[00:58] Evenin' all [00:59] Quick(ish!) question... if you currently had 3 x 1.5TB disks in a RAID 10, and has another matching disk spare... would you a) keep it as a hot-spare, or b) migrate your data onto other disks and re-use the existing three and the new one, in a new 4-disk RAID10? [01:03] how are you doing RAID10 with 3 disks? [01:03] mdraid [01:04] and far too [01:04] no, I mean how do you get 10 with 3 disks - 10 is normally mirror+stripe, I don't see how to do that with 3 [01:05] Yeah, it's using softraid: [01:05] cat /proc/mdstat [01:05] Personalities : [raid10] [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid1] [raid6] [raid5] [raid4] [01:05] md2 : active raid10 sdd2[2] sdb2[0] sdc2[1] [01:05] 2197414656 blocks 256K chunks 2 far-copies [3/3] [UUU] [01:06] * penguin42 still doesn't get what md actually does when you ask it for a raid10 on 3 discs [01:06] "normal" RAID10, yes, would require 4 disks but, mdraid has a non-standard implementation [01:07] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_RAID_levels#Linux_MD_RAID_10 [01:08] I was hoping to be able to add the fourth disk to it, and it would sort itself out but, this is still not implemented... for understandable reasons as well! [01:09] well, I didn't know it could do that [01:10] I'd add a 4th drive as a hot spare [01:10] mind you, it's all swings and roundabouts [01:11] whenever I want to change mine, I find it hard to find somewhere to move teh data while I rebuild everything :/ [01:12] Yup, and I didn't realise when I build the array, that I couldn't grow it either :/ [01:12] I've got the 4 x 1.5TB disks but, "only" has 1.3TB of data, and have an assortment of other disks to hand... a couple of 1TB SATAs, and a rake of PATA's [01:13] so it sounds like you are better kitted out than me :) [01:14] The disadvantage I have, is that this box is a server, and has multiple domain name MX records pointed at it... I could do without the downtime [01:14] It it though, purely personal, so I could direct my mail to a gmail account and deal with it later of course [01:15] The missus would be displeased if I accidentally read one of the email detailing my xmas presents! :D [01:15] you not got a spare machine to swap in? [01:15] Only other machines these days are laptops/netbooks [01:16] looked early at a NAS box but, wasn't overly keen on them [01:16] my main fileserver is a NAS now [01:16] Might have to export my data to a single disk, then sort the OS first and look at data when the time comes [01:17] or you could be lazy and just not do anything... if everything is working ;) [01:18] but that is boring, so don't listen to me [01:18] There is that. The existing LVMs df-h --total reads: "total 1.7T 1.3T 351G 79%" [01:18] I've 300GB left unallocated on the RAID [01:19] Just a bit miffed having paid £65 for another disk that I can't easily play with... [01:19] yeh [01:20] I'm sure I've got a 1TB SATA disk sat unused in my hd streamer box [01:21] The other 1TB disk failed (this was my old RAID0 job) [01:21] I'm on RAID 0 now :/ [01:21] which itself is not a bad thing [01:22] main problem is I have run out of space on my servers, so I have data stored on it :/ [01:22] I moved from RAID0 (two disks) to RAID10 (three disks) [01:22] You know the risks with RAID0 though [01:22] yeh [01:23] tbh, I never run RAID on my fileserver here [01:23] if I was to run raid, it would be mirroring... but I choose to use the extra disk as a backup medium because uptime is not important to me [01:24] The RAID is just for uptime... I've got automated backups of essential data but, I'd like to keep the likes of AV online too [01:25] I've got 2 x RAID10's, one for /boot, and the other is the remainder of the disks, which I make use of LVM2 over [01:25] can you not remove the 3rd disk to be left with striping, then add them both after? [01:25] Pretty non-standard [01:25] to have true RAID 10 [01:26] Nope... as it's not RAID-1 over RAID-0 in the true sense... it's the funky mdraid-10 implementation [01:26] ah [01:26] :) [01:26] At the moment, I'm thinking I'd best leave it be, and keep the new drive as a hot-swap [01:26] that is certainly easiest [01:27] I'm getting average reads over 300MB/s anyway [01:27] They're Seagate 7200.11's [01:27] I need more SATA ports! [01:27] :) [01:27] that was my next question [01:27] Got 4 on the mobo, and 2 x 2 PATAs [01:27] "any spare sata ports?" [01:28] :D [01:28] Got one PATA device, and that's my DVDRW [01:28] Best hope I don't need more space soon then! :) [01:28] who