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[14:15] <nisshh> aquarius, sorry, i forgot about the hack session we were going to do on monday, my bad, is now a good time?
[14:16] <nisshh> im free for the next couple of hours
[14:18] <aquarius> nisshh, heya, pal. Yeah, now's good
[14:19] <nisshh> aquarius, cool, so have you created your chapter and pushed it to the branch?
[14:19] <aquarius> nisshh, not yet, no; I only created something just to play around. I thought we'd talk about what should be in it
[14:19] <nisshh> fair enough
[14:20] <nisshh> aquarius, so what is in the sample app that uses desktopcouch?
[14:20] <nisshh> thats what the chapter will be about, as well as a general introduction to couchdb itself i guess
[14:21] <aquarius> nisshh, that's what I'm not sure about -- is there one sample app for the whole book, or is there just one for my chapter? (Sorry, I haven't kept up on this sort of thing.)
[14:22] <nisshh> aquarius, look in the branch, there is a directory called sample-app or something similar, there is one sample app for the whole manual
[14:22] <nisshh> the whole sample app is in there
[14:23] <aquarius> k. It seems to be called "feed reader" :)
[14:23] <nisshh> yeah
[14:24] <nisshh> its supposed to be an identica client prettymuch
[14:25] <aquarius> ok. At the moment it just fetches an RSS feed and displays the contents in a DictionaryGrid
[14:25] <nisshh> yeah
[14:25] <aquarius> what else is it planned to do? :)
[14:26] <nisshh> i think thats as far as Rick got when he was creating it
[14:26] <aquarius> oh. heh :)
[14:26] <aquarius> also, uses BeautifulSoup for parsing xml. ouch. Still, that's not what we're working on :)
[14:27] <nisshh> yeah
[14:27] <aquarius> what else should we do? I mean, I don't want to do anything to do with posting to identica or anything, because the way you should do that (as part of the platform!) is to use libgwibber.
[14:28] <nisshh> yeah
[14:29] <nisshh> aquarius, Rick keeps telling me he wants to re write the whole sample app, but he hasnt told me what he wants to change/improve etc, so i dont know what part will use desktopcouch, etc
[14:30] <aquarius> then it is difficult to know what I should write about :)
[14:30] <aquarius> so, let's leave that aside for now, and talk about section headings
[14:31] <nisshh> yep
[14:32] <aquarius> my inclination is to write about the following things: what desktopcouch is, what benefits it provides over other storage approaches, how it ties into Ubuntu One; how to createa  database, store things in it, read things from it; how to query your desktopcouch data store; how to view the data in it for debugging; some thoughts on the sort of data you should or should not store therein; pointers to external re
[14:32] <aquarius> sources.
[14:32] <nisshh> that sounds good
[14:33] <nisshh> aquarius, thats just about the perfect order to put it all in too
[14:33] <aquarius> that's what I thought. :)
[14:34] <aquarius> and obviously once I know what the sample app is going to be, I'll illustrate that with examples taken from the sample app.
[14:34] <nisshh> aquarius, well, the idea is that the manual is used to teach the reader how to create a working copy of the sample app
[14:35] <aquarius> *nod* absolutely
[14:35] <aquarius> but I can't illustrate examples from the sample app if I don't know what the sample app is going to do. Need to talk to rickspencer3 once he gets here, I suppose
[14:35] <nisshh> yeah
[14:36] <nisshh> we also want the user to learn by doing, not by just copy/pasting
[14:36] <nisshh> so encouragement to experiment and add things is a big plus
[14:37] <nisshh> aquarius, are you able to hang around till rick joins? so we can discuss this together?
[14:38] <aquarius> sure thing
[14:38] <nisshh> cool
[14:39] <nisshh> is he travelling or something though, i havent seen him on IRC for a couple of days now
[14:39] <nisshh> hopefully he will be on in the next couple of hours
[14:46] <nisshh> aquarius, rick's here
[14:47] <nisshh> rickspencer3, whats the deal with the sample app currently? you mentioned a while ago you wanted to redo it completely
[14:47] <rickspencer3> nisshh, I don't know that i want to redo it completely, since there's hardly any code for it
[14:47] <rickspencer3> what's up?
