=== zkriesse__ is now known as zkriesse === bilalakhtar is now known as bilal_ === bilal_ is now known as bilalakhtar [19:51] hello all [19:53] hey c7p [19:53] Hello. [19:54] Is the meeting in a few minutes? [19:54] I can never remember which time of day 12 AM and PM are. [19:54] yes i think [19:56] if we are 5 people and more i think we can start in ten minutes if there is no denial [19:56] Hello, 9 now [19:56] right-o [19:57] add one lurker ;) [19:57] I'm here too. [19:57] nice we are going well :) [19:57] I almost missed it. I format that our clocks changed a couple of weeks ago [19:58] I had scheduled it on my calendar for 2100 UTC for some reason. [19:59] o/ [19:59] can somebody post the links to the notes. I want to read in advance [19:59] look at these http://typewith.me/c6QnDtVHp6 , http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/zqYcMRpqWX if you hadn't, add your thoughts and we are waiting another 5 mins for others [20:00] Is this where the meeting is? [20:00] kevin can you chair ? [20:00] here hannie [20:00] ok, hi everybody [20:00] Hello, Hannie. [20:01] c7p: Sure, if you don't want to. [20:01] hey Hannie [20:01] I'll start it in just a moment. [20:01] i dont know how these things work so you are the most suitable [20:01] ok [20:03] Okay, we'll see if I can remember how this works. :-) [20:03] #startmeeting [20:03] Meeting started at 14:03. The chair is godbyk. [20:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [20:03] as it may have passed your mind there are some problem regarding the function of the project [20:04] [TOPIC] State of the Project [20:04] New Topic: State of the Project [20:04] is there any progress in maverick ? [20:05] I haven't seen much. Just a couple of bugs [20:05] I haven't seen any commit activity lately, either. [20:05] who are the editors ? [20:05] it seems to me that things are in a holding pattern, but no one quite know what we're holding for [20:06] I am one I guess [20:06] I'm a somewhat inactive editor. [20:06] * semioticrobotic raises hand [20:06] editor [20:06] I've been unable to really find issues lately though. [20:06] Which is good news. [20:06] ok we have to set the roles [20:06] who is doing what ? [20:06] I typically stick to the final third of the manual [20:07] reading/re-reading when commits have been made, etc. [20:07] I have been fixing bugs that people logged. + have done abit of proof reading [20:07] I think I have been about the only one comiting recently [20:07] My role is to maintain the interior book design, write LaTeX code, and help translators through the editing process. [20:08] do we know what should be written or removed ? [20:08] from my perspective, the final third of the manual is looking pretty good [20:09] Are people responsible for certain chapters? [20:09] I know screenshots are outstanding [20:09] yes, save for screenshots [20:09] I don't think so [20:09] how the quickshot server is going ? [20:09] hannie: at one time, yes; we had specific individuals assigned as writers and editors of each chapter [20:09] I know the installation chapter needs to be updated [20:09] I've been looking mainly at the install section, because if a user hits an issue there, bad things happen. [20:10] Muscovy: Have you updated it for the new installer? [20:10] Not entirely. [20:10] :| [20:10] I have also been posting builds for people to check. [20:11] WHere are they? [20:11] this should be done, if you haven't much time probably one editor could help [20:11] I still have an old one. [20:11] I will post a link in a mo [20:12] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/382986/ubuntu-manual/UbuntuManual.html [20:12] LINK received: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/382986/ubuntu-manual/UbuntuManual.html [20:12] Hmm, I am 2 revisions behind. [20:12] so Muscovy can you manage the installation section ? [20:13] I think I can. [20:13] I'll post a new one in a few mins [20:13] Is Revision 71 a finished version of Maverick? [20:13] ok if you want more help we could probably find one more volunteer [20:13] hannie: There isn't a finalized version of Maverick yet. [20:13] it is a point in time version [20:14] My time might be erratic, so another person would be a good idea if we want that chapter "done" within a week. [20:14] just so things can be checked [20:15] If someone notifies me that the installation chapter has been updated, I can probably proof it, but wouldn't be able to turn it around in a week [20:15] is there anyone who can help