/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/23/#ubuntu-desktop.txt

bcurtiswxrobert_ancell, no natty yet.  wow. :P00:08
robert_ancellbcurtiswx, in 38 minutes... I've been running it in a VM though00:09
bcurtiswxrobert_ancell, i did that for a while in previous releases, but with all these graphics changes, VM's make testing and seeing the changes tough00:10
bcurtiswxlike having unity change to default, or the switch eventually to wayland00:10
RAOFpitti: Bryce has some mesa packaging changes for Wayland, and I was going to roll them up.  That's “sometime this week”, though, so I could do mesa now as space is tight.00:15
* robert_ancell reboots, you may or may not see me back here soon00:39
RAOFThat seems like it's worked ok :)00:42
robert_ancellrickspencer3, I see what you mean about crashing... compiz crashes on startup00:42
rickspencer3:/00:43
rickspencer3robert_ancell, under Unity, or just alone?00:44
robert_ancellbonus feature of the menubar being able to drag the window - you can work witthout a window manager00:44
robert_ancellit's just in standard gnome, but I didn't seem to have a unity option in gdm00:44
rickspencer3compiz works "ok" for me, but on Friday, Unity crashed it too much00:44
rickspencer3robert_ancell, I think you need to install unity, than turn on the plugin in that compiz plugin manager thing00:45
robert_ancellIf I run compiz --replace, I get "couldn't load plugin 'decoration'", and similar for png, svg, compozite, neg00:45
robert_ancellunity appears to be installed00:45
rickspencer3huh00:45
rickspencer3that's pretty bad00:45
rickspencer3what graphics hardware?00:45
rickspencer3I'm on i965, and I even get wobbly windows00:46
robert_ancellATI M9200:46
RAOFr... 300?00:46
rickspencer3oh00:46
rickspencer3hmmm00:47
Sarvattit's completely busted on the nvidia blob too http://sarvatt.com/downloads/xsession-errors.txt00:47
rickspencer3robert_ancell, RAOF can you guys help the compiz team get to the bottom of these crashers00:47
rickspencer3?00:47
RAOFWow, that's surprising.00:47
rickspencer3at least make sure their are bugs filed00:47
rickspencer3but whatever you can do to resolve these quickly00:48
robert_ancellwill try00:48
robert_ancellRAOF, what's the best way to confirm my video driver?00:49
RAOFrobert_ancell: “glxinfo | grep renderer” is fairly good.00:49
RAOFXorg.0.log has more details, though.00:50
robert_ancellOpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI R600 (RV710 9553) 20090101  TCL DRI200:50
RAOFOoookay.00:51
RAOFWhat's the compiz error you're getting?00:51
robert_ancellthe first one is the failure to load the decoration plugin00:52
robert_ancelland eventually it segfaults00:52
Sarvattyeah gtk-window-decorator segfaults quite often here, hit 37 segfaults in a 5 minute period the other day but haven't had time to look at whats going on00:53
robert_ancelldmesg shows the segfault is in libopengl.so00:53
Sarvatttakes out window decorations every time it does00:54
RAOFWhy do *none* of my systems *ever* exhibit these widespread bugs? :)00:54
cyphermoxhowdy!00:54
robert_ancellwhat hw do you have?  This is a standard Dell Studio, about 1 year old00:54
jasoncwarnerRAOF: because you have the perfect 50%/bell curve system? :P00:55
cyphermoxrobert_ancell, dell studio hybrid or dell studio?00:55
RAOFGM45, Radeon evergreen has the moste testing.00:55
RAOF(by me)00:55
robert_ancellcyphermox, standard Dell Studio 1555, bought off the website00:56
cyphermoxah,00:56
RAOFSarvatt: That xsession backtrace isn't nVidia related; it's a libbamf problem.00:56
SarvattI meant it was busted on my machine with the blob, sorry :)00:56
RAOF'sok :)00:57
robert_ancellok, I'm going to enable fglrx and see if that solves it00:57
robert_ancellRAOF, so I guess I'm going to be a guinea pig for drivers from you?00:58
RAOFHm.  I'm not running from the Unity PPA anymore; this is stock Natty packages.00:58
RAOFrobert_ancell: I guess so!00:58
RAOFYou're probably on i386, aren't you?00:59
robert_ancellamd6400:59
RAOFWoot!00:59
robert_ancellok, installed, I'll be back01:00
Sarvattthe gtk-window-decorator segfaults will be in ~/.xsession-errors01:01
Sarvattah too late01:01
RAOFHm.  Has the settings migration code landed in compiz?01:02
RAOFThat might explain my differing results; I switched before the migration code and manually transferred my settings.01:03
SarvattI had to delete ~/.config/compiz* to get a desktop up on both natty systems01:05
RAOFUnity likes r600g quite a lot, it seems.  Ah.  Except for blur.01:06
RAOFHm.  Given Robert's continued absence I'm guessing Unity doesn't like fglrx much.01:08
robert_ancellvery weird, my bios took *minutes* to start.  Running fglrx now, but same problem01:09
RAOFGot a ~/.xsession-errors for us?01:09
robert_ancellhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/535412/01:12
robert_ancellweird, when I run firefox it seals the keyboard focus from all applications01:12
robert_ancellsteals01:13
RAOFHm.  Ok.  My compiz doesn't use the gconf backend, it uses ini.01:17
RAOFHm.  And I *don't* load the decoration plugin.01:18
RAOFThis suggests that old gconf settings might be a problem.01:18
Sarvattsure you aren't using a PPA version? :)01:19
RAOFInstalled: 1:0.9.2.1+glibmainloop-0ubuntu301:19
RAOFYup, I am now sure :)01:20
robert_ancellnope, standard 1:0.9.2.1+glibmainloop-0ubuntu301:20
SarvattBackend     : gconf here too01:20
AmaranthRAOF: To be fair blur does require the incredibly advanced capabilities of... fragment programs01:21
AmaranthRAOF: Don't try to enable to gconf backend01:21
RAOFAmaranth: I wasn't going to; I was going to get them to try enabling the ini backend.01:22
AmaranthThe gconf backend will pump the glib mainloop if ccp doesn't detect the glib plugin loaded01:22
AmaranthBut core also pumps the glib mainloop01:22
AmaranthSo... deadlock01:22
RAOFrobert_ancell, Sarvatt: So, why not try setting “ini” in ~/.config/compiz-1/compizconfig/config01:23
Sarvattwhy is it not the default if it has problems?01:23
AmaranthThe ini backend is the default01:24
Sarvatthas problems otherwise01:24
robert_ancellRAOF, looks like you were right, I did a recursive-unset on my old compiz settings and now it works01:24
AmaranthIf core.xml specifies the ccp plugin it'll use the ini backend by default and ccsm will still work01:24
RAOFAmaranth: Where's core.xml?01:25
robert_ancellold settings:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/535414/01:25
AmaranthRAOF: /usr/share/compiz/01:25
robert_ancellthere is also some sort of redraw error when I switch windows.  The window doesn't seem to redraw until it is resized01:26
robert_ancellI'm going to disable fglrx and come back01:26
Sarvattwell, fresh maverick install -> upgrade to natty = using gconf01:27
AmaranthSarvatt: For compiz? That's not actually possible01:28
RAOFWell, we've got two datapoints suggesting that it's not only possible, but it happens.01:28
Amaranth0.9 uses a different path for the compizconfig settings file so the gconf setting won't carry over and if it somehow did compiz would deadlock01:29
RAOFCheck out their xsession-errors - http://paste.ubuntu.com/535412/ , for example.01:29
AmaranthOOo is currently eating my machine01:29
AmaranthMight take me a minute :)01:30
AmaranthOh, someone is using unsupported third party scripts to start compiz01:30
AmaranthThat's compiz-check or whatever01:30
AmaranthI have no idea what it might break01:30
RAOFI'm pretty sure that's not compiz-check.01:31
AmaranthThat's not compiz itself and the shell script we used to use didn't print anything like that either01:31
RAOFMy /usr/bin/compiz is a binary file, and *I* get that output.01:31
Sarvatthttp://sarvatt.com/downloads/xsession-errors.txt that one was a fresh maverick install and update to natty immediately after01:32
RAOFExcept with “ini”, and it works.01:32
Amarantharg, did smspillaz change something?01:32
RAOFI suspect the answer is “yes”01:33
robert_ancellok, so compiz boots now, but still no unity..01:33
RAOFHave you enabled it yet?01:33
robert_ancellisn't it supposed to be automatic?01:33
RAOFI'm not sure; I don't think that switch has been flicked.01:33
AmaranthOk, OOo seems to have given up01:33
RAOFAmaranth: But not relieved it's vice-like grip on your system? :)01:34
AmaranthIt's using 874MB of RAM01:34
RAOFrobert_ancell: You know how to enable it, right?01:35
robert_ancellRAOF, nope01:35
RAOFFire up ccsm (installing it if necessary, it's in the compizconfig-settings-manager package) and scroll down to enable the unity plugin; it's right at the bottom.01:36
RAOFHm.  I may have broken this mac bluetooth mouse while trying to clean the scroll-ball.  Boo.01:36
AmaranthIs this a PPA?01:36
RAOFNo - packages straight out of Natty.01:37
TheMusoI use a fresh user for compiz/unity testing. :)01:40
RAOFWhich might be why you haven't seen problems :)01:41
TheMusoheh01:41
TheMusoJust a suggestion. :)01:41
Amaranth_I upgraded from 0.8 to 0.9 just fine01:49
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
AmaranthI think I've killed kword too01:49
robert_ancellRAOF, Now i'm running some weird broken hybrid of GNOME and unity, uh, help?01:50
RAOFHah.01:50
RAOFIn what way is it borken?01:50
RAOFOh, you've still got some gnome-panels?01:51
robert_ancellwell, I have a gnome-panel underneath the unity panel, and the nautilus bg.  i.e. is gnome-session aware this is unity?01:51
RAOFThe nautilus BG is intentional, AFAIK.  I don't think gnome-session is aware, and it shouldn't be, because the Unity you've got is incomplete.01:52
RAOF(If you didn't have a gnome-panel running, Alt-F2 wouldn't work, and so you wouldn't be able to launch anything not already on your Unity panel)01:52
RAOFI presume the next Unity release will actually allow one to launch arbitrary apps, by fixing the places :)01:53
AmaranthYou know, unity is actually the way compiz was meant to be used01:53
* robert_ancell shakes hand at rickspencer3 for suggesting this :)01:54
AmaranthTrying unity?01:54
robert_ancellit seems a little broken at the moment...01:54
RAOFrobert_ancell: Oooh, ooh!  Could you try alt-tabbing?01:54
AmaranthUh oh01:54
robert_ancellRAOF, thanks for that...01:55
AmaranthDid it crash?01:55
RAOFAh, so that's not just broken on Evergreen, then?01:55
robert_ancelleverything broke, I've manually started metacity now01:55
RAOF:)01:55
robert_ancellmy gnome-panel has slowly lost all its applets, it keeps complaining they're all broken01:56
robert_ancellok, I'm off for lunch, be back in a bit01:56
AmaranthWhoa, kword has loaded my 23MB doc file and is only using 359MB of RAM01:56
RAOFrobert_ancell: If you'd like alt-tab to work, the mesa in http://cooperteam.net/Packages should work.01:57
AmaranthOh, but it's only actually loaded 5 pages of it so far...01:57
bcurtiswxunity doesn't work for me either02:04
bcurtiswxATI Radeon graphics card02:04
bcurtiswxthe ubuntu logo supposedly would be clickable to show another screen.. but ATM it does nothing02:06
bcurtiswxas soon as i close the ccsm it crashes02:07
RAOFWell, the Ubuntu logo doing nothing is a known deficiency, at least according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/InstallationGuide02:10
TheMusoRAOF: yes I originally had crashes with compiz, smspillaz suggested I turn off mipmapping for the switcher plugins, which helped. Running a RV770 here.02:15
cyphermoxjasoncwarner1, to answer your question, I was able to install compizconfig-settings-manager then enable the unity plugin in ccsm02:18
rickspencer3robert_ancell, now just get it to stop crashing!02:18
cyphermoxI would think it's due to be enabled by default eventually, but it more or less work... though I now lose NM-applet if it's enabled :'(02:18
RAOFTheMuso: Ok, thanks for that.  I thought the mipmapping problem was restricted to Evergreen cards, which aren't going to be well supported by r600c anyway (and r600g works fine)02:18
RAOFI see I should start fixing that mipmapping stuff.02:19
jasoncwarner1cyphermox: thanks...installing now...02:20
bcurtiswxwell, Is unity really planned on being default by alpha1 ?02:27
bcurtiswxdoesn't seem like a good idea IMO if its trie02:27
bcurtiswxtrue*02:27
RAOFI don't know; #ayatana probably does.02:30
bcurtiswxOK :) thx02:34
TheMusoI'd also say that Didrocks would have a better idea of that as well.02:35
RAOFI'd *hope* he's asleep now, though.02:36
TheMusoI know didrocks and DX were discussing technical aspects of the fallback plan last night.02:36
bcurtiswxyeah, hes over in the UK, right?02:37
TheMusoFrance02:37
bcurtiswxthen yes, he's halfway through his night by now02:37
=== virtuald is now known as leagris
=== leagris is now known as virtuald
=== asac_ is now known as asac
robert_ancellgrr, my visa card must have got copied at UDS - it got cancelled due to a dodgy US transaction03:05
RAOFTime to go over my transaction statement, is it? :(03:08
robert_ancellwell, I guess it could have been copied from any country, but it never hurts03:11
TheMusoI already had that happen to me late last year, don't want it to happen again, so yeah, good idea.03:25
TheMuso...and to think we are going to the same hotel as UDS Lucid for the sprint in January.03:25
TheMusoWhich is where I suspect the copy was made..03:26
pittiGood morning07:55
pittiRAOF: mesa> it's not "this week" urgent, but would be nice for alpha-107:55
didrocksgood morning07:58
=== almaisan-away is now known as al-maisan
rodrigo_morning08:37
didrockshey rodrigo_, how are you?08:37
rodrigo_didrocks, a bit sleepy still :)08:37
didrocks:)08:37
rodrigo_but fine otherwise, you?08:38
didrocksI'm fine thanks, it's snowing a lot outside :)08:38
rodrigo_oh, cool!08:38
didrocksyeah \o/08:38
rodrigo_do you ski?08:39
didrocksI ski, but not a lot (like 3/5 days per year), enough to enjoy it :)08:40
didrocksyou?08:40
aradidrocks, show? already? where are you based?08:41
didrocksara: I'm currently near Annecy (in the Alps), will be finally based in Lyon next month :)08:41
aradidrocks, that makes sense then :)08:42
rodrigo_didrocks, yes, I do08:42
didrocksara: right :)08:42
rodrigo_didrocks, I asked because usually people hate snow, except if they ski :)08:42
rodrigo_hey ara08:43
didrocksrodrigo_: ahah, that's more or less true. People especially hate snow in towns (it's true that it's getting dirty very quick)08:43
arahey rodrigo_ :)08:43
rodrigo_ara, no snow yet in Berlin?08:53
ararodrigo_, not yet, but they say it will snow this week08:57
rodrigo_ara, cool, although I guess you don't like it much?08:58
