[01:39] good day all [10:56] wow, 3 days with like one comment...nto exactly inspring [10:56] insiring [10:56] ahhhh [10:56] inspiring [10:58] kwwii: hmm? [11:10] thorwil: just read the log, not too much happening in the last couple of days [11:10] thorwil: the meeting is today, right? do you know exactly when? I seem to remember 4 but maybe that was UTC :-) [11:11] kwwii: today, 16:00 UTC [11:11] thorwil: cool, thanks [11:12] lunchtime! bbl [15:59] Hello Martin ;) [15:59] hi all [16:08] Doctormo - are you ready to begin? [16:12] * kwwii has 20min before I have to leave (cooking dinner, etc.) [16:12] hi! [16:13] Ok - I don't know about Doctormo but we can begin. [16:13] coolo [16:13] One of the items on the agenda is leadership. I don't know what the concerns are? [16:14] well, there is my position ;-) [16:14] I no longer work for canonical, so if they want to appoint someone to lead from their side and everyone accepts that is fine by me [16:14] j_baer: differences of opinion between you and me, mostly. looks better now than it did when the meeting was planned [16:14] kwwii: Are you comfortable with how the team is running to today? [16:15] If not what would you change? [16:15] l [16:15] j_baer: well, I wish it would be more productive :-) [16:15] kwwii: I share this wish as well. [16:16] j_baer: important to me is that everyone knows that if I do not work for canonical then I will not be accepting expectations from canonical [16:16] hi everyone! [16:16] o/ [16:16] hi ivanka [16:16] Hi kwwii [16:16] my idea is that the artwork team should first be productive in and of itself before taking on tasks which need leadership as such [16:16] kwwii: how do you see your future role and what do you plan regarding involvement? [16:17] kwwii: Do you work for Canonical? [16:17] j_baer: no, I do not [16:17] j_baer: he used to [16:17] ended between the last 2 uds [16:17] All: Then can leadership be shared? [16:18] thorwil: I see my role as helping coordinate and helping people with specific questions, mentoring, etc...as for my personal involvement, I am in the process of starting a new icon theme [16:18] Perhaps we could talk about the role of the leader? [16:18] ivanka: sure, how do you picture that? [16:18] At UDS we discussed that the artwork team should be running in such a way that the whole community can make better use of it [16:19] j_baer: yes, but that depends on in how far those who share responsibility tend to agree [16:19] There was also a request for 'work items' [16:19] kwwii: ^ [16:19] j_baer: i dont see the need for a 'shared leadership' just because kwwii no longer works for Canonical [16:20] And, it seems to me that specific things identified by Canonical should be triaged and picked up in the same way as a request from a loco team, for example [16:20] For example, thorwil does a brilliant job of representing the defined visual identity pieces in lots of places [16:20] ty :) [16:20] boo! [16:20] thorwil: np :-) [16:20] ;p [16:21] vish is also brilliant :-) [16:21] until now, taking wishes (or orders) from canonical has only worked so well [16:21] * vish waits for thorwil to boo.. ;) [16:21] kwwii: IMO the Design Team and the Artwork Team needs to work more closely [16:21] * thorwil lets vish wait. hard. [16:21] and if canonical inteds to lead in this way, then they should just pick a leader - it's not really a community project as such then [16:21] kwwii: yeah, we talked about that [16:22] kwwii: I meant that in response the the (orders) bit [16:22] all: There is risk to a community team - things may not happen as desire [16:22] kwwii, everyone, I think this has to remain a community team [16:23] we talked about making more of a presence for it so that we could attract more people [16:23] and 'service' more projects (like apps) or marketing materials for loco teams and things like that [16:23] ivanka: Agreed, but there is no reason the two can not work together [16:23] they one need only to pick a canonical team member to be the access point [16:23] and either a leader from the community or a council [16:24] as for me, I do not have to stay in a leadership position, I won't force that on anyone :p [16:24] j_baer: IMO, firstly, quality should precede demand for equality … [16:24] +1 [16:24] we have not shown quality, yet [16:24] thorwil: which bit are you +1? [16:24] vish: Then we need to lead folk to that point [16:25] " quality should precede demand for equality …" [16:25] thorwil: thanks :-) [16:25] I think we need a lot of mentoring to get people up to speed experience and skills wise [16:25] kwwii: agreed [16:26] kwwi: Agreed, that is the strength of a community team [16:26] I think it would be great