wants to play help the Azelphur build the aquarium to house his new PC? :D [01:28] I would do if VirtualBox x64 worked for me [01:28] you don't sound as greedy as some here [01:29] speak of the devil, Azelphur [01:29] ;/ [01:29] you spoke of me? :D [01:29] "as greedy as some here" [01:29] This box is up 24/7 365 anyway... unless a new kernel needs a reboot [01:29] I'm running 10,04 on that box [01:30] haha [01:30] 10,04 to me is like new :/ [01:30] Got 10.10 on my netbook... missus still has 10.04 on her laptop [01:31] so, I'm building the motherboard tray out of acrylic which will be cool [01:31] I'm sorta pondering the aquarium problem, Acrylic won't really be strong enough for it [01:31] Azelphur: why? [01:31] Fish? [01:31] hamitron: because acrylic is cheap and lightweight and as transparent as glass? [01:32] hamitron: did you not hear the whole submerged computer plan? [01:32] I keep reptiles myself... not a good mix... heat for them, cool for the PC [01:32] haha [01:32] I want to do mineral oil submersion [01:32] I just don't see why acrylic would not be strong enough [01:32] hamitron: for an aquarium with 5 gallons of mineral oil in it? [01:32] Depends upon the volume of liquid maybe? [01:32] and I can only find 3mm acrylic [01:33] acrylic is pretty bendy [01:33] gallons... millimeters? Stick to imperial or metric ;) [01:33] virmin: google 5 gallons in for your preferred unit :) [01:33] you could build a metal frame [01:33] (he says pouring a pint of vodka, and ginger ale) [01:34] hamitron: nah, that wouldn't look too cool [01:34] but I reckon 3mm is thick enough if built correctly [01:34] virmin: 40 pints lol [01:34] thanks Azelphur, I already knew that but... keeping lizards, it's not so much overall volume that matters but, overall dimensions :) [01:34] hehe [01:34] ;) [01:34] hamitron: I dunno, I have a sheet of 3mm acrylic already for the motherboard tray [01:34] It's really quite bendy [01:35] I'd prefer to go overkill on the aquarium...I mean it is going to be holding 5 gallons of oil in my bedroom [01:35] that shit breaks and I'm going to be murdered [01:35] could you not buy a tank for the task? [01:36] I could but I wasn't much a fan of hacking a tank [01:36] You want to count yourself lucky... smallest enclosure for mine is 1m x 0.5m x 0,5m [01:36] virmin: lol [01:36] I guess I could buy one though [01:36] might be difficult to find a motherboard sized aquarium [01:36] the main concern I'd have, is the joints if you are just fitting sheets together [01:37] assuming you find the rigid enough sheets [01:37] Heheh... smallest for the most demanding is 1.25m x 1.25m x 0.5m [01:37] ;) [01:37] :| [01:37] hehe [01:38] maybe buy a tank and hack it instead then, It would be more reliable [01:38] you could mount the clear sheet you got in it [01:38] to put the mobo on? [01:38] yes that's what I want to do [01:38] the sheet I have is for the mobo either way [01:38] If you kept chinese water dragons, you could mix the water cooling on your processor with heating their pool! :D [01:39] :D [01:39] hehe [01:39] so yea, first things first I suppose I need to get this nice sheet of acrylic made into a mobo tray :D [01:39] and you could use your arduino for climate control Azelphur [01:39] and for that I need a cheap drill, suggestions? :D [01:39] gets too cold, overclocks the cpu [01:39] hamitron: haha :D [01:40] hamitron: I was thinking more attach huge radiators and overclock an i7 to 5ghz [01:40] If I was in your shoes, I'd be making a second sealed enclosure for my PC... bit like double-insulation [01:40] you are using the oil for cooling? [01:40] virmin: yea I thought of that, if I build it myself I probably will, if I buy an aquarium maybe not [01:40] hamitron: yes [01:40] or vacuum sealed so no noise.... [01:41] both? [01:41] hmmm [01:41] Vacuum sealed... need to overcome the additional pressure exhorted by the water-tank [01:41] would a comp work in a vacuum? [01:41] The weight of the water would be greater than normal atmospheric pressure [01:42] And, even then, it's temperature dependant [01:42] hamitron: I was just talking about air tight really [01:42] like a normal aquarium [01:42] it doesn't need to be completely silent, I'm not too finicky about that [01:42] * hamitron is [01:42] ;) [01:42] I'm quite happy with my Antec 1200 that has like 6 fans in it and I sleep in the same room [01:42] f*** me, and I thought I was insane with my RAID madness [01:42] :D [01:42] even though my fans are at 0 rpm atm :/ [01:43] granted the fans