[14:52] <charlie-tca> Good morning
[14:53] <davmor2> charlie-tca: morning
[14:55] <charlie-tca> davmor2: How goes it today?
[14:55] <davmor2> charlie-tca: mostly up I got unity working thanks to njpatel
[14:56] <charlie-tca> Great! He is good with it.
[14:56] <davmor2> charlie-tca: it turned out that compiz got screwed in the upgrade
[14:56] <davmor2> charlie-tca: so half the plugins weren't enabled
[14:57] <charlie-tca> ah-ha. That will do it
[15:02] <charlie-tca> I managed to get caught by bug 678196
[16:11] <persia> charlie-tca, Did you manage to select which installation targets you planned to release for natty?
[16:13] <charlie-tca> persia, I don't understand
[16:13] <charlie-tca> You mean, the default apps?
[16:15] <persia> charlie-tca, So, there are Xubuntu Desktop images that will be published.  I know you want i386 and powerpc images.  I suspect you want amd64 images.  I'm not sure if you want amd64+mac images (if they exist), because I don't know if you have testers for them.  I'm also not sure if you have testers for armel+imx51.  I don't know if you have testers for any other sort of armel.
[16:17] <charlie-tca> Oh, okay. Yes, I want i386 and amd64 images. I have to see if I have the testers for the powerpc and ps3 images. Right now, I have to say I do not have them.
[16:18] <persia> and armel?
[16:18] <charlie-tca> no
[16:18] <cody-somerville> I might be able to commit to testing on armel.
[16:18] <persia> heh.  I heard mumblings from micahg as well.
[16:18]  * SiDi notices new people here.
[16:18] <SiDi> Hi everybody
[16:18] <cody-somerville> Hi SiDi :-)
[16:18] <persia> charlie-tca, So, could you check which targets you can find people to test, and get back to me by alpha 1 release?
[16:18] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville, we don't have armel, but if we have testers, we can commit to them. 
[16:19] <charlie-tca> yes, persia 
[16:19] <persia> Thanks :)
[16:19] <cody-somerville> Do we currently produce an armel image?
[16:19] <charlie-tca> Thank you
[16:19] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville, no
[16:19] <persia> You don't.  I turned them off as horridly broken in Jaunty, and nobody ever turned them back on.
[16:19] <charlie-tca> We currently have alternate and desktop i386 and amd64
[16:19] <charlie-tca> We also have powerpc and ps3 images
[16:19] <SiDi> hello cody-somerville, hows things been?
[16:20] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, persia, Can we get armel turned back on for natty? I'd be interested in tinkering with it.
[16:20] <charlie-tca> However, without committed testers, we won't have anything except alternate and desktop
[16:20] <charlie-tca> Yes, I believe we can
[16:20] <cody-somerville> SiDi, Not too shabby. Hurt my back last week so am a little sore but besides that in good spirits. Yourself?
[16:21] <persia> cody-somerville, Yes, but not for alpha-1.  Needs to identify specifically which install targets are to be enabled, and have committed testers.
[16:21] <SiDi> cody-somerville: i'm horribly pissed cause i wasted a whole project day doing nothing because of things outside of my control. Apart from that life is cool and i keep myself busy all the time
[16:22] <cody-somerville> persia, Is there no way to just have it built but not be a candidate for alpha-1?
[16:22] <persia> cody-somerville, So you need to determine which of e.g. imx51, omap, omap4 you can test.  Also, just being able to test doesn't mean it works: images which consistently fail to build (e.g. no kernel) are likely to get complaints from the cdimage team.
[16:22] <charlie-tca> persia, we may not have alpha1. We are merging xfce 4.7, and will need to keep gtk1 now
[16:22] <charlie-tca> rather gtk2
[16:22] <persia> charlie-tca, No worries.
[16:22] <persia> cody-somerville, There might be a way, but the way isn't to talk to me and have me put it on the list to give to the release team for alpha-2 candidate planning.
[16:23] <cody-somerville> persia, Aren't you on the cdimage team? :P
[16:23] <persia> No.
[16:23] <cody-somerville> persia, Should I talk to the release team or the cdimage team?
[16:23] <persia> I'm just the person assigned the task of talking to all the flavours to identify people responsible for the set of images being released.
[16:25] <persia> I'd talk to the release team to notify them you don't plan for a certain image to be a candidate, and then to the cdimage team about enabling the build.
[16:25] <persia> But you'll need to tell me who is responsible for which targets for Alpha-2 anyway, and I don't think there are any armel kernels for alpha-1 (well, maybe omap4)
[16:25] <charlie-tca> I will get with the release team on the candidate. I am waiting to be sure before I say no to building it
[16:26] <mr_pouit> mmh, are there actually some powerpc testers/developers for xubuntu?
