[12:05] <bdrung> persia: dmb meeting?
[12:12] <cjwatson> is it now or in 50 minutes?  my calendar is confusing
[12:12] <BlackZ> cjwatson: I'd say now
[12:12] <bdrung> cjohnston: it should be now
[12:13] <bdrung> cjohnston: or to be more precise: 13 minutes ago
[12:13] <czajkowski> any chance the fridge could just get DST right
[12:15] <soren> I somehow suspect the fridge isn't the problem.
[12:15]  * cjwatson is cjwatson not cjohnston
[12:15] <czajkowski> soren: it bit the LC already this month
[12:16] <soren> czajkowski: LC?
[12:17] <bdrung> sorry cjwatson - i should type more characters before using tab-completion
[12:17] <soren> bdurng: Or not use tab-completion at all. It works great!
[12:17] <soren> Oh, wait.
[12:18] <bdrung> soren: no, it doesn't :P
[12:18] <czajkowski> soren: Loco council
[12:18] <quadrispro> hi all
[12:19] <Kmos> hi
[12:19] <bilalakhtar> Hi Kmos
[12:20] <bilalakhtar> good to see you in a DMB meeting, I guess the first time since you sent your mail to devel-permissions?
[12:20] <Kmos> bilalakhtar: correct. I sent an e-mail explaning why I failed the meetings
[12:21] <Kmos> I need to run in 45 minutes, just waiting for DMB to start
[12:21] <BlackZ> hi
[12:21] <cjwatson> so we have bdrung soren cjwatson.  stgraber sent apologies.  any other DMB members present?
[12:22] <cjwatson> cody-somerville is probably asleep
[12:22]  * bilalakhtar forgot bdrung is a DMB member :D
[12:24] <bdrung> then the question is: where is persia?
[12:24] <cjwatson> or geser for that matter
[12:25] <bdrung> oh, yes. i can't count ;)
[12:26] <soren> I wonder if we should auto-schedule a topic for these meetings a couple of weeks before DST changes in any of the countries in which we have members. Scheduling meetings for people in such a diverse set of timezones will almost always mean it's going to be a stretch for someone.
[12:27] <soren> ...and when DST kicks in, that might be the... what's the expression? something that tips the scale.
[12:27] <bdrung> soren: do all dmb members live in a country with DST?
[12:27] <soren> bdrung: no.
[12:28] <soren> bdrung: persia doesn't.
[12:28] <soren> And the US and EU switch at different times.
[12:28] <bdrung> oh
[12:29] <soren> So we have ~4 TZ combinations that we need to deal with.
[12:29] <cjwatson> and some of us use google calendar which is known to suck at timezones.
[12:29] <soren> cjwatson: I hear that a lot. I'm not sure I agree.
[12:29] <cjwatson> IME
[12:30] <soren> Most stories have a (perfectly reasonable) explanation, so it's more of a question of wrong expectations.
[12:30] <quadrispro> cjohnston, really it is so (although I love all google stuff)
[12:30] <quadrispro> wop
[12:30] <quadrispro> cjwatson, above :)
[12:31] <cjwatson> soren: the fact that it hopelessly confuses people on a frequent basis is suckage, even if there's a reasonable explanation for each individual piece
[12:31] <bdrung> how can we improve the situation?
[12:32] <soren> If I schedule a recurring meeting for 8 PM, I've never seen that fail. However, if people in e.g. the US look at the same meeting, it'll move whenever the TZ delta between myself and them changes.
[12:32] <soren> ...which is surprising, but correct.
[12:32] <bdrung> can the chair man ping all members an hour before the dmb meeting start and tell them: dmb meeting in one hour?
[12:33] <soren> The best solution I've seen is to switch to Icelandic time when you schedule meetings. That way, it should stay constant w.r.t. UTC.
[12:33] <cjwatson> yes, it would help not to be starting the process of rounding people up at start-of-meeting
[12:33] <cjwatson> although in this case stgraber already sent an e-mail reminder
[12:33] <bilalakhtar> quadrispro: Nothing is perfect. If something's wrong with the calendar, it should be accepted as a mistake and should be fixed or we, as users should work around it
[12:34] <bilalakhtar> which is what the DMB is doing
[12:34] <quadrispro> yep, I see :)
[12:35] <persia> Sorry: time calculation failure.
[12:36] <soren> *chuckle*
[12:37] <bdrung> why are so many people bad at time calculation? i remember debian-multimedia meeting where too many calculated the wrong time.
[12:38] <cjwatson> we should start since we now have 4
[12:38] <cjwatson> wiki says persia is chairing
[12:38] <persia> #startmeeting
[12:38] <MootBot> Meeting started at 06:38. The chair is persia.
[12:38] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[12:38] <persia> [TOPIC] Action Item review
[12:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item review
[12:39]  * persia failed to contact the CC
[12:39] <persia> cjwatson to add haildb to mtaylor's PPU list
[12:40] <cjwatson> added (about five seconds ago in a panic)
[12:40] <persia> [TOPIC] Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development
[12:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development
[12:40] <persia> Kmos, This was stalled, looking for CC input.  Since you're here today, did you have anything you wanted to add, specifically?
[12:41] <Kmos> persia: I don't think so, just I to appologize for no been around latest DMB meetings.
[12:41] <persia> No worries.  We've been indecisive.
[12:42] <Kmos> ok
[12:42] <bdrung> Kmos: may i ask how old are you?
[12:42] <Kmos> bdrung: 26 years old
[12:42] <persia> [TOPIC] Martin Pool's Developer Application
[12:42] <MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Pool's Developer Application
[12:42] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
[12:42] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
[12:43] <bilalakhtar> is mbp here?
[12:44] <persia> Hrm, seems poolie is not on freenode :(
[12:44] <soren> 08:15 < poolie> night all
[12:44] <soren> From #bzr.
[12:44] <soren> That's 4½ hours ago.
[12:44] <persia> BlackZ, Are you here yet?  You said you might be late.
[12:44] <BlackZ> persia: I'm here
[12:45] <persia> [TOPIC] Lorenzo De Liso's application for core-dev
[12:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lorenzo De Liso's application for core-dev
[12:45] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LorenzoDeLiso/CoreDeveloperApplication
[12:45] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LorenzoDeLiso/CoreDeveloperApplication
[12:45] <cjwatson> poolie isn't around on internal IRC either
[12:46] <cjwatson> he's in .au and it's possible neither of our usual times is terribly congenial
[12:46] <soren> Do we need him here?
[12:46] <persia> I think it's something like 2am for poolie: he'll probably be happier with the other meeting time,.
[12:46] <soren> I, for one, don't feel I need to ask him anything.
[12:47] <cjwatson> I'd be happy to handle poolie's app in absentia personally
[12:48] <persia> I think everyone should be asked questions.
[12:48] <cjwatson> you're the chair :)
[12:49] <bdrung> i want to ask him questions
[12:49] <persia> BlackZ, Beyond helping others become developers, what work do you expect to do in the core packageset?