[14:48] <nisshh> well, aquarius is just sorting out his chapter and what is in it, he doesnt know what part of the sample app will be using desktopcouch
[14:49] <nisshh> hence, he cant write that part of his chapter
[14:49] <aquarius> rickspencer3, essentially, I can decide to add some new stuff to the sample app which uses DC, but I don't know what more you want to do with the sample app than what it already does
[14:50] <rickspencer3> aquarius, I don't really know either
[14:50] <aquarius> :)
[14:50] <rickspencer3> I guess you could just store some configuration data or something?
[14:50] <aquarius> right, if you don't have a specific plan, then I'll do something appropriate. No worries.
[14:50] <rickspencer3> cool
[14:51] <nisshh> excellent
[14:51] <aquarius> nisshh, so, we need to talk about what else the sample app will do in other chapters. At the moment there's nothing in the app for desktopcouch to do, because the app hardcodes one specific identica feed and displays it in a window. Don't need configuration or storage for that ;) So, what are other people planning to do to it?
[14:53] <nisshh> aquarius, well, there is an indicator applets chapter
[14:53] <nisshh> pretty self explanitory what that does
[14:53] <aquarius> ah, so that'll integrate the sample app into the Messaging Menu?
[14:53] <nisshh> jono was going to write a gstreamer chapter, but he no longer has time
[14:53] <aquarius> again, doesn't really need storage or configuration.
[14:53] <nisshh> yeah, either the messaging menu or on its own
[14:54] <nisshh> aquarius, maybe the sample app could have to ability to fetch and display multiple peoples timelines, and the URL's could be stored in couchdb?
[14:55] <nisshh> im not sure how efficient that would be though, tbh
[14:55] <nisshh> and im not sure if libgwibber has support for that yet
[14:55] <aquarius> nisshh, sure, although...then it's a general identica reader. Which is what gwibber is for, and that's part of the platform :) I'm not brilliantly keen on duplicating what libgwibber does.
[14:56] <nisshh> aquarius, well, this is not necessarily for the user to release into the wild, just for them to learn, maybe we should say that in the manual?
[14:57] <aquarius> nisshh, oh, agreed, but having our manual which says "use the platform: here, look, here is a sample app which doesn't use the platform but instead reimplements some of it, so you can learn" is a pretty mixed message ;)
[14:57] <nisshh> true :)
[14:57] <aquarius> I'm thinking about, perhaps, remembering which items you've read, which items you've expanded, something like that
[14:58] <nisshh> so an RSS reader? not an identica reader?
[14:58] <nisshh> aquarius, ^^^
[14:58] <aquarius> not sure. At the moment, the items are all wider than the window; I was wondering about expanding an individual item to be larger which would show details of the user who posted it, something like that
[14:59] <aquarius> but I don't think I like that idea
[14:59] <aquarius> at the moment it *is* an rss reader, it just happens to be reading a feed from identica ;)
[14:59] <nisshh> yeah
[14:59] <nisshh> thats true
[15:02] <nisshh> aquarius, i think have a general feed reader and use your idea of having it remember unread/read/expanded, etc, using couchdb
[15:02] <nisshh> sounds like a good idea, but is it doable?
[15:03] <aquarius> depends on what you mean by doable
[15:04] <aquarius> to make this a general feed reader, we need to maintain the list of feeds (fine to do in DC), and allow people to edit that list (which requires UI)
[15:04] <nisshh> aquarius, well, is it a reasonable use case of desktopcouch? is it simple enough for a new developer to understand? will the code be clean or will it be all hacky?
[15:04] <nisshh> yeah
[15:05] <aquarius> storing your list of feeds in DC is a fine use of desktopcouch -- your list of subscriptions then follows you around
[15:05] <nisshh> yeah
[15:05] <nisshh> that should be pretty simple to do actually
[15:06] <nisshh> aquarius, so are you happy to do that?
[15:07] <nisshh> although, i dont have a use for gstreamer in the sample app :)
[15:07] <aquarius> well, I am, but I don't know that I'll have time to write up those changes in other chapters
[15:07] <nisshh> which changes in other apps?
[15:07] <nisshh> chapters*
[15:08] <aquarius> well, if I change the UI, for example, do other already-written chapters have screenshots of the UI? Or snippets of code from the sample app which I'll now be altering?
