbykChrisWoollard: yep. otherwise you'll get saddled with the role of 'sanitation engineer' or something.21:30
ChrisWoollardEeewwww21:30
c7pok kevin you talked about a web developer that you need on the translation system ?21:30
godbykc7p: Yeah, I think that if we want the translation system to be web-based we'll need a web designer and one or two really good web developers (who write the backend logic/code).21:33
humphreybc-ipadCould authors and editors be combined into writing staff.21:33
humphreybc-ipad?*21:33
MuscovyPerhaps.21:33
MuscovyThey can be somewhat ambiguous.21:33
godbykI think that an author and an editor have two different skillsets, though.21:33
humphreybc-ipadYeah no I mean21:34
c7pi think the groups editors and writers are confusing, shouldn't be one group ?21:34
humphreybc-ipadThe team is writing staff21:34
humphreybc-ipadAuthor is a role, editor is a role21:34
godbykhumphreybc-ipad: Oh, yeah, you could group them under that heading, yes.21:34
hanniegodbyk, that is a very ambitious plan21:34
humphreybchallo21:34
godbykhannie: Yeah, you haven't even heard the crazy ideas I have yet! :-)21:34
ChrisWoollarddid your ipad blow up?21:35
godbykhannie: When I get some time, I'll try to get some translators in a meeting so I can bounce my ideas off of you and see what you think.21:35
humphreybcChrisWoollard: nah, needed to boot up my computer21:36
c7pgodbyk: nice idea21:36
godbykI'll try to sketch out my ideas a bit more first and pass them around to get some feedback.  It'll probably be a few weeks before I get time for that, though.21:37
ChrisWoollardthat took a while21:37
c7pgodbyk: no problem21:38
godbykFeel free to add any other qualifications/responsibilities that I've missed.21:41
godbykWhat roles do we need filled immediately for the Maverick cycle?21:41
godbykOr are these just for the Natty cycle?21:41
godbyk(Did I lose everyone?)21:42
ChrisWoollardnope21:42
c7pnope we are alive21:42
hannieSorry, I am thinking21:42
ChrisWoollardI am just re-writing my release build page.21:43
c7pfor the maverick cycle i think the screenshot stuff should be handled by some people21:43
godbykJust checking.  (My Internet connection drops randomly and xchat takes a while to realize it.)21:43
hannieSo far it looks very good21:43
ChrisWoollardshould quickshoter be a position?21:43
godbykc7p: We should email flan and jenkins directly about that.  See what their plans are and what time they have to spend on it.21:43
* humphreybc skyping someone at the moment21:44
godbykI'm under the impression that Quickshot is basically ready to go and they're just waiting on us.21:44
c7pok21:44
godbykBut I may be wrong on that.21:44
hannieWill the names of people who are responsible for something  be put on the website?21:45
c7pregarding the maverick release, any other roles ?21:45
c7phannie: i think so, and this should be done21:45
godbykhannie: I like the idea of giving people public credit (and job titles).21:46
godbykc7p: I think that for the maverick cycle, we just need to make sure all the editing gets done.21:46
hannieI mean to say that it works better if you can make contact with a person who is responsible21:46
godbykAfter we've finalized the maverick edition we can put out a call for translators.21:46
godbykTo see if we can drum up some more help for our existing translators.21:47
hannieok21:47
godbykhannie: Ah, yes. That's a good point, too. We should definitely do that.21:47
c7pmany documents have been created and edited today so a list of the is neccessary http://typewith.me/fb4GoOHigY21:47
c7pso what's next ? are we done ?21:48
hannieI am going to log this meeting, and then I will enjoy a glass of good French wine21:48
godbykc7p: I think we're done for this meeting.21:48
godbykc7p: Do you want to write up some minutes to post to the list (along with links to your pads)?21:48
c7pso do i21:48
ChrisWoollardalso place the minutes on the wiki21:49
godbyk#endmeeting21:49
MootBotMeeting finished at 15:49.21:49
c7pyou are free to write what ever you want, as everyone21:49
hannie22:49 Thanks guys, see you21:50
godbykSee you later, hannie.21:50
c7pthis meeting exceeded my expectations, very reconstructive thank you all for your response21:50
godbykc7p: Thanks for pulling the meeting together.21:50
c7pwe are heading on the right way21:50
ChrisWoollardit was a good meeting21:50
ChrisWoollardit feels like it.21:51
godbykHopefully we'll get maverick released soon and we can regroup and start afresh on natty.21:51
c7pgodbyk: no problem, someone had to initiate this meeting21:51
godbykI'll be gone the later part of this week due to holiday (Thanksgiving). But I'll take a printout of the current manual with me and mark up glossary entries and index entries.21:51
c7pgodbyk is working always and everywhere :P21:52
godbykHeh. If it's not this, it's something else.  :)21:53
c7pChrisWoollard, Muscovy: i hope you get in contact with each other for the editing21:53
ChrisWoollard:)21:54
godbykHey, ChrisWoollard, what's the state of our bugs?  Do we have many?21:54