[12:50] <cjwatson> mixed feedback from BlackZ's comments
[12:50] <cjwatson> (on the wiki)
[12:50] <BlackZ> persia: well, I don't have a specific package set where I want to work on, as I said on my application, I work on some Ubuntu server related packages
[12:50] <BlackZ> cjwatson: please let me comment Artur Rona's comment :)
[12:50] <cjwatson> BlackZ: of course everyone makes mistakes and I don't think it's necessary for people to be grilled about every single one - but how do you feel you might have avoided the rsyslog breakage from end of last week?
[12:51] <cjwatson> BlackZ: I was more looking at the several ones from core-devs who said "hm, not bad, would like a bit more experience though"
[12:51] <persia> BlackZ, Well, you're applying for upload permission to the "core" package set (and coincidentally, all the others).  I'd hope you had specific work you had been doing or planned to do there for which you would need such permission.  If you're mostly interested in server stuff, there is the server packageset.
[12:52] <BlackZ> cjwatson: well, I learned from my own mistakes :) as I said you, I did that accidentally and this happens very rarely; most sponsors want me to work on other tasks other than "just" merges, but I work closely with Debian
[12:52] <BlackZ> persia: yes but I'm interested in mostly of the packages in the main component, too
[12:54] <soren> BlackZ: The server packageset contains stuff in main, too.
[12:54] <persia> As do a number of packagesets (most of them, really)
[12:54] <BlackZ> soren: yeah but I'm talking generally :)
[12:54] <cjwatson> how is the grub merge going, anyway? ;-)
[12:54] <BlackZ> cjwatson: I'd say 66 % :)
[12:55] <BlackZ> cjwatson: I didn't have a lot of time in the last week to look at it, but it's in progress
[12:55] <cjwatson> ok
[12:56] <bdrung> how can i check which package is in the server package set? i sponsored a bunch of merges which are probably not in this set.
[12:56] <cjwatson> edit_acl.py -P server -S natty query
[12:56] <cjwatson> hm, or not
[12:57] <soren> It's ubuntu-server, isn't it?
[12:57] <cjwatson> edit_acl.py -P ubuntu-server -S natty query
[12:57] <soren> http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/packagesets
[12:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/packagesets
[12:58] <cjwatson> no
[12:58] <BlackZ> for example, irssi, and most of the packages which I take care aren't in the server package set
[12:58] <cjwatson> please don't point people at that
[12:58] <soren> cjwatson: Apologies.
[12:58] <BlackZ> s/which I take care/which I take care of
[12:58] <persia> cjwatson, Is it no longer accurate?
[12:58] <cjwatson> the list that's actually in Launchpad is always better
[12:58] <soren> Less accessible, though.
[12:58] <cjwatson> ~cjwatson/packagesets may contain things that haven't been applied yet
[12:58] <cjwatson> it's really just a convenience staging URL
[12:59] <cjwatson> I'll see if I can provide something accessible and generated from Launchpad at some point
[12:59] <cjwatson> (it's painful because LP doesn't seem to let me query package sets while logged in anonymously)
[13:00] <bilalakhtar> BlackZ: as for main packages, many packages are handled by delegated development teams. Many are part of the core as well. I saw you around the time you became contrib-dev and when you became MOTU. What made you feel that you have enough experience to be a core-dev?
[13:00] <BlackZ> bilalakhtar: well, I touch many core packages and some people advised me to do that (for this reason, too) :)
[13:01] <BlackZ> obviously I will not work on "just" merges but on other tasks too; however as I said, I'm working closely with Debian (for example to fix bugs to the packages there and get our fixes there to minimalize our delta)
[13:02] <bdrung> i checked the sponsored packages. most of them are in the core package set
[13:02] <Kmos> need to go, bbl
[13:03] <persia> BlackZ, When working on packages that affect multiple flavours, what are some of the important concerns?
[13:03]  * cjwatson looks at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=602406 - shouldn't that have been multiple bugs?
[13:04] <bilalakhtar> BlackZ: as for the bug which cjwatson pointed out, patch debian/patches/notification-append seems ubuntu-specific
[13:04] <bilalakhtar> it shouldn't have been forwarded to debian
[13:04] <BlackZ> persia: well, when touching *any* package (that affects multiple flavours or not) I try firstly to get in touch with the last person who touched it and I look for any single change; also, I test the package first to upload it
[13:05] <BlackZ> cjwatson: right but usually I forward them with one patch that contains all changes
[13:05] <cjwatson> but you shouldn't :)
[13:05] <cjwatson> just as Ubuntu bugs should be one bug per logical issue, so should Debian bugs
[13:05] <persia> patches.ubuntu.com does that for us.  Lots of folk find it hard or unpleasant to read.
[13:05] <BlackZ> cjwatson: ok, then I will do like you said in the future
[13:06] <cjwatson> I know submittodebian sort of fails to discourage that, but you are meant to edit the patch
[13:06] <cjwatson> thanks - it'll be easier to get Debian maintainers to look at patches this way
[13:06] <BlackZ> cjwatson: yes but I forward them manually :P
[13:07] <bdrung> BlackZ: splitting the ubuntu changes is important. then the debian maintainer can decide what to pick and what to reject
[13:07] <BlackZ> bdrung: agreed; that's why in the future I will do that
[13:07] <cjwatson> more importantly, can make those decisions at different times and keep track
[13:07] <BlackZ> cjwatson: thank you for pointing that out
[13:08] <persia> Any outstanding questions?
[13:08] <cjwatson> bdrung: you mentioned that you encouraged BlackZ to apply for core-dev; what made you feel differently from the other folks on his wiki page?
[13:08] <bdrung> cjwatson: i sponsored more than the others.
[13:09] <bdrung> cjwatson: a big bunch of sponsor requests came from BlackZ.
[13:09] <cjwatson> not an unreasonable point
[13:10] <bdrung> his requests were all fine, he forwarded the ubuntu changes, the sync requests were all ok
[13:12] <soren> I think I would classify that as a required condition for core-devs, by no means a sufficient one.
[13:14] <persia> OK.  Moving to voting:
[13:14] <persia> [VOTE] Lorenzo De Liso to become core-dev
[13:15] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Lorenzo De Liso to become core-dev.
[13:15] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[13:15] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[13:15] <bdrung> +1
[13:15] <MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[13:15] <persia> -1 : I'd like to see a clearer plan and stronger support in endorsements.
[13:15] <MootBot> -1 received from persia. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[13:15] <soren> -1 at this point, sorry.
[13:15] <MootBot> -1 received from soren. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[13:17] <cjwatson> +0 - acknowledged bdrung's point but I really have a hard time saying yes with most of the endorsements being kind of lukewarm.  I think if you're ready for core-dev you should be able to persuade people to be actively enthusiastic about you. :-)  It looks as though you're going in the right direction though ...
[13:17] <MootBot> Abstention received from cjwatson. 1 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
[13:17] <persia> [ENDVOTE]
[13:17] <MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 2 against. 1 abstained. Total: -1
[13:17] <persia> That's below threshold, even if everyone else votes in favour.
[13:18] <persia> [TOPIC] Ken VanDine's application for core-dev
[13:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ken VanDine's application for core-dev
[13:18] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
[13:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
[13:20] <persia> kenvandine, Hey.  So, what work have you been doing that requires core-dev?