[15:08] <nisshh> aquarius, there are no screenshots in the manual yet, although the code might have to be changed a bit in other chapters
[15:09] <aquarius> yeah. that's what I don't think I'll have time to do
[15:09] <nisshh> aquarius, i tell you what, if your happy to change the code relating to your chapter, i will change any other required code
[15:09] <aquarius> altering the sample app, adding DC support to remember the feed list and other things, and writing the DC chapter
[15:09] <aquarius> ah, ok, cool :)
[15:09] <nisshh> yeah
[15:09] <nisshh> if you do that, ill do any code changes needed in other chapters
[15:10] <nisshh> none of the other chapters are actually finished yet
[15:10] <nisshh> all the code needs bringing in line with the sample app, currently its all just generic examples
[15:11] <nisshh> godbyk, ping
[15:12] <nisshh> aquarius, even if you just write bits of the chapter whenever you have small amounts of free time, that would be enough so that most of the chapter would be there by release time
[15:13] <nisshh> or even sooner if we work hard :)
[15:13] <aquarius> *nod*
[15:13] <aquarius> what's "release time"?
[15:13] <aquarius> Thursday?
[15:13] <nisshh> lol, nope
[15:13] <nisshh> i think that alpha1 snapshot was too optimistic
[15:13] <nisshh> :)
[15:13] <aquarius> i thought it was, too, but I didn't want to piss on your bonfire :)
[15:14] <nisshh> no, no, you were right
[15:14] <nisshh> i prefer people to be honest with me and just say what they think rather than "not piss on my bonfire" :)
[15:16] <nisshh> aquarius, so, roughly a month or so before natty's release there will be a string freeze where no content can be changed, this is so translators dont constantly get their translations disappearing :)
[15:16] <nisshh> and then hopefully the manual will get released around natty final release
[15:17] <aquarius> :)
[15:17]  * aquarius laughs
[15:17] <nisshh> and about a week or two before string freeze i want to get as many eyes on the manual as possible so we can catch formatting and grammer bugs, style issues, etc
[15:17] <nisshh> hehe
[15:17] <aquarius> I shall try and tell you in future, then, but I avoid telling people how to run their project ;)
[15:18] <nisshh> hehe
[15:18] <aquarius> so I've got a little while. If I don't have at least a provisional version of the chapter written by, let's say, middle of next week, then moan at me? I should have something by then.
[15:18] <nisshh> aquarius, its not "my" project its "our" project :)
[15:19] <aquarius> you're the boss, boss. :)
[15:19] <nisshh> aquarius, well, natty final release is end of next april right? so string freeze will be end of march or so, as long as you have a good draft by next february ill be happy :)
[15:19] <nisshh> haha
[15:20] <nisshh> aquarius, i welcome any suggestions people may have to help me run the project better :)
[15:20] <aquarius> the way to get me to do something is emphatically not to say "you have three months to do it in". Next week. I am not good with long deadlines ;)
[15:21] <nisshh> i see
[15:21] <nisshh> hehe
[15:21] <nisshh> aquarius, ok, you have 3 hours :)
[15:21] <aquarius> ha!
[15:22] <nisshh> i think im getting the hang of this :)
[15:22] <aquarius> I admire your management technique, but not your understanding of my workload. Some sort of middle ground ;)
[15:22] <nisshh> aquarius, i guess as long as im seeing progress :)
[15:23] <nisshh> well thats just it, i have no idea what your workload is like, you see, so i have to just account for a large workload, like so many of you guys have :)
[15:23] <nisshh> which is why i started off with a long deadline
[15:24] <nisshh> aquarius, so, yeah, next week, rough draft of most of the chapter would be good :)
[15:25] <nisshh> i will start bugging you about this time next week if i havent seen anything new in the branch though :)
[15:25] <aquarius> that's perfecr
[15:26] <aquarius> I need a progress chaser for stuff like this. Well volunteered ;)
[15:26] <nisshh> cool
[15:27] <nisshh> aquarius, im not exactly experienced at running a project, but i realise now that chasing things up and making sure they get done is a big part of it :)
[15:27] <aquarius> it's damned nearly the only part of it, but don't tell anyone I said that. :P
[15:27] <nisshh> haha
[15:28] <nisshh> aquarius, ping me anytime if you have any issues
[15:29] <nisshh> (with the manual)
[15:29] <aquarius> cheers, pal
[15:29] <nisshh> :)
[17:03] <ChrisWoollard> nisshh: godbyk messaged me earlier. He is around later and I will talk to him about the font issues then.