if there was a leader who could match requests to people, amongst other things [16:26] when we started oxygen we were only two artists, but by finding community members interested in learning we expanded our group (by teaching them) [16:26] ivanka: Matching skill sets is difficult as the membership is changing [16:26] that has been my thinking, too. there are not enough experienced/trained people, so a real solution has to do something about that [16:26] ivanka: exactly, as well as inspiring the team and pointing them to new ideas and projects, etc [16:26] kwwii: so do you think that limiting scope would help grow? [16:27] ivanka: Limiting scope is limited by what folks are willing to do [16:28] there have been a couple of requests from community members (like forums and screenshots) that I have forwarded to the list [16:28] ivanka: how has that worked out? [16:28] I thought the Ubuntu forums request went well [16:28] Forums got good help, but for the screenshots piece it needs to be picked up by someone who understands how to connect the dots across the community [16:28] it is not just a 'design' piece [16:29] Or it is in the broader context of gathering requirements and making sure all the right people are in the loop [16:29] ivanka: That is a challenge [16:29] I would imagine that if someone in a loco team wanted a specific thing made, a banner or such, the current artwork list could handle it very well [16:29] well, in the end if nobody is interesting in a certain project there is no way to change that [16:30] so for me, I would say we limit ourselves to the projects which people are willing to work on :-) [16:30] kwwii: indeed :-) [16:30] kwwii: Projects like screen shots needs help from the design team [16:30] i just saw a lack if info what the screenshots site is or isn't. i think that info needs to come from outside the team and none of us should play detective [16:31] thorwil: agreed [16:31] thorwil: +1 [16:31] thorwil: that is why I stopped it, sent of a bunch of emails and am trying to be sherlock [16:31] right [16:31] again, anything that comes from the design team needs to be led by the design team [16:31] * vish mentioned that screenshots is actually a debian site on the bug ivanka filed on day 1, wonder if ivanka reads bug mail ;p [16:31] so, maybe the leader could say "not enough info, come back later" [16:31] ivanka: yeah, and why it's our only spec in the "frozen" category [16:32] ivanka: +1 [16:32] vish: I called that out in the original post [16:32] ah.. ok :) [16:32] From me, in my Canonical position, I want to be in open dialogue about stuff [16:33] I won't expect anyone to pick up anything they don't want to [16:33] ivanka: My vision is the Design Team and the Artwork team would share info openly [16:33] And, I will happily respond to 'not enough information, go away' [16:34] I have been encouraging people like Yaili and Richard to get involved in the conversations on the list [16:34] ivanka: For example - you know what we are doing but do we know what the Design Team is doing? [16:34] But, in my Canonical role, I am only one source of potential projects [16:34] j_baer: I dont think you can reasonably expect that info to be given [16:34] :) [16:34] unless ivanka says otherwise, naturally [16:35] kwwii: help me understand [16:35] j_baer: I get as much as possible put on the design blog and you can find it in bugs [16:35] j_baer: I have Iain write the 'this week in design' posts [16:35] ivanka: what is your #1 project? [16:35] j_baer: I mean that other than the info already in the public space there will be no news [16:36] j_baer: we cannot expect them to explain everything they do, they'd spend more time explaining than doing [16:36] thanks kwwii [16:36] j_baer: I have been trying to increase communications and openess [16:36] j_baer: there are business interests and there is just not the bandwidth to communicate what a team of full-time workers does [16:36] np [16:36] thorwil: exactly [16:36] j_baer: some of my stuff is really boring like getting designs for job spec documents in canonical [16:37] Right thorwil [16:37] ivanka: I understand but a very strong team building emotion is inclusion - folks want to feel included in Ubuntu :) [16:37] For example: Wallpaper [16:38] IMO we will see improvement if folks feel this way [16:38] Look at how well the photo submissions is doing [16:39] j_baer: wallpaper is no longer a community task.. [16:39] afaik.. :) [16:39] j_baer, everyone: jfyi, every time to the team has attempted a larger project on itself and tried to take direction from canonical it has failed, mainly due to lack of explanation about decisions as well as lack of invovlement in