[13:21] <bdrung> kenvandine: can you give some examples of your work outside of ubuntu-desktop?
[13:23] <persia> kenvandine, Are you here?
[13:24] <persia> Perhaps a bit early there yet.  Moving to the next applicant.
[13:24] <persia> [TOPIC] AlessioTreglia's application for core-dev
[13:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  AlessioTreglia's application for core-dev
[13:25] <persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioTreglia/CoreDeveloperApplication
[13:25] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlessioTreglia/CoreDeveloperApplication
[13:25] <quadrispro> Hi all! here I am
[13:26]  * ari-tczew is saying all the best for quadrispro
[13:27] <persia> quadrispro, You mention that we don't collaborate enough with Debian: what steps do you think we should take to increase that?  I know you tend to do most of your work in Debian directly: do you think this model makes sense more widely?  Why or why not?
[13:28] <quadrispro> persia, thanks for the question
[13:28] <quadrispro> we should encourage our contributors to work on the both side
[13:28] <quadrispro> because
[13:28] <quadrispro> ok, some minutes to elaborate..
[13:29] <quadrispro> I don't know if my approach is the right one, asfaik I take care of quality on both D&U, and yes, it's difficult and it means more work
[13:30] <kenvandine> sorry
[13:30]  * kenvandine waves
[13:30] <cjwatson> depending on how you look at it - making changes as far upstream as possible is often less work in the long run
[13:30] <persia> kenvandine, We'll get back to you in a bit, if we can.
[13:30] <bdrung> quadrispro: do you have plans for main packages where collaboration fails?
[13:31] <kenvandine> thx
[13:31] <quadrispro> yes, for instance: simple-scan
[13:31] <kenvandine> sorry i was late, didn't put this on my calendar...
[13:31] <quadrispro> I admire robert's work, but he doesn't answer my question, he ignores the work on the Debian side
[13:32] <quadrispro> and with my next uploads I'll adopt some changes for the patch system
[13:32] <quadrispro> i.e. divering quilt series file, in order to apply ubuntu-specific patches just from my side
[13:33] <quadrispro> persia, we should encourage contributors to: 1) know better how debian works: it's not enough to know that it's different, they should know *where* and *how* is different
[13:34] <quadrispro> (and sorry for my bad english...)
[13:34] <bdrung> quadrispro: did you talked with robert about simple-scan?
[13:35] <quadrispro> bdrung, yes, I tried, not everyday
[13:35] <quadrispro> I've sent a mail to u-devel-discuss some time ago: got no replies
[13:36] <bdrung> quadrispro: and direct e-mailing him?
[13:36] <quadrispro> yes, done too
[13:36] <quadrispro> :)
[13:37] <quadrispro> I've asked him if he would like to help me maintaining the package on Debian too, I told him: "please, merge rather than upload new -0ubuntuX revisions"
[13:37] <quadrispro> "i'm open to suggestions, criticism, whatever you want: please let me know"
[13:37] <quadrispro> no replies
[13:38] <quadrispro> BTW, I'm forwarding bugs,patches for simple-scan
[13:38] <soren> I don't see a problem in having packages flow the other way, really.
[13:38] <cjwatson> quadrispro at least deserves a response though
[13:38] <soren> If upstreams only have time to really focus on one distro and they choose that one distro to be Ubuntu, that's ok.
[13:38] <persia> I think cooperation is more important than direction, although I think most of us tend to push to Debian when the same source works for both.
[13:38] <soren> Certainly.
[13:39] <quadrispro> persia, you got the point
[13:39] <soren> persia: Certainly. Me too, for upstream stuff I package. For stuff for which I'm upstream... Not so much.
[13:39] <soren> ...but that's not really the topic of discussion here anyway.
[13:40] <bdrung> the question is: how to resolve such cases (main packages are more affected by a lack of collaboration)
[13:40] <quadrispro> soren, but if the package works fine for Debian and Ubuntu and the delta is not so intrusive, why should we diverge? BTW, I agree, this is not the point
[13:40] <persia> OK.  New question: when working on packages that affect multiple flavours, what are some of the concerns?
[13:42] <soren> quadrispro: Responded in #ubuntu-motu. We can pick up the discussion there once we're over here.
[13:42] <quadrispro> well, they should work at all, and much of testing is needed
[13:43] <quadrispro> soren, thank you, I will :)
[13:43] <quadrispro> they *do* work
[13:44] <quadrispro> core packageset contains essential items that need paying particular care, a small mistake might mean large breakage
[13:44] <ari-tczew> sorry for offtopic, just semi-related to this discussion: from my point packages should be clean merged till FeatureFreeze, as Debian-based system.
[13:47] <persia> Anyone else have questions?
[13:47] <cjwatson> not I
[13:48] <persia> [VOTE] Alessio Treglia to become core-dev
[13:48] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Alessio Treglia to become core-dev.
[13:48] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[13:48] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[13:48] <cjwatson> +1
[13:48] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[13:48] <bdrung> +1
[13:48] <MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[13:49] <persia> +1 : good history, strong endorsements, lovely work
[13:49] <MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[13:49] <soren> +1
[13:49] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[13:49] <persia> [ENDVOTE]
[13:49] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
[13:49] <persia> Congratulations quadrispro
[13:50] <bdrung> congrats quadrispro
[13:50] <quadrispro> thank you persia, thanks all
[13:50] <persia> [TOPIC] Ken VanDine's core-dev application
[13:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ken VanDine's core-dev application
[13:50] <kenvandine> :)
[13:50] <persia> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
[13:50] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KenVanDine/DeveloperApplication
[13:50] <kenvandine> i apologize for being late
[13:50] <persia> kenvandine, The questions asked before were mostly for examples or work outside the desktop set.  Could you share some?
[13:50] <bdrung> kenvandine: no problem, we had enough in the pipe
[13:50] <kenvandine> sure
[13:51] <kenvandine> they are of course things that are used by desktop components
[13:51] <kenvandine> most recent examples come to mind are x264 and ubuntu-geoip
[13:51] <kenvandine> x264 bug fix which was breaking video calls in empathy
[13:51] <kenvandine> and ubuntu-geoip is a new package
[13:52] <bdrung> kenvandine: why did you use the "2:0.98.1653+git88b90d9-3ubuntu1" version for the SRU?
[13:52] <kenvandine> i end up fixing the bugs and doing or reviewing the packaging then i need to steal some valuable time from someone to sponsor
[13:52] <kenvandine> was that for x264?
[13:53] <bdrung> yes, x264
[13:53] <kenvandine> that was what dch gave me... to be honest :)
[13:54] <kenvandine> it was our first change on top of the latest debian one we had
[13:54] <cjwatson> it seems fine to me to use that version, since natty already has something latere
[13:54] <kenvandine> but i suspect that should have been 0ubuntu1
[13:54] <cjwatson> *later
[13:54] <kenvandine> yeah
[13:54] <bdrung> kenvandine: did you check that this version doesn't exits in natty?