[16:26] <charlie-tca> We did have some testers for lucid and maverick. I need to see if they are still around
[16:26] <cody-somerville> For playstation, what version of playstation is required to test that?
[16:26] <persia> Lots of the powerpc users seem to want to run Xubuntu, but testing seems not frequent (much of the time the images are oversize, or don't work for some other reason)
[16:27] <persia> I think you need an old (fat) playstation which hasn't been connected to the internet since Sony released the no-more-linux patch.
[16:27] <mr_pouit> well, the core libs of xfce 4.7 ftbfs on powerpc, and I don't have any to debug, so ;]
[16:28] <persia> mr_pouit, Try asking for help in #ubuntu-powerpc.  I don't have time tonight, but sometimes I do, as do others who are there.
[16:28] <cody-somerville> I think I have a playstation 2 but I don't think its 'fat'.
[16:28] <persia> Needs to be a playstation3, and not the slim playstation3.
[16:28] <persia> I think playstation2 was a different architecture.
[16:30] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville, will you talk to the cdimage team about armel?
[16:30] <cody-somerville> Yes.
[16:30] <charlie-tca> I will find out about ps3 and powerpc testers and get back to persia on it
[16:31] <mr_pouit> I think for the products we have i386 and amd64 for sure. All other arches depend on having testers and at least one dev with such hw to fix ftbfs and other arch-specific issues =]
[16:31] <persia> charlie-tca, If you can, telling me who is the best contact to confirm milestone/release approval for each install target would be ideal, once you've collected the information.
[16:31] <charlie-tca> persia, I will do that. thanks
[16:33] <persia> Wonderful.  Thanks a lot!
[16:33] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit, maybe between cody-somerville and micahg we can do the armel images, at least. micahg talked to me about that at uds, too.
[16:34] <mr_pouit> okay, nice
[16:35] <cody-somerville> Okay. We won't be able to do armel for alpha-1 as the ARM board I have required imx51 kernel which won't be available until maybe alpha-2
[16:35] <cody-somerville> Unless someone has a board that does have a working kernel for it
[16:36] <mr_pouit> well, we can decide to drop the alpha 1 (so I can upload xfce4-panel immediately :p)
[16:36] <charlie-tca> Oh, well, I will check with micahg then. He has an armel system too. 
[16:36] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit, if we are sure we won't make it, then let's do it.
[16:37] <charlie-tca> Aren't we better off to start now, and make sure we get a good image for alpha2, then to wait and then have things fall apart again?
[16:37] <cody-somerville> Is Xubuntu natty in an installable state currently? We still have a week.
[16:38] <cody-somerville> I see value to getting alpha-1 out to maintain cadence
[16:38] <charlie-tca> The alternate image is. I haven't tried the desktop image this week
[16:39] <charlie-tca> I would prefer we get the images together, and give enough time to get xfce4.7 working right.
[16:40] <cody-somerville> mr_pouit, Are we going to risk being oversized due to gtk2 + gtk3? I assume we'll probably end up pulling in gtk3 as well or are you planning to avoid that?
[16:40] <charlie-tca> delaying 4.7 for alpha1 seems to putting the cart out front of the horse, since we will have to replace the image anyway.
[16:40] <mr_pouit> haha, currently we have gtk2+3 and python2.6+2.7 cody-somerville 
[16:40] <mr_pouit> so completely oversized
[16:40] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, yea, delaying would be worse
[16:41] <charlie-tca> but don't we have to keep gtk2 with xfce 4.8?
[16:41] <mr_pouit> and unless we drop jockey & co, we have to keep gtk3
[16:41] <mr_pouit> so we're basically stuck with gtk2+3 without real choice
[16:41] <charlie-tca> ouch
[16:42] <cody-somerville> Ubuntu is in the same boat.
[16:42] <mr_pouit> no, because they chose to switch to gtk3
[16:42] <mr_pouit> they lead the boat, it's different
[16:43] <cody-somerville> AFAIK, they won't be able to migrate everything to gtk3 in time
[16:43] <cody-somerville> If the list of things pulling in gtk3 is small enough we might be able to maintain two binary packages - one gtk2 and gtk3 - for natty (if necessary).
[16:45] <mr_pouit> anyway, I can wait a week before uploading xfce4-panel 4.7, so let's try to release this alpha 1 :)
[16:46] <charlie-tca> Okay. who will be the contact? Me, you, cody-somerville ?