ararodrigo_, I will love it! I never lived in a city where it snows!08:59
rodrigo_ah cool then08:59
ararodrigo_, I might hate in two months, maybe... but right now, let it show!08:59
rodrigo_:)08:59
seb128hey there!09:00
rodrigo_hi seb12809:00
seb128hey rodrigo_, ara09:00
seb128how are you?09:01
rodrigo_seb128, fine, thanks, you?09:01
arahey seb128, fine thanks! yourself?09:01
seb128I'm fine thanks09:02
didrockssalut seb12809:03
seb128lut didrocks09:04
rodrigo_seb128, https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/ubuntu/natty/gnome-applets/no-more-deprecated/+merge/4149409:05
seb128rodrigo_, oh nice, I wanted to check where you got with those09:05
rodrigo_seb128, don't approve it though, the invest applet crashes with gtk2 gir and hangs with gtk3 gir09:06
seb128is that new?09:06
rodrigo_so trying to find where the problem is, I think it's the gtk2 gir09:06
rodrigo_seb128, I could submit just the null applet part, but I've been holding this to submit both at the same time09:07
rodrigo_seb128, what do you mean new?09:07
seb128did it work at some point and got broken by a gtk or gir update?09:07
rodrigo_no, nver worked for me09:08
seb128ok09:08
rodrigo_I asked in #introspection, and the suggestion was that it seemed gtk2 gir was broken09:08
seb128why did you comment the silent applet cleaning patch from the serie?09:08
rodrigo_seb128, ah, still needing a rebase09:08
seb128rodrigo_, we don't want to depends on gtk3 yet though09:08
rodrigo_yeah09:08
rodrigo_and it can't use gtk3, libpanel-applet-3 is gtk209:09
seb128right09:09
rodrigo_seb128, maybe you can try it to see if you have the same crash as I do?09:09
seb128I can09:09
rodrigo_running /usr/lib/gnome-applets/invest-applet should give you the error09:10
seb128hum, micahg, interesting email on the list09:21
seb128not sure I like issues being pointed by Cc-ing other people before asking the concerned team though09:21
micahgseb128: I'm sorry, i wasn't sure what to do09:22
micahgseb128: I'll be sure to check with you next time I see an issue09:22
rodrigo_seb128, can you tell me which package the files in /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/gtk-2.0/gi/overrides/ belong to?09:23
rodrigo_they seem to not belong to any package, and that's where the applet fails09:24
rodrigo_seb128, or python2.709:24
seb128rodrigo_, should be python-gobject09:25
rodrigo_ah, ok09:25
seb128micahg, thanks09:25
seb128micahg, the people have been added to the team to be able to use the GNOME3 ppa09:25
huatsmorning09:26
seb128micahg, we never really excerced the policy you pointed and I forgot about it09:26
micahgseb128: right, I figured as much, can I suggest separating out the uploaders from the PPA/bzr committers, we do this in the Mozilla team which allowed me to contribute heavily well before getting upload rights09:27
seb128is there any way to do that or do we need a new ppa team then?09:27
micahgseb128: no, you can keep the current team, just create a new uploaders team09:28
seb128well then we need a new team09:28
micahgwe should probably ask cjwatson first, but I think that's the way to go09:28
seb128we can't have different acls for code and ppa in the same team right?09:28
micahgseb128: right, AFAIK09:28
seb128ok, need some discussions09:28
seb128well I though in the current situation we don't really need that09:29
seb128we can just probably get rodrigo_ and mterry approved for the team09:29
micahgright, I guess it depends how green the contributors generally are to packaging when they're hired09:30
seb128micahg, well that ppa is the official GNOME3 one09:32
seb128the things landing there will go to natty09:32
seb128we probably want to give upload rights to people who should be trusted for uploads to ubuntu09:35
micahgright, but there's a difference between trusted to not be malicious and trusted to not break things09:40
seb128in this case we want both for the ppa09:42
RAOFLike packaging a gcr with a new ABI but not changing the package name?09:42
RAOF:)09:42
micahgheh09:42
seb128right09:43
seb128rodrigo_ still need some reviewing09:43
seb128rodrigo_, no offense to your work btw09:43
rodrigo_yes, I only upload/Merge stuff after approval09:43
seb128it's just that such issues are sort of basic library packaging rules09:43
rodrigo_seb128, no, no offense taken :)09:43
RAOFLibraries are hard.09:43
seb128well basis are not so hard09:44
seb128like having the naming matching the soname09:44
seb128checking abi breakages is harder09:45
chrisccoulsonhmmmm, more toolchain breakage! http://launchpadlibrarian.net/59475228/buildlog_ubuntu-natty-i386.xulrunner-1.9.2_1.9.2.13%2Bbuild1%2Bnobinonly-0ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz09:49
RAOFchrisccoulson: It must be so much fun to have a package so sensitive to build breakage ;)09:50
micahgchrisccoulson: I saw a similar break in the PPA for xul 2.0 that I thought you fixed09:51
chrisccoulsonRAOF, yeah, it's a lot of fun ;)09:53
chrisccoulsonmicahg, i don't think i fixed anything like this yet09:53
pittiah, ccsm is indeed quite nice -- I get focus-follows-mouse again, plus my keybindings, plus my 2x2 workspaces09:58
pittistill doesn't solve the upgrade problem, though09:58
seb128pitti, how did you get your keybindings?09:58
pittiseb128: the one I'm missing most is Alt+B to lower the current window09:59
seb128pitti, the recent update which activates gnomecompat and vpswitcher should solve that?09:59
pittiseb128: no, they didn't09:59
seb128you had to change the backend to gconf for it?09:59
pittiwhen I switched from metacity to compiz again this morning, everything was still broken09:59
pittiseb128: I did enable the gnome compat plugin manually before, though09:59
seb128well that's different from upgrading09:59
seb128your config can't be consider as upgradable10:00
didrocksthere is no way to change the list of default plugins once you are upgraded10:00
seb128you got in a custom state by fixing things manually10:00
pittiright, just now10:00
didrockseven before, it doesn't change the list of plugins10:00
pittibut before that I only touched ccsm once to manually enable "gnome compat"10:00
didrocksso, the list of plugin is always copied and considered "custom"10:00
seb128well what didrocks says is that the migration happens once when you install 0.910:00
seb128so if you upgraded to a buggy version you are screwed10:01
seb128next updates will not fix it for you10:01
pittiI see10:01
pittiso if I'd restore my maverick configuration now and upgrade again, it should work?10:01
didrockssame issue with gnome-panel and others…10:01
seb128pitti, not perfectly yet10:01
didrockspitti: well I'm just testing this :)10:01
pittididrocks: nice :)10:01
seb128but some of the issues are fixed yes10:01
didrocksand we will add tomorrow the profiles10:01
pittiseb128: ok, I'm glad to hear that; thanks for the heads-up10:01
seb128pitti, yw ;-)10:01
seb128congrats to didrocks10:02
* pitti hugs didrocks10:02
seb128he did a rocking job on getting the new compiz in10:02
* didrocks hugs pitti10:02
seb128we get very few upgrade issues10:02
seb128just a few settings glitches but that easy to workaround10:02
didrockswell, hope to remove every glitches + adding the profile for tomorrow :)10:02
seb128;-)10:02
didrocksbut this gnome-wm thing makes me crazy, but we can't remove it, it seems…10:03
seb128why does it make you crazy?10:03
didrocksseb128: I think we should try to remove it, this wrapper use alternatives that we don't use anymore, it's launched by the "required_componenents/windowmananger" gconf key, but gnome-appearance-properties overwrites it to metacity or compiz…10:04
didrocksso, basically, it's just use until you change it in gnome-appeareance-properties which has a different logic then, doesn't look nice :)10:05
seb128no it's not?10:06
seb128the wrapper has cases for other wm out of those10:06
seb128it just has logic to respect the GNOME config if there is one10:07
didrocksseb128: right, but gnome-appearance-properties shouldn't overwrite the wrapper launch then, so that we always use the wrapper and tweak the secondary keys10:07
didrocks(also, we still have patch for dapper update…)10:08
seb128well arguably we are faster by overwriting the wrapper10:08
didrocksyeah, but we have another code path and such… for instance, I don't really quite well understand why people having gnome-wm, on compiz update, seems to have metacity overwritten… (still need confirming)10:09
seb128there is no point to run a shell wrapper at each login to start a known wm10:09
didrockswell, that's what we do for gdm :)10:09
seb128well maybe we should fix what we do for gdm then?10:09
seb128rather than adding slow code in the session10:10
seb128I'm not a fan of adding shell scripts to the session when not needed10:10
seb128it's just costing login time10:10
didrocksI wanted to whip it out at first…10:10
seb128we had to work hard enough to spare some10:10
didrocksbut if people don't have compiz, they won't have the fallback10:10
seb128well we could argue that if you get out of the default install enough, ie uninstall compiz, it's your job to fix the session10:11
didrockswe could do that for gdm, as it seems xfce people are just running an autostart .desktop file for their wm, so we can change the "mandatory" key10:11
didrocksso, you would be in favor to remove gnome-wm definitively?10:12
seb128not sure, I need to think about it a bit10:12
seb128not removing it in any case10:12
seb128just not using it by default10:13
seb128we still need it for upgrades10:13
seb128user configs might be set on it10:13
didrocksyeah, that's what I meant "removing == changing the required_component key to compiz for user session and metacity for gdm"10:13
seb128since we don't have a nice way to change user gconf configs on upgrades10:13
didrocksseb128: as a side note, I'm curious, why setting metacity as default on user upgrade for dapper? compiz wasn't still the default IIRC?10:14
seb128what?10:14
seb128oh10:14
seb128I think because it was the default winmanager by then10:15
seb128we didn't want to force compiz for upgraders10:15
seb128we still wanted to default to what people had before upgrading10:15
seb128less risky way10:15
seb128"keep what people had and let them opt in if they want"10:15
didrocksseb128: oh ok, let upgrade get metacity, for new install compiz?10:15
didrocksok :)10:15
seb128didrocks, correct10:16
didrocksI was curious about it :)10:16
didrocksso, it seems you deal with that in the upgrade for user gconf key, touching /var/lib/gnome-session/dapper-upgrade after the gnome-session upgrade10:16
didrocksI'm still thinking do we want compiz or not, as if it's not the case, people upgrading won't have gnome-panel, neither unity10:17
seb128we can drop those hacks now10:17
didrocksyeah, it's leftover for merges10:17
seb128didrocks, why would people not get gnome-panel on upgrade?10:17
seb128didrocks, ?10:20
didrocksseb128: because with unity in the default session, we don't need gnome-panel, so removing it as a required_components10:21
vishdidrocks: Bug #671776 is what you were looking for :)10:22
ubot2Launchpad bug 671776 in unity (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "NetworkManager applet not shown with applications view (affects: 1) (heat: 208)" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/67177610:22
seb128didrocks, ok, need some thinking10:22
didrocksvish: oh thanks! can you put it as a duplicate?10:23
vishdidrocks: sure.. np..10:23
didrocksseb128: well, basically, I have a patch on gnome-session to tell "ok, gnome-panel isn't a required component, don't respawn it"10:23
didrocksso, we will be able to let it that way10:24
didrocksbut sounds hackish to kill it at start once unity is there10:24
seb128right, not to mention that we want to respawn it in the 2d session10:24
didrocksseb128: well, the 2d session is a different session, we can let it as a required_componenent10:25
didrockswith the gconf paths10:25
seb128well unity session fallback if you want10:25
seb128like unity session but were unity start is failing10:25
didrocksright10:25
didrocksso, the hack to readd it doesn't work10:25
didrocksas discussed yesterday10:26
didrocksit can't match the app and the client on dbus10:26
didrocksI tried to find a way to tell "hey hey, it's the same"10:26
didrocksbut didn't work very well10:26
seb128could you do an email about that with all the scenario to take in account?10:26
seb128like upgrades using compiz, upgrades not using it, unity session where unity is not working, 2d session10:27
seb128I think it need some thinking out of IRC with a summary10:27
seb128we might get ideas on the list10:27
seb128it would for sure help me to have a summary of cases and some time to think about it10:27
didrockshum, ok… hope that we can deal with that quite quickly as alpha1 is closed :)10:28
seb128doesn't need to be this week10:28
didrocksclose*10:28
seb128well if the upgrades are not perfect in a1 so be it10:28
seb128it's only a110:28
didrocksright, but with the profile not being able to upgrade in compiz, if we need some tweaking there, that will be better to take that early10:28
seb128well I didn't want to add stress to what you are doing10:29
seb128but if you want to get that email out today feel free10:29
didrocksI'll10:29
seb128you handle your time as you want ;-)10:29
didrockswell, I'm trying to focus on that before the crazy end of week :-) and if we tell "we need that know" after tomorrow evening, not sure to have the time for A110:30
didrockshence my "the sooner, the better" :)10:30
seb128k10:30
seb128enough IRC discussions, I will let you work10:30
pittiI'm off for a longer lunch today, CU later10:50
seb128pitti, have fun10:50
seb128rodrigo_, invest-applet doesn't work here10:50
rodrigo_seb128, yeah, fixed a few more issues, but still doesn't work here neither10:52
seb128NameError: name 'gobject' is not defined10:52
seb128there10:52
rodrigo_seb128, yeah, already fixed that10:52
seb128ok10:53
rodrigo_now stuck in PanelApplet.Applet.factory_main, it says it can't find that method, but the gir file has it :(10:53
=== MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|lunch
chrisccoulsonwow, a morning wasted just to find that my build issue is caused by 2 linker flags being the wrong way around11:42
chrisccoulsongrrrrrrr11:42
kklimondaheh11:42
kklimondaI've wasted an hour or so for the same reason a week ago or so11:43
chrisccoulsonit's seriously annoying, especially when it used to work just fine11:43