are on low, but I doubt my aquarium rig will get anywhere near that load no matter what I do [01:43] loud* [01:44] hamitron: my basic idea to start with was to get the aquarium sorted and a radiator and a filter [01:44] filter? [01:44] apparently it builds up dust over a while [01:44] ah :) [01:45] thought you were going to change the oil to water, and have tropical fish in with the mobo [01:45] puget systems have had an oil cooled rig running for 3 years now [01:45] haha :D [01:45] My Antec 1200 case needs its filters cleaning every few weeks :( [01:45] :/ [01:46] virmin: I havn't looked at my antec 1200's filters in a year [01:46] * Azelphur runs [01:46] I never get clogged filters in mine [01:46] ;) [01:46] hehe [01:46] so yea first things first drill to make holes in acrylic, suggestions? [01:46] doesn't need to be an amazing drill, cheap and cheerful is good for me [01:46] The room mine's in, is down to bare plaster... [01:46] suggestions for what? [01:46] hamitron: a drill [01:46] screwfix? [01:47] ebay? [01:47] no particular brands that are good? [01:47] Dad's toolbox [01:47] hmmm [01:47] hamitron: except me and my dad havn't talked in over a year :p [01:47] imo, it shouldn't matter if you are doing something light [01:48] cheep and cheerful little drill from argos? http://tinyurl.com/27yq6f4 [01:48] in soft acrylic you could just about use a drill bit with your fingers ;) [01:48] haha yea true, acrylic is pretty weak [01:49] some is [01:49] ;/ [01:49] also don't suppose you happen to know the bolts/risers/... I'm going to need to mount the motherboard? [01:49] think about it [01:50] you don't need a drill [01:50] you could just use wood screws [01:50] unless you feel it would be too weak [01:51] I'm a weakling and I'd probably end up messing up if I didn't have something to cut through it like butter [01:53] hamitron: happen to know the stuff I need nut/bolt wise? [01:53] I assume I'd need a bolt with a couple nuts either side and some washers to raise the mobo properly [01:53] that is 1 option [01:53] but I'd use 1 nut [01:54] fun [01:54] the other cool idea I had would be to put the motherboard on draw type rails so I could lift the motherboard up and suspend it above the aquarium for maintenance [01:54] could use a star washer if you feel vibration will be high [01:55] or build a hydralics system the comp comtrols? [01:55] :D [01:55] haha [01:55] controls [01:56] Why not hand drill it? [01:56] (01:51:09) Azelphur: I'm a weakling and I'd probably end up messing up if I didn't have something to cut through it like butter [01:56] Ah [01:56] you could probably use an old soldering iron [01:56] Sorry, was sampling some JD & ginger [01:56] ;/ [01:57] haha I doubt that'd come out neat somehow [01:57] probably not :) [01:57] I'd be dubious as to how neat hand drilled would come out too even if I wasn't a feeble person :p [01:58] another option.... [01:58] cut the thread off these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PC-COMPUTER-PLASTIC-SCREW-IN-MOTHERBOARD-STANDOFFS-X-10-/380288890431?pt=UK_Computing_DesktopComponents_RL&hash=item588afbf63f [01:58] and glue them on [01:58] or even glue them in a hole without taking the thread off [01:59] and the motherboard just drops onto them like a clip? [01:59] yes [01:59] no need for screws I sorta like it [01:59] not as strong [01:59] they look a bit flimsy though I wonder if they'd stand up in oil [01:59] yea [01:59] well [02:00] the weight of the cpu cooler would worry me more [02:00] yea, It's gonna be a big one [02:00] oh yeh ;/ [02:00] as big as possible in order to have maximum oil contact [02:01] so yea probably best to stick with big ol chunks of metal for that one [02:01] how often does it need an oil change? [02:01] it doesn't [02:01] or service :D [02:01] ^ in theory [02:02] I'd personally go for super glue with the clips [02:02] and drill/tap holes in the acrylic for them [02:02] http://www.ixbt.com/cpu/coolx/zalman9700/zalman9700-onmobo.jpg I'm probably sticking something at least that big on there [02:03] and apply glue to thread to hold them tight [02:04] have you never used these clips? [02:04] no [02:04] I've never really built a computer before, that's what makes this extra fun [02:04] :( [02:04] now I am worrying [02:04] I mean I know the usual stuff, I shuffle HDDs and Opticals every 5 minutes [02:04] your first comp build will be an oil tank? [02:05] and I've replaced the odd PSU [02:05] yup, I'm crazy [02:05] yes [02:05] haha [02:05] I also reflashed my G1 (£200), Linksys