[16:47] <cody-somerville> Sorry to flip-flop but do we really want to release an alpha-1? In our case, it may indeed be better to just start uploading 4.7. Is there a possibility we can upload 4.7 and still release alpha-1 at all?
[16:47] <mr_pouit> yeah, probability about 0.00000001%
[16:48] <mr_pouit> all 4.6 panel plugins conflict against the 4.7 panel
[16:49] <mr_pouit> (so until they are all rebuilt, the desktop won't be installable)
[16:49] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit, I still am thinking "why alpha1"? If we are making that big a change, alpha1 is not indicative of the natty release.
[16:49] <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: yeah, I'm thinking this also, but I prefer if we all agree that we won't release it before I start the breakage :p
[16:50] <charlie-tca> I would prefer we skip alpha1, and just start in with the breaks
[16:51] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville, flip-flop is good. It lets us look at all the issues.
[16:51] <cody-somerville> I'm inclined to agree. Can I suggest that we ask the Ubuntu release team for their opinion? I mean, I'm sure they personally don't care but it would be nice to get their professional opinion on what they'd do if they were in the same shoes.
[16:52] <mr_pouit> probably upload in a ppa, and upload to the archive only when it's fully ready (all plugins rebuilt)
[16:53] <cody-somerville> Is there any reason we're not considering that?
[16:53] <charlie-tca> Good suggestion. 
[16:54] <mr_pouit> yeah, some reason like "it's natty, we've not even reached alpha 1, this can break"
[16:55] <mr_pouit> but I can start uploading to ~xubuntu-dev/ppa/natty if you prefer
[16:57] <mr_pouit> (oops, gtg, I'll read the backlog :)
[16:57] <charlie-tca> Let's ask the release team for an opinion. We just ask in #ubuntu-release or is there a mailing list?
[16:57] <cody-somerville> If we can start working on 4.7 without breaking so that we can release alpha-1 (which I think has value) then I think that makes the most sense.
[16:57] <cody-somerville> charlie-tca, I'd just ask in #ubuntu-release.
[16:58] <cody-somerville> Furthermore, if alpha-1 is released, we can note that "hey, 4.7 is starting to brew in this PPA - feel free to help test" which would be a bit more difficult if they can't install Xubuntu natty at all ;)
[16:59] <charlie-tca> what I see as the major thing here is we are going to break natty for month or so. Even if we release alpha1, breaking it for a month is going to be a block for anyone that downloaded alpha1
[17:00] <cody-somerville> I think the benefits from releasing alpha-1 might be more project/community centric then provide any real value development wise.
[17:01] <charlie-tca> I disagree. I don't like the idea that we release alpha1, some will install it, and then we will most likely break it. I would prefer we break it and not advertise an alpha1 release.
[17:03] <charlie-tca> Oh, maybe I am thinking wrong again. The main break will be the desktop images, not the installed systems.
[17:05] <cody-somerville> Well, development release is expected to break and only be somewhat stable/usable around alphas
[17:05] <charlie-tca> Okay, taking this to the release team, then. Got to keep my thinking straight, I guess.
[17:08] <charlie-tca> did I word that right?
[20:37] <mr_pouit> there's already a ppa for lucid, so this "hey, 4.7 is starting to brew in this PPA - feel free to help test" is misleading and not so useful
[23:02] <cody-somerville> mr_pouit, then lets rebuild for natty and then copy the packages into natty? ;)
[23:03] <micahg> I can help with the universe rebuilds if you like
[23:51] <charlie-tca> I'm back, finally
[23:51] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville, 
[23:52] <charlie-tca> what happened? I lost internet due to a blizzard here. 
[23:54] <micahg> charlie-tca: we released Natty 5 months early :D
[23:55] <charlie-tca> Great! 
[23:56]  * micahg has to remember to keep the embellishments believable
[23:56] <charlie-tca> micahg, your name came up earlier today. Are you able to test armel images if we port it?
[23:56] <micahg> charlie-tca: so, I'll install xubuntu on my smarkbook after I recover it
[23:56] <charlie-tca> heh
[23:56] <micahg> yes, assuming I get some help with persia on loading from an SD card
[23:57] <charlie-tca> cody-somerville is interested in getting armel, possibly for alpha2
[23:57] <micahg> charlie-tca: I installed a linaro kernel that was not meant for it and now it won't boot
[23:57] <charlie-tca> Oh, goody
[23:57] <micahg> charlie-tca: I'd like to see what shape the desktop on armel is in first before we commit to any milestone
[23:57]  * micahg would be happy if it's working by 12.04
[23:57] <charlie-tca> I am about 6 hours behind on the earlier discussion now. I don't know what happened
[23:57] <micahg> charlie-tca: not much