seb128kklimonda, hey11:43
kklimondaseb128: hola11:43
seb128chrisccoulson, having the source after the libs?11:43
seb128source -> object11:43
seb128ie gcc -l... file.c -o ...?11:44
kklimondaseb128: I've seen that you have lost a lot of time yesterday discussin sponsoring.. and that's why you haven't had time to actually sponsor? ;}11:44
chrisccoulsonseb128 - no, it was more subtle than that11:44
seb128kklimonda, that and I can't find your sponsoring requests11:44
seb128http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html11:44
seb128doesn't have them11:44
seb128nor my bugmail box11:44
seb128kklimonda, that's why I was pinging you11:45
seb128where do you hide your work? ;-)11:45
seb128the glibmm update?11:45
chrisccoulsonseb128 - i need to do "../libjs_static.a -lnspr4" rather than "-lnspr4 ../libjs_static.a", because libjs_static.a has objects that uses nspr symbols11:45
seb128chrisccoulson, tell us ;-)11:45
seb128oh11:45
kklimondaseb128: bah, my bad - I've assumed requesting a merge to the ~ubuntu-desktop branch is enough as you are tuned to the case ;)11:45
seb128got bitten by the same issue for gnome-panel last week11:45
chrisccoulsonbut it has always worked before :(11:45
seb128yes, doko said it was luck though11:46
chrisccoulsonah, ok11:46
seb128or rather --as-needed makes it stricter11:46
kklimondaseb128: give me a minute and I'll open a bug about it.11:46
seb128kklimonda, well just subscribe ubuntu-sponsors to the merge request11:46
seb128no need of a bug11:46
kklimondaseb128: oh? I didn't know that - is the packaging branch enough, or would you prefer full branch with source?11:47
kklimondaI think I have both11:47
seb128kklimonda, the packaging is better11:47
seb128I don't want to have to checkout the full glibmm history11:47
seb128thanks ;-)11:47
kklimondayes, that's the huge issue with the new model - I remember giving up few times and just using apt-get source because it was fetching hundreds MBs of data.. slowly ;)11:48
seb128the desktop sources are still debian dir only in the vcs due to that11:48
kklimondaseb128: I can't really subscribe sponsors to the merge itself, is subscribing them to the branch enough?11:49
seb128why not?11:49
seb128you can ask review from sponsors?11:49
seb128click on the request review from button11:49
seb128then write ubuntu-sponsors11:50
seb128it should work?11:50
kklimondaah, reviewer is set to ubuntu desktop and I can change it11:50
kklimondaok, worked fine11:50
seb128yeah, the issue with that is that nobody is subscribed to ubuntu-desktop emails11:50
chrisccoulsonseb128 - it's amazing - i tried to build icedtea-web against xulrunner-2.0 last night, and it has exactly the same type of linker flag ordering issue as well11:50
chrisccoulsonand that's doko's own package ;)11:50
seb128chrisccoulson, it seems we will get quite some issues due to that11:52
chrisccoulsonright, that's xul-192 fixed i think. hopefully it builds now,i don't really want to waste time waiting for it to build here11:53
kklimondabtw, the amount of ways stuff can be sponsored right now is so big I'm actually considering working on my upload rights just so I don't have to deal with it ;)11:55
=== al-maisan is now known as almaisan-away
rodrigo_pitti, ping12:25
rodrigo_oh, he was off for a long lunch12:25
rodrigo_does anyone know how to tell apport to look for symptoms modules in a different dir than /usr/share/apport/symptoms/ ?12:26
arahello guys12:29
rodrigo_hola ara12:29
araI have installed natty from yesterday image (alternate) and, although unity is installed by default, I don't have a Ubuntu Netbook Edition in the gdm menu12:30
arait always logs in to the gnome session12:30
arais that expected?12:30
didrocksara: that's normal, there is no more ubuntu netbook edition12:30
aradidrocks, but how I get a unity session?12:30
didrocksara: and for now, unity isn't the default on the desktop12:30
didrocksara: there is no unity session, just enables unity as a compiz plugin12:30
didrocksara: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity/InstallationGuide12:31
arata12:31
didrocksshould remove the ppa bits, one sec :)12:31
ara:)12:31
didrocksfixed12:31
rodrigo_http://pastebin.com/usEdyfRF <- is this because libgnome-control-cneter doesn't have a .symbols file?12:42
bilalakhtarkenvandine: Congratulations! You are a core-dev now!12:47
nisshhkenvandine, congratz dude!12:48
=== MacSlow|lunch is now known as MacSlow
rodrigo_congrats kenvandine!! :-)12:50
seb128rodrigo_, it should not12:50
seb128rodrigo_, is /usr/lib/libgnome-control-center.so.1 shipped with any binary?12:51
rodrigo_seb128, yes, gnome-control-center12:51
baptistemm312:51
rodrigo_let me re-check12:51
baptistemm312:51
baptistemmoups12:51
rodrigo_seb128, yes, g-c-c package12:52
seb128rodrigo_, why is it there?12:52
seb128is that a public library?12:52
seb128if that's one it should be shipped in a libg-c-c112:52
seb128I didn't check what is the issue12:53
rodrigo_yes, need to split it, but it should work for building other modules, right?12:53
seb128but libraries should be in a lib<name> binary12:53
rodrigo_that's why it can't find the dependency?12:53
seb128well I'm not sure how much the checksymbol check that lib are in a lib binary12:53
seb128could be12:53
rodrigo_ok, I'll split the g-c-c package12:53
seb128let me try to figure if that's the case12:53
rodrigo_and try with that12:53
rodrigo_ok12:53
cyphermoxgood morning!13:09
=== rodrigo__ is now known as rodrigo_
=== MacSlow is now known as MacSlow|afk
* rodrigo_ -> lunch13:26
=== seiflotfy_ is now known as seiflotfy
mterrykenvandine, !!  wooo!  core dev!13:46
seb128hey mterry13:46
seb128kenvandine, congrats ;-)13:47
mterryseb128, hi13:47
didrockscongrats kenvandine!13:47
seb128mterry, you are on the ubuntu-desktop list right?13:47
didrockshey mterry, cyphermox!13:47
mterryseb128, yeah, I saw that post about how I'm not supposed to be on the team  :)13:47
mterrywhoops13:47
mterryI assume I should apply the right way?13:48
seb128mterry, ok, I think it's just paperwork issues13:48
cyphermoxhey kenvandine, congrats :D13:48
seb128yes please13:48
* mterry reads how13:48
seb128mterry, just send an email on the list saying you want to apply and why13:48
pittirodrigo_: hey13:48
pittirodrigo_: yes, you can set $APPORT_SYMPTOMS_DIR13:49
kenvandineyay :)13:49
pittikenvandine: oh, congratulations to your core-dev badge! well earned13:49
kenvandinethank you13:49
seb128pitti, hey13:50
pittiseb128: hello again13:50
seb128pitti, did you read the ubuntu-desktop email from micahg today?13:50
pittiseb128: I've seen it fly by, yes13:50
seb128pitti, ok, sorry about the messing up there13:50
pittiso we should announce the two members to the -desktop and that other list, right?13:51
seb128pitti, sorry got sidetracked with something else13:56
seb128pitti, well, I think mterry can apply without issue13:56
seb128not sure if rodrigo_ needs some extra time with reviews before13:57
pittiseb128: mterry> ack, he should just (be able to) upload13:57
seb128I added them to work on the ppa rather than to give them upload rights13:57
seb128but right now we don't have different rights for those13:57
pittiright, so we have a privilege conflict there13:57
seb128so either we create a new team for the ppa...13:57
seb128or we ask rodrigo to get through reviews for a bit13:58
seb128do you have any preference?13:58
seb128I would lean toward the second one I think13:58
seb128we want the ppa to be natty quality13:59
seb128it's work in progress GNOME3 to land when ready13:59
seb128we will have quite some users running it and ideally we should reduce breakages13:59
seb128it's also a nice way for rodrigo to get some reviewing and get the feedback he needs to be added to the team for uploads13:59
pittiseb128: reviews sound like a good idea; I think for now it should be enough that he promises to only upload to the PPA, not to natty yet, until he becomes "officially" accepted as an uploader?14:00
seb128well that's what he did when I added to the team14:00
=== almaisan-away is now known as al-maisan
seb128but the policy wiki doesn't really consider such cases14:01
seb128so I'm not sure what we should do to get back in not abusing the rules14:01
pittiseb128: hm, perhaps we should then do that dogfooding thing and actually review/sponsor his uploads to the PPA, too?14:03
seb128wel that's what I was suggesting14:03
seb128ok, let's do that?14:04
seb128either he's up to do updates and we can ack him in the new weeks14:04
seb128or the review work will be an useful exercice for him14:04
seb128pitti, let's do that for a bit and see how it goes?14:05
pittiI agree14:06
pittirodrigo_: does that work for you?14:06
seb128ok great14:06
pittirodrigo_: you can work in bzr branches for now, and ask Seb/me/Ken/etc for reviewing and merging, and we do the uploads for you?14:06
seb128rodrigo_, so we will probably remove your commit and upload right to the ppa for a bit, time you get officially approved14:06
seb128rodrigo_, if reviews are ok you will be able to apply for official membership in a few weeks14:08
pittiseb128: for mterry, we need three acks on ubuntu-desktop; want me to send the invitation?14:08
seb128pitti, invitation?14:08
pittito join the u-desktop team (belatedly)14:08
mterrypitti, I just sent an email to the list14:09
seb128I was waiting for you and didrocks to ack him and going to ack and Cc the permission list14:09
pittis per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Developers14:09
seb128well, let's said it differently14:09
seb128if you and didrocks reply to ack him I will do the remaining ack and Cc the list14:09
seb128so it's all done14:09
seb128didrocks, pitti: works for you?14:10
seb128well, didrocks or kenvandine14:10
didrocksseb128: works for me14:10
seb128or chrisccoulson14:10
seb128I don't think we lack people to ack mterry14:10
seb128;-)14:11
didrocksoh mterry, wait!14:11
didrocks(kidding)14:11
didrocks:)14:11
seb128lol14:11
seb128seems he working on that quickly thing14:11
* didrocks looks if he hacked my merge request on Quickly before deciding :)14:11
kenvandine:)14:12
bcurtiswxkenvandine, did you get my pings yesterday?14:13
pittiseb128, mterry: I sent my "no, no, no, not THAT guy" mail as a response14:13
kenvandinebcurtiswx, i probably missed them, i was trying not to get distracted14:13
kenvandinesorry14:13
kenvandinewhat's up?14:13
bcurtiswxkenvandine, no need to be sorry.  :)  I have finished the 2.32.2 SRU, i was just letting you know so when you got the chance you could sponsor/review it and push to natty14:14
mterry:)14:14
kenvandineah14:15
kenvandinebcurtiswx, cool, bug #?14:15
bcurtiswxbug #67833014:15
ubot2Launchpad bug 678330 in empathy (Ubuntu) "Empathy 2.32.2 Stable Release Update Request (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/67833014:15
kenvandinebcurtiswx, i'll take a look later this afternoon14:16
kenvandinethx!14:16
=== MacSlow|afk is now known as MacSlow
mterrypitti, well, if this is the "no" email, I'd like to see what you say for people you like.  ;)14:16
bcurtiswxkenvandine, great, no rush.  :) you're the best14:16
cyphermoxpitti, btw, fontconfig merge is ready for review, I set ubuntu-sponsors as reviewer for the branch. since you had asked about it yesterday :)14:17
pittihey cyphermox, great!14:17
seb128kenvandine, does that mean you can upload gtk3 yourself today? ;-)14:17
bcurtiswxpitti, doesn't like people.  it's against his beliefs ;)14:17
didrocksmterry: seb128: sent my "no email" as well :)14:17
* pitti holds up his "I hate y'all" cardboard sign14:17
cyphermoxy'all?14:18
cyphermoxeh.14:18
seb128quality is going down I tell you14:18
seb128see all those slackers getting uploads right14:18
seb128kenvandine, mterry14:18
cyphermoxlol14:18
* bcurtiswx is on his way to slacking ;)14:18
* cyphermox is slacking selectively ;)14:18
pittibcurtiswx: slack harder! slack harder!14:18
pitti*grouphug*14:19
kenvandineseb128, i guess so :)14:19
seb128;-)14:19
* seb128 hugs pitti14:19
* bcurtiswx is. i hope to apply by cycle's end14:19
seb128bcurtiswx, great, keep the nice work ;-)14:19
pittiso, back to the depths of untangling threads in usb-creator14:20
bcurtiswxseb128, thx. :)14:20
* bcurtiswx killed seb128 ?14:20
pittiseb128 respawns14:21
didrockslike my gnome-session issue :)14:21
mterry:)14:21
pittiquickly, collect all his goodies and weapons!14:21
* didrocks tries to get people read my thread :p14:21
seb128pitti, I've to fix those conflicts at some point, I've 2 boxes which disconnect each other when connecting14:22
pittiuse seb129 on the other one?14:22
seb128I should, it's my old config14:22
seb128I turn it sometimes on for debug14:23
bcurtiswxthis is too good14:23
seb128but I never bothered changing the config14:23
* bcurtiswx rofl's14:23
mterrydidrocks, thanks!14:23
seb128didrocks, your email is less inviting than mterry's one to read for some reason14:23
didrocksseb128: not sure why… :-)14:24
didrocksoh those headaches!14:24
seb128;-)14:24
didrocks;)14:24
didrocksI've put some jokes inside, that's so unfair!14:24
pittididrocks: which email do you mean?14:25
seb128could be, I need to find the motivation to read enough to see them ;-)14:25
seb128pitti, the one he sent on the desktop list early today14:25
pittiodd, I see it in the archive, but not in my mail box14:26
didrockspitti: isn't that /ignore didrocks ? :)14:27
pittinot in my procmail.log either14:27
pittiso not even in spam14:27
pittididrocks: would you mind bouncing it to me?14:27
pittiso that I can reply in thread14:28
didrockspitti: sure, one sec14:28
pitticyphermox: uploaded, thanks!14:28
cyphermoxpitti, wow, thanks!14:28
didrocksrodrigo_: when e-d-s build issue and new evolution will be published, would you mind testing evolution-couchdb with the new version and ask for a rebuild if needed?14:31
didrocks(well, a rebuild will be needed for picking up the new shlibs in any case)14:31
cyphermoxdidrocks, found the cause for the e-d-s new ftbfs ...14:34
didrockscyphermox: nice! what was it?14:35
cyphermoxupload of gtk+2.0 2.23 along with using -DGTK_DISABLE_DEPRECATED :)14:35
cyphermoxgtk_combo_box_append_text is now deprecated14:35
didrockscyphermox: ok, there should be a commit upstream about it, you should be able to backport it14:36
didrockscyphermox: or add the flag in configure14:36
cyphermoxyep14:36
didrockscyphermox: you should try in a pbuilder and trying to rebuild everything, maybe evolution and other have those issues as well now14:37
