[09:06] <ssj6akshat> hi mpt
[09:06] <mpt> hello ssj6akshat
[09:08]  * ssj6akshat wants to write an article on why rolling release is not suitable for Ubuntu
[09:18] <mpt> aha
[09:18] <mpt> ssj6akshat, how close are you to a bookshop?
[09:19] <ssj6akshat> mpt, 8 kilometres away
[09:19] <mpt> heh
[09:20] <mpt> Last time I was in a bookshop, a couple of weeks ago
[09:20] <mpt> I looked to see what books they had about Ubuntu
[09:21] <mpt> There were about half a dozen different titles
[09:21] <mpt> None of them covered 10.10 yet
[09:21] <mpt> About half of them covered 10.04
[09:21] <ssj6akshat> I bet you could find any book about Computers in an Indian village :(
[09:22] <mpt> though in one of the ones that did cover 10.04, all its screenshots had (Minimize)(Maximize)(Close) on the left, so it was obviously based on the beta
[09:22] <mpt> the rest covered 9.10 an earlier
[09:24] <mpt> It's a struggle for book authors and publishers to keep up with a six-month release cycle. Whereas the books they published about Windows XP five years ago are still sellable.
[09:27] <mpt> On Amazon I see zero books about Linux Mint. There are three about Gentoo, and one of them is fake (a bunch of Wikipedia articles stapled together).
[09:28] <mpt> So, that's one reason.
[09:28] <mpt> Not the most important reason, though.
[09:28] <ssj6akshat> mpt, noted
[09:30] <ssj6akshat> 1st reason- Rolling release makes life harder for book writers
[09:33] <mpt> Another reason is https://shipit.ubuntu.com/
[09:34] <ssj6akshat> 2nd reason- Can't ship outdated CDs
[09:34] <mpt> Every six months, a factory presses thousands of CDs for us
[09:34] <mpt> (I don't know the exact number, and if I did know, I couldn't say)
[09:34] <mpt> We send them by ShipIt, and distribute them at conferences and trade shows and so on
[09:34] <mpt> send them to LoCo teams
[09:37] <mpt> We could still do that with a rolling release, but it would be confusing, because we'd be promoting something that wasn't actually the latest version.
[09:38] <mpt> Another reason is http://www.ubuntu.com/support/training
[09:38] <mpt> Training courses need to be prepared, and revised for each new version of Ubuntu
[09:39] <mpt> and the trainers themselves need to be trained
[09:40] <mpt> It's easier for all those steps to happen once or twice a year, than for constant dribs and drabs from particular updates that change features or change the interface
[09:42] <mpt> It's also easier to tell whether you need to take the training again (or get your employees to take the training again) if there are clear version numbers to compare.
[09:44] <mpt> Another reason is http://www.ubuntu.com/support/services
[09:45] <mpt> It's much easier for Canonical, and other companies that provide tech support for Ubuntu, to do that if they're familiar with the features of each Ubuntu version.
[09:47] <mpt> E.g. knowing that in 10.10, X and Y and Z switched to Upstart jobs, instead of having to know that X switched on some date, Y switched on some other date, Z switched on some other date, and sorry, when did you last update your system?
[09:47] <ssj6akshat> lol
[09:48] <mpt> I could be wrong, but I don't think operating systems that have rolling releases have much in the way of commercial tech support.
[09:49] <mpt> But here's the two biggest reasons
[09:50] <mpt> The second biggest reason is commercial application developers. They need to be able to say "Yes, this program does work on 10.04 LTS, and if it doesn't we'll refund you." Rather than having to constantly keep track of changes in the system that break the application.
[09:51] <ssj6akshat> true
[09:51] <mpt> Rolling releases tend to assume, I think, that every application is in the OS's own repositories, so they can fix breakage that way. But that model can't scale. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT5fUcMUfYg>
[09:52] <mpt> And the biggest reason is OEMs.
[09:52] <mpt> and ODMs.
[09:53] <mpt> Most of the computers you can buy with Ubuntu preinstalled right now have either 10.04, or 9.10.
[09:55] <mpt> It takes time for manufacturers to test the OS with their hardware, or to pay us to do that <http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/>
[09:56] <mpt> It's difficult for them to keep up with a release every six months
[09:56] <mpt> If there was a release every day or so, I don't know what they'd do, but it wouldn't be pretty.