ChrisWoollardthere are 2 new ones that I haven't touched yet21:55
godbykPootle! That's the translation software I couldn't remember the name of earlier: http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index21:55
godbyk(Sorry for the interjection.)21:55
ChrisWoollardI think most are fixed. the only open ones are the generic ones for updating chapters.21:55
godbykChrisWoollard: Okay, cool.21:55
c7pgodbyk: you had recommended me before some months a latex book "Latex Companion" for a friend of mine,who are the authors of the book ?21:56
godbykTo make it really easy for people to flag bugs and proofread the manual, we might look at http://a.nnotate.com/.21:57
godbykc7p: Ah, yes. Just a sec and I'll grab the book.21:57
godbykc7p: Frank Mittelbach and Michel Goossens are the primary authors21:57
godbykISBN 0-201-36299-6 for the edition I have.21:58
c7pthank you very much for this21:58
godbykNo problem.21:58
godbykThere may also be a Greek TUG (TeX Users Group) that could be helpful.21:58
ChrisWoollardOk, don't do a generic search for latex in amazon21:59
godbykc7p: http://www.eutypon.gr/21:59
ChrisWoollardat least not if you want a LaTex book21:59
godbykChrisWoollard: lol!21:59
c7pthx22:01
ChrisWoollarddo you know what http://www.amazon.co.uk/TeX-Live-Lambert-M-Surhone/dp/6132124101/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1290376861&sr=1-222:01
godbykNo problem. I'm always happy to help get others hooked on TeX. :)22:01
ChrisWoollardis like?22:01
godbykChrisWoollard: No idea.22:02
godbykChrisWoollard: The front cover says something about wikipedia articles, though.22:02
ChrisWoollardOh, That may not be great then22:03
godbykChrisWoollard: This is the book I recommended to c7p: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Latex-Companion-Frank-Mittelbach/dp/0201362996/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1290377007&sr=1-122:03
godbykIt covers LaTeX and a whole tons of packages.22:04
godbykMost of the package documentation is freely available, but it's nice to have it in a book where it's organized.22:04
ChrisWoollardi saw that. I just wondered about a book that was more up-to-date.22:04
godbyk(You can't really find/read the pkg docs if you don't know the name of the pkg you're interested in, for instance.)22:04
ChrisWoollardIs that in PDF?22:05
godbykI think they're working on a third edition, but I have no idea when it's due out.22:05
godbykYou can get the documentation for a particular package in PDF if you know the name of the package.22:05
godbyk(See ctan.org.)22:05
ChrisWoollardok, thanks22:06
godbykThe LaTeX Companion is handy if you know you want to, say, format the table of contents, but don't know which package will help you do that.22:06
ChrisWoollardI am going to bed now. laters22:06
godbyk'kay.  See ya later, ChrisWoollard.22:06
ChrisWoollardthanks for the help.22:06
godbykThanks for coming.22:06
ChrisWoollardearly night for a change22:06
c7pgodbyk: on the "Core members of the project" http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp22:16
c7pshould i add a section regarding what the reader may want to become ?22:16
c7por a new document is most suitable ?22:16
godbykc7p: I'm not sure I understand the question.22:18
c7psorry22:19
c7pim writting about the meeting for the mailing list22:19
c7pand telling them about what we talked etc22:19
godbykokay22:20
c7pand i think we should give some people the chance to add if the want to participate in the project22:20
godbykuh oh. did typewith.me just go offline?22:20
c7pfor example to become an editor, etc22:20
godbykthat's a good idea.22:20
c7pnow it's ok i think22:21
godbykthere we go22:21
godbykInstead of 'core members' you might call it 'active members'.22:22
c7pok22:22
c7psee at the buttom of the page22:22
c7pi want to become ... blah blah22:23
godbykInstead of adding their name to the list, it'd be better if they email the mailing list instead.22:23
godbyk(Since we don't get notified when someone changes the pad, we may never notice.)22:23
c7pok22:23
godbykHey, daker.22:24
dakergodbyk, yep22:24
nisshhsorry i missed the meeting last night guys22:26
nisshhi was sleeping22:27
godbyknisshh: No worries. You can read the logs.  c7p is writing up some minutes now.22:27
nisshhok, cool22:29
c7pi 've sent it22:30
nisshhyeah22:30
nisshhgodbyk, has ben actually stepped down? or he just thinking about it?22:31
c7pgodbyk: whenever you want send mail to flan or jenkins about the screenshots, there is no hurry22:31
nisshhoh he is in here :)22:31
godbyknisshh: I think he's just thinking about it at the moment.22:31
nisshhfair enough22:31
godbykc7p: I'll do it now so I don't forget.22:31
c7pok ty22:31
humphreybchey daker22:32
humphreybcwebsite feedback is very much on my to do list22:32
c7pok guys g2g bedtime22:32
godbykSee you later, c7p.22:33
c7psee you, good night/evening/moring22:33
dakerhumphreybc, YEAH22:34
godbykdaker: keep pestering humphreybc about it. :-)22:37
dakergodbyk, i don't have to :)22:38

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