cyphermoxyeah, just checking if there's a commit first14:38
aradidrocks, compizconfig-settings-manager is not installed by default. You might want to put that in your Unity installation wiki page14:44
seb128ok, enough testing14:44
seb128chrisccoulson, I've sponsored your d-f-u update btw14:44
seb128kklimonda, doing the glibmm build at the moment as well14:45
didrocksara: well, unity will be the default this week normally and unity it's quite experimental until then, hence the fact it's not strongly encouraged until then :)14:46
bcurtiswxdidrocks, why the push to make unity default so quick.. seems too broken ATM IMO14:48
mterrymore testing this way?14:48
rodrigo_didrocks, yes, sure14:48
rodrigo_didrocks, I changed evo-couchdb to compile with any version of e-d-s, but only tested on git versions, so, yes, will do it14:49
didrocksmore testing than testing A1 without having it, and double session for people wanting still gnome-panel. it's a win-win…14:49
didrocksrodrigo_: thanks :)14:49
seb128bcurtiswx, unstable is unstable14:50
bcurtiswxdidrocks, seb128.  OK :) when will the ubuntu button be fixed ?14:51
bcurtiswxcan't really access local files easy without it..14:51
seb128bcurtiswx, should be in alpha214:52
seb128bcurtiswx, you case use nautilus14:52
rodrigo_seb128, pitti: anything that works for you works for me, but what do you mean about removing my rights? I would not be able to do the uploads/merges myself then, even after reviews?14:52
seb128bcurtiswx, the best way to get things fixed is to get testing and people complaining about what doesn't work14:52
seb128bcurtiswx, you can easily go back to GNOME as well14:52
rodrigo_diwic, oh, you were here, missed it :-)14:52
seb128just unset the compiz unity option14:52
seb128rodrigo_, no you would not, it means whoever review for you should merge and upload14:53
bcurtiswxseb128, i know.  I have it on compiz w/o unity ATM .  thx :)14:53
seb128rodrigo_, the issue is that the team give access to the ppa and ubuntu proper14:53
seb128even if you don't use the right to upload to ubuntu it was not done in the rules14:54
rodrigo_seb128, ah, ok14:54
chrisccoulsonseb128 - cool, thanks14:56
chrisccoulson(sorry, just popped out to grab some lunch)14:56
seb128rodrigo_, things like not renaming the gnome-keyring library to match the soname shows you might benefit from some reviewing before upload still14:56
seb128rodrigo_, it shouldn't be lot of extra work since in theory you needed review still, it just mean we have to run the merge and upload commands for you after review14:57
seb128we have enough people in the team that it should not be an issue14:57
rodrigo_seb128, oh no, I'm ok with the reviews, I know I need them14:57
seb128ok great14:58
seb128I will reply to the list now14:58
seb128need another session restart before though14:59
=== tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter
rickspencer3kenvandine, mterry, looks like some team changes today?15:14
rickspencer3congrats kenvandine!15:15
rickspencer3way to go mterry!15:15
kenvandinerickspencer3, thx!15:15
mterryrickspencer3, :)15:15
mterryseb128, thanks!15:15
bilalakhtarmterry: I saw your application on the ubuntu-desktop ML. HAven't you been added already? then what is the point of sending an application?15:19
chrisccoulsonpitti - what do i need to do to get xulrunner-2.0 in to main btw? (it's basically going to replace xulrunner-1.9.2)15:19
chrisccoulsoni wanted to get everything in main ported this week so we can drop the old one to universe15:20
cyphermoxbilalakhtar, there was an email from micah on the list, there were no announces/applications before mterry joined the team15:21
bilalakhtarcyphermox: I know that15:21
cyphermoxbilalakhtar, sending an application just confirms there is people to ack him :)15:21
mterrybilalakhtar, point was to try to follow process after having broken it15:22
bilalakhtarbut there is no point in 'doing what was supposed to have been done' since the result has come already: mterry has joined15:22
bilalakhtarmterry: ^15:22
bilalakhtarokay15:22
chrisccoulsoncongrats mterry ;)15:22
mterrychrisccoulson, thanks  :)15:22
bilalakhtarcongrats mterry ! ( I congratulated you when you actually joined)15:22
mterrybilalakhtar, :)15:22
seb128bilalakhtar, we shouldn't have added him without doing that15:23
seb128so we are fixing it15:23
bilalakhtarhmm15:24
bilalakhtarand why is rodrigo_ out of the team15:24
bilalakhtar?15:24
rodrigo_they don't like me :(15:24
kklimondahe misbehaves!15:24
pittichrisccoulson: ask me nicely? :-)15:24
seb128bilalakhtar, will follow up on the list with that in a but, but basically he's not ready yet to get the acks he needs15:25
pittichrisccoulson: it's not built yet, BTW, is that expected?15:25
seb128we don't have a way to give ppa access without upload rights15:25
bilalakhtarhmm15:25
pittichrisccoulson: I promoted the source to main15:25
bilalakhtarthat would mean splitting the already-awesome ~ubuntu-desktop15:25
chrisccoulsonpitti - would you mind promoting it to main for me please? (but perhaps after i have uploaded it with the extra xulrunner-dev and xulrunner-2.0-mozjs binaries too)15:25
chrisccoulsonoh, thanks :)15:25
chrisccoulson(bit of a lag there) ;)15:25
didrockscyphermox: did you find anything?15:26
seb128bilalakhtar, well not sure we need that, it just means rodrigo needs to have reviews until we confirm he doesn't need those15:26
chrisccoulsonpitti - i think it's built, but the binaries are in NEW15:26
seb128bilalakhtar, which is the best way to get feedback and learn what you still need15:26
bilalakhtarseb128: thanks for the info, sorry for the unnecessary discussion, I was just curious15:26
seb128no worry15:26
cyphermoxdidrocks, not for the other evolution packages, but I can't build them without e-d-s15:27
didrockscyphermox: I'm speaking about the e-d-s FTBFS :)15:27
cyphermoxso as soon as I'm ready for a merge I'll send that for e-d-s and go on to test the rest by pushing everything to a ppa15:27
cyphermoxdidrocks, right15:27
cyphermoxwell yeah, the e-d-s ftbfs is fixed15:27
cyphermoxjust wiaitng for pbuilder to finish building it15:28
didrockscyphermox: ok, nice :)15:28
cyphermoxthere was indeed a fix in the 2.91 branch15:28
cyphermoxdidrocks, btw, the sru bugs are pretty much ready too, I'm just finishing up applying the patches ;)15:31
didrockscyphermox: ok, thanks :)15:33
czajkowskikenvandine: ever seen where you launch gwibber in another desktop like #4 but it launches in desktop #1 every single time15:33
kenvandineczajkowski, humm15:34
kenvandineczajkowski, i can maybe see where that might happen15:34
czajkowskikenvandine: and this isn't even my special laptop, this is the work one15:35
* bcurtiswx_ goes and tests15:35
czajkowskikenvandine: kinda annoying as I like things in different desktops 1 &2 being work 3 & 4 social15:36
kenvandineyeah... so gwibber saves it's window position15:36
czajkowskikenvandine: can I file a bug :D15:36
kenvandinei never really considered the position might not be relative to the current desktop15:36
* bcurtiswx_ uses memenu and desktop #4 to launch gwibber.. and it launches in desktop #4 :-\15:36
kenvandineczajkowski, please file the bug :)15:36
kenvandinebcurtiswx_, so you closed the gwibber window and changed workspaces right?15:37
=== bcurtiswx_ is now known as bcurtiswx
kenvandinei just tried it and it worked for me15:37
kenvandineclosed in workspace 115:37
kenvandineand switched to workspace 415:37
kenvandineand clicked on it in the messaging menu15:38
kenvandineopened on workspace 415:38
bcurtiswxi will test it exactly that way15:38
kenvandineczajkowski, actually... are you closing the window?15:38
bcurtiswxyeah, works. i even closed in workspace 4.. opened on memenu on desktop 1 and opened in desktop 115:39
kenvandineif you minimize it, it will just raise on the workspace it was minimized on15:39
czajkowskikenvandine: closing which window ?|15:39
kenvandinegwibber15:39
czajkowskihttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gwibber/+bug/68053015:39
ubot2Launchpad bug 680530 in gwibber (Ubuntu) "Gwibber doesnt launch in the desktop I launch it from (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New]15:39
czajkowskikenvandine: I launch it via the desktop and me memue when I'm on the #4 desktop15:40
kenvandineyeah, but is it already open somewhere?15:40
kenvandineor minimized?15:40
czajkowskinope15:40
czajkowskithis is when I start up pc in the morning15:40
bcurtiswxczajkowski, first launch?15:41
czajkowskibcurtiswx: yes15:41
chrisccoulsonpitti - oh, side effect of having xulrunner-2.0 in main now - i can't upload it ;)15:46
chrisccoulsonare you able to add it to the mozilla packageset, or does somebody else need to do that?15:47
pittichrisccoulson: hang on, currently juggling SRU kernels15:47
pittiI can15:47
chrisccoulsonpitti - cool, thanks :)15:47
bcurtiswxczajkowski, can you reproduce by quitting and launching empathy without a restart?15:47
bcurtiswxeek15:47
bcurtiswxczajkowski, gwibber not empathy15:47
bcurtiswxi have empathy on the brain :X15:47
rodrigo_pitti, I can still upload to the PPA right?15:49
rodrigo_pitti, and push to the ubuntugtk3 branches?15:49
=== kamstrup is now known as kamstrup|afk
pittichrisccoulson: ok, I see that xulrunner-1.9.2 is in the mozilla package set15:52
pittichrisccoulson: I added -2.0; try uploading again?15:53
chrisccoulsonpitti - thanks, will try that now15:53
czajkowskibcurtiswx: sure let me try , in the middle of wiping a mac and putting lenny on it here, so things are breaking15:53
pittirodrigo_: not sure about the owner of the ubuntugtk3 branches; the PPA is owned by ~ubuntu-desktop, so you'd need sponsoring there; but that's kind of the point, it will make us review stuff and then officially approve you quickly :)15:53
mvohey jcastro - I re-activated the daily builds for s-c :) https://code.launchpad.net/~software-store-developers/+archive/daily-build15:56
jcastroooh nice, tweet fodder.15:56
bcurtiswxczajkowski, OK.  Im gonna head out for a bit.  i'll check PM's later15:56
mvolol, test it first ;)15:56
* mvo goes and finds a maverick machine15:56
seb128re15:58
seb128sorry internet got flacky for a bit15:58
chrisccoulsonpitti - that worked now btw16:01
chrisccoulsonthanks :)16:01
pitticool16:01
chrisccoulsonnow to updated couchdb to not pull in the entire toolkit :)16:01
pittigo, chrisccoulson, go!16:01
chrisccoulson**update16:01
seb128;-)16:01
chrisccoulson:)16:01
Sarvattchrisccoulson: Setting up xulrunner-1.9.2 (1.9.2.13+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu2) ...16:02
Sarvattdpkg: error processing xulrunner-1.9.2 (--configure):16:02
Sarvatthung forever and had to kill it16:02
chrisccoulsonSarvatt, oh, bugger, i thought that was fixed16:03
chrisccoulsonSarvatt, i386?16:04
* Sarvatt nods16:04
chrisccoulsonSarvatt, bug 663294 most likely16:04
ubot2Launchpad bug 663294 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu) "Firefox built with gcc-4.5 is a non-starter on i386 with -pie (affects: 3) (heat: 120)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/66329416:04
chrisccoulsonSarvatt - mind attaching GDB to it?16:05
chrisccoulsonit's the xulrunner-1.9.2 process called from the postinst script which hangs16:05
chrisccoulsonyou might need to manually unpack the debug symbols16:05
chrisccoulsoni'm tempted to just switch xr-192 to gcc-4.4. we're going to kill it entirely this cycle anyway16:07
rodrigo_seb128, so, asked pitti about the PPA and the ubuntugtk3 branches, so just to confirm, I need review and an uploader for those, right?16:07
chrisccoulsoni don't really want to be spending time fixing it when it's going to get dropped from the archive16:07
seb128rodrigo_, yes16:07
seb128rodrigo_, just ping on the channel, I will try to be responsive for those16:07
seb128rodrigo_, I will also review things already in the ppa, do you have anything pending sponsoring to natty or the ppa?16:08
jcastroLaney: ok so I wasn't aware the MIR deadline for banshee was today.16:08
jcastrootherwise I would have bothered you much sooner. :)16:08
Laneywas it?16:08
Laneynobody told me16:08
rodrigo_seb128, yes, one branch, the rest was before the decision, so I uploaded/pushed them -> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/ubuntu/natty/gnome-control-center/add-libgnome-control-center/+merge/4161716:08
jcastrook so we have until thursday to sort it out I guess16:09
didrocksLaney: jcastro: not really a MIR deadline, but if we want to change the seed for A1, thursday is the cut off, the time for the MIR to be reviewed and such…16:09
jcastroand I suppose it's on me to convince asac to be nice16:09
czajkowskibcurtiswx: killed all gwibbers, and started it again from desktop and on #4 it launched in #1 again16:09
didrocksasac is always nice :)16:09
Sarvattchrisccoulson: might take awhile while I try to work out how to get more info from it but i'm trying :)16:09
Laneyheh16:09
Laneyi'll do my best tonight16:09
seb128rodrigo_, ok, waiting for the launchpad diff and I will review it16:09
chrisccoulsonSarvatt, sure, no worries16:09
rodrigo_seb128, ok, thanks16:09
chrisccoulsoni can't test this easily as i'm not on i386, and it seems to be arch-specific16:09
rickspencer3cyphermox, hey, how is the nm-indicator thing going?16:10
jcastrodidrocks: this will end up costing me a few bottles of whiskey, I am sure.16:10
seb128rodrigo_, seems the sort of change where review is useful16:10
didrocksjcastro: not only "a few", I'm afraid for you :)16:10
rodrigo_seb128, all my changes need review, yes :-)16:10
jcastrodidrocks: let's hope Laney doesn't have expensive taste16:10
seb128rodrigo_, well easy updates are usually fine, but renaming etc are less obvious16:11
rodrigo_seb128, just been pushing/uploading to the PPA because it was going to be reviewed afterwards16:11
didrocksjcastro: :)16:11
cyphermoxrickspencer3, well, I was going to wait until after the holidays to start, which is once upstream has done some API cleanup. That said, I already have a draft that kind of works since UDS16:11
seb128rodrigo_, right16:11
Laneyjcastro: seeing banshee by default is intoxicating enough for me ;)16:11
cyphermoxthis is in addition to some of the additional features that will be added this cycle in libappindicator that will help a lot16:11
rickspencer3cyphermox, does it work at all?16:11
cyphermoxrickspencer3, right now, partly. I can't easily build the list of networks16:12