[09:57] <mpt> Now, there are two other things to mention
[09:57] <mpt> One is that daily builds are useful for testing. sabdfl has wanted these for a long time. <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/GrumpyGroundhog>
[10:00] <mpt> The other is that the main reason people want a "rolling release" in the first place is not so that they can get updates for udev or plymouth or gvfs, but so that they can get updates for Firefox and Banshee and so on.
[10:00] <mpt> But there are other ways to do that. (Which is what I was getting at with my "bifurcation fallacy" comment.)
[10:00] <mpt> That's also covered in Evan's talk in that YouTube link above.
[10:02] <mpt> For all those reasons, the more popular an operating system is, the less frequent its releases are.
[10:03] <mpt> That's a general pattern, of course, not a perfect rule.
[10:06] <mpt> http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm has useful statistics for that, because it shows how popular individual Linux-based OSes are.
[10:22] <mpt> ssj6akshat, is that enough to get you started? :-)
[10:24] <ssj6akshat> mpt, yes
[11:43] <ssj6akshat> mpt, lol @ Just another wordpress site
[12:53] <m4n1sh> join #desktocouch
[12:53] <m4n1sh> sorry :P
[12:54] <ssj6akshat> m4n1sh, typo
[12:54] <m4n1sh> yeah
[13:08] <sojourner__> I unsubscribed from the ayatana project a couple of weeks ago but the bug mail keeps comming how do I stop it ?
[13:17] <mpt> sojourner__, <https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+subscriptions> might list something that you can unsubscribe from or a team you need to leave
[13:33] <coz_> good day al
[13:38] <sojourner__> thanks MPT but that just shows bugs that I am subscribed to the bugs from ayatana bugmail show me as " also notified" so I can't unsubscribe from them .
[13:39] <mpt> sojourner__, can you give an example?
[13:43] <sojourner__> have a look at  https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-datetime/+bug/579134  and you will see that I am "also notified" but not subscribed .
[13:44] <sojourner__> the email I recieve says "You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to The
[13:44] <sojourner__> Ayatana Project." but I am no longer subscribed .
[14:55] <mpt> sojourner__, that's a mystery to me. #launchpad may be a better place to ask your question.
[15:09] <sojourner__> thanks MPT , I already tried that and got nowhere , they just answered that if I wasn't subscribed to the team I wouldn't get the mail , the problem seems to be that the bugmail is different from the team mail and dosen't show on the launchpad mailing lists page .
[15:24] <ssj6akshat> can anybody help us?
[15:24] <ssj6akshat> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AyatanaDmediaLovefest
[15:46] <mpt> sojourner__, is the first checkbox checked for you on <https://launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+subscribe>? If so, uncheck it and choose "Save these changes".
[15:47] <mpt> sojourner__, ah, no, cancel that
[15:48] <mpt> sojourner__, I think I've worked it out. You need to uncheck the first checkbox on <https://launchpad.net/ayatana/+subscribe> and choose "Save these changes".
[15:52] <mpt> ssj6akshat, that's a pretty neat wiki page (and bug report)
[15:53] <ssj6akshat> mpt, Jason's wife Tara is a profession in that field
[15:54] <ssj6akshat> He has been watching her workflow for almost 2 years
[15:54] <pavolzetor> hi, is there windicator lib?
[15:55] <ssj6akshat> pavolzetor, work on them hasn't been started
[15:55] <pavolzetor> and is there any schedule?
[15:56] <pavolzetor> I am making decision, if join ubuntu or android development
[15:56] <pavolzetor> but ubuntu looks easier for me (I love C)
[15:56] <ssj6akshat> pavolzetor, mark said that windicators were a low priority
[15:56] <pavolzetor> I don't think that, it should be high
[15:56] <mpt> ssj6akshat, I don't have time to get involved with that in detail, but one quick suggestion I do have is that most of those notification bubbles aren't really appropriate
[15:57] <pavolzetor> we are getting appmenu to panel, so we need something easy access to configure app
[15:57] <mpt> ssj6akshat, a single import dialog could better communicate show the list of cards you've imported photos from so far in this batch, which of your card readers is idle (and ready to take another card), etc
[15:58] <pavolzetor> I would like write RSS reader and I have some design in my mind, but in nattym there is appmenu in panel, so I need windicators to store there some option, like settings
[15:59] <pavolzetor> and another question, when will vala bindings work for desktopcouch?
