/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/22/#ubuntu-ops.txt

ubottuIn #ubuntu, rseward said: ubottu. I know it is EOL. But surely there must be a repo with the last set of .deb to bring it up to April 30th, 2010 updates.02:30
macough sanddbox is a pain in the ___02:49
IdleOneNow you can either follow the rules and guidelines or you can be banned02:54
sanddboxI disagree, now who do I consult?02:54
IdleOne!appeals02:54
ubottuIf you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page.02:54
sanddboxI am of course referncing the guideline "When disagreements occur, consult others"02:54
sanddboxWhy was i kicked from #ubuntu?02:55
IdleOneyou can consult the IRCC by following the link ubottu just gave you.02:55
sanddboxWhy was i kicked from #ubuntu?02:55
IdleOneyour attitude is poor and disruptive to the channel.02:55
IdleOnethat is why I banned you.02:55
sanddboxyour attitude is poor and disruptive to the community02:55
sanddboxi get what's going on02:56
IdleOneperhaps and you can bring that up to the IRCC if you like02:56
sanddboxi exercise my right to free speech and ask who to consult (per the guidelines)02:56
sanddboxand i get banned02:56
IdleOneyou have no right to free speech on irc02:56
sanddboxyou're destroying free speech as surely as obama is02:56
macono i think the +q was at the repeated insults02:56
macowhich, if you've read the rest of those two links you were given, you will see is not allowed02:56
IdleOnethe +q was for repeated insults and general disruptive behavior02:57
sanddboxmaco, i stopped the remarks after i was informed of the guidelines02:57
macoalso, the first amendment does not apply to the internet02:57
sanddboxyes it does02:57
sanddboxthe US controls the internet02:57
macoor to any form of censorship that is not imposed by the US Government02:57
macono it doesn't02:57
sanddboxit was made by DARPA02:57
macoits been a long time since anyone but private ISPs controlled it02:57
sanddboxplease, i don't want to get the cyber police involved02:57
IdleOneI think we are done here. You have the info you need to appeal my decision. Please part this channel02:57
macothe US Gov does not own Comcast, Verizon, etc. and i'm pretty sure the US doesnt control the Great Firewall of China02:58
IdleOne!ops | please remove sanddbox.03:02
ubottuplease remove sanddbox.: Help! Channel emergency! (ONLY use this trigger in emergencies) -  Tm_T, tritium, elky, Nalioth, tonyyarusso, imbrandon, PriceChild, Madpilot, Myrtti, mneptok, Pici, tsimpson, gnomefreak, jussi, topyli, or nhandler!03:02
ubottuIdleOne called the ops in #ubuntu-ops (please remove sanddbox.)03:02
sanddboxwhy can't I stay?03:02
IdleOneread the topic03:02
IdleOneno idle policy.03:02
sanddboxmy issue is still not dealt withj03:02
sanddboxi haven't gotten a reply for my online appeal03:03
IdleOneit won't be dealt with tonight.03:03
tonyyarussosanddbox: If you have anything relevant to address still we can do that, but I haven't seen one yet, so you'll want to get to it quick.03:03
tonyyarusso!appeals03:03
ubottuIf you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page.03:03
tonyyarusso^^ there's the process from here.03:03
macothats already been given03:03
tonyyarussoYeah, well.03:04
sanddboxthis environment feels hostile03:04
IdleOnebeen there done that. this ban will not be lifted by me anytime soon. IRCC is his next step.03:04
bazhanghe wanted clippy?03:06
macobazhang: it started there03:06
bazhangmaco, I just read up on it03:06
macothen some "read things in the most inflammatory way possible" when we got to what a "bot" is03:07
maco(saying "yes theres a virus in the channel" was so so so tempting at that point)03:07
bazhangperhaps a vm with win? to get clippy03:08
macoi said ms office03:09
macoand then ze ewwww'd at it03:09
bazhanghe's trying to get a cloak now to get around the ban03:11
macooh dear03:12
IdleOnewon't work03:12
macommm you did set it on host not nick03:12
IdleOneI set it on host, his attitude in that channel now won't get him a cloak03:13
macoah03:13
IdleOneleast I doubt it will03:13
bazhangor no, just trolling03:13
maco"why do you want a cloak?" "to get around a ban"03:13
IdleOneyou know when jordan finally gets ops, we will probably have to remind him to join here :)03:18
IdleOneheh03:18
bazhanghehe03:18
IdleOne:)03:18
macohang on.. rww should be allowed in here03:19
macoi was allowed here when i was just a #u-w op03:19
bazhangnew rules in town03:19
IdleOnemaco: rules got changed since then03:20
macooh confusing03:20