the decision making process. we need to stick to the things we are good at, like the photo contest and other smaller things until we have the resources and structure to accomplish larger tasks [16:39] whew, that was long [16:40] kwwii: :-) [16:40] and good [16:40] anyway...I have to head out now...time for supper! (and weekend) [16:40] kwwii: cya and thanks [16:40] bye kwwii [16:40] thorwil: np, I'll check in later and read the log [16:40] kwwii: bye.. and when you have time, pls update the topic ;) [16:40] have fun everyone [16:41] vish: lol, will do [16:41] FONTs are available ;p [16:41] ivanka: Is it possible to have Design Team members and Artwork Team members work together? [16:41] j_baer: what does that look like to you? [16:41] where is doctormo today? [16:42] ivanka: Have the design team lead but accept submissions from the community [16:42] Don't know? [16:42] doctormo: this is your damn meeting!!! hmpf [16:42] vish: It's ok :) [16:42] j_baer: didn't go to well for the GDM for ... which release was that again? [16:42] vish: change it yourself :P [16:42] kwwii: thanks.. :) [16:42] thorwil: karmic [16:43] thorwil: Agreed as I was apart that [16:43] Until now the team has not shown any proven track record of delivering, so that the Canonical team can bank on us.. and it might be a bit over-reaching to expect them to depend on us.. [16:43] vish: How can we change that? [16:43] vish, I might not have put it that strongly, but there is a bit of that [16:43] j_baer: nothing like this happens over night [16:44] I will continue to put things out there [16:44] and we will see what works and what doesn't [16:44] for example [16:44] the flickr 'new artwork icon' has some really great submissions [16:44] which makes me think that the artwork team could make loads more pictograms and stuff [16:45] ivanka: Thank you - I agree. [16:45] j_baer: delivering stunning and well thought-out wallpapers for edubuntu and xubuntu should be a good start [16:45] j_baer: not sure, but one way is to deliver on what ivanka puts on the table.. or more people doing things out of our own interest like how thorwil updates logos, and stuff.. [16:45] but, on a different note, I don't know if a new logo is as important for the artwork team as defining what the artwork team does [16:45] thorwil: +1 [16:45] ivanka: +1 Just a tool to get folks involved [16:46] * thorwil still wants artwork -> design [16:46] thorwil: to change names? [16:46] ivanka: to change name along with mindset [16:46] kwwii: you still here? [16:46] and to dissolve the split from ayatana, perhaps [16:46] I don't know how the politics around that work, I don't know how the community works with a big change like that [16:46] thorwil: That would be a big change [16:47] I was thinking on the train this morning that maybe it should be Artwork and Design [16:47] ivanka: i had filed a rt request for an art.ubuntu.com site, and they have agreed to assign it, so its ready.. i'v told them to wait for your survey, and whether it should be an art.u.c or a design.u.c [16:47] ivanka: IMO I would focus on team improvement leading to a name change [16:47] vish: cool [16:48] j_baer: again, what does that look like? [16:48] ivanka: Sorry lost my train of thought. [16:49] If the Design Team owned the project they could define the spec with suggestions from the team and then open the effort up for submissions. [16:49] If the submissions were inadequate for forward with internally developed designs [16:50] Folks would feel they had a chance. :) [16:50] what if folks thinking they deserve a chance is part of the problem? [16:51] thorwil: Having a chance is better than no chance. [16:51] As I have already mentioned, I will continue to put out pieces of work [16:51] but I am not the only 'customer' [16:52] This is not *my8 community I am a participant in it [16:52] aw :( [16:52] ivanka: +1 and my concern has always been too much work [16:52] we left out ivanka :s [16:52] vish why :( [16:52] j/k ;) [16:52] vish :-) [16:53] OK - so give that it is almost 5 on Friday and I have another meeting to go to in 7 minutes [16:53] what are the conclusions to this? [16:53] we continue like we started with? [16:53] [AGREED] dont depend on doctormo to make it to meetings ! ;) [16:54] ivanka: Do you agree to be the Design Team point of contact? [16:54] any opinions on declaring the LibreOffice spec closed? [16:54] j_baer: yes, I agree to be the design team point of contact [16:54] ivanka: Thank you [16:54] j_baer: if you will agree to take some deep breaths before you fill my inbox ;) [16:55] +1 [16:55] ivanka: yes :) [16:55] j_baer: thank you [16:55] thorwil: what about the spec? [16:55] j_baer: i think we