[00:07] <hajour> o and thanks for the answer dutchie 
[12:03] <hajour> hai all
[20:22] <charlie-tca> Pendulum, if you don't mind, you appear to be stuck with me for a while
[20:22] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: I want you around.
[20:23] <charlie-tca> Great! got to much to try and get done to go away
[20:23] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: you're important for this project and that e-mail was not about you in particular. It was that the way things were happening weren't working and finding a better way
[20:24] <Pendulum> and obviously something happened since alejandra has now e-mailed with a mock up for trying to fix the website design
[20:24] <charlie-tca> Yeah, I read it again. I am really frustrated with the websites. It really gets to me when my eyes start fading again.
[20:25] <charlie-tca> Maybe did a teeny bit of good, too.
[20:25] <AlanBell> totally understandable
[20:25] <Pendulum> I understand. I'm hoping that there's now a compromise that will work
[20:25] <AlanBell> and I think we are moving to a better working relationship with the design team and web team
[20:25] <AlanBell> partly as a result of kicking up a bit of a fuss
[20:25] <Pendulum> yeah
[20:26] <charlie-tca> Just seems a little(or a lot) wrong that the website team keeps saying the design team is responsible, but they won't be told anything is wrong... 
[20:26] <AlanBell> it is, which is what happened on saturday
[20:27] <charlie-tca> heh, then it is okay
[20:27] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: one of the reasons I copied as many people as I did on that e-mail was because I wanted jono and the design team to be aware that the LD and website people were not being helpful
[20:28] <Pendulum> or were being helpful in limited ways
[20:28] <AlanBell> but now we have demanded their attention we have to concentrate on building that better working relationship
[20:28] <Pendulum> yeah
[20:28] <charlie-tca> Agreed. That's why I got to keep quiet on it
[20:28] <charlie-tca> I'm all for AlanBell or phillw to take the thing
[20:29] <Pendulum> *nods*
[20:29] <UndiFineD> well aint that an easy excuse, someone else is responsible, i thought people should think for themselves ...
[20:30] <charlie-tca> What? me letting go?
[20:30] <UndiFineD> "the website team keeps saying the design team is responsible"
[20:30] <charlie-tca> Oh, that. Yeah
[20:30] <AlanBell> UndiFineD: yes, and now we understand what they actually meant by that
[20:31] <AlanBell> I asked phillw to join the channel
[20:31] <UndiFineD> hajour will be back online later, I had to re-install the eepc, this time fullblown ubuntu, which is eassier for config
[20:32] <UndiFineD> me and phill get along well :)
[20:32] <charlie-tca> Well, I kicked the ball as hard as I dared. 
[20:32] <UndiFineD> hey phillw :)
[20:32] <charlie-tca> Hello, phillw 
[20:32] <phillw> appears as summonsed, I'm good like that :P
[20:34] <Pendulum> hi phillw :)
[20:34] <AlanBell> o/
[20:34] <charlie-tca> We were discussing the website and design team stuff
[20:34] <phillw> In response to the email, I was thinking of grabbing AlanBell tonight and asking if he wished to be 1st point of contact. We are both UK based
[20:34] <UndiFineD> oh, me and hajour did a lot of work on personas together ... might want to check it out
[20:35] <AlanBell> I am happy either way
[20:35] <AlanBell> UndiFineD: awesome!
[20:35] <phillw> hiyas UndiFineD, we'll have to stop meeting like this, people will talk :D
[20:35] <charlie-tca> phillw, as long as it is not me
[20:35] <phillw> hiyas charlie-tca and Pendulum
[20:35] <UndiFineD> shht phillw 
[20:35]  * AlanBell wonders off for food
[20:36] <phillw> UndiFineD: that'd be really good, as the accessify forum is really interested in how ubuntu is driving forwards.
[20:37] <phillw> I know I'm not that active on the mailing list, but I do follow avidly what is going on and have another convert to coding sites to AAA standards which is always good :)
[20:38] <UndiFineD> we did some work in hajour her pages, based on personal experiances: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accessibility
[20:39] <Pendulum> I really should use the forums :-/
[20:39] <UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
[20:39] <Pendulum> I just have only so many methods of communication that I can handle at once
[20:39] <UndiFineD> missing an S i see
[20:40] <Pendulum> phillw: I'm happy with either of you so the two of you can duke it out ;-) Just please copy me on related e-mails to the design team, etc. if you can?
[20:42] <phillw> Pendulum: we will, myself and AlanBell already know eachother so it's hardly going to be a fight to the death :)
[20:44]  * charlie-tca thinks that would be good. We need both people
[20:46] <Pendulum> yeah
[20:46] <UndiFineD> heh
[20:47] <phillw> charlie-tca: we already liase across another project, or two. So you'd get two for the price of one :P
[20:47] <Pendulum> phillw: btw, if you didn't know, I'm Penelope :)
[20:47] <phillw> Pendulum: I guessed :P
[20:47] <Pendulum> (I get confused between people often and have spent my day fighting on medical stuff so my brain isn't working anyway)
[20:49] <charlie-tca> sorry, Pendulum. I know that one well, too
[20:49] <phillw> I am always here to help in any way I can, I quietly (and some times loudly) champion accessibilty, it is something I very strongly believe in.