IdleOnebut he will be allowed soon enough (I hope)03:20
IdleOnerww and jordan_u +900003:20
ubotturww called the ops in #ubuntu (meng, mars__)05:57
Tm_Tooh, free speech -card!08:07
* Tm_T is reading logs08:07
topylielky: there is the occasional random "join this team" clicker but it's not that bad. about the same level with the number requests for technical support through my individual launchpad page08:27
elkytopyli, that's dropped a lot. we used to have almost daily09:09
jussialmost daily is a bit over the top - maybe weekly. but yeah, it has dropped significantly.09:33
elkyit was more than weekly less than daily.09:37
elkybut yeah, i'm not convinced you've managed to filter them out of the shortlist anyway.09:38
jussiI dont think we edited the list (unless someone did before I got to it)09:38
elkyjussi, well... if topyli is telling the truth and you get some drive-by applicants, it must have been shortlisted.09:39
topylino need, it wasn't that long. obviously we dropped some from the list that you saw, elky09:40
elkywhat list that I saw?09:40
elkyi'm referring to the list I responded to yesterday09:40
topyliyes that one09:40
elkyso you've dropped the one who didn't even bother to make a wiki page?09:41
topyliobviously not, since you saw that one :)09:41
jussiLadies and gents, still waiting on more IRCC nominations, so if you think youve got something to bring to the table, lets have your nominations!10:28
elkyhow many seats are we needing to fill?10:33
jussi210:35
elkyand how many nominations have been made?10:36
ikoniasecret10:37
elkyclearly10:37
ikoniano it is10:37
elkybecause sekrit hush hush election processes are apparently how we get the ircc to be more trusted...?10:38
topyli"too few". essentially, how many candidates we have and who they are should not affect your decision to run. we will know the names when it's time to vote10:38
elkytopyli, oh, it's not going to affect /my/ decision to run. I've already signed up to the race10:38
topyliyep10:38
elkyOooh, unless i wasn't suppsoed to say that.10:38
jussino, you are welcome to say, of course, just that we will not make comments on who is running until the time is up.10:39
topylioh i'm sure you're allowed to talk about your own decisons10:39
elkyi didn't ask /who/. I asked how many.10:39
topylithere might be a reason later to break down the number of candidates by "those who nominated on time," "those who eventually nominated during the extension," and "those on CC's eventual shortlist," but i don't see why we would do that. it's pretty much the CC's decision since they're the ones who appoint the ircc in the first place10:42
elkythis ridiculous secrecy and back-room dealing culture is going to end.10:42
topyliok10:43
elkythe ircc now is less trustworthy than the ircc I was on which was accused as being untrustworthy.10:43
elkyThe ircc now doesn't treat ops as people, it treats them as numbers to allocate to boxes for micromanaging. it's not healthy.10:45
topyliyou don't trust the ircc because it holds the election according to the charter set by the cc10:49
elkynot true. I don't trust the ircc because "we can't tell you" is the default answer to everything.10:49
elkyi don't trust the ircc because it doesn't listen to the ops anymore10:50
topylithat's not true either. we have told you many things10:50
elkyi don't trust the ircc because of how i've seen it behave, and how i've seen it neglect the actions that would let it know what the ops feel about their roles.10:51
elkyi don't trust the ircc because the ircc hasn't given me any reason to trust it.10:51
elkybut it's taken plenty of them away.10:52
jussielky: Im at work so answers are slow in coming, but care to be specific?10:52
elkyjussi, when is the last time you put yourself in a position where you could witness ops candidly discuss what being an op is like?10:53
jussielky: hrm?10:54
elkywhere do you interact with operators of channels in a manner in which they can express how they /really/ feel about things?10:54
jussielky: If you are asking about the "alt channel" -Ive already proposed that, and its on the next meeting agenda... ?10:55
topylimailing list, #ubuntu-irc-council, meetings, offhand. i'm not sure what you want10:56
elkytopyli, how on earth can one be candid while knowing they're being watched?10:56
topylithe channel is private. pm is supported too10:57
elkytopyli, nobody adhereing to the code of conduct can be truely candid there.10:58
topylioh10:58
elkyand to know what ops are feeling, you need to remove the code of conduct from the equation.10:58