WRT610N (£120?) and hard-modded my G19 (£120) all within an hour of unboxing [02:06] :D [02:06] the zalman 9700 is small by modern standards [02:06] I reckon the clips would hold it [02:06] directhex: just some random zalman cooler I google'd, havn't selected a cooler yet [02:07] hamitron: but yea that's why I'm talking a lot about it pretty much everywhere, getting lots of good input from everyone so hopefully it'll come out ok :D [02:07] http://www.pcper.com/images/reviews/125/Mtd-15.jpg isn't that big anymore either [02:07] oh Azelphur, is it mounted vertically? [02:07] I'mma build and test the tank before I buy any hardware so worst case scenario I waste the money I spent on the tank [02:07] directhex: haha [02:08] hamitron: yea [02:08] I could change that I suppose, it would solve the heat sink weighing half a tonne and bending the mobo [02:08] http://news.softpedia.com/newsImage/Scythe-Orochi-Meet-the-Largest-CPU-Cooler-Ever-4.jpg/ ? [02:08] would be easier to access the board too wouldn't need the drawer rails [02:09] directhex: haha, bet that'd go good in oil [02:09] do you have an oil pump for this? [02:09] mineral oil cooling? good luck. [02:10] directhex: ty :D [02:10] hamitron: nope [02:10] directhex: for his first comp build ;/ [02:10] gets better \o/ [02:10] hamitron: no point building if you don't have fun with it *shrug* [02:10] building computers isn't exactly hard though [02:10] chosing the right cmponents is hard [02:11] true [02:11] ^ true [02:11] plugging them all in isn't [02:11] but yea with the whole oil thing I'm just taking everything one step at a time, not running out and spending £1.6k on the hopes it'll work here [02:11] pfft [02:11] If this fails I'll probably loose no more than £50 [02:11] oil's for wusses [02:11] directhex: haha, what's wrong with oil? :D [02:11] real men run phase change cooling [02:11] water \o/ [02:12] directhex: also that heat sink is pretty cheap I could actually buy that lol [02:12] tis only $80 [02:12] actually, phase change is totally old hat now too [02:13] I don't think any form of water cooling can come close to mineral oil [02:13] real men just put a giant metal hollow cylinder on their cpu, and keep pouring liquid nitrogen into it [02:13] just by the simple logic of copper > any liquid [02:13] "real men", haha [02:13] directhex: haha, true true :D [02:13] fwiw you can buy a retail motherboard where that's the cooling solution just for the mobo chipset [02:13] not the cpu, just the mobo chipset [02:13] "real men" have nothing lacking, so have no need to try make up for it in other ways ;/ [02:15] directhex: yea but imo mineral oil is about as good as it gets short of dice/nitro/hydrogen [02:15] http://www.foxconnchannel.com/product/motherboards/detail_overview.aspx?id=en-us0000430 - " Swap out the NB parts to configure it for air, water or more extreme forms of cooling!" [02:15] and of course flurinert [02:15] basically mineral oil is about the best bang for your buck cooling [02:15] Azelphur: ever wondered why it's so uncommon? [02:16] directhex: because it's difficult to maintain [02:16] and ship [02:16] and it's generally a nightmare for anyone but an enthusiast [02:16] why the need to have the mobo swimming in it? [02:16] hamitron: because then you can have heat sinks the size of a small planet [02:16] Azelphur: i'm talking about enthusiasts. [02:16] directhex: dunno, it scares people I think [02:17] the enthusiasts all say "eww, dirty" [02:17] at least that's the reaction I got from various enthusiasts and blogs [02:17] what scares me, would be wanting to change hdd and stuff and the mess :/ [02:17] Azelphur: oil cooling is way, way, way, way, way off the bottom of the popularity list. second hand vapochills are way more common [02:17] they want to constantly tweak and oil submersion makes this difficult [02:17] directhex: why do you think it's uncommon? [02:17] hamitron: hdd/optical stays out [02:18] that makes it boring then :/ [02:18] hamitron: not really they don't need cooling just pointless heat generation :p [02:18] Azelphur: because i hang around pc enthusiast communities, and i have never heard of anyone doing mineral oil other than as a joke [02:18] my hdd are the hottest part of my comp [02:18] psu probably stays out too [02:18] hmmm [02:19] directhex: well it the premise of full submersion obviously works reasonably well, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it with super computers [02:19] granted they are using flurinert but mineral oil isn't a bad