[13:54] <kenvandine> yes
[13:54] <kenvandine> natty was already later
[13:54] <kenvandine> 0.106 something
[13:55] <kenvandine> i think
[13:55] <kenvandine> which already had the fix from upstream
[13:55] <kenvandine> so i didn't need to touch that
[13:56] <bdrung> kenvandine: but there could be a 2:0.98.1653+git88b90d9-3ubuntu1 in between.
[13:56] <kenvandine> i doubt i checked all the versions in between
[13:56] <kenvandine> just the latest
[13:56] <cjwatson> the upload would just have been rejected in that case, and no harm done
[13:57] <kenvandine> true
[13:57] <bdrung> ok
[13:57] <kenvandine> also
[13:58] <kenvandine> it would be very useful if i could assist other team members with the sponsor queue
[13:58] <persia> kenvandine, When working on a package used by multiple flavours, what are some of the most important concerns?
[13:58] <kenvandine> seb128 for example has plenty to do...
[13:58] <bdrung> ubuntu-geoip is in universe
[13:58] <kenvandine> it needs to go to main
[13:58] <persia> kenvandine, Why?
[13:58] <kenvandine> new dep for indicator-datetime
[13:59] <persia> That would put it in the desktop set then, no?
[13:59] <kenvandine> ultimately, yes
[13:59] <kenvandine> but getting it to that point meant using seb128's time to get it uploaded, etc
[13:59] <kenvandine> so a motu could do it...
[13:59] <persia> Sure.
[14:00] <bdrung> kenvandine: have you more examples?
[14:00] <kenvandine> not specifically off hand... last cycle was much worse when the desktop set didn't have everything it should
[14:00] <kenvandine> cjwatson probably remembers that well :)
[14:01] <kenvandine> also the patch pilot program
[14:01] <bdrung> then it's an issue with the set
[14:01] <kenvandine> i am on that rotation, so would be useful if i could sponsor what i review
[14:01] <persia> kenvandine, How often do you find that you end up needing to work on something before it can be included in the packageset?
[14:01] <kenvandine> instead of just shoving that off on others
[14:01] <kenvandine> persia, every cycle...
[14:01] <cjwatson> it's happened maybe a half-dozen times
[14:01] <kenvandine> usually at the beginning
[14:01] <cjwatson> getting less frequent now I think
[14:02] <cjwatson> it does happen a lot for new packages though
[14:02] <persia> kenvandine, And similarly, if there was a way to get stuff into the packageset *before* it got added to the image, would that still be as high?
[14:02] <kenvandine> cjwatson, for the perms it was every week ... i was just having seb128 sponsor
[14:02] <cjwatson> persia: image, there is; archive, there isn't
[14:02] <kenvandine> that would help a lot
[14:02] <kenvandine> persia, but i think i could also be useful helping to reduce the sponsor queue
[14:02] <persia> cjwatson, Yes, but we don't use that much.
[14:02] <kenvandine> reviewing patches, etc
[14:02] <cjwatson> persia: use what?
[14:03] <persia> cjwatson, Add stuff to packagesets before they are seeded.
[14:03] <cjwatson> you said "added to the image", that's not quite the same thing. :)
[14:03] <cjwatson> actually, there's a fairly substantial list of exceptions
[14:04] <persia> Well, trye, although for the desktop packageset I presume it's fairly close.  Anyway, off-topic (but I'd like to learn more later)
[14:04] <kenvandine> i probably have a direct need to have someone sponsor something for me at least once a week
[14:04] <cjwatson> grep '^[^#]' exceptions | wc -l
[14:04] <cjwatson> 64
[14:04] <cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/535206/
[14:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/535206/
[14:04] <kenvandine> like this week, i'll need to get an upload of connman sponsored to go along with indicator-network
[14:04] <cjwatson> (was discussed at UDS)
[14:05] <bdrung> kenvandine: what's your relation to debian?
[14:05] <kenvandine> i would rather help reduce the sponsor queue, instead of making it worse
[14:05] <cjwatson> personally I'm confident that Ken would make fairly frequent use of these privileges if granted, and that they're proportionate to the work he's doing
[14:05] <bdrung> conman is in universe
[14:05] <kenvandine> bdrung, not much i am afraid, i have done some merge requests
[14:05] <kenvandine> i should do more
[14:06] <persia> I'd very much like ken to be able to add new packages to the archive, and work on stuff that is about-to-be-in-the-desktop-set.  I'm less convinced for stuff widely outside GNOME Desktopy stuff.
[14:06] <persia> Do we have any way to do that?
[14:06] <kenvandine> bdrung, yes, but just an example of something else that is a dep
[14:06] <soren> persia: Um... "motu"?
[14:06] <cjwatson> not really.  MOTU allows adding new packages to the archive, but stuff that's about to be in desktop often gets sucked into main earlier for one reason or another.
[14:07] <soren> I see.
[14:07] <cjwatson> so I'm sure Ken would use MOTU privileges, but I doubt it would be a complete answer
[14:07] <kenvandine> and with core-dev i could lighten the load a bit for seb128 and didrocks
[14:08] <persia> kenvandine, Well, how much of that load lightening is problems with the packageset, and how much is stuff that needs to be core?
[14:08] <kenvandine> not sure exactly
[14:08] <ari-tczew> heh... people says "I'll help reduce sponsors queue" but what about if you won't meet election promises? delete upload access?
[14:08] <kenvandine> but there are plenty of pieces that the desktop depends on that aren't in the desktop packageset
[14:09] <bdrung> examples?
[14:09] <persia> Well, X, for one :)
[14:09] <kenvandine> x264 is one... upower i don't think is in the desktop packageset either
[14:09] <kenvandine> indeed
[14:10] <kenvandine> and actually during the mesa fiasco with unity
[14:10] <kenvandine> at the end of the maverick cycle... the X guys wanted me to sponsor the fix
[14:10] <bdrung> x264 was one SRU. the package is mainly maintainer by siretart
[14:10] <kenvandine> because folks had holiday
[14:11] <kenvandine> bdrung, well that was just a recent example... i don't have every instance memorized :)
[14:11] <kenvandine> there was a last minute mesa upload that broken unity, during the RC of maverick
[14:11] <kenvandine> and folks were out on holiday, and with my relation to the DX team everyone was looking to me
[14:11] <kenvandine> but we had to find a sponsor
[14:14] <cjwatson> are there further questions here?  people seem to disagree on need, but we seem to be going round in circles at this point
[14:15] <bdrung> hi geser
[14:15] <kenvandine> :)
[14:15]  * geser waves
[14:15] <bdrung> kenvandine: re merges. do you forward relevant changes to debian?
[14:15] <kenvandine> i have
[14:15] <kenvandine> not sure i have been perfect
[14:16] <kenvandine> and i have helped sync changes for our packages after they made it in debian
[14:17] <bdrung> kenvandine: do you contact the debian maintainer and offer collaboration? the desktop packages seems to differentiate much.