should pace things a bit more, rather than having more tasks at the same time.. [16:56] ivanka: it has no content and is out of the scope of the artwork team as i see it [16:56] vish: I am satisfied with our current list realizing other things may show up [16:56] thorwil: :-) [16:57] as in: the specification has to happen inside the LibO project [16:57] ivanka & vish: Do you need help with paper cuts? [16:57] j_baer: sure.. [16:57] thorwil: I agree [16:58] vish: IMO we need help with this as they may come flying in from all directions [16:58] thorwil: from what I can tell, invitations can come in but then if people inside the list want to pick it up then they do it under their own steam [16:58] exactly [16:58] j_baer: paper cuts has been running and is not an artwork specific project [16:58] j_baer: there may be a few that are specifically art work required [16:59] ivanka: Ok [16:59] vish, what do you think? [16:59] ivanka: i cleaned those artwork specific things during the past three cycles :D [16:59] and vish recently filled an artwork need for the papercuts team in a smooth way. like a ninja! [16:59] thorwil: heh [16:59] thorwil: I am concern about the message we may be sending if we close the LibreOffice task [17:00] things == bugs [17:00] j_baer: few people will notice [17:01] thorwil: But what if they do? [17:01] j_baer: though, you can add a section for listing projects where we "endorse" getting involved to the spec list [17:01] j_baer: what message do you think they would take out of it being closed? [17:01] thorwil: that is a nice idea - like a cross promotion thing? [17:02] "people on this team also like doing this sort of stuff" [17:02] thorwil: +1 I agree the spec should be changed [17:02] j_baer: it's like a fly shifting a little weight arounds its legs [17:02] vish: We need to support upstream as best as we can [17:02] thorwil: +1 [17:02] thorwil, j_baer, vish - I have to go [17:03] ivanka: Thank you [17:03] ivanka: thx, later.. :) [17:03] bye guys, have a lovely weekend! [17:03] ivanka: you too, thanks [17:03] Ok in the time remaining - anything else? [17:03] j_baer: i dont see it as dismissing upstream, but do we have the man-power? [17:04] to take on the task.. [17:04] or woman-power.. :D [17:04] vish: Agree - and things may not happen as it is not a priority for us. [17:04] yea.. [17:05] vish: How do you see your role on the team? [17:05] a member of the team.. [17:05] vish: Do you feel comfortable in creating submissions? [17:05] vish is important for making me fell less lonely in this channel, among other things :) [17:06] i was just wondering what thorwil would have done, if i werent here :D [17:07] vish: :) Ok - do you feel comfortable creating submissions [17:07] j_baer: when i find something interesting, i'll gladly do it.. :) [17:07] vish: I see you as a real talent and your submissions would be great. :) [17:08] j_baer: thx.. i'm just lucky at times :D [17:08] thorwil: thanks for helping with wiki - I know it is distasteful [17:09] I really hope the fixes can be implemented soon as it is driving me crazy [17:09] j_baer: np. i'm glad you have been doing most of that work [17:10] that also makes me think twice before changing something [17:10] thorwil: can you work your magic with the Edubuntu spec? [17:10] IMO the Xubuntu spec look great [17:11] j_baer: i could, but i havn't seen enough willingness and enthusiasm from the edubuntu side [17:11] thorwil: I'll see if I can help with that :) [17:12] j_baer: basically i would just repeat most of what i said in the xubuntu case [17:12] thorwil: +1 [17:12] Ok everyone - I've got to go as well, have a good weekend! [17:12] in both cases, i would like to have the panels and a window on a transparent ground, so it can be overlayed on wallpaper proposals [17:13] though in both cases creating the wallpaper first, to then tweak theme colors would be a valid approach, too [17:13] j_baer: same to you, thanks [17:15] vish: rather smooth sailing, eh? :) [17:15] thorwil: yea.. :) [17:16] i'm gonna write a summary for the list [17:16] cool! [17:17] thorwil: btw, how much space would we need for an art.u.c or a design.u.c ? [17:17] the sys admins asked that, since we might need to host stuff.. and they need to allot space on the server.. [17:18] woutervddn: noticed you around, but staying quite. how was the luring experience? ;) [17:18] or doctormo too.. when he returns..