topyliuh, no10:59
elkyuh, yes.10:59
elkyThere is no way to know how an op is feeling if they're forbidden from expressing it.11:01
jussielky: but ops are eloquent enough to express it within the CoC.11:02
elkyYou're fooling yourself if you really think that.11:03
Tm_TI slightly agree with elky, when expressing feelings, sstrong enforcing coc might be limiting11:03
Tm_Tmight, could, in some cases is11:03
elkyjussi, it's like asking a child to be honest while the child knows that what is said will be relayed to the parents.11:04
topylii'd prefer the child doesn't try to be civil just because s/he's afraid of parents11:05
elkytopyli, that's what the CoC does to conversations.11:05
elkyit forces the op to be civil for fear of the big bad CC11:05
elkyit's been demonstrated to do so.11:06
topylithe metaphor is not very good though, children can't be fired if they're naughty. upholding the coc on the other hand is the ops' *job*11:06
elkytopyli, no, it's the ops *HOBBY*11:06
topylithat said, i don't mind if you slip from the coc while in pm with me11:06
topylior maybe even in the ircc's private channel11:07
elkythe IRCC shouldn't be treating staff like the ops owe the ircc. that's another thing the ircc is doing to lose my trust11:07
jussielky: some more info on that one also?11:07
elkyer, ops like the ops. See! you make us think as though we're bound to this place to the point we call ourselves staff.11:08
elkyjussi, your micromanaging. your grand "report your away days" thing.11:08
elkyand if any of this is news to you, then that's a whole new reason for me to lose trust.11:09
topylielky: sure, we're volunteers. upholding the coc on irc channels is a job we've taken upon ourselves because we want to, so it's different from wage labor. still i don't get why i should express my feelings in a rude way even if i'm unhappy11:10
topyliwhich, btw, i am atm :)11:11
elkytopyli, maybe i should have scarequoted "civil" then. The coc enforces a pretty restrictive standard.11:11
popeyelky: People are unable to express themselves within the CoC?11:11
elkythere is no way one can fully express themselves and not be screamed down over coc. mentioning names is so frowned upon that we can't trust that we can say things about people.11:12
topylinot really. i like jdub's "don't be an asshat" definition of the coc, even if breaks the coc, strictly speaking11:12
elkypopey, i cannot, for example, say an op is deficient in carrying out their role without being yelled at for personal attacks.11:12
popeyYou can.11:12
topylisure you can11:13
elkypopey, i've done it before and got screamed at, so no, i cannot.11:13
jussielky: absolutely you can11:13
jussielky: we have #ubuntu-irc-council expressly for items like that.11:13
elkyjussi, which i dont visit anymore since i get kicked out of before getting a response11:13
popeyThe CC gets people complaining about other peoples conduct, and we take those seriously, we don't accuse the accuser of being in breach of the CoC11:13
elkypopey, i must get special treatment then.11:14
popeyI don't know (or have forgotten or mislaid the memory) of the specifics of what you're talking about, sorry.11:14
elkyi'm serious. i've never been able to criticise someone and not get yelled at for it.11:14
popeyOf course there's ways and means of doing that. But as I say, I don't know the specifics.11:15
topylii don't remember yelling at anyone, but maybe my memory is selective11:16
popey"Joe is an asshat, and can't manage an irc channel because he sucks" vs "Joe has consistently shows an inability to control channel #x [citation] [citation]"11:16
popey(I am not pointing a finger at you elky, just stating the bleeding obvious)11:16
Tm_Tit's breaching coc, but merely the fear of doing so that restricts, I can see11:23
Tm_T...scroll <311:23
ubottuFloodBot1 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (Sargun_Screen appears to be abusive - 4)13:15
ikoniahmmm, that didn't set a ban forward14:47
IdleOnemorning16:56
Tm_Tevening (:16:58
ubottuIn ubottu, rww said: !slashd is <reply> The -d switch to update-manager and do-release-upgrade is for upgrading to unreleased development versions of Ubuntu, NOT the current stable version of Ubuntu. See !upgrade for stable release upgrade instructions.19:36
rww^^ that could probably be worded better, but I keep seeing this mistake made in #ubuntu, so it might be nice to factoid it.19:36
Picirww: I agree.19:38
rwwPici: I'll get to that floodbot doc today, btw. Apologies for the delay19:39