[15:59] <mpt> pavolzetor, what kind of settings? The standard place to present those is an "Edit" > "Settings" menu item
[15:59] <pavolzetor> yes, but I wanna make app without Edit, File, Help
[16:00] <pavolzetor> it will have it, but you don't need going there for normal purposes
[16:00] <ssj6akshat> pavolzetor, so, you would be making something like google chrome
[16:00] <ssj6akshat> ?
[16:00] <mpt> pavolzetor, there's a #desktopcouch channel for questions about that
[16:00] <ssj6akshat> or firefox with it's menu button?
[16:00] <pavolzetor> thnaks
[16:01] <pavolzetor> yes
[16:01] <mpt> That reminds me, I need to nag the Chromium developers to add some native menus :-)
[16:01] <pavolzetor> but not same
[16:01] <pavolzetor> there can be in right side of title bar just one button
[16:01] <pavolzetor> like Close, but on the other side
[16:01] <pavolzetor> for settings
[16:01] <pavolzetor> in every program
[16:01] <pavolzetor> I think, uses will love it
[16:02] <pavolzetor> users
[16:03] <jderose> hi mpt :)
[16:04] <jderose> mpt: so ssj6akshat said you had some critiques of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AyatanaDmediaLovefest
[16:04] <mpt> jderose, yeah, I don't have time to get involved in detail, but I read the wiki page and the bug report and the Google Doc
[16:05] <mpt> It seems to me that pretty close to the ideal interaction would be:
[16:05] <mpt> 1. You insert the first card
[16:05] <jderose> mpt: np.... i believe the concern you mentioned will be addressed by the application indicator (not yet completed)
[16:05] <mpt> 2. You go into some "quick batch import" mode, separate from the normal import-one-card-into-Shotwell process
[16:06] <mpt> 3. The only thing you have to do from then on is to swap cards, once the interface tells you that a particular card reader is finished.
[16:07] <jderose> very hard to identify card readers, though, unless you know you have special hardware where card slots are build in and clearly labeled
[16:08] <mpt> I think a single window could do those things better than a series of notification bubbles and a menu could.
[16:08] <jderose> mpt: and a big point is to not sit waiting for free card readers, you have other stuff to be doing... it's not worth bothering the user till they are going to swap all the cards
[16:08] <mpt> Depends on speed vs. other things you're doing, I guess
[16:09] <mpt> For example, a window could easily show a list of the cards you've imported so far, how many photos were on each, and how many were duplicates. Bubbles and a menu, not so much.
[16:10] <jderose> that information will be available, but i wanted a workflow that assumed you might not be doing anything with the computer, you might just be dumping off cards in between scenes
[16:11] <jderose> but i've got more thinking to do... obviously the design isn't done yet.  thank you so much for looking at it! :)
[16:12] <mpt> yw
[16:28] <sojourner__> @ MPT thanks , I was away from the computer for awhile , your link seems to have worked thanks again .
[16:50] <mpt> It's the famous DanRabbit
[16:50] <mpt> DanRabbit, at UDS we talked about getting the artwork team more involved in tasks
[16:51] <DanRabbit> mpt: good morning :) It's the infamous MPT ;)
[16:51] <mpt> If I have something large-ish that I'd like done, should I just post to the mailing list?
[16:51] <DanRabbit> mpt: TBH I'm not sure who you would hit. For example: I'm not subscribed to that mailing list haha
[16:52] <DanRabbit> mpt: but if there is anything I can personally do for you, feel free to shoot :D
[16:52] <mpt> Just out of curiosity: Why aren't you? (I'm not, but that's because I'm not an artist)
[16:53] <DanRabbit> mpt: I get too much mail. I'm thinking of unsubscribing to papercuts at this point...
[16:53] <mpt> I wish I could do that, but Canonical UX is the owner :-)
[17:02] <DanRabbit> mpt: well good luck :) I don't think the mailing list would be a bad place to put your request in any case ;)
[20:44] <nperry> How do I add lauchers to unity-compiz?
[20:44] <spikeb> i don't think you can yet
[20:45] <nperry> ALT+F2 it is then
[20:46] <nperry> First time running it
[20:55] <nperry> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10111328&postcount=21