[14:17] <kenvandine> for example, when the indicator stack made it in debian they sent back their changes to the packaging and i made sure we merged it
[14:17] <kenvandine> not usually direct contact
[14:17] <kenvandine> i haven't really had a need to
[14:17] <kenvandine> the debian maintainer for the indicator stuff was awesome
[14:18] <kenvandine> he made the effort to send us the changes
[14:18] <kenvandine> which wasn't much, but we of course prefer to be as close as possible
[14:18] <kenvandine> in that case it is kind of weird, we are upstream for the packages but debian is ubuntu's upstream
[14:20] <bdrung> kenvandine: i saw that the indicator stuff in maintained by the pkg-ayatana group. joining that group could increase collaboration
[14:21] <kenvandine> sure, i could do that
[14:21] <kenvandine> would be a good way for me to do more in debian
[14:22] <bdrung> kenvandine: joining a debian group is the best entrance point
[14:22] <kenvandine> i'll do that
[14:22] <bdrung> kenvandine: do you have specific plans for the sponsors-queue?
[14:23] <kenvandine> nothing specific, i'll be doing the patch pilot reviews once a month
[14:23] <kenvandine> and where ever i can to help reduce seb's load
[14:23] <bdrung> kenvandine: i see 12 open bugs for the ubuntu-desktop set.
[14:23] <kenvandine> that seems low :)
[14:24] <bdrung> kenvandine: that's more than the requests for universe and multiverse combined
[14:25] <kenvandine> how do you see bugs on the package set?
[14:25] <bdrung> kenvandine: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/ -> origin (and the stats on the bottom)
[14:25] <cjwatson> kenvandine: that's specifically sponsorship requests, not bugs in general
[14:25] <kenvandine> oh origin
[14:25] <bdrung> kenvandine: how much experience do you have with sponsoring work?
[14:26] <kenvandine> quite a bit, i review all the DX uploads weekly and upload them
[14:27] <kenvandine> for all the indicator-* packages, tedg does the packaging work in their ppa and he sends them to me for sponsoring
[14:27] <kenvandine> and they do weekly releases for all their projects that have had changes that week
[14:27] <bdrung> kenvandine: and sponsor requests from outside the DX team?
[14:27] <kenvandine> ubuntuone and desktopcouch
[14:27] <kenvandine> plus
[14:28] <kenvandine> i did a lot of the paper cuts
[14:28] <kenvandine> so empathy, rhythmbox, telepathy-*, etc
[14:28] <kenvandine> icon theme
[14:29] <kenvandine> a big chunk of the outside patches that came in for the paper cuts project i sponsored
[14:29] <kenvandine> but that is probably all desktop set stuff
[14:30] <persia> No reason not to sponsor that :)
[14:30] <kenvandine> right
[14:30] <kenvandine> and i have :)
[14:30] <persia> bdrung, Do you have more questions?
[14:30] <bdrung> persia: no
[14:31] <persia> [VOTE] Ken VanDine to become core-dev
[14:31] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Ken VanDine to become core-dev.
[14:31] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[14:31] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[14:32] <soren> +1  Lots of excellent work getting done and I'm sure Ken will use his powers for good :)
[14:32] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[14:32] <kenvandine> :)
[14:32] <kenvandine> always for good :-D
[14:33] <cjwatson> +1 - no complaints, good experience
[14:33] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[14:33] <persia> +0 : I'm really undecided about this, and don't think I can come to a conclusion now.  The work is good, but doesn't match my model of "core-dev" (which may need to change)
[14:33] <MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[14:34] <bdrung> +0 to me it looks more like an issue with the ubuntu-desktop package set. i have the same thought like persia
[14:34] <MootBot> Abstention received from bdrung. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
[14:34] <cjwatson> I entirely disagree that this is a package set issue, FWIW
[14:34] <persia> I also disagree that it's a packageset issue.
[14:34] <cjwatson> or if it is, it's not fixable in a reasonable timeframe for Ken
[14:35] <persia> [ENDVOTE]
[14:35] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 2
[14:36] <persia> I'll put these to the others via email, and may vote later myself.
[14:36] <persia> [ACTION] persia to get the rest of the votes for kenvandine
[14:36] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to get the rest of the votes for kenvandine
[14:36] <kenvandine> thx
[14:37]  * bilalakhtar came late, or else he would have added something for kenvandine 
[14:37] <persia> #endmeeting
[14:37] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:37.
[14:37] <persia> Thanks all!
[14:37] <bdrung> persia: chair for next meeting?
[14:37] <kenvandine> thx!
[14:37] <kenvandine> i have sponsored quite a bit for bilalakhtar :)
[14:38] <persia> bdrung, Thanks for volunteering :)
[14:38] <bilalakhtar> kenvandine was very knowledgable
[14:38] <bilalakhtar> and he was (indirectly) my mentor
[14:38] <bdrung> persia: that wasn't an offer. ;) it was just the question why we didn't discuss it.
[14:38] <bilalakhtar> Though he had been in ~ubuntu-desktop for quite some time, he was careful about every change he made
[14:38] <bilalakhtar> which I guess would be good for a core-dev
[14:39] <persia> bdrung, Mostly because I forgot.  Can you not do it next time?
[14:39] <bdrung> persia: ok
[14:42] <bdrung> bilalakhtar: that's not a reason for becoming a core-dev
[14:42] <bilalakhtar> bdrung: but it is one of the secondary qualities needed
[14:42] <bilalakhtar> IIRC
[14:42] <bilalakhtar> bdrung: you know better, I am still motu
[14:42] <bdrung> bilalakhtar: yes.
[14:43] <bdrung> maybe i am to sceptical towards canonical employees.
[14:47] <ari-tczew> I also disagree with kenvandine application to core-dev. Weak expierence with main.
[14:49] <kenvandine> most of my work has been in main :)
[14:49] <ari-tczew> desktop related, right?
[14:49] <kenvandine> yeah
[14:49] <ari-tczew> what about other stuff?
[14:49] <kenvandine> i'd rather not type all that again :)
[14:50] <ari-tczew> comparing your application with BlackZ, I'm closer to agree with BlackZ but IMO he has got not enough expierence to deal with main alone.
[14:51] <bdrung> cjwatson, persia: someone should become core-dev, because he/she works on core set packages and not because the packages are in the core set but belong to another set.
[14:51] <persia> For all that I abstained above, I can't agree with that.
[14:52] <ari-tczew> bdrung: quadrispro has joined to core-dev.
[14:52] <persia> bdrung, Yes, but.  1) topic for #ubuntu-devel, 2) the request is in part specifically for desktopy stuff in the core set (which belongs there).
[14:53] <bdrung> ok, let's move to #ubuntu-devel
[15:54] <bjf> jibel, you may be interested in: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence as I was just reading your "Kernel SRU" wiki pages
[15:55] <jibel> bjf, thanks, I've read that doc, the Kernel SRU wiki page is just a brain dump of my previous work on this process.
[16:00]  * skaet waves
[16:00] <vanhoof> hi skaet
[16:01] <skaet> hi vanhoof
[16:01] <cjwatson> hi
[16:01] <skaet> its about time to get this started....
[16:01] <skaet> hi cjwatson :)
[16:01] <pitti> hello
[16:01]  * charlie-tca waves
[16:01] <cjwatson> I was going to try to delegate to resolve a meeting conflict, but failed to do that in time so cancelled the other one instead ...