^ [17:18] vish: how would i know? doctormo might be able to make a reasonable estimate [17:19] vish: i still dream of a neutral design site. unfortunately, my time went *poof* working on other things [17:19] it would all depend on how large of uploads are allowed and how often the queue is removed [17:19] :-) [17:19] kwwii: yea, any guesstimate? [17:20] it would be easy to allow people to upload pics which are large and fill up the server [17:20] vish: not off the top of my head [17:20] cool! well decide later :) [17:20] we'll [17:20] queue removed? there should be long time archival (though crap could be kicked out) [17:20] thorwil: right, mainly I meant the upload queue of pics which are no longer displayed, etc [17:21] * thorwil looks at his 60MB wallpaper source files [17:21] thorwil: ie, I could upload the same pic again and again with different names, versions, etc [17:52] thorwil: I seem to have gotten myself sick and missed todays meeting :-( [17:52] Did it happen? [17:53] doctormo: yes. went well [17:54] doctormo: you have the complete backlog, right? i'm working on a summary [17:54] thorwil: No, but it's logged somewhere right? [17:55] doctormo: get well soon! [17:56] of course: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/11/26/%23ubuntu-artwork.html [17:57] thanks thorwil, I think Ill head back to bed now to read the log on my phone. [18:08] thorwil: So we didn't get to the meeting agenda other than the first item which wasn't decided. [18:09] vish: Sorry I wasn't there. [18:18] thorwil: I'm leaning towards another meeting, although If I could just get the 4 players in the same room at the same time, that would help. [18:44] thorwil, only was here for a sec. I went to give blood... [18:45] doctormo: unlikely to get a decision regarding leadership. chance to talk about grievances was there [18:46] thorwil: Right, thorwil, j_baer, ivanka and kwwii are the new nucleaus. Hurra, [18:47] You need to bring about consensus between all four members about what tools to use and processes to use for this cycle. [18:47] If it's all good, then no work needs doing. [18:48] it's not all good, but might be good enough for now [18:48] thorwil: Make sure j_baer is aware of his new status and the requirement for absolute consesnsus in the core oft he project. [18:53] doctormo: well, ivanka is our contact person and as such a bit of a special case. kwwii i assume will be more like a coach on the sidelines [18:54] doctormo: short of asking to be made official leader myself, i really didn't know how to clear things up. that's not something i want to do [19:02] thorwil...I would vote for you as leader :-) [19:02] kwwii: heh, thanks! :) [19:04] aside of retaining the ability to drop out for a while when I have to, i should either remain or become convincing with my words and actions on every point [19:06] also, vish makes snide remarks when he thinks that i think i could just assume that position ;) [19:07] I just read the backlog and I must say that there should be more 'learning experience' [19:11] woutervddn: yes [19:12] it seems the thought of getting into coding on some free software project to learn and gain experience is much more common [19:13] than doing likewise with artwork/design, where a mentality of "helping out" seems more prevalent [19:14] true, but wouldn't it be possible to have subtile guidings.. [19:15] woutervddn: perhaps. i have been thinking along those lines, but the idea remained all vague, so far [19:17] I'm quiet new to the artwork list, but reading that backlog it's like there isn't much coherence in the team.. [19:17] am I interpreting this right? [19:18] woutervddn: you could say that. though irc logs don't tend to be a beacon of clarity :) [19:19] woutervddn: so, are you looking for a learning experience? [19:19] true.. [19:19] and yes.. [19:20] As far as I know the current projects it seems like logo design is really the biggest thing that the team is doing.. [19:20] and altough I make artwork for a long time now, but only recently I'm that much into linux that I started using gimp.. [19:20] I would argue that creative work is not as easy to learn for all people as coding is [19:20] woutervddn, you may also like to get familiar with inkscape as well [19:20] and it's kind of a pain to "reteach" how stuff works.. [19:21] a bad artist is a bad artist and everyone can tell a bad one from a distance, whereas a bad coder, if the code somehow works won't be noticed by any user, rather only coders who are better [19:21] woutervddn: it's been a while since i used photoshopt. if you have specific question regarding gimp (or inkscape) i might be able to help [19:21] kwwii: coding isn't simple for all people.. I have VBA now in class, many of my classmates don't understand the logics behind coding.. [19:22] woutervddn: right, but a non-developer would not know the difference as long as the code works [19:22] well, I think that I aswell as others just need to feel te boost not