[20:49] <phillw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw#Accessibilty
[20:50] <charlie-tca> I might get a little loud, too, now and then.
[20:50] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: you'll love this, my insurance is currently approving a week of PT at a time
[20:50] <charlie-tca> you
[20:50] <charlie-tca>  you're kidding! :-(
[20:51] <Pendulum> nope
[20:51] <Pendulum> they approved 3 visits initially
[20:51] <Pendulum> so last tuesday I had to fill out another survey for them
[20:51] <Pendulum> they've approved another 2 visits
[20:51] <charlie-tca> Hard to believe. but then, mine approved two visits initially, then I had to reapply monthly
[20:51] <Pendulum> so this thursday I'll fill out another one
[20:52] <Pendulum> to make it worse, if I don't show improvement, they'll deny
[20:52] <Pendulum> even after 3 visits
[20:52] <Pendulum> (went through that with different PT over the summer)
[20:52] <charlie-tca> yup, improvement is all that matters, isn't it?
[20:52] <charlie-tca> doesn
[20:52] <Pendulum> heh
[20:52] <charlie-tca> doesn't occur to them the progress might be slow and take time to show
[20:53] <Pendulum> I love that for my genetic condition I'm supposed to magically improve in 3 visits, one of which was an eval with no treatment
[20:53] <Pendulum> so I tell them I'm improving whether I am or not
[20:54] <charlie-tca> You have to. It's the only way to keep things going, sometimes.
[20:54] <Pendulum> and working with the therapist to get stuff I can do at home or in any pool so that when insurance stops improving it's not a disaster
[20:54] <Pendulum> *approving
[20:54] <Pendulum> but I have an insurance where doctor's offices see it and cringe
[20:55] <charlie-tca> I had a total of 6 months last time my legs went. It took about 4 years to get them fully working.
[20:55] <Pendulum> from what I can tell it covers about the same as medicaid (possibly a little less) with much higher copays
[20:55] <charlie-tca> That hurts, too
[20:55] <Pendulum> yeah
[20:56] <charlie-tca> I did try doing some of the stuff without filing the insurance claims. They charge me about twice what they charge the insurance
[20:58] <Pendulum> I pay $50/visit for PT. which is admittedly a lot better than the $300/visit I'd probably be paying out of pocket
[20:58] <UndiFineD> what is PT ?
[20:59] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: physiotherapy
[20:59] <UndiFineD> oh
[20:59] <UndiFineD> :)
[21:00] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: what really gets me is that the insurance companies make deals with providers. So I'd get charge out of pocket about $300, I pay a copay of $50, and then it turns out the deal my insurance company has made means they only pay $30
[21:00] <UndiFineD> do you have your a chance your health will improve Pendulum / charlie-tca 
[21:00] <UndiFineD> ?
[21:01] <charlie-tca> I know, Pendulum. It is really frustrating. 
[21:01] <charlie-tca> And then the insurance wants to know why you used it...
[21:01] <charlie-tca> UndiFineD, not here. Mine improved as much as it will. It is slowly going downhill now
[21:01] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: not hugely. I have a rare genetic condition called Ehlers Danlos Syndrome and it's a matter of trying to manage symptoms, but it probably will get worse ;)
[21:02] <UndiFineD> that aint good, sorry to hear
[21:03] <charlie-tca> you do the best you can while you can
[21:03] <Pendulum> tbh, the only things I really care about improving are pain and fatigue levels
[21:03] <charlie-tca> Pendulum, Have you been able to try modafinal for fatigue?
[21:04] <UndiFineD> pain and fatique are the worst indeed
[21:04] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: no. because no one is doing a good job of managing my meds right now
[21:04] <charlie-tca> It is probably the best drug out there for it. It does take monthly authorizations from the insurance company, though.
[21:04] <Pendulum> I'm not sure my insurance covers it at all, tbh
[21:05] <charlie-tca> I can make it through a normal day with 100mg a day, but it is still about $3 a pill, too
[21:06] <charlie-tca> as for the rest, the VA says, "what do you think will help?" and prescribes whatever I tell them :-(
[21:06] <Pendulum> heh
[21:06] <charlie-tca> I just don't know the right drugs and doses to even try
[21:07] <Pendulum> I've just had to fight to get any medication
[21:07] <Pendulum> since I spent so long undiagnosed
[21:07] <Pendulum> that the only doctor willing to treat my pain was my psychiatrist
[21:07] <UndiFineD> insurance deciding whether your allowed to get medicine ? that is crazy, it means one day they can say "just die already"
[21:07] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: the US healthcare system shouldn't have "care" in the name. and it's very messed up
[21:08] <charlie-tca> yup
[21:08] <Pendulum> so I'm now trying the pain clinic route, but we'll see
[21:10] <charlie-tca> My sister is doing that, too. Trigeminal Neuralgia for 10 years
[21:10] <Pendulum> unfortunately I maxed out on non-narcotics when I was about 18
[21:10] <Pendulum> and no one likes putting someone my age on narcotics
[21:11] <charlie-tca> heh, they don't like putting someone my age on them. We have to push for it
[21:11] <charlie-tca> addictive, they said. 