[16:01] <skaet> hi pitti, charlie-tca :)
[16:02] <skaet> cjwatson,  we can look at rescheduling once we have a quorum figured out for this
[16:02] <skaet> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is skaet.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <Riddell> hi
[16:02] <skaet> hi Riddell
[16:02] <skaet> purpose of this meeting is to improve coordination between teams on the stable release (and long term support) long term support updates.
[16:03] <skaet> meeting agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/StableReleaseAgenda
[16:03] <skaet> ts a symbolic link, and will always point to the latest.  I'll be updating it, with minutes from today's meeting, and we'll adapt it in future, as these meetings evolve
[16:03] <skaet> seem reasonable?
[16:03] <sconklin> ack
[16:03] <skaet> Would like to briefly go through some of the bugs on the radar for the 10.04.2 LTS, then move on to discussing the SRU kernel bi-weekly release,   then to general SRU updates.
[16:04] <zul> hi
[16:04] <skaet> hi zul
[16:05] <skaet> for 10.04.2 any update on the kernel bug flagged?
[16:05] <skaet> Bug #635344 - should it be resolved by an SRU update before, or be part of the 10.04.2?
[16:06] <skaet> sconklin?
[16:06] <sconklin> waiting for launchpad
[16:06] <skaet> thanks
[16:06] <cjwatson> wuh?
[16:07] <pitti> that sounds like an ancient udev cdrom_id issue all over again
[16:07] <skaet> cjwatson,  there's a few in the foundations list as well for 10.04.2
[16:07] <pitti> but the main problem there already got fixed years ago, ceratinly much earlier than lucid
[16:07] <cjwatson> hang on
[16:07] <sconklin> it's not clear that this is even a kernel bug, we have many bugs more worthy that this one, and there's no known fix, so not sure why it's on the list
[16:07] <cjwatson> waiting for launchpad to do what?
[16:07] <sconklin> should have written "no fix described in the bug wrt the kernel"
[16:08] <cjwatson> oh, right, waiting for launchpad to return the page :-)
[16:08] <skaet> sconlkin, okie.  lets just get it statused correctly.
[16:08] <sconklin> I was waiting for launchpad to serve the bug page
[16:08] <skaet> :)
[16:08] <sconklin> ..
[16:08] <cjwatson> skaet: bug 563916 and bug 607657 should definitely be RC for 10.04.2, and are on my list
[16:09] <cjwatson> skaet: I asked ev to look at bug 591207 for .1, but it didn't work out, will go round on that again - it's a messy bug
[16:09] <cjwatson> skaet: I confess to having no idea about bug 635273 just now
[16:09] <cjwatson> build tool changes scare me slightly in a point release though
[16:10] <cjwatson> it may be less dangerous to leave this broken
[16:10] <skaet> cjwatson,  thanks!  ok,  we'll keep tracking these.
[16:10] <cjwatson> ScottK: ^- you might disagree though
[16:11] <skaet> do we have anyone from server team?   there's bug #671103
[16:11] <cjwatson> that got accepted for validation earlier today
[16:12] <skaet> heh,   ok, didn't spot it in the morning scans.  :)
[16:13] <skaet> pitti,   how about the bugs against desktop?  bug # 525807,  bug #459647,  bug #625280
[16:13] <pitti> skaet: 459647/compiz has been going on and off, and is a problem when running compiz under KDE
[16:13] <skaet> ack
[16:13] <skaet> will keep on list then
[16:13] <pitti> we already had an attempted fix, but it caused regressions and was pulled
[16:14] <pitti> I wouldn't count on it for .2, and I think at this point we should just declare it broken in lucid
[16:14] <pitti> instead of jeopardizing stability
[16:14] <pitti> -geode> fairly recent request; I think it will go through
[16:14] <skaet> ok
[16:14] <pitti> so definitively keep geode on the list
[16:14] <pitti> wrt bug 525807
[16:15] <pitti> we backported 3.2.1 to lucid-proposed, but there was one regression report, which kept that from flowing to -udpdates
[16:15] <pitti> we have been looking for an OO.o maintainer for a while now, and are interviewing
[16:15] <pitti> but since we don't currently have an OO.o maintainer, I'd drop this from the 10.04.2 list
[16:15] <pitti> (sorry about that)
[16:16] <skaet> hmm,  still a bit of time for 10.04.2 - so will keep it on the list until jan
[16:16] <pitti> but neither the original bug nor the regression are even close to "easy"
[16:16]  * skaet hoping we get an OO.o maintainer hired soon ;)
[16:16] <pitti> skaet: me too :)
[16:16] <skaet> :)
[16:17] <skaet> ok,  that pretty much wraps up what was on my radar for 10.04.2,  anyone have anything to raise as a "to be watched"?
[16:18] <skaet> [TOPIC] Stable Release Update
[16:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Stable Release Update
[16:18] <cjwatson> just sponsored bug 671097, which I know the server team wants
[16:18] <skaet> sconklin,  where are we in this kernel cycle?
[16:18] <cjwatson> (and belatedly milestoned it)
[16:18] <skaet> cjwatson, :)
[16:18] <cjwatson> I sort of hate to bring it up because it's a mess of a bug, but bug 642555 is its usual nasty self
[16:18] <sconklin> If you look at the new stable cadence wiki page, I've renamed the cycle parts
[16:19] <sconklin> instead of week1 week2, it's now verification phase and testing phase
[16:19] <sconklin> since we may not always get the one week time periods
[16:19] <skaet> cjwatson, rather know about the messes.  thanks.
[16:19] <cjwatson> there's lots of complex history in the referenced bug 554172
[16:19] <sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
[16:19] <sconklin> cjwatson: go ahead
[16:20] <cjwatson> sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt
[16:20] <skaet> no worries,  its a first meeting, and we have some cadence to figure out,  go ahead
[16:20] <skaet> signal you're done with .. though ok
[16:21] <sconklin> looking at that bug
[16:21] <cjwatson> I don't think we know a good fix for this one, and the same kernel maybe-bug caused a mess in consolekit too (since worked around), but I don't think it's likely that we can improve the kernel here; apw already spent quite a while looking at this
[16:22] <cjwatson> my gut feel is that we should do something like having upstart (internally?) try a few times to get a console fd, and emit some kind of event when it's done
[16:22] <cjwatson> I'll need to talk about it with Keybuk/azul though
[16:22] <sconklin> oh, this could be related to the tty race condition that could be fixed with a change to upstrart, which was rejected as inelegant.
[16:22] <sconklin> If memory serves
[16:22] <cjwatson> Keybuk *did* change upstart!
[16:22] <cjwatson> as a point of information
[16:22] <apw> cjwatson, there is supposed to be more work coming from upstream which will close the races markedly, though i have not looked to see how much of that is in what is in natty
[16:23] <sconklin> ok, thanks for correcting that
[16:23] <cjwatson> however the change was to redirect the console to /dev/null if we lost the race
[16:23] <cjwatson> so at least we boot now, but we get this bug
[16:23] <Keybuk> right, and the opposite problem applies to Upstart
[16:23] <Keybuk> if Upstart is infinite-looping (or event-ing) when a console is ready
[16:23] <Keybuk> then you may never start the job that causes the console to be created
[16:23] <cjwatson> what I did in consolekit was to sleep for a bit until a console fd arrived, if we got EIO
[16:24] <Keybuk> because that needs a console
[16:24] <Keybuk> etc.