jcastroLaney: did we ever come up with a final number for the swap wrt. disk space?16:12
cyphermoxthere is something I can try to fix it though16:12
cyphermoxrickspencer3, I assume you're saying this because you'd like to see something by alpha 1 ? :)16:12
Laneyjcastro: estimate about 2500kb, but it's difficult to know for sure16:12
jcastrodidrocks: ^ See, that wasn't so bad!16:13
Laneythat is our rough estimate of CD impact with stripping out translations16:13
rickspencer3cyphermox, is the only thing blocking that users would have to use "connect to a hidden wireless network ... " to connect?16:13
didrocksLaney: jcastro: nice! tells that to pitti, he's the first concerned :)16:13
Laneybtw, does pkgstriptranslations only look in /u/s/locale?16:13
cyphermoxrickspencer3, I guess that would be a way to make it work for now16:13
Laneywe were discussing whether it strips user help translations too16:14
pittiLaney: cool!16:14
rickspencer3cyphermox, can we talk in #ayatana?16:14
cyphermoxrickspencer3, I also have an issue with icons, but I can more or less work around that16:14
cyphermoxsure16:14
pittiLaney: yes, we also help gnome help translations of main packages, and put them into langpacks16:14
Laneyah cool16:14
Sarvattchrisccoulson: http://sarvatt.com/downloads/xulrunner-1.9.2.txt16:14
Laneymight be a little bit ore then16:14
chrisccoulsonSarvatt, thanks. so, it looks like the same issue, which should have gone away with -pie :/16:15
chrisccoulsoni'll try a build with all the build hardening switched off for now16:15
=== al-maisan is now known as almaisan-away
mvotremolux: check s-c trunk, the startup-speed stuff is merged now16:22
tremoluxmvo: I saw that, thanks!  \o/16:23
pittijasoncwarner1: good morning! you'll chair today?16:25
chrisccoulsonSarvatt, oh, I see what's wrong16:26
jasoncwarner1Sure thing!16:26
pitti(we start in 4, right?)16:26
Sarvattdoh, should look before I accept dist-upgrades eh, evolution removed :)16:26
chrisccoulsoni have a version check in debian/rules to switch off -pie in natty, but i removed the lsb_release calls to get the current distro version by accident a few commits ago16:26
* chrisccoulson crawls in a dark corner16:27
Sarvattchrisccoulson: phew, at least its not the toolchain again :)16:28
chrisccoulsonheh :)16:29
chrisccoulsonalthough, the original issue is with the toolchain ;)16:29
chrisccoulsonbut this one is my fault16:29
chrisccoulsonthe buildd's are going to love me today16:29
jasoncwarner1Ok, if my day light saving times didn't mess up again, is it that time?16:30
jasoncwarner1https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2010-11-2416:30
rodrigo_jasoncwarner1, yes, seems so :)16:30
pittijasoncwarner1: right16:30
rodrigo_ugh, the status reports have disappeared from that page16:31
pittijasoncwarner1: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2010-11-2316:31
* rodrigo_ added his this morning16:31
rodrigo_ah, ok :)16:31
pittithat's because in Jason's world it's already Wednesday :)16:31
rodrigo_heh16:31
jasoncwarner1oops! :)16:31
jasoncwarner1https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2010-11-2316:31
* pitti deletes the empty -24 page16:31
pittijasoncwarner1: ain't timezones fun?16:32
kenvandine:)16:32
* jasoncwarner1 spites time travel and timezones16:32
jasoncwarner1I can't think about timezones normally, let alone this early ;)16:32
seb128hey everybody16:32
seb128would be nice to highlight all team members16:33
jasoncwarner1Well, here is the quick agenda, but kenvandine needs to go first so he can leave to take care of something.16:33
didrockshey16:33
tkamppeterhi16:33
pittibryceh, chrisccoulson, didrocks, tremolux, Riddell, cyphermox, mterry, rodrigo_: meeting o'clock16:33
tremoluxheya all16:33
mterryyup16:33
jasoncwarner1seb128: did you want to go around ? is that what you were thinking?16:33
Riddellmeeting!16:33
pittijasoncwarner1: just the above, to "wake up" everyone16:34
* rodrigo_ wakes up16:34
* kenvandine yawns16:34
kenvandine:)16:34
* kenvandine jumps in with a partner update so i can make it to pick up one of my kids on time :)16:35
kenvandineUbuntu One16:35
kenvandine work items are all entered and tracked (yay, that drove me nuts last cycle)16:35
kenvandine desktopcouch improvements are close to landing in natty, hopefully this week16:35
kenvandinethey have been spending quite a bit of time fixing up infrastructure problems, so lets hope it gets more reliable soon16:36
kenvandineDX16:36
seb128jasoncwarner1, no, just a:16:36
seb128didrocks, kenvandine, chrisccoulson, pitti, Riddell, mterry, ...: hello16:36
kenvandine GDBus port is well underway, but we won't be getting that uploaded to natty until after A1.  It will require the entire indicator stack to be uploaded together16:36
chrisccoulsonhi! :)16:36
seb128jasoncwarner1, so people who didn't notice the time get their IRC blinking16:36
kenvandinewith the exception of libdee and libzg port to GDBus should make it in before A116:36
seb128;-)16:36
kenvandinethose can be done individually16:36
kenvandine dbusmenu build problems on natty16:37
pittikenvandine: not quite sure why? you can certainly port both sides of the d-bus separately? or am I missing something?16:37
pittii. e. each -service process can be ported individually?16:37
=== almaisan-away is now known as al-maisan
kenvandinethey said they need all the indicators ported at the same time as libindicator, etc16:37
kenvandineit is a pretty delicate mesh of packages... it seems16:38
pittiwell, let's not dwell on it; if it all lands early, fine :)16:38
kenvandine:)16:38
kenvandine2 weeks :)16:38
kenvandinedbusmenu build problems on natty16:38
seb128kenvandine, what about the gtk3 builds?16:38
kenvandinefound problems in gtk+2.0 and gtk+3.0 related to gir and vapigen, fixed in natty already16:38
kenvandineGIRs created in natty includes more information, including class info, which is causing problems with the generated GIR in dbusmenu, ted is looking at that.16:38
kenvandineseb128, ^^16:38
kenvandinestill doesn't build with gtk2 on natty16:39
kenvandinemuch less gtk3 :)16:39
rodrigo_kenvandine, oh, I'm having problems with gtk2 gir for the invest applet, so is the package already available?16:39
kenvandinehe needs to look at why the class info generated in his GIR is wrong16:39
kenvandinerodrigo_, yes16:39
rodrigo_ok, will try later16:39
kenvandine:)16:39
kenvandineany questions?16:39
* kenvandine really needs to run out... sorry folks :)16:39
jasoncwarner1Later kenvandine!16:40
jasoncwarner1thanks16:40
kenvandinei read back when i get back16:40
kenvandine:)16:40
rodrigo_later kenvandine16:40
seb128kenvandine, later16:40
jasoncwarner1robert_ancell wanted to talk about meeting format, but I figure we should have that at the end.16:40
jasoncwarner1Here is the stated agenda for now.16:40
jasoncwarner1Agenda16:40
jasoncwarner1    * Outstanding actions from last meeting16:40
jasoncwarner1    * Partner Update16:40
jasoncwarner1    * Kubuntu Update16:40
jasoncwarner1    * X Update16:40
jasoncwarner1    * Unity Update16:40
jasoncwarner1    * USC Update16:40
jasoncwarner1    * Release Bugs/Release Status16:40
jasoncwarner1    * Review activity reports16:40
jasoncwarner1    * Any other business16:40
jasoncwarner1partner update got bumped up, so done.16:41
seb128kenvandine, I'm a bit concerned about those build issues being there for 2 weeks now and I guess thanksgiving will not help this week16:41
seb128but we can talk about that later16:41
jasoncwarner1I don't see any oustanding actions from last meeting.16:41
jasoncwarner1Can anyone remember any that weren't captured in the wiki16:41
pittithere was "[robert_ancell] Email team about meeting/action items format " which is done16:42
pittiand some actions carried over which I failed to add to the wiki page16:42
pittijasoncwarner - follow up with tkamppeter about paper size bp16:42
pittiit seems most of this is getting done in bug reports now16:43
jasoncwarner1pitti: that is done, but I don't have an update for wiki yet.16:43
pittidoko/riddell - investigate ARM issue with kubuntu16:43
pittiunknown16:43
pittiand finally, "prepare initial release page", which is done: prepare initial release page16:43
pittisorry, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:43
Riddell  * Qt still broken on ARM, patch to GCC sent upstream for review, am told GCC won't get uploaded until after Alpha 1 so broken until then16:43
=== and471_ is now known as and471
=== diwic is now known as diwic_afk
pittiRiddell: is that blocking anything on your side?16:45
jasoncwarner1ok, robert_ancell meeting format discussion we can have as the conclusion to this meeting :)16:45
Riddellpitti: only working ARM images16:45
pittiRiddell: I guess not a biggie for A1?16:46
Riddellnot my main concern no16:46
jasoncwarner1well, why don't we roll with Riddell updating and move right into Kubuntu update?16:47
Riddell  * Qt graphics system set to raster in Kubuntu, makes things smoother and faster.  openoffice broken though, need maintainer to make 1 line patch, any chance of one appearing soon?16:47
Riddell  * Phonon set to GStreamer by default16:47
Riddell  * Patience game on the CD after package splitting, long standing request16:47
Riddell  * KDE SC 4.5 Beta 1 in progress, lots of problems with this upstrem (compile failure, missing dependencies) so slow going16:47
pittiRiddell: you can commit it to the bzr for now if you like16:48
Riddellpitti: commit which?16:48
pittiRiddell: the OO.o one-liner16:48
Riddellpitti: I need someone's help to find where in the 500MB of OO.o it needs to go16:48
pittiRiddell: I seriously doublt that the entire OO.o will just build with gcc-4.5, so right now I doubt that we can do a quick test build16:48
pittiRiddell: oh, the packaging bzr is rather small16:49
pittiRiddell: there's a patches/ directory16:49
pittiRiddell: or just keep it in a bug report, and we assign it to the OO.o maintainer once we have one :)16:49
pitti(should that be LO.o now?)16:50
jasoncwarner1Riddell: re: OO.o/LibO maintainer. Fingers crossed that we have someone working fulltime on LibO by early/mid Dec. It would be a huge win for all of us!16:50
jasoncwarner1pitti: I think it is LibO, from what I've seen16:50
jasoncwarner1Riddell: thanks for the updates. Any questions for Kubuntu update?16:51
jasoncwarner1next item on the list is X Update otherwise16:51
pittiI guess we should move this point to the Eastern edition16:51
pittisince both bryceh and RAOF will be there nwo16:51
pittinow16:51
jasoncwarner1pitti: forgot, you are correct (noted)16:51
pittiwe'll read it on the wiki later on16:52
jasoncwarner1then can we get a drumroll for Unity Update?  :)16:52
pitti*drumrolllllllllllll*16:52
didrocks * New unity release this week, with a late release of bamf on Monday fixing a lot of crashes (all my fault, it was a dput away…)16:52
didrocks * Next release will mean unity by default, ready for A1 (existing Natty user won't be migrated as compiz doesn't allow that: when you use the new compiz version, the list of settings aren't refreshed from the default) and fallback session.16:52
didrocks * Detection is ready, will be pulled with tomorrow compiz snapshot16:52
didrocks * upgrade from maverick and gconf backend will be pulled too as a distro patch and the new compiz snapshot16:52
didrocks(there is still this pending gnome-panel issue we should sort of)16:53
didrocks * oh, and UNE has been killed this week :)16:53
pittididrocks: detection> so we'll always start compiz and this then falls back to metacity/panel/etc. somehow? or do we use gnome-wm to figure it out?16:53
pittiyay16:53
didrockspitti: depends on what we decides in the thread on ubuntu-desktop ML. We can do that, but we will break users who don't have compiz installed which used "Command Line upgrade" + uninstall16:54
pittiok, let's discuss that on the ML then16:54
jasoncwarner1didrocks: existing natty users won't be upgraded to latest compiz this time? Something manual needs to happen? (clarifying for me mostly)16:55
didrocksjasoncwarner1: they will have latest compiz, not latest default settings16:56
rodrigo_didrocks, we can patch gnome-wm to select the correct one on detection?16:56
didrocksjasoncwarner1: when compiz dump its settings it's considered as beeing changed by the user16:56
didrocksrodrigo_: well, not that simple. I've made some examples in the email I sent latly in ubuntu-desktop ML16:57
rodrigo_didrocks, ah, didn't read it, will do later and answer any idea, if I have one :)16:57
jasoncwarner1didrocks: thanks.16:57
jasoncwarner1any unity questions?16:58
jasoncwarner1Anyone not running Natty or Unity at this point?16:58
* tremolux raises hand16:58
* pitti runs natty with standard GNOME16:59
seb128I'm not16:59
tremoluxI plan to do it this week16:59
seb128I need a working system ;-)16:59
* rodrigo_ runs natty with standard gnome also16:59
chrisccoulsoni'm running standard GNOME too16:59
pittistill need to get used to it, and the extra space on the left side16:59
chrisccoulsonit doesn't work too well with more than 1 monitor either17:00
didrockspitti: autohide launcher + floating bar17:00
pittididrocks: ooh, you can hide the launcher now?17:00
didrocksin ccsm17:00
didrocksyeah :)17:00
pittinice17:00
didrocksthere are two options17:00
tremoluxdidrocks: ah!  nice17:00
didrocksboth are a must-checked! :)17:00
pittithen it won't take more space than my gnome panel right now17:00
jasoncwarner1Ok...can we agree that for this cycle we would run natty w/ unity to 1. work out bugs with DX team 2. patch where possible and 3. set the example for the world at large! :)17:01
seb128yes17:01
didrocksjasoncwarner1: I think once A1 is out, it makes sense :)17:02
pittiright17:02
didrockswew will have a nice-to-work-on with stable compiz and such17:02
jasoncwarner1Cool...thanks, guys...17:02
jasoncwarner1btw17:02
jasoncwarner1I fully expect an email from Telstra here in AU17:02
jasoncwarner1still not full internet...just a 3G card17:02
jasoncwarner1I upgraded all my machines on it....17:02
jasoncwarner1they probably won't like that since I believe I have a 1 gig limit ;) (free loaner card ;) )17:03
jasoncwarner1Anyway...moving on.17:03
jasoncwarner1USC update? tremolux?17:03
tremoluxsure thing17:03
tremolux* Startup performance:  great progress this week with startup time reduced well over 1s (~35% improvement on my laptop)17:03
tremolux  * Lazy-loading of history view, other optimizations and more on the way17:03