[21:12] <charlie-tca> my answer: takes the pain lower? addictive is better than not at all
[21:12] <charlie-tca> but, then you have to keep increasing the dose to maintain the effectiveness
[21:12] <maco> Pendulum: one of my cousins has the narcotics fight in hospital ERs regularly
[21:14] <Pendulum> charlie-tca: medical marijuana is my answer to how they should solve that problem. doesn't generally end up with the same levels of tolerance as narcotics do
[21:15] <charlie-tca> This is true too. Doesn't calif. have that now?
[21:15] <Pendulum> a bunch of states do
[21:15] <Pendulum> CA has for a while
[21:15] <Pendulum> sadly my state doesn't :(
[21:15] <charlie-tca> Oregon has it, Idaho does not
[21:16] <Pendulum> I'm actually on marinol, which works better for me than a narcotic but not as well as actual marijuana, but we never managed to actually get dosage that was perfect with it because we were worried about messing too much
[21:16] <UndiFineD> tried medicinal weed ?
[21:16] <charlie-tca> UndiFineD, not legal in many of the states here
[21:16] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: in the Netherlands yes, but not availible everywhere here (it's what we were just discussing)
[21:17] <UndiFineD> sometimes pot works better than morfine
[21:17] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: not the only reason I love Amsterdam, but I have to say I'm in better shape there than I am anywhere else these days ;-)
[21:22] <UndiFineD> move to another state / country perhaps ?
[21:25] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: if I could, I would
[21:25] <UndiFineD> hajour:my eepc crashed so can t come on my own chat.
[21:25] <UndiFineD> hajour:not my falt this time
[21:25] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: say hi to hajour for me :)
[21:29] <charlie-tca> Well, I better go try to natty again
[21:29] <UndiFineD> hajour: pendulum in 2008 i had a acute hernia.they have operate 3 days later.they have give me morfine a lot.but i needed more and more.my neighbour hath ms.she adviced me weet for the pain.i needed not mutch to ease my muscles 
[21:31] <UndiFineD> hajour:they hat say i not was able to walk again.
[21:32] <UndiFineD> hajour:just proved my body is weird i think. because in about 10 months i walked again with no help
[21:34] <UndiFineD> hajour:but i think that the boss from your haeltcare must exsperiance the pain you have.lookwhat he have to say after that day
[21:35] <UndiFineD> hajour: Pendulum about the accessibility program
[21:36] <UndiFineD> hajour: What you think of the sugestions i have made?
[21:37] <UndiFineD> hajour: UndiFineD  have help with the technical words and spelling
[21:39] <UndiFineD> good night charlie-tca 
[21:40] <charlie-tca> good night, UndiFineD 
[21:40] <UndiFineD> hajour: goodnight charlie-tca 
[21:40] <charlie-tca> good night, hajour
[21:41] <UndiFineD> LOL hajour was mistaken by the word "natty"
[21:41] <UndiFineD> I explain
[21:42] <UndiFineD> hajour: thought you was going to sleep charlie-tca 
[21:42] <charlie-tca> oh
[21:43] <charlie-tca> Sorry. I just have to try and fix Natty Narwhal
[21:43] <UndiFineD> hajour: sorry
[21:43] <charlie-tca> I broke it in three systems at the same time
[21:43] <UndiFineD> clusterssh ?
[21:44] <charlie-tca> no, three different installs, one on a p4 2.8GHz. One on VirtualBox and one on a amd64
[21:44] <charlie-tca> and three different problems, too. I am good!
[21:46] <UndiFineD> bug triaging :)
[21:46] <UndiFineD> I should do some testing on natty myself soon too
[21:46] <charlie-tca> It isn't really working yet
[21:46] <UndiFineD> i use vm
[21:47] <UndiFineD> virtualbox
[21:48] <charlie-tca> yeah, me too. but with unity and compiz, VBox won't work for Ubuntu images
[22:06] <Pendulum> also, VM's don't generally do 3-D accelleration which means you can't test Unity on them
[22:07] <UndiFineD> my system does not do 3d at all
[22:07] <Pendulum> *nods*
[22:07] <charlie-tca> I bought an ATI video card so I can test natty
[22:08] <UndiFineD> compiz does work, for a bit, but the dual gpu setup is giving poor performance
[22:08] <UndiFineD> onboard bad ati does the rendering for an offboard good ati gpu
[22:09] <UndiFineD> onboard does not get turned off due to a hardware bug
[23:53] <UndiFineD> great to see duanedesign 's cli companion nearing release: helps for memory issues