Muscovy ? [20:15] when it is updated I will post a new revision [20:15] thanks, ChrisWoollard [20:16] Is there much changed in the installation part? [20:16] for Maverick, yes, from what I understand [20:16] Maverick < Lucid [20:16] (though I am still using the LTS) [20:16] I think a lot. The whole installation routine was replaced [20:16] The installation is completely different in Maverick. [20:16] ok [20:17] I only upgraded [20:17] The Maverick installed has a new UI, and the steps have changed a bit. [20:17] yes [20:17] So the screenshots are also different [20:17] Yep. [20:17] hm we may could appeal some bloggers to help on writing the installation section [20:17] I have updated the revision to 73 [20:17] Though wouldn't we take new ones anyway because of the theme? [20:18] Are there chapters in which hardly anything changed? [20:18] e.g. command line [20:18] A few I think. [20:18] I doubt Firefox had a revolution, for example. [20:18] Though the command-line chapter was merged with another chapter for maverick. [20:18] I can help with the installation a bit also. Not sure what time i have though [20:18] So those do not need much attention [20:18] 4 & 5 I have reviewed and they are OK [20:18] I think that the around desktop chapter is fairly ok. [20:19] nice [20:19] I would think Shotwell, install, and desktop would need the most attention, since they're important or really different. [20:19] I did shotwell. [20:19] So only a few capters need special attention [20:20] Chris and Muscovy if you could work on installation that would be nice, you can set the scedule by your own [20:20] I know that Ubuntu One and Rhythembox are complete [20:20] command-line merged with what? [20:20] so many months little things have be done so 2-3 weeks more are almost trivial [20:20] hannie: with advanced topics or somesuch. [20:21] Also The Ubuntu Desktop chapter is complete. [20:21] cool [20:21] Except screenshots [20:22] jenkins and flan was in charge of the whole screenshots stuff (sorry if i have forgotten anyone) [20:22] Okay, can we compose a list of chapters that still need to be reviews and the people assigned to them? [20:22] hannie: I have completed the merge of the command-line chapter with the "advanced topics" chapter [20:22] for the list http://typewith.me/M4XsjX96MG [20:23] Do we have the same number of chapters in Maverick? [20:23] prologue isnt the same ? [20:23] hannie: No. [20:24] the merge creates one fewer chapter [20:24] Okay, if you've agreed to edit a chapter, please add your name to the list: http://typewith.me/M4XsjX96MG [20:24] learning more is ok [20:24] I think I looked over prologue [20:25] Or if the chapter has already been edited and is ready, note that. [20:26] As a translator I want to know if chapters that are finished can be translated [20:26] michael_k could you add on the list the proof-read chapters ? [20:26] just did it [20:26] you would better wait hannie [20:27] thanks [20:28] okay, things are shaping up [20:28] now there is a clear picture i think [20:28] nice guys [20:28] As you're reviewing the chapters, please make a list of any screenshots that should be added or changed. [20:28] (If you want to remove a screenshot, just remove the \screenshot command.) [20:28] ??? [20:29] That way we can get a list of required screenshots to the Quickshot folks and have them setup Quickshot. [20:29] godbyk: are we leaving some screenshots in place despite the slightly different visual appearance of Maverick? [20:29] semioticrobotic: No, all the existing screenshots will be retaken. [20:29] okay, thanks [20:30] I mean if a screenshot should be of something different, we need a new description. [20:31] right [20:31] Alex and Chris if you could communicate with each other that will make things even easier [20:31] from where should we remove the \scrennshot command? [20:31] but if the only change to the shot is the theme/buttons, don't make a note? [20:31] michael_k: From the .tex file that you're editing. [20:31] semioticrobotic: Correct. [20:31] godbyk: gotcha, thanks [20:32] godbyk, I am not edting tex files, just proofreading and reviewing content [20:32] michael_k: In that case, just file a bug. [20:32] godbyk, OK! [20:33] That is good. I will look over any bugs filed. [20:33] c7p: Anything else you want to discuss under this item? [20:33] who is in charge of the screenshots [20:34] I usually harass flan and jenkins about screenshot/quickshot stuff. [20:34] c7p: I think the quickshot team is on that [20:34] * semioticrobotic nods [20:34] ok we will send them a mail [20:34] move on ? [20:35] ready [20:35] is there anything else ? [20:35] Chapter Troubleshooting has no name [20:36] what's wrong with Truobleshooting? [20:36] what do you mean ? [20:36] It's a short chapter (only 8 pages) if someone wants to sign up as an editor for that chapter. [20:36] Perhaps there are no changes to this chapter [20:36] I recall looking at Troubleshooting several weeks ago, but it's been too long to remember specifics. We should review a ChrisWoollard daily build pdf [20:37] yes there are no changes in that chapter from what i see, also it has been proof-read [20:37] Hey [20:37] Meeting I missed?'b [20:37] okay. [20:37] not so much a daily as a, when things change build. [20:37] right :) [20:37] So, next up... [20:37] [TOPIC] Basic functional principles of project [20:37] New Topic: Basic functional principles of project [20:38] ok [20:38] as you can see there are some problems in the function of the project [20:39] so take a look on http://typewith.me/c6QnDtVHp6 [20:39] there are listed 7 of the most common problems in teams [20:39] what do you think affects our project [20:40] I think we're experiencing a few of those problems. [20:40] yes [20:41] There doesn't necessarily have to be one leader [20:41] More than one could also work [20:41] hannie: True. As long as people are filling the required roles. [20:41] a coordinator is neded though [20:41] so let's select what do we thing that affect the project so we have a base for the next of the meeting [20:41] but godbyk's suggestion regarding a release coordinator is a good one [20:42] Task management [20:42] i agree godbyk is doing great and Chris on his role [20:42] +1 [20:42] I'd say we have issues with leadership, participation, and perhaps a bit of procrastination. [20:42] I would also note a lack of clearly defined roles [20:43] + certain core members of the team seem to never be around. [20:43] semioticrobotic: I agree on the well-defined roles. [20:43] yes that also affects, that i think we should clear today [20:43] or at least most of this subject's part [20:43] I think there's been a shift in the core members. Many of them have been absent from the project (and so they aren't really core members any longer). [20:43] yes [20:43] yes [20:44] The problem is that we need others to step into those roles. [20:44] So there is going to be a reshuffle [20:44] for instance, Jamin Day has recently stepped down as head of editing, but no one has volunteered to coordinate editors [20:44] ok we need a list of all active core members [20:44] A list of active members. [20:45] http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp [20:45] LINK received: http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp [20:45] fill the list if you are a core member [20:45] and also add your role specifically [20:46] for example john (1st chapter) etc [20:46] (be back in just a moment) [20:47] ok [20:48] semioticrobotic, ChrisWoollard are you in commited to any of the chapters of the book ? [20:48] c7p: yes [20:49] yes [20:49] when the list will be filled we will have a better understanding of the potential of the team [20:50] which is vital of course for the work to be done and the future of the project [20:50] unfortunately, friends, I have to run [20:50] Okay. See you later, semioticrobotic. Thanks for coming! [20:50] but I will catch up on the remainder of the meeting from notes tomorrow morning [20:50] sorry! [20:50] take care, godbyk [20:50] cool cya semioticrobotic [20:51] godbyk: can you send a mail to all the editors telling them about this list ? [20:52] so we can see what are the empty spaces [20:52] I do Ubuntu Desktop CHapter. [20:53] c7p: You mean the ubuntu-manual-editors mailing list? [20:53] Are there no writers present? [20:53] oh is there this list, i didn't know that [20:54] Am I on that list? [20:54] i guess yes [20:54] Yeah, it doesn't get used very much at all, though. [20:54] I didn't know there was an editors list. [20:54] maybe we sholud start using it then [20:54] I feel using the main one is more convenient though. [20:55] Let me see who's on it these days. [20:55] ok ty [20:55] Generally we use the main one for most everything. [20:55] main list is fine it think [20:55] so what's next [20:56] should we appeal new members (based on the list) ? [20:56] The editors list was just someplace where we could discuss things in a bit more detail (without all the outside chatter). [20:56] [TOPIC] Recruiting [20:56] New Topic: Recruiting [20:57] Once we know what roles we need to fill and where we need help, we should start recruiting. [20:57] I know Ben was supposed to post to the mailing list for recruitment. [20:57] yes i think we just have to spread the word [20:57] LOL!!! if we solve this one we will get the FLOSS Nobel [20:58] I could ask popey to mention recruitment on the uupc if you want? [20:58] michael_k: lol [20:58] yes that could be nice [20:58] after the list is completed [20:59] Before we start asking everyone for help, we should have a concise list of tasks that need to be accomplished and roles that need to be taken on. [20:59] That way we have things ready for people to do when they show up asking how they can help. [20:59] i agree on that [20:59] and each of us could also try to remind to people in our frums/blogs/ lists etc [20:59] Hi guys [20:59] hello humphreybc-ipad [20:59] Hey, humphreybc-ipad. I gave you the wrong time yesterday apparently. Sorry about that! [20:59] humphreybc-ipad: I almost missed the meeting myself. [20:59] Lol [20:59] Iowa [20:59] godbyk: Ah, what time did it start? [21:00] godbyk: drive-by comment: i will most likely stay available to deal with the titlepage like in the past. good night! [21:00] Argh dang iPod spell check [21:00] humphreybc-ipad: An hour ago. [21:00] Oh [21:00] Don't worry humphreybc-ipad I missed it too [21:00] Right [21:00] What'd I miss? [21:01] humphreybc-ipad: We discussed the current state of the maverick edition. [21:01] Tasks: should there be a representative for translators? [21:01] humphreybc-ipad: http://pastebin.com/bLPkcMGd [21:01] humphreybc-ipad: Folks have signed up to edit chapters: http://typewith.me/M4XsjX96MG [21:01] Or is that godbyk's department? [21:02] ChrisWoollard: we mentioned the manual project last week :) [21:02] hannie: Looking at the credits in the manual, jenkins handled creating the .po files. [21:02] ChrisWoollard: what specifically did you want us to say? [21:02] Nothinhg yet. We are going to recruit new members [21:03] ok [21:03] after this list is filled http://typewith.me/dV3ZKFh1fp [21:03] popey: What did you say last week? [21:03] we need to collate a list of tasks first [21:03] hannie: I've been working with the translators as they go through the final stages of releasing their translation. [21:03] that you suck and you're a mac fanboy [21:03] popey: lol [21:03] rofl [21:03] :) [21:03] oh no, thats me [21:03] Indeed [21:03] popey: Havent you got a mac? [21:04] I only own one apple product, I believe you own several ;) [21:04] im a mac, im a pc, (geek voice) im linux [21:04] one Linux to rule them all... [21:04] anyway. I think we have deviated. [21:05] yes sorry [21:05] sorry [21:05] or have we finished? [21:05] I was just getting humphreybc-ipad and others brought up to speed. [21:05] ChrisWoollard: maybe :) [21:05] ChrisWoollard: pssst (yes, I have an iphone4, ipod, macbook pro, imac and an ipad on order), but don't tell anyone [21:06] We also discussed some of the problems the team has been experiencing (using c7p's list as a starting point: http://typewith.me/c6QnDtVHp6). [21:06] Some people have everything [21:06] popey: You decided to buy an iPad then? [21:06] Now we're discussing recruiting. [21:06] Popey seems to be the biggest Apple Fanboi ever! [21:06] humphreybc-ipad: yup [21:06] bad apple on subject guys :P [21:07] popey: Were my tweets convincing? [21:07] yes, its all because of you [21:07] you are evil [21:07] Hahaha [21:08] Ok so is that it? [21:08] So far. [21:08] c7p: Did you have anything else on recruiting? [21:09] nope [21:09] Okay [21:09] [TOPIC] Translations [21:09] New Topic: Translations === zkriesse_ is now known as zkriesse [21:10] about maverick or the process in general ? [21:10] Before you start on this I want to say how very, very much help we get from godbyk [21:10] c7p: Not sure. I'm going by your list here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/zqYcMRpqWX [21:10] We=translators [21:11] ok [21:11] So... [21:11] hannie: As our token translator, do you have anything you'd like to talk about? :) [21:11] how may translators are in here ? [21:11] Well, I want to say this: [21:11] I am [21:12] I am afraid it is too late for Maverick to be translated in dutch in time [21:13] We will start translating Natty very soon [21:13] i think maverick should be available for translation, and every team should plan if it will translate it or not [21:13] +1 [21:13] c7p: I think