tremolux  * Coming soon: automatic daily startup time measurements on reference H/W (Dell Mini 10)17:03
tremolux * Ratings and Reviews:  server-side progress continues, client-side UI spec'd at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter/RatingsAndReviews17:03
tremolux * Released Software Center 3.1.2 this week with current performance optimizations and many nice fixes and improvements17:03
tremoluxthat's all  :)17:04
jasoncwarner1tremolux: thanks. Any questions?17:04
jasoncwarner1Next topic: Release Bugs/Release Status17:05
pittiwe had the first natty release meeting last Friday17:05
pittiso I updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus17:05
pittiwe are falling behind a little on the A1 chart, but nothing too worrying yet17:05
pittiand RC bugs are still under control17:05
pittiso nothing noteworthy from my side for the meeting; anyone else knows something which we should track at this early point?17:06
pittiseems not -> done17:08
jasoncwarner1cool....17:08
jasoncwarner1Any other business to report before we officially close and give the floor to format discussion?17:08
jasoncwarner1I guess not ;)17:09
jasoncwarner1Ok. Robert isn't here so I hope I can do his thoughts justice, but everyone should have gotten his email. Any thoughts on meeting format/17:10
jasoncwarner1?17:10
seb128was the meeting format in discussion?17:10
seb128I had the impression it was rather than the meeting is not enough and that the activity report format is not suited to reflect what we do17:10
seb128so that we need to improve communication by taking extra notes or blog17:11
seb128or tweat17:12
jasoncwarner1seb128: I took it to be that the information provided was useful for some expressed purposes, but not others.17:12
rodrigo_or use more the mailing list17:12
jasoncwarner1seb128: true...you are right17:12
pittiwe don't usually have a lot of "custom" agenda items for the meeting, mostly because we seem to discuss stuff as it happens on IRC17:13
pittiso the meeting is mostly for information exchange17:13
pittiwhich might not be the ideal channel, since that can just as well be read on the wiki beforehand17:13
seb128pitti, one of the concerns robert had was that only people on IRC during european and US hours get those infos17:13
seb128we don't have easy summary of what is being worked17:13
pittibut I do appreciate the possibility to have everyone online once a week and be able to ask questions17:13
seb128what help is needed17:13
seb128what people should be aware of, or careful about, etc17:14
pittiright, the status updates that we do here shold be on the wiki, too17:14
pittilike, kenvandine usually puts them there and copies to IRC17:14
seb128did you read robert's email?17:14
pittiyes, I did17:14
seb128well I think the main point was that we miss a summary of things like17:14
pittiso our weekly meeting wiki page should be a kind of weekly status report for people interested in the details17:14
seb128"dbusmenu update to gtk3 is being worked by kenvandine but blocked on gir issues"17:15
=== oubiwann is now known as oubiwann-away
seb128"you might want to be careful about the recent gtk update"17:15
pittibut that's the stuff that people shold put into their weekly report, no?17:15
seb128well I think we agreed the meeting is useful and don't want to drop it17:15
seb128but we need something dynamic which has a day to day summary17:16
seb128like something .au guys could read in a few hours when they start their day which tell them what happened today17:16
seb128on what they could help17:16
seb128that would also be useful to get extra community involvement17:16
rodrigo_yeah, that would be useful also for newcomers like me, and community people17:16
Sarvattbryceh, RAOF: sorry I'm in 2 meetings at the same time here but in case it helps for the eastern meeting here's a summary of the X updates last week - http://sarvatt.com/downloads/20101123-X-Updates.txt17:17
seb128pitti, dumping what we did once a week doesn't really help people to jump in task or getting help during the week17:17
seb128not sure if you see what I mean17:17
seb128we have lot of email discussion rounds between a few people recently to get status updates on what's going on with things like some GNOME3 updates17:18
seb128or gtk317:18
seb128or dbusmenu gir issues and what is blocking gtk3 builds17:18
rodrigo_I think all those discussions should go to the mailing list17:18
seb128well mailing list is nice for discussions17:19
rodrigo_yeah17:19
didrocksissues or help needed -> ML17:19
seb128not really for taking a few notes17:19
seb128didrocks, not really17:19
seb128like robert dropped me some emails last week17:19
seb128"start on totem and gtk3 but got blocked by a python crash"17:19
didrocksreport, few notes or parts of what's going on -> Wiki17:19
seb128"started on the rb update but it's crashing"17:19
seb128didrocks, I hate wikis17:20
didrocksreally a day to day?17:20
pittiseb128: I see what you mean, but writing day-to-day reports is quite a lot of additional overhead IMHO17:20
seb128not reports17:20
seb128but just having a whiteboard for people who want to dump notes at least17:20
seb128and maybe having somebody blogging interesting things once a way17:20
seb128way -> week17:20
didrockssome kind of etherpad to annotate and such?17:20
seb128didrocks, right17:20
seb128we suggested etherpad or status.net17:21
pittibesides our firehose of email and IRC that'd be yet another thing to watch out for..17:21
jasoncwarner1I think that is why someone suggested status updates (what is that called...status.ubuntu.com? )17:21
seb128pitti, nobody ask you to watch for17:21
seb128but it could cut some noise from IRC17:22
didrockshum, need to tweet and have another way to be disturbed, but I can understand the rationale17:22
seb128well I think the main point is to be able to let other people know things you want to share17:22
seb128you can't expect community people to jump in and help solving issue if there is nowhere they can see what needs help17:22
pittithey could (and do) ask here?17:22
seb128like someone could perhaps help kenvandine to get libdbusmenu work on natty17:23
seb128well the point is that ken could write he's blocked17:23
seb128so when robert starts his day he knows he could maybe help there17:23
seb128I think the main issue is that ie robert_ancell has little clue of how he could be useful17:23
seb128he joins after we left17:23
seb128and there is nowhere for him to get those infos17:23
pittifor this it seems that he and you or me should have at least half an hour of overlap on the day17:24
pittior if not, and you have stuff like that, you could just mail him?17:24
seb128well it's not only robert17:24
jasoncwarner1pitti: I think that solves the specific problem, but the general problem continues.17:25
pittidon't get me wrong, I don't object to other means17:25
seb128it could be mterry and robert17:25
pittibut it seems this is a rather specific problem and we might be overdesigning stuff here17:25
seb128or it could be some contributor who is watching what we do (or not because there is no place now to watch for those)17:25
jasoncwarner1pitti: we could be ! :) but it is probably worth talking about17:25
pittiwe could try a kind of "status whiteboard" where everyone says what they are working on and what's blocking them17:26
pitti(as you proposed)17:26
pittiwhen I have stuff like that, I usually just /query people, but that might not work for everyone, of course17:27
seb128jasoncwarner1, sorry I feel I hijacked the discussion with my view of the issue17:27
seb128jasoncwarner1, you might want to drive back ;-)17:27
pittiseb128: you seem to be particularly affected by this, so that was helpful17:27
seb128pitti, well part of it is to have things eager contributors could jump in with17:28
jasoncwarner1seb128: you are the more appropriate person to have the discussion ;)17:28
seb128pitti, like kenvandine's libdbusmenu issue17:28
pittiseb128: for contributors I still think that IRC is better than a board; talking to people >> staring at a (potentially outdated) board, but perhaps that's just me17:28
seb128there might be some contributor out there which could fix it if he,she knew we were blocked on it17:28
seb128or that kenvandine would welcome help to figure what is wrong17:29
seb128pitti, well, query people means you reach somebody specific17:30
seb128it works fine for a small team17:30
didrocks(sorry, have to pop into another meeting, I have no strong opinion on that and will follow you guys, I'll read back)17:30
pittiright, I mean as a contributor I could just come to #u-desktop and ask what's up17:30
seb128depending on the time of the day and who is around or busy that will work or not17:30
cyphermoxpitti, it can feel a little daunting to new contributors, especially towards the end of the release when things get really busy :)17:31
pittiwell, let's just say that I'm willing to try something, but don't have proposals on my own, since apparenlty I don't have that problem so much17:31
jasoncwarner1How about this, to limit the scope of the initial challenge, focus on the team and see if it works ?17:32
jasoncwarner1if it works, we can see if that same solution works on a broader sense?17:32
jasoncwarner1that might be helpful so we don't start to chase ourselves down the rabbit hole....17:33
cyphermoxwould it make sense for a different person each week to somewhat keep track of what goes on and publish that somewhere?17:33
tremoluxseems we are just talking about adding something "sticky", so maybe start lightweight with an etherpad page and add the link to the "If you want to help out" list at the IRC header17:33
pitticyphermox: we already have the weekly wiki page for that17:33
cyphermoxpitti, right17:34
pittithere's certainly ways to improve that17:34
seb128right17:34
pittiand we probably should start to mail that around again17:34
seb128ok, I see we have several issues and I raised only one there17:34
pitti(we did in the past)17:34
seb128so issues are17:34
seb128- the activity report are focussed on describing what we did task by task17:34
seb128where they would better be "things that readers could be interested in"17:35
seb128like coming transitions, breakages17:35
seb128important technologies landing17:35
seb128we do list all the updates we did, sponsoring, etc17:35
seb128we should maybe change that17:35
pittiwell, I try to do that already17:35
pittiI don't mention stuff like email, bug triaging, archive admin, SRU processing etc. any more17:36
seb128I don't, or didn't until robert pointed it17:36
pittibut I do write stuff like "fix startup crash in foo (#123)" or "port foo to libbar"17:36
seb128right17:37
pittiindeed it shouldn't be a time sheet17:37
seb128but we don't write things like libdbus soname breakage coming next week, be ready17:37
* jasoncwarner1 notes time. I have to run to a call in a few minutes17:37
seb128ok17:38
jasoncwarner1how about this17:38
pittiseb128: right, we could/should add that to the report17:38
pitti"Done:", "blocked by:", "plan for next week:"17:38
pitti?17:38
jasoncwarner1final action from this meeting would be for all of us to think about this for the week, watch our daily activities and see how it can be improved given this discussion? It might be interesting?17:39
jasoncwarner1pitti: I love that format17:39
seb128pitti, would be a nice start I think17:39
jasoncwarner1especially "blocked by"17:39
seb128if you read the second email from robert, how do we get there17:39
seb128"* x new bugs were opened, y were closed17:39
seb128* We completed x items in the work tracker.  We are ahead of the trend17:39
seb128line.17:39
seb128* x packages were updated in natty."17:39
seb128etc17:39
brycehseb128, that bit is scriptable17:39
seb128or rather things like17:39
seb128"* Remmina has replaced tsclient on the CD, please try it an let us17:40
seb128know if it is an improvement.17:40
seb128* We are behind in updating GNOME, please have a look at17:40
seb128http://people.canonical.com/~platform/desktop/versions.html and help17:40
seb128out if you can"17:40
seb128the first ones are regular tracking17:40
rodrigo_in the u1 team, we did quick daily standups, with DONE, TODO, BLOCKED sections for each person17:40
pittiare the stats really taht interesting?17:40
seb128but I think one things we lack is a nice summary of what is happening17:40
seb128something we could blog about once a week17:40
seb128like having a desktop world blog17:40
seb128pitti, no, I picked the wrong lines17:40
rodrigo_not sure if daily is too much, but they were 5/10 mins maximum17:40
brycehpitti, I don't think so.  Personally I think a graph would be better but even that is just for interest's sake really.17:40
rodrigo_and you knew what everyone was up to17:40
seb128not sure either17:41
pittibryceh: I agree; it's more interesting what changed than how much; and #opened bugs isn't really all that related to what we do, too17:41
brycehdesktop world blog -- like it :-)17:41
seb128robert suggested that17:41
seb128pitti, bryceh: yeah, forget the metrics datas17:41
pittirodrigo_: doesn't work that well with having people in all timezones17:41
rodrigo_yeah, right17:41
seb128ok17:42
rodrigo_but at least the eastern people could have a daily updater of what the western people are up to, and viceversa17:42
seb128so let's agree on some things to wrap17:42
pittibut such a summary could certainly be distilled from the individual reports on the weekly wiki report page17:42
brycehproblem with 'distilling' is that it imposes some secretarial work on some poor soul17:42
seb128is everybody ok with making the activity summaries reflect what would interest readers or contributors rather than being task lists?17:42
brycehand with as many people are there are on the desktop team, that'd be non-trivial17:42
seb128which would include blocking issues and plans for next week if any?17:43
brycehseb128, yes17:43
pittiseb128: +117:43
pittileave out the chore bits, and be more concrete17:43
seb128ok, great, so that's something17:43
seb128second, seems we need extra discussions17:43
pittiin the past I wrote stuff like "udev bug fixing", I now siwtched to "fix detection of DVD-RWs in udev"17:43
seb128but some people would like a whiteboard in some way17:43
brycehneeds more voting ;-)17:43
seb128etherpad, status.net17:44
seb128nobody would be forced to use it17:44
seb128but people could drop things they are blocking on17:44
seb128or tasks they would welcome help with17:44