to give up on trying.. [19:22] *everyone* has an opinion on artwork [19:23] rebooting and doing stuff in windows is far easier then figuring everything out for the first time (again..) [19:23] woutervddn, that will fade with time [19:23] woutervddn, I was a die hard photoshop and painter user [19:24] kwwii: indeed.. Artwork is a far more complex matter.. [19:24] the thing to do is to somehow figure out how new people could most help the creative effort with their skills *now* while deciding a direction to mentor them to take most benefit from their inherint talent [19:24] mmm [19:25] woutervddn: take, for example, the fact that the art list has around 200 members at any given time and yet only a handfull of real contributors [19:25] true that.. [19:25] well, artwork has 1 big advantage and disadvantage. [19:25] it would be interested to see the statistics on one of the dev lists [19:25] s/interested/interesting [19:25] i wonder if people would accept training tasks [19:25] the fact you can put out "contests" and choose the best.. [19:26] thorwil: yes, they would if they had someone who held their hand and helped them [19:26] thorwil: that is my experience at least [19:26] thorwil: my biggest problem when I worked for canonical was that I couldn't really help anyone directly on a project or they would think it was canonical approved and would be in ubuntu [19:26] with coding this is harder (impossible) but it makes it possible to help other programmers as with artwork you just make a new artwork and submit it under your own name.. [19:27] or they would at least secretly wish it :p [19:28] I think there is still a misunderstanding about working on stuff to be included in ubuntu...without careful attention it can go very wrong very fast [19:29] maybe an explanation of how work is chosen to be included would be helpful so there are no misunderstandings? [19:29] but hey, now I sound like someone else :p [19:29] kwwii: do you miss him, too? [19:30] is this troy you are talking about?? :) [19:30] nah, Cory [19:30] thorwil: hehe, I bet we would agree much more often now that it is not my job to play puppet [19:31] thorwil: lol, no...coz is right [19:31] oh, dang [19:32] but the importance of making clear that we don't get to work on the official stuff just so was always Cory's line [19:32] thorwil: lol, that shows how long you have been around :p [19:33] kwwii: still green compared to you ;) [19:33] actually, I would love to have a chat with troy :-) [19:33] thorwil, I think that should be something everyone should know.. [19:34] kwwii, I havent spoken with him for some time now [19:34] woutervddn: it has been on the Artwork wiki page since long and has been brought up on planet ubuntu, too [19:35] coz_: it must be film-making season :-) [19:35] :) [19:35] doctormo: np.. get well soon :) [19:36] thorwil: who me? snide ;) nah.. i was just responding to baer's comment about need for a shared leadership just because someone does not work in Canonical.. if you want to lead.. sure be the leader.. :) [19:36] woutervddn: i used to point it out in answers to people introducing themselves on the list. the outcome was that none of them ever said much afterwards ... and i was gently asked to tone down the negativity ;) [19:36] the person who leads should be the one with the skills, experience and time to do it [19:36] all of those things count, not just one [19:37] yup.. [19:37] erm, skills include artwork and people skills [19:37] it's the time aspect that worries me the most [19:37] and people skills in this sense are kinda funky compared to what you might imagine [19:37] my people skills are awesome. it's just that many people never notice or understand that!!! [19:38] from my past, I can say that canonical has an inherint interest in the artwork team being functional and contribute content [19:38] but it has been shown again and again that the communication can go very wrong [19:39] so the person who leads has to be willing to take on all of that, and be able to do the job well [19:39] (in the other areas I mentioned) [19:39] thorwil has a very good relationship with canonical and the design team [19:40] but anyway [19:41] who wants to hear about my plans for a new icon set? :P [19:43] kwwii: i edited that out of the summary, to avoid rumors. now be careful, or omgubuntu will reports about plans of a rebel leader to replace the ubuntu icon theme with a new one, of a never seen before style! [19:43] thorwil: the only issue i had with baer's flow to the question was: > "so you dont work for canonical" -> "ok , lets have a shared leader" which seemed a silly reason.. [19:43] kwwii, i would definitly like to hear that :) [19:44]