so, too. [21:13] ah [21:13] It depends on how big a team is and how much time there is left [21:14] We'll set up every manual so that it may be translated. We'll leave it up to each translation team to decide which editions they want to translate. [21:14] i agree [21:14] +1 [21:14] That sounds reasonable [21:14] Yes, I think too that it is up to the individual teams, but next time (natty) [21:14] So one translation team may decide to only translate the LTS editions. Another team may translate every edition. A third team may translate every other edition. Etc. [21:14] I hope we will get more time to translate it [21:14] will we stick to launchpad or look for a platform more suitable for large documents? [21:14] Makes sense, because not all teams are the same size [21:15] organise a local translation team and all will go well [21:15] michael_k: Do you know of anything else? [21:15] this should be the start poiont [21:15] something regarding translation of the book in general [21:15] I also think it would be wise to announce the completion of a manual version on time through the list [21:15] humphreybc-ipad, not really [21:15] there are some chapters that have little changes [21:15] give me a sec [21:16] michael_k: Yeah i guess that's a problem [21:17] Longer-term, I would like to see if we can get some translators and developers together to design and code a better translation system for use with our manual (and other projects, of course). [21:17] Launchpad/Rosetta seems to not be well-suited to our use case. [21:17] There's another project (whose name I've forgotten) that is basically the same as Rosetta. [21:17] sorry for that [21:17] We can start the translation of some chapters just even before the release of Ubuntu, let me be more specific. The following chapters' text is almost independent from UI changes (based on 10.04 e2 manual): [21:17] Prologue (4 pages) [21:17] Learning more (5 pages) [21:17] Glossary (3 pages) [21:17] Working with Ubuntu from page 50 -web browsing- up to page 99 -Taking notes- (50 pages) [21:17] Hardware -Bruning Cds- pages 105-108 (4 pgs) [21:17] Command line (8 pages) [21:17] 74 (of 145 pages with translatable content based), on the previous manual can be translated even before the release of manual ! [21:18] That is what I suggested earlier [21:18] godbyk, i for one would be glad to help [21:18] It seems most of the translation software is designed for small strings (like menu item names and labels in dialog boxes). [21:18] :( [21:19] When we have larger strings (like our paragraphs), those translation systems become inadequate. [21:19] Yeah [21:19] +1 [21:19] This all sounds good [21:19] c7p is right [21:20] What about a text editor (open source of course) [21:20] what i propose is to finish this chapters before the release of the manual and give it away to translations team [21:20] I have a number of ideas on how we can improve the translation stuff, but we'll probably need to wait until after the maverick release to start working on it. And it'll require its own team of people, I think. [21:20] Should we talk about team structure? [21:21] this could be translated out of the roseta and then at the final stage the only thing that has to be done is to copy n paste the text on launchpad [21:21] * humphreybc-ipad is currently making breakfast [21:21] humphreybc-ipad: Sure. We discussed it a bit earlier, but only really listed the folks who are still around (and attended the meeting). [21:21] godbyk i glad to hear that, let me know if i can help [21:21] godbyk: Hmm. [21:22] The good thing of LP is that translations can be done online [21:22] c7p: Sure thing. [21:22] I think for the team to work well, we need to have clearly defined sub teams of people working in specific areas, and then managers for each of these groups that talk with release and project managers [21:22] You know, create some distinction [21:22] hannie: with google doc or a relevant service it can also be done online [21:23] humphreybc-ipad: +1 [21:23] I want to keep the online aspect (if we can get web developers who are good enough to pull it off), but one of the biggest issues is that when we change, say, a comma in the source, it invalidates all the translations. [21:23] Also if we give people roles I guess it makes them feel special which can boost morale? [21:23] And I think the software should be able to tell the translator, 'Hey, they just added a comma,' so the translator can quickly decide whether they need to retranslate. [21:24]