seb128we can see if others pick those or if that's useful in some way17:44
seb128like an async light communication way out of IRC17:45
brycehpitti, in fact we might even need to be a bit more verbose than usual if we intend it to be end-user readable17:45
seb128for people who don't overlap on IRC17:45
pittibryceh: right, but in a different way; drop the uninteresting bits and make the interesting ones more verbose17:45
brycehpitti, exactly17:45
seb128ok17:46
seb128so I think we have agreement on that one at least17:46
brycehseb128, I like the idea of etherpad but I wonder if that might not be the easiest for end users to consume from.  Would someone be copying from there into a blog?17:46
seb128we need extra thinking about the whiteboard one17:47
seb128bryceh, that was my next point17:47
seb128ideally we would have someone each week doing a summary and blog or something17:47
seb128we could rotate on that17:47
seb128I don't really want to add extra tasks so maybe an opt-in from those interested17:47
brycehI mean, we could just each write a blog entry, and then mechanically collate them via a planetplanet17:47
seb128could be community people as well17:47
seb128well if people want to blog they can already do that17:48
seb128but seems most in the team don't and I don't think we should add constrains or tasks17:48
brycehseb128, I recall back when I started on desktop we would write up meeting summaries, but it was hard getting volunteers and somehow we stopped doing that17:48
pittiright, they were pretty much a text dump of the weekly wiki page17:49
brycehso that's my one worry with adding a summary writing task17:49
seb128right17:49
pittiso if we make the wiki page more useful, that woudl be beneficial again, too17:49
seb128well maybe if we improve the activity report enough and have an etherpad17:49
seb128it would be easier for contributors or people outside the team to pick up and make a nice weekly summary17:49
brycehyeah might be that fixing up activity reports is less work than writing meeting summaries had been17:49
seb128well if activity reports are nice it would be easy for someone to pick up the main points and blog or something17:50
seb128we might not need everything from the report17:50
seb128just a few highlights17:50
pitti(and include a link)17:50
brycehhow about rotate the task among desktoppers who are not doing patch pilot?  ;-)17:50
bryceh(kidding!)17:51
seb128lol17:52
* tremolux dreams to grow up to be a Patch Pilot someday17:52
tremolux:D17:52
seb128anyway I think we are going round now17:52
seb128so let's agree to improve the activity report summary17:52
brycehyeah sounds like we have a tangible enough plan17:52
seb128we can add the whiteboard or status.net for those who want17:52
seb128and let's see if we can motivate some contributor to pick up things from there and blog every now and then about what we do17:53
seb128one remaining thing17:53
seb128I find the unity, software-center, dx etc summary nice17:53
pitti*nod*17:54
seb128we should maybe have everybody in the team to do a short summary this way17:54
=== al-maisan is now known as almaisan-away
seb128of things they are doing17:54
=== alecu is now known as alecu-lunch
seb128or maybe that's just "get the activity reports nicer"17:54
pittiwas just going to say :)17:54
seb128maybe those should be the activity report from didrocks's week or tremolux's one17:54
tremoluxback when I rotated to foundations, we called it "lightning round"17:54
pittiwe actually did that in the past17:54
pittiI mean, haveing everyone standing up and paste their report17:54
seb128well I think we got bored to read those on IRC17:55
seb128or to wait from everybody to copy their summary17:55
seb128so maybe it should just be on the wiki17:55
seb128I think we are back to improve the activity reports17:55
seb128so let's wrap up ;-)17:55
seb128and see what we can do from those17:55
seb128we can probably learn a bit over time by seeing what format people come with exactly and what is nicer to read17:56
brycehoh one other suggestion17:56
seb128I've the feeling that summaries to the one we do for unity etc every week now are what we want17:56
brycehmore screenshots, graphs, and other eye candy please :-)17:56
seb128summaries similar17:57
brycehthey'll make the reading more fun, and wiki supports embedding them17:57
seb128yeah, that would be nice as well17:57
seb128anybody having something to add?17:57
seb128jasoncwarner1, when you are back, I think we agreed on trying to improve the activity reports to be summary of what can be interesting to readers including blockers and what is coming next17:59
seb128rather than detailed list of items17:59
seb128with screenshots, etc if possible18:00
seb128jasoncwarner1, we might still want to think about how we could do dump day to day thoughts, ideas, call for help on issues, etc for next week18:00
seb128then we might want to try to see if can reach users in a better way than having them to go on the wiki18:01
seb128like select week highlights in the weekly summary and the whiteboard and blog about them18:01
seb128 18:01
seb128^ seems a correct summary to everybody?18:01
mterryyar18:02
brycehyep18:02
rodrigo_yes18:02
didrocksyes!18:02
* didrocks will add a blocker: "read the ubuntu-desktop ML" right now on the wiki :)18:02
seb128great, sorry for being verbose ;-)18:02
seb128lol18:02
brycehhehe18:02
rodrigo_:)18:02
seb128didrocks, good point as well18:02
seb128we might want to move some of the discussions from IRC to lists18:02
rodrigo_+118:02
seb128seems people get overpinged nowadays and we don't have everybody online at the same time18:03
seb128so we can probably reduce ping stress and include extra people in discussions by using the lists18:03
didrocks+118:04
seb128ok, back to work18:05
seb128rodrigo_, did you get somewhere with gnome-applets?18:05
seb128jcastro, hey18:05
jcastroseb128: yes18:06
seb128jcastro, did you talk to tomboy's upstream since summit?18:06
seb128jcastro, do you know if he still plans to drop the applet this cycle?18:06
rodrigo_seb128, still fixing the invest applet, the package branch is ready but don't want to submit it until that is fixed18:06
jcastroabout the quicklist thing?18:06
jcastroyeah, let me catch up with him again, I know he was behind on some things18:06
didrockscyphermox: did you get somewhere with the e-d-s crash?18:07
seb128jcastro, I just want to make sure I will not create conflicts if I drop it in Ubuntu let's say now18:07
didrockscyphermox: at least, if I can upload that before leaving, this will enable the other dep-wait to build18:07
seb128jcastro, when rodrigo_'s land his fixes for the invest applet we can get ride of the bonobo stack this way18:07
* tremolux goes in search of lunch, bbl18:07
seb128jcastro, it's only a few applets keeping that in, tomboy being one18:08
jcastroseb128: ok, we can drop it18:09
jcastrohe's going to continue to support it upstream for older stuff18:10
jcastroseb128: so I guess even in the fallback mode the applets will be gone?18:10
seb128jcastro, no, there is a bonobo compat binary18:10
seb128jcastro, we will just not install it by default18:10
seb128jcastro, if somebody wants an old applet there is just that binary to get18:11
seb128which will reinstall bonobo18:11
jcastrooh ok18:11
seb128jcastro, that and gnome-panel applets use dbus nowadays18:11
jcastronod18:11
cyphermoxdidrocks, yes18:11
jcastrook so I guess drop it next upload seb128?18:11
seb128so people can also port their applet to dbus18:11
seb128jcastro, yes18:12
jcastrohe's had it off by default in upstream for a cycle he tells me18:12
seb128ok great18:12
jcastroare we going to have a party when Bonobo is gone?18:12
rodrigo_seb128, another review needed -> https://code.launchpad.net/~rodrigo-moya/ubuntu/natty/gnome-bluetooth/2_91_2_release/+merge/4162018:13
seb128if you want ;-)18:13
jcastroI feel kind of ... sad. (Not really)18:13
rodrigo_jcastro, yes :)18:13
seb128rodrigo_, ok, I'm fixing g-c-c18:13
chrisccoulsondid somebody just say PARTY? :)18:13
rodrigo_seb128, oh, what was wrong?you already merged it right?18:13
seb128rodrigo_, I did, I'm doing a review now18:13
seb128rodrigo_, comments:18:13
seb128- you should not install the .la and .a for all the panels18:14
seb128just the .so should be enough18:14
didrockscyphermox: hum, I'm leaving soon, so my question was: do you have the patch or a debdiff? :)18:14
seb128- the libg-c-c api documentation should be in a the lib -dev18:14
cyphermoxhold on, I have a debdiff18:14
seb128not in capplets-data18:14
rodrigo_seb128, ok18:15
seb128- we should still have a gnome-control-center-dev I think18:15
seb128to ship gnome-default-applications.pc and gnome-keybindings.pc18:15
rodrigo_seb128, right18:15
rodrigo_seb128, are you fixing these or should I in another branch?18:16
seb128rodrigo_, I think that's it for now18:16
seb128rodrigo_, as you want18:16
seb128if you want to fix those tell me18:16
seb128otherwise I can do it18:16
rodrigo_seb128, let me fix it, so that I learn more :)18:16
seb128ok ;-)18:16
seb128rodrigo_, you can update standards-version to 3.9.1 while you are at it18:17
seb128rodrigo_, configure: WARNING: unrecognized options: --enable-aboutme, --enable-gstreamer18:17
seb128as well to clean in the rules18:17
cyphermoxdidrocks, http://paste.ubuntu.com/535617/18:17
rodrigo_seb128, ok18:17
seb128rodrigo_, bonus point if you add a .symbols to the lib18:18
didrockscyphermox: thanks, applying against the branch18:18
cyphermoxdidrocks, sorry, i trashed the branch as I was preparing the SRUs :/18:18
didrockscyphermox: you should keep subdirectories with component/<ubuntu>;<maverick> and such…18:19
seb128rodrigo_, you can probably as well drop the gnome-keyboard-properties.1 from the debian dir18:19
didrockscyphermox: no worry, I applied it and build now18:19
seb128rodrigo_, since the binary is not in the new version18:19
seb128rodrigo_, I think that's it18:20
cyphermoxdidrocks, I do use subdirectories for this stuff ;)18:20
didrockscyphermox: seems not the right worflow then :)18:20
didrocksok, building, let's see18:20
cyphermoxhehe18:20
rodrigo_seb128, ok, will fix those later, now out for a bit18:21
seb128rodrigo_, sure, tomorrow is fine no hurry18:21
highvoltagehowdy!18:34
seb128kenvandine, hey18:34
highvoltagewe synced sabayon from debian which depends on gdm318:34
seb128kenvandine, what is the status of the updates from ted? still blocked?18:35
seb128highvoltage, hey18:35
seb128highvoltage, we might want to patch it to not do that then18:35
highvoltagewhat's the plans for natty regarding that? should we wait for gdm3 to hit the archives or is Ubuntu staying with the old gdm until it gets replaced by something like lightdm?18:35
seb128old gdm?18:35
kenvandinestill blocked18:35
kenvandinebut he is working on it now18:35
seb128ubuntu is shipped gdm3 as gdm for 3 cycles18:35
seb128shipping18:36
highvoltageseb128: I was convinced that it was 2.30! ok.18:36
seb128kenvandine, ok, could you open a bug about the issue if that's not solved today?18:36
kenvandinesure18:36
didrockscyphermox: sponsored, thanks!18:36
seb128highvoltage, what debian call gdm3 is 2.3018:36
cyphermoxthx18:36
seb128highvoltage, http://packages.qa.debian.org/gdm318:36
seb128kenvandine, thanks18:37
highvoltageseb128: ah, ok. in that case I'll just patch the package, thanks!18:37
seb128kenvandine, we might just have better visibility on the issue and people able to help if we have public tracking in a bug18:37
seb128highvoltage, thank you!18:37
highvoltagemy pleasure18:38
=== alecu-lunch is now known as alecu
ari-tczewseb128: what? gdm3 will be in ubuntu? I'm asking because I merged a couple of days ago meta-gnome2 and I had to change gdm3 => gdm since we have not gdm3 in archive18:40
seb128no18:41
seb128it's named gdm in ubuntu18:41
seb128the standard gdm is gdm318:41
highvoltageari-tczew: seems like the debian package just has a different name (gdm3) for what's called gdm in ubuntu18:41
highvoltage(so you did the right thing)18:41
highvoltageseb128: would it perhaps make sense to make gdm in ubuntu provide gdm3 rather than patching all these other packages?18:42
highvoltage(I guess there will be more)18:42
ari-tczewright, I see no sense18:43
seb128highvoltage, well, if our packaging is compatible18:43
=== oubiwann-away is now known as oubiwann
seb128"   * 02_xsession.patch: use /etc/gdm3/Xsession."18:43
seb128I see that in sabayon18:43
=== maxb_ is now known as maxb
seb128which suggests the packaging is different18:43
highvoltageah, I see18:43
seb128having a provides would suggest things would work when they don't18:44
highvoltageseb128: ok, I'll change the dependency to gdm then and remove the patches18:46
seb128highvoltage, thanks18:46
kenvandinemterry, just looking at launchpad-integration18:50
kenvandineit might be a good idea to add this to lib/Makefile.am18:50
kenvandineLaunchpadIntegration_3_0_gir_PACKAGES = launchpad-integration18:50
kenvandinejust in case at somepoint vapigen can't figure out the package, we don't need to try to figure out why :)18:50
didrockssee you tomorrow guys!18:57
kenvandinelater didrocks!19:00
didrockssee you kenvandine!19:00
=== Bertrand is now known as bl8
chrisccoulsonpitti - so xulrunner-2.0-mozjs has an installed size of 3664kB. that compares to 39964kB for the whole lot19:14
chrisccoulsonnot sure what that works out as in terms of compressed size on the CD19:14
kenvandinechrisccoulson, nice!19:17
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mterrykenvandine, thanks19:31
albasheersunable to boot my latop  , laptop stops at initramfs19:51
dobeyalbasheers: #ubuntu is probably a more appropriate place to ask19:51
albasheersok19:51
bcurtiswxbigon, re: bug #620733 is there a decision that needs to be made that makes dconf depends instead of recommends ?19:52
ubot2Launchpad bug 620733 in glib2.0 (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Empathy does not remember settings (affects: 12) (dups: 3) (heat: 70)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/62073319:52
=== Bertrand is now known as bl8
bigonbcurtiswx: well dconf is only a backend20:03
bcurtiswxbigon, without it setting are or are not stored somewhere?20:03
Nafallowithout libdconf0 my settings didn't get saved for sure.20:04
bigonit's why it's a recommends20:04
bcurtiswxso our assumption in that case is most package managers install recommends by default ?20:04
bigonthey should20:05