charlie-tcaheh, but it does work to upgrade easily with modifying files from 10.04 to 10.1019:40
rwwuntil someone who's actually running 10.10 runs it and ends up on natty. and then we all cry.19:42
PiciWell, we won't cry, they will.19:42
rwwbest to just stick to The Right Way To Do It, imho. same reason we don't recommend modifying sources.list and aptitude dist-upgrade19:42
rwwPici: the all-caps ranting about how Ubuntu sucks is painful to my ears :(19:43
Picioh :(19:43
ubottuguntbert called the ops in #ubuntu (nico888)20:35
ikoniawhat's going on tonigth in #u ?20:45
PiciIts a full moon ;)20:52
ikoniaRottNKorpse's attitude stunk in pm20:54
ikoniahe feels it appropriate to mock users because "he's right" and won't follow guidelines as it's supressing his freedom of speach20:54
mneptokIMO, behavior in a PM without commensurate behavior on-channel does not warrant a removal20:54
ikoniamneptok: his behaviour in #ubuntu was unacceptable, so he was quieted, his follow up in pm making it clear he would not follow the channels guideslines, got him removed20:55
ikoniaI'm hopeful that now he realises his attitude won't be tollerated, it will change and I can lift the ban20:56
mneptokwell, it is a rotten corpse20:56
mneptokIME, zombies are not fast learners20:56
PiciCan someone keep an eye on -server for a few minutes, I need to drive home.21:08
ikoniayes21:08
ikoniaalthough I don't have ops there21:08
PiciHm, I thought you did.21:08
ikoniaI've been trying to be more active in -server after urseuls comments21:08
ikoniaPici: it got lost with the launchpad re-shuffle/mess around21:08
PiciYou should be active there, you know more about server stuff than I do ;)21:09
ikoniaha ha21:09
ikoniaI'm trying to be more after it was pointed out we are not helping new users out well21:09
mneptoki think i used to have ops there, but i don't now.21:11
ikoniamneptok: there was a messing around with the groups on launchpad21:11
ikoniaI just don't think it's been tidied up21:11
mneptokstart the job with the full intention of finishing it completely, or don't start. ;)21:12
ikoniait will be fine, most stuff can be sorted out any way, drive home21:12
mneptokheh. soren has +o in -server, and has not worked for Canonical in months21:12
ikoniayou don't have to work there to get +o21:13
ikoniahe's pretty active i nthe server group21:13
mneptokbecause he's working for Rackspace. poached by Rick Clark. :)21:13
tsimpson|n800ikonia: there was no messing with regards to the LP teams and access lists, we only imported the access lists to LP. nothing in the reverse direction22:22
ikoniatsimpson|n800: I wonder what went wrong22:22
ikoniatsimpson|n800: (not with what you did)22:22
ikoniaI'll just re-apply to the team, seems the simplest way22:23
tsimpson|n800I don't know, we havent done any "automatic" access management22:25
ikoniajust re-applied, seems easy way to resolve it22:25
IdleOneif you need more eyes in -server I'd be happy to idle there, in fact I was idling there till znc got restarted22:27
Pici<.<22:59
ikonia?22:59
=== apachelogger is now known as FanOfNightrose
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
=== FanOfNightrose is now known as apachelogger
=== apachelogger is now known as phononlogger
h00kCongrats to the new ops.23:21
Tm_Twut 'appened?23:22
popeyooo yes, congrats to the new ops!23:24
elkyOh yay, an open invitation for all and any to apply to be ops of here.23:26
* elky headdesks.23:26
Tm_Telky: ?23:26
elky"... and seeing lots of applications23:27
elkyfor the positions in #ubuntu-ops"23:27
elkyI can't imagine how that's going to end well.23:27
PiciUh. You need to be an operator before you can apply to be an Ubuntu op.23:27
Tm_Telky: wasn't any issue last time, considering just one applied23:27
Picier, I mean you need to be an operator somewhere before you can be an #ubuntu-ops op.23:27
elkyThat's ridiculously vague. We could have the Palin greeter be op here now.23:28
Tm_Toh, nice names in new ops list, congrats all23:28
Tm_Telky: if IRCC choose so, yes23:34
elkyTm_T, and considering the ircc decided that someone who greets sarahs with "hi palin" is suitible for ops anywhere... wow, the trust I can get from /that/ is astounding.23:35
Picielky: I suggest you calm down.23:36
* elky raises an eyebrow.23:36
* h00k offers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hj9H4Ku9sQ23:55
* mneptok offers up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbOjxU6OpoM23:58

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