[16:24] <cjwatson> but I don't think that would work in upstart quite so obviously
[16:24] <apw> cjwatson, that is the 'approved' upstream solution to the issue
[16:25] <cjwatson> Keybuk: indeed, so it would need to be "try for a while, and then /dev/null"
[16:25] <cjwatson> rather than "/dev/null immediately"
[16:26] <Keybuk> I don't like the "for a while" in init ;-)
[16:26] <cjwatson> anyway, had intended to talk to you out-of-meeting about it rather than having the technical argument here :)
[16:26] <apw> (wednesday might be appropriate)
[16:26] <cjwatson> what's on Wednesday?
[16:26] <pitti> the upstart tech talk
[16:26] <apw> Keybuk's master class on upstart
[16:27] <Keybuk> well, I wouldn't want to spend the opportunity only talking about console devices
[16:27] <Keybuk> which is more "init covering up for the kernel's shortcomings"
[16:27] <cjwatson> not really the right forum, indeed
[16:28] <skaet> ok,  how about an action item to track this discussion offline, and turn it back sconklin.
[16:28] <sconklin> so - aside from renaming the stable cadence parts:
[16:28] <sconklin> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/StableReleaseCadence
[16:29] <sconklin> we're now in the "testing phase" for both maverick and lucid
[16:29] <sconklin> Lucid has completed cert testing, and no word on regression testing.
[16:29] <sconklin> I heard from Victor Friday that he had completed cert testing for Lucid in about a day, nice work!
[16:29] <apw> sconklin, which flavours and which architectures are tested for lucid
[16:30] <sconklin> victorp: ??
[16:30] <victorp> apw - is Ubuntu
[16:30] <victorp> for netbooks
[16:30] <victorp> desktop edition (laptops and pc_
[16:30] <victorp> servers
[16:30] <victorp> need to double check but edition I think includes x32 x64
[16:30] <victorp> so the same ones that we certify
[16:31] <sconklin> victorp: is there a place where testing results are publiched?
[16:31] <victorp> apw - no other Ubuntu flavours at the mo
[16:31] <sconklin> (This is later in the agenda)
[16:31] <skaet> victorp,  is there an online report/summary of testing?
[16:31] <victorp> yes but is not permanent
[16:31] <victorp> cr3 is going to add a copy to the bug as you suggested
[16:31] <victorp> http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/hw-testing/lucid-proposed.html
[16:31] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/hw-testing/lucid-proposed.html
[16:32] <sconklin> would be nice to have arch added to that report
[16:32] <sconklin> what's the status of cert testing for Maverick?
[16:33] <sconklin> victorp: ?
[16:34] <sconklin> ok, while we're waiting for that, what's the status of regression testing for Lucid or Maverick?
[16:35] <sconklin> tumbleweeds
[16:35] <skaet> pedro?
[16:35] <victorp> maverick
[16:35] <victorp> we just started today
[16:35] <victorp> so I hope to have everything done tomorrow
[16:35] <sconklin> victorp: excellent, thanks
[16:35] <victorp> (done_
[16:36] <pedro_> we've been running the qa-regression-testing suite on VM's at the moment but we're waiting for real HW or move it to the HW cert lab to have more coverage
[16:36] <skaet> pedro, jibel,  has there been any regression testing figured out for kernel SRU?
[16:36]  * skaet too slow on typing - thanks pedro_ 
[16:36] <victorp> pedro_ can you not run that via checkbox ?
[16:36] <victorp> pedro_ on hw in the lab?
[16:37] <pedro_> victorp, we need to talk with cr3 to know if that's possible or not
[16:37] <victorp> pedro_ ?
[16:37] <sconklin> Should we hold these kernels until we get definitive regression testing, or hold that cert testing is 'good enough'?
[16:37] <pedro_> but the perfect solution would be to include the qa-regression-testing suite into checkbox and run the tests on the same machines at the HW cert lab
[16:37] <skaet> pedro_, any reservations about lucid going out?
[16:38] <pedro_> that way you'd have more coverage and better chances to catch regressions
[16:38] <victorp> pedro_ that doesnt make sense to me
[16:39] <vanhoof> sconklin: victorp: the maverick sru is of top priority for the hwe team
[16:39] <victorp> pedro_ if that is the perfect solution , what is stopping us from doing it. You can have the HW that you need, so just run them. no?
[16:39] <pedro_> skaet, not really
[16:39] <skaet> pedro_, ok.   lets consider that good for now, and work on the regression flow incorporated for next 2 week cadence.
[16:39] <victorp> vanhoof ack
[16:40] <pedro_> victorp, as said, we need to talk with cr3 to know if that could be included on checkbox or not and the best way to do it
[16:40] <sconklin> I'd like to not be in an indefinite hold on these, and cert testing is more than we have had in the past. Can we even get a firm commitment for regressions testing time frame?
[16:40] <pedro_> victorp, he's the expert, so better to talk with him about it
[16:40] <skaet> sconklin,  go with lucid right now, and based on tomorrows results from maverick make a decision then?
[16:40] <victorp> sconklin - I agree
[16:41] <sconklin> Since we're talking about infrastructure questions, I think the answer to my question is no - we have no firm time frame, and I vote for shipping it
[16:41] <victorp> sconklin - +1
[16:41] <pitti> the old approach was to just leave it in proposed for 3 or 4 weeks and hoping for the best that we get told about regressions from the community
[16:41] <pitti> we can do that again for this round, of course
[16:42] <skaet> sconklin +1
[16:42] <sconklin> pitti: given that we'e been through the verification and cert testing, how do you feel about releasing Lucid now?
[16:42] <victorp> pitti - or until the next security update bumps the baking window
[16:42] <sconklin> It's effectively been in -proposed since UDS, except for the verification reverts
[16:42] <pitti> sconklin: it's only 5 days, and there are tons of changes
[16:42] <pitti> "now" seems exceptionally bold to me TBH
[16:43] <skaet> victorp, pitti - would like to get lucid out now, if its gone through cert, and get something out.
[16:43] <pitti> how about next monday? this gives us another week at least
[16:43] <sconklin> The agreement for the new process was that reverts due to lack of verification would not reset the -proposed bake time
[16:43] <bjf> pitti, the kernel changes that have been cooking for 5 days are just because of the reverts
[16:43] <vanhoof> pitti: this has been the same kernel (minus reverts) since ~Oct 20th
[16:44] <vanhoof> .37 was the first upload w/ this patchse
[16:44] <pitti> I see
[16:44] <vanhoof> *set
[16:44] <victorp> skaet _ I am in favour of going out, rather than wait for a community test that we dont know if it is happening
[16:44] <pitti> well, I can't say that I'm feeling good about it; I just wanted to say so, but if everyone else wants to push those out, then *shrug*
[16:44] <pitti> victorp: that's the precise attitude I do _not_ want us to get in to
[16:45] <pitti> "release it anyway, regardless of feedback"
[16:45] <pitti> (I know that we did test it on some machines in QA)
[16:45] <victorp> pitti -?