budget alternative to that [02:19] you know how the chip frier gets solid bits in the oil? :/ [02:19] aren't all supercomputers built of white box commodity PCs these days? [02:19] Azelphur: which supercomputers would those be? [02:19] ali1234: yes [02:19] directhex: most if not all of the cray series [02:19] if they melt you just buy some more and its no big deal [02:20] ali1234: indeed [02:20] i'm not convinced about this mineral oil plan :) [02:20] i can see several problems [02:20] ali1234: go for it [02:21] Azelphur: cray isn't immersion based [02:21] first, you still going to have hot spots just like with air cooling [02:21] I have visions of the oil clogging up the fins [02:21] ali1234: yup, [02:21] Azelphur: current gen cray is phase change [02:21] hamitron: fans survived fine in that 3 year old puget systems box [02:21] second, the oil isn't conductive when you build it... but it only takes one leaking capacitor... [02:22] Azelphur: you're thinking of the cray 2, which is... not relevant in 2010 [02:22] directhex: true [02:22] third, it will be super heavy... [02:22] of the modern generation of crays, XT3/4 are air cooled, XT5 is phase change [02:23] ali1234: heavy really couldn't care less about [02:23] it's not moving anywhere :p [02:23] well as long as you don't put it on the second floor of your house... you will get cracks in the clielings below and stuff :) [02:23] *ceilings [02:24] directhex: does phase change require constant refuelling? [02:24] "Azelphur: I'm a weakling" [02:24] ;/ [02:24] ali1234: I'm on the 3rd floor and I have a huge desk quad screen and an antec 1200 up here [02:24] Azelphur: no. but for consumer phase change, it requires very careful handling of condensation [02:24] slightly misquoted [02:24] ali1234: I doubt that the tank will weigh more than a person, or a populated cupboard. I don't think it's that bigger deal [02:25] Azelphur: sub-zero temperatures means condensation and.or ice forming on nearby components [02:25] I like this sub-zero part though [02:26] :/ [02:26] i'd be worried about the fire hazard too [02:27] ali1234: I checked into the fire hazard stuff the ignition point of mineral oil is 170C, plus the obvious lack of oxygen in a submerged environment, it should act as a fire suppressant [02:27] but I am totally interested in phase change :) [02:28] directhex: how much does a phase change kit set you back? [02:28] Azelphur: 500 or so, starting price? :> [02:28] youch, there goes half mu budget :p [02:28] phase change needs a compressor though right? [02:28] why not just get a bit nicer comp? [02:28] so it's not going to be quiet [02:29] ie more ram [02:29] ;/ [02:29] so I guess the question I should be asking is, "Is mineral oil cooling cost effective compared to other cooling methods" [02:29] I reckon I can build the mineral cooling setup for about £150, so what could I get for that? [02:29] air is cheapest imo [02:30] but I wouldn't be able to clock it very high [02:30] CPU is not the bottleneck these days anyway [02:30] crap software is :( [02:30] haha [02:31] I'd rather have 16Gb RAM with air cooling, than 8Gb with oil [02:31] hamitron: and I'd rather have 6GB than 8GB for tri channel [02:31] gotta get 24Gb then :/ [02:32] http://game.azelphur.com/forum/building-my-dream-oil-submerged-computer take a look at the hardware I picked out so far [02:32] or 15gb [02:32] if you can get 15 [02:32] ;/ [02:32] ocz has a budget system [02:32] directhex: 1k is budget? :/ [02:33] $379.99 [02:33] for phase change, that's budget [02:33] oh that ain't bad for phase change [02:33] but I'm in the UK here, I doubt I'll get it for the US price [02:33] 850W psu? [02:34] geez [02:34] hamitron: gotta remember I was intending on clocking this a lot [02:34] suppose [02:34] but 850W is a lot of power in todays "green" mindset [02:34] :) [02:35] when I get rich I'll build a wind farm to offset my power hungry activities. [02:36] directhex: what's the model of that phase change? [02:36] I'll try and find it cheap [02:36] criminal to put such a nice spec comp in oil :/ [02:36] cryo-z. but as standard it only has 755 and am2 mounts. the modern mounts are exclusive to frozencpu.com [02:37] yea I'm starting to move over to you guys way of thinking on the mineral oil idea [02:37] I see [02:37] synthetic then!? [02:37] *rejoins* [02:37] lol [02:39] Sorry, there's been a lot of chat since I was last on, and it's late/early so as I'm unlikely to hang about much, I'll just play catchup :) [02:39] Azelphur: you have £120 left [02:39]