bigonThis declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.20:05
bigonThe Recommends field should list packages that would be found together with this one in all but unusual installations.20:05
bcurtiswxso do we just say to those without libdconf0 installed that its not a bug , and to install it and recommend they keeps recommends installed ?20:06
bigonwell if the package is not pulled by default this is a problem, that's true20:07
Nafallobigon: so we are assuming there will be people out there that want their application to not be able to save it's settings, is that the takeaway of the conversation then?20:07
bigonbut not on the pkg side, but on the pkg manager side20:08
bigonIMHO20:08
bcurtiswxbigon, OK. thanks :)20:12
Nafalloin this specific case I'd say it's a packaging bug... saving and reading settings should not be optional actions.20:13
Nafallorecommends and suggestions should be for optional actions I'd say.20:13
bigonNafallo: recommends is "always installed but unusual installation"20:15
bigonthat seems to fit here20:15
Nafallobigon: point out the unusual installation where you want the application to not save and read your settings?20:15
NafalloI know what recommends are for. my issue with this is that I'm unable to see where it would make sense not being able to save your settings.20:17
bigonuse another backend20:17
bigonthat's the unusual installation20:17
NafalloI would be happy to keep using gconf for empathy, but without libdconf0, the package doesn't fall back to gconf.20:18
Nafallomake it do that, and I wouldn't consider libdconf0 a dependency.20:18
Nafalloit needs to be able to fall back gracefully. not break and let the user find out why.20:18
NafalloI'd be a lot happier with a depency of <what gconf package is> | libdconf0 and whatever else the application will automagically fall back on20:20
Nafalloin the current state,  the application is in a broken state unless libdconf0 is installed. how can this not be a grave enough issue to make it a depency?20:21
Sarvattchrisccoulson: thanks again, the updated xulrunner-1.9.2 works here :)20:22
bigonNafallo: well I'm not even sure that empathy should even recommends it, that should be IMHO glib package (dconf is a backend of GSettings, a glib part)20:25
bigonand to say everything I'm not even sure I've the rights to upload emapthy20:26
Nafallohmm. so empathy should use gsettings by default and that should in turn find out where to store stuff? :-)20:26
=== Bertrand is now known as bl8
Nafallo(all I know the application is broken without libdconf0 installed today, which makes bugs valid)20:27
bigonNafallo: empathy is already using gsettings20:29
Nafallobigon: hmm. so this is really a bug in gsettings not falling back to whatever backend is available then? :-)20:30
Nafallocause that makes more sense to me.20:30
Nafallohrm. actually... it would have to be more fun than that, wouldn't it :-/20:31
* Nafallo goes to read up on gsettings20:33
=== Bertrand is now known as bl8
seb128re20:34
bigonNafallo: it's not falling back because there is no backend20:34
seb128Nafallo, catching up on backlog20:34
seb128Nafallo, dconf is a recommends because you could have your own backend and use that20:34
seb128we should probably do depends on dconf | gsettings-backend20:34
seb128we should probably do depends on dconf | gsettings-backend20:35
seb128ups20:35
Nafalloseb128: there you are! I was looking for you just now ;-)20:35
seb128well that's what said last cycle at the sprint20:36
seb128we just didn't get anybody in debian to buy in20:36
Nafalloseb128: if I read live.g.o correctly dconf is supposed to be the fallback? :-)20:36
Nafallo(for gsettings)20:36
seb128well it's the recommended backend for GNOME20:36
seb128but it's only one backend20:37
bigonI'm still wondering why dconf is not installed by default as recommends20:37
seb128so having a depends on it would be wrong20:37
Nafalloand gconf is deprecated, but can be a backend of gsettings?20:37
seb128well people like Nafallo probably use the command line to upgrade20:37
seb128they might decide to not install recommends by default20:37
seb128Nafallo, no it can't20:37
Nafalloseb128: not only that. I try to keep minimal packages installed, so recommends is high on my hit list ;-)20:37
bcurtiswxyeah i upgrade through apt-get, does apt-get install recommends b y default ?20:38
seb128it does20:38
seb128but reading through bugs I would not be surprised if there was buggy cases20:38
seb128especially when upgrading20:38
seb128like you had empathy install and you upgrade20:38
seb128it might not pick the new recommends20:38
bcurtiswxwell if Nafallo is right and it defaults to dconf, then shouldn't that be depends ?20:39
seb128it would pick it if you did apt-get install it when it was not installed20:39
bcurtiswxbecause settings _need_ to be saved somehow20:39
seb128bcurtiswx, not without a | gsettings-backend20:39
seb128because you might be in a company which decide to do a ldap-gsettings20:39
seb128and you want to remove dconf and use it20:39
seb128which works20:39
seb128you should not have to rebuild everything using gsettings to drop the dconf backend depends20:40
Nafalloseb128: so... just because I just thought about it... say you have dconf with a lot of settings installed. then you install one of these other backends... what happens to all the settings?20:40
seb128Nafallo, I guess nothing20:40
seb128you need migration code in your backend20:40
bcurtiswxwhat backend does empath use by default ?20:41
seb128gsettings20:41
Nafallo(which is not the backend) :-)20:41
seb128well client application don't use a backend20:41
seb128that's the point20:41
seb128they should not have to bother what the storage is20:42
Nafallothe question needs to be what gsettings use by default20:42
seb128they use the gsettings api20:42
Nafallobut yeah... seb128 has said what we need ;-)20:42
seb128it's a theorical question20:42
seb128gsettings is a backend20:42
bigonwhat I can do is conflicts/replaces/provides gsettings-backend on dconf20:42
seb128it just doesn't have storage20:42
bcurtiswxOK, so onto what bigon and myself are wondering.. why wouldn't dconf get installed on a fresh install ?20:42
seb128which is fine for testing but that's about it20:43
seb128in practice you want a backend with storage20:43
seb128the only one is dconf so far I think20:43
seb128if you had several ones you would need to rank them20:43
seb128but that's a theorical issue so far because we have one20:43
seb128bcurtiswx, it gets installed on fresh installs20:43
seb128out of people who think they know better and don't need recommends20:44
seb128which might use command line and turn off recommends20:44
NafalloI bet I de-installed it because I thought "crack, just use gconf, you muppet!" :-P20:44
kenvandinetedg, hey... i might have dbusmenu gir generation fixed20:44
seb128well you got what you deserved then ;-)20:44
seb128joke aside it's a bug20:45
kenvandinefor both gtk2 and gtk320:45
kenvandinetedg, let me send you the resulting file and see what you think20:45
bigonseb128: so libglib2.0-0 should depends on it20:45
bcurtiswxseb128, i have a bug where someone says it did not.  I wouldn't know what to ask in a triage standpoint20:45
seb128bigon, no20:45
tedgkenvandine, Woot!20:45
Nafalloseb128: je t'aime tu aussi ;-)20:45
seb128lol20:45
Nafallobah. that was likely very broken for being french :-P20:45
bigons/tu/toi :p20:46
seb128not very,20:46
seb128-tu rather20:46
seb128but "toi" would be correct at least20:46
seb128just a bit weird ;-)20:46
Nafalloheh, makes sense :-)20:46
NafalloI'll do better next time you troll me :-P20:46
seb128well really applications should depends on dconf | gsettings-backend20:47
seb128then other backends can provide gsettings backend20:47
seb128if any other backend is written20:47
seb128which would solve the issue20:47
Nafallohmm.20:47
Nafalloseb128: gsettings isn't a package in itself? :-)20:47
seb128no20:47
seb128it's part of glib20:47
kenvandinetedg, i sent it via jabber...20:48
seb128that's why we don't want to add the depends there20:48
Nafallomeh20:48
Nafallookay.20:48
seb128lot of things use glib but not gio or gsettings20:48
Nafalloseb128: so... why can't dconf just be a gsettings-backend, fulfilling stuff depending on gsettings-backend that way?20:48
seb128because the usual packaging way is to use "thepreferredalternative | provide"20:49
seb128so the resolver picks correctly the preferred alternative20:49
seb128if you just use the provide you don't get a random behaviour when several provides are available20:49
seb128don't -> do20:49
seb128it's like "install dconf if not asking for another backend"20:50
seb128when your way would be "just pick one"20:50
* Nafallo nods20:50
bigonseb128: in that case we need an extra wrapper (like for gconf) to add the dependency automatically don't we?20:50
Nafalloand we haven't got an alternative approach to that I guess :-P20:50
seb128it would be better to add it to the same way gconf is doing yes20:50
Nafalloseb128: hey... we should ask mvo to implement an alternative approach to this problem! ;-)20:51
bcurtiswxseb128, so what would we do for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/empathy/+bug/62073320:52
ubot2Launchpad bug 620733 in glib2.0 (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "Empathy does not remember settings (affects: 12) (dups: 3) (heat: 70)" [Undecided,New]20:52
seb128it's not a glib bug in any case20:53
seb128there is probably an apt bug there20:53
seb128it seems it doesn't install recommends in upgrade cases20:53
seb128which should be checked it's just a guess20:53
Nafalloseb128: I still don't agree it is a recommends :-)20:53
Nafallo(fwiw)20:54
bcurtiswxwho are the apt people to ask ?20:54
seb128but seems like if you had empathy installed and apt-get upgrade it doesn't bring the new recommends in20:54
* bcurtiswx has killed seb128 again20:55
tedgkenvandine, That looks sane to me.20:55
kenvandinegreat20:55
Nafallobcurtiswx: maybe he got distracted by tetris...20:55
kenvandinetedg, i did some fiddling with scanner flags20:55
kenvandinetedg, i'll propose a merge in a few20:56
tedgkenvandine, Cool20:56
bcurtiswxwb seb12820:57
seb128ups20:57
seb128bcurtiswx, the apt person is probably mvo20:57
bcurtiswxthat semicircle with a line in the opening is not a solve-all problem ya know :P20:57
seb128Nafallo, yeah, I agree, it should be a depends with an alternative20:57
kenvandineseb128, ok, i think i have the gir stuff with dbusmenu fixed20:57
kenvandinefor both gtk2 and gtk320:58
seb128kenvandine, you rock ;-)20:58
seb128kenvandine, what was it?20:58
kenvandineso i'll propose this branch then try to get the packaging right20:58
bcurtiswxwhen is mvo usually available ?20:58
kenvandinescanner flags20:58
kenvandineneeded to add more20:58
Nafalloseb128: +55520:58
kenvandineto get the namespaces right20:58
seb128bcurtiswx, european work hours20:59
bcurtiswxUTC +2/3 ?20:59
seb128utc+120:59
seb128starting at 9utc20:59
bcurtiswxOK, i'll try to remember to talk to him about that bug tomorrow21:00
seb128or a bit a before21:00
seb128ok21:00
kenvandineof course now gtk-docs don't build21:00
* kenvandine fixes21:00
seb128kenvandine, ok, so easy enough once you know what to do21:00
kenvandineyeah21:00
kenvandinejust the results we were getting were odd21:00
kenvandineGIR is maturing, becoming more complex :)21:00
bcurtiswxseb128, im assuming webkitgtk is still having problems building ?21:01
seb128bcurtiswx, the gtk3 version is in the ppa21:02
seb128if that's what you are asking there21:02
seb128bcurtiswx, you should have what you need to update empathy I would think21:02
seb128gnome-keyring and webkit are in the ppa21:02
bcurtiswxOK, the ubuntu-desktop PPA ?21:03
bcurtiswxppa:ubuntu-desktop/ppa ?21:03
seb128the gnome3 build there yes21:03
seb128no, there is a specific for the gnome3 builds21:03
seb128check on the launchpad page for the team21:03
seb128https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/+archive/gnome3-builds21:04
seb128bcurtiswx, ^21:04
bcurtiswxseb128, thanks21:05
seb128yw21:05
bcurtiswxhmm, apt is trying to remove evolution21:06
* Nafallo taps apt on the head. good program!21:06
Nafallo;-)21:06
seb128bcurtiswx, didn't check why but wait a bit for the new version to be built21:07
seb128you probably catch a time where some components are built but not evo itself yet21:07
bcurtiswxyeah I am, it usually calms down after an hour or two of catch up21:08
bigonseb128: I will open a wishlist bug on debian bts to add a dh_gsettings into debhelper, ok for you?21:11
seb128seems fine yes21:12
seb128thank you21:12
pittigood night everyone21:18
kenvandinegood night pitti21:18
seb128'night pitti21:18
kenvandinetedg, https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/dbusmenu/natty-gtk3-fixes/+merge/4165821:22
=== Bertrand is now known as bl8
bcurtiswxi'm assuming all empathy patches because they were written in gtk2 will need extensive work to make them gtk3 ?21:24
bcurtiswxor is there some kind of tool to use ?21:25
seb128they should not21:25
seb128gtk2 and gtk3 are mostly the same21:25
seb128if you build on gtk2 without deprecated api use you build with gtk321:25
seb128you just need to change the configure to do gtk2->gtk3 or so21:26
bcurtiswxconfigure.ac ?21:26
TheMusokenvandine: Congrats!21:27
ari-tczewkklimonda: g-s-d is in lucid-proposed. will be build soon. go ahead ;)21:27
seb128bcurtiswx, yes21:28
seb128bcurtiswx, it's slightly harder than that but most of the code should be identic21:28
kenvandineTheMuso, thx21:28
bcurtiswxso best case scenario patches are just off by a lot and should be OK21:28
bcurtiswxi'll cross my fingers21:29
AmaranthTechnically what seb128 said is true, so far, but deprecating a ton of stuff in the last 2.x GTK+ release is cheating a bit21:43
=== asac_ is now known as asac
bcurtiswxhmm, i try to use a 2nd terminal window and i get the error *** VTE ***: Failed to load terminal capabilities from '/etc/termcap'22:05
bcurtiswxfile doesn't exist22:05
bcurtiswxmaybe a restart.. would help?22:06
bcurtiswxyeah odd, now i see it upon terminal load.. *** VTE ***: Failed to load terminal capabilities from '/etc/termcap'22:15
bcurtiswxand i can't hit enter to submit any commands22:16
bcurtiswxlol22:16
bcurtiswxfixed, just touch that file and no more errors and/or problems22:18
kieppiehi guys. does anyone know of an HTML5-based window manager?23:45

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