[16:45] <pitti> anyway, let's not bring that discussion up again, we had it at UDS
[16:45] <skaet> pitti,  it has had a lot of tire kicking in the hw cert lab at least, and we did have the prior window.
[16:46] <pitti> skaet: right, I didn't say that we didn't get feedback on this one
[16:46] <skaet> pitti,  ack.  ok, we ship lucid.   maverick tbd.
[16:46] <pitti> just about "I am in favour of going out, rather than wait for a community test"
[16:46] <pitti> it's a slippery slope
[16:46] <skaet> pitti, indeed.   we're feeling our way here.
[16:46] <victorp> pitti you missed -- that we dont know if it is happening
[16:46] <sconklin> I will say that I will feel better when we have the additional testing, but for now, I think this is the best we can do. And - we've had weeks of community tests, and one week of testing since the reverts
[16:47] <pitti> victorp: right; my point exactly :)
[16:47] <skaet> so, since sconklins out tomorrow,  who wants to be part of go/no go decision?
[16:47] <pitti> for the record -- I don't think that this is the best we can do
[16:47] <pitti> but I give in
[16:47] <skaet> for maverick.
[16:47] <sconklin> ok, who will update the tracking bugs for Lucid to verified?
[16:47] <bjf> i can make the call for the kernel sru team
[16:48] <sconklin> as a matter of process?
[16:48] <victorp> pitti - nevermind, that is not what I meant. As you said we talk about this at UDS at length. lets move on
[16:48] <bjf> skaet, ^
[16:48] <pitti> sconklin: I think we spoke about having a kind of "QA regression testing feedback bug" per upload, right?
[16:48] <vanhoof> just to confirm, the only remaining piece to the puzzle for maverick is cert testing of the -proposed kernel, yeah?
[16:48] <pitti> sconklin: does that exist for lucid? I guess that's the one we should flip to v-done then?
[16:48] <sconklin> pitti: there is one for each of maverick and lucid
[16:48] <pitti> good
[16:48] <skaet> pedro_, can you scan through the verified bugs for lucid are all reasonable at this stage?
[16:49] <sconklin> stand by and I'll find the bugs - Not sure whether they made the changelog
[16:49] <pedro_> skaet, yes, i'll have a look to those and report back to you
[16:49] <skaet> pedro,  thanks,  will give you and sconklin an action here.
[16:50] <skaet> to make sure that the bugs for maverick and lucid have been verified.
[16:50] <sconklin> Lucid testing tracking bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/677038
[16:50] <sconklin> Maverick: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/677021
[16:51] <skaet> bjf, thanks - will get together with you and victorp tomorrow morning and see where we are with maverick.   pitti, can you join us if I set up a meeting?
[16:51] <victorp> I see lucid has already the hwcert test on it
[16:51] <victorp> skaet - morning , US time?
[16:51] <pitti> skaet: I have desktop team meeting at 1630 UTC, before that is fine
[16:52] <skaet> victorp,  pitti - will aim for that window.
[16:52] <victorp> skaet - 3pm UTC is the HW Cert scrum
[16:52] <victorp> that needs to happen so I can give you an update
[16:52] <pitti> sconklin: I subscribed ubuntu-sru to 677038; it wasn't liked to the changelog, nor u-sru subscribed, so I didn't see it
[16:52] <skaet> [ACTION] skaet to set up meeting on maverick
[16:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  skaet to set up meeting on maverick
[16:53] <sconklin> that's all I have on the SRU kernels
[16:53] <sconklin> ..
[16:53] <skaet> [TOPIC] general SRU
[16:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  general SRU
[16:53] <pitti> sconklin: what do we do about -ec2, dove, etc?
[16:53] <skaet> there are lots of questions here, can all take an action to go through, and come back on next meeting.
[16:54] <pitti> sconklin, cjwatson: oh, and we need a d-i rebuild against -26
[16:54] <pitti> seems the current one in -proposed is against -25
[16:54] <cjwatson> can be done
[16:55] <skaet> zul - what is the server SRU report that should be used?   I found two of them?
[16:55] <sconklin> pitti: -ec2, mvl-dove have not been well discussed, and need to be
[16:55] <cjwatson> any chance of the current debian-installer going into -updates first though?
[16:55] <zul> skaet: hi...this is the one we use
[16:55] <pitti> cjwatson: yes, it's verified
[16:55] <cjwatson> the current images in -updates are broken
[16:55]  * skaet is planning at ending this at the hour... so we're in our 5 minute count down. ;)
[16:55] <pitti> just need to do that publishing exercise
[16:55] <zul> skaet:  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html
[16:55] <cjwatson> I can do that
[16:55] <pitti> cjwatson: thanks
[16:55] <skaet> zul,  thanks.
[16:55] <cjwatson> since I think I wrote the procedure :)
[16:55]  * pitti needs to leave in 3 mins, too
[16:56] <zul> skaet: the other one is really really old
[16:56] <skaet> any other questions?   here's the other actions I've noted.
[16:56] <skaet> [ACTION] cjwatson, apw, Keybuk, azul - to come up with resolution on upstart interaction and bug 554172
[16:56] <skaet> [ACTION]  victorp,  look at adding hardware cert reports with architectures as one of the pieces of info tracked for this
[16:56] <victorp> skaet - next SRU?
[16:56] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson, apw, Keybuk, azul - to come up with resolution on upstart interaction and bug 554172
[16:56] <MootBot> ACTION received:   victorp,  look at adding hardware cert reports with architectures as one of the pieces of info tracked for this
[16:57] <cjwatson> skaet: for the logs, could that upstart action be relative to bug 642555, please
[16:57] <skaet> cjwatson, ack
[16:57] <sconklin> victorp: we have a security update in the works, which looks like it will cause us to skip a cycle
[16:58] <skaet> victorp, sconklin - ok, lets deal with this offline
[16:58] <sconklin> ack
[16:58] <sconklin> ..
[16:58] <victorp> ack - just need a date
[16:58] <victorp> :)
[16:59] <victorp> skaet - do we have an action for that?
[16:59] <skaet> [ACTION] victorp, skaet, bjf to set date for next one.
[16:59] <MootBot> ACTION received:  victorp, skaet, bjf to set date for next one.
[16:59]  * skaet needs to work on typing speed.  ;)
[16:59] <sconklin> I'm away for the rest of this week - so bjf and skaet can figure it out
[16:59] <cjwatson> pitti: published
[16:59] <skaet> thanks everyone.   will see if we can crisp up a bit for the next meeting in 2 weeks time.
[16:59] <victorp> thanks!
[16:59] <sconklin> thanks everyone!
[16:59] <skaet> minutes will be posted with agenda.  :)
[17:00] <sconklin> thanks skaet
[17:00] <skaet> #endmeeting
[17:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
[17:00] <pitti> thanks everyoen