[17:05] <ChrisWoollard> was there anything else that you needed from him while i have got him?
[17:09] <nisshh> ChrisWoollard, nah, thats why i pinged him, thanks dude :)
[17:09] <ChrisWoollard> he is around later so. hopefully we can sort it
[17:10] <ChrisWoollard> have you thought of coverpages?
[17:16] <ChrisWoollard> I am going out for a while. catch you later.
[18:28] <godbyk> Hey, nisshh.  Still around?
[18:30] <nisshh> godbyk, yep
[18:32] <nisshh> godbyk, whats up?
[18:36] <godbyk> I just got back from holiday (Thanksgiving).
[18:37] <godbyk> Then I had meetings this morning.
[18:37] <nisshh> fair enough
[18:37] <godbyk> Now I can finally get back to real work again. :-)
[18:37] <nisshh> hehe
[18:37] <godbyk> Were you wanting to pester me about the font stuff in the dev guide?
[18:37] <nisshh> not pester :)
[18:38] <nisshh> i was just going to ask you if you knew WHY it was happening and what we can do to fix it/work around it
[18:38] <nisshh> i realise it must the Ubuntu font, but im not sure why it doesnt display special characters correctly
[18:38] <godbyk> Regarding bug 682057, it's because the \then command tries to print a Unicode character that doesn't (yet) exist in the Ubuntu fonts.
[18:38] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 682057 in ubuntu-developer-manual "Characters not supported by the Ubuntu Font." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/682057
[18:39] <nisshh> i see
[18:39] <nisshh> so i guess we just have to wait till these missing unicode characters get added to the font?
[18:39] <nisshh> godbyk, ^^^
[18:40] <godbyk> It tries to print ‣ (U+2023), but that character doesn't exist in the Ubuntu font.
[18:40] <godbyk> There are a few workarounds available.
[18:40] <nisshh> cool
[18:40] <godbyk> 1. Print that character from a different font.  (Easy enough to do.)
[18:40] <godbyk> 2. Pick a different font for the text.  (I don't think Ubuntu looks terribly good for the text font in this case, frankly.)
[18:41] <dutchie> use a different character?
[18:41] <godbyk> You could use a different character within the Ubuntu font, too, if an appropriate one were availab.e
[18:41] <godbyk> available, rather.
[18:41] <dutchie> does it have  → ?
[18:41] <nisshh> yeah
[18:42] <nisshh> dutchie, oh, urgh, not that arrow character, that looks so ugly :)
[18:42] <godbyk> dutchie only picked that one because it gives him an excuse to use the compose key. ;-)
[18:42] <nisshh> haha
[18:43] <dutchie> godbyk: maybe ;)
[18:43] <dutchie> discovered a fun new character you can do with compose the other day
[18:44] <nisshh> godbyk, tbh, i think its the way evince renders the PDF that makes the Ubuntu font look crap
[18:44] <dutchie> ☭
[18:44] <nisshh> its a bit blurry
[18:45] <dutchie> there's always ‽ too
[18:45] <nisshh> dutchie, lol, that is a strange symbol :)
[18:45] <Omega> Hah, dutchie, I wasn't expecting that in this channel.
[18:45] <dutchie> Omega: compose CCCP (make sure it's capitals)
[18:45] <nisshh> wow, everyone is awake tonight :)
[18:45] <Omega> I'm in an anarchy channel.
[18:46] <Omega> And I was just about to switch to it
[18:46] <Omega> And I saw your hammer and sickle
[18:47] <godbyk> Is there a cool way to define new compose-key combinations?
[18:47] <godbyk> ('cool' meaning 'doesn't require godbyk to recompile things')
[18:47] <nisshh> godbyk, anyway, could we get back to the bug? :)
[18:48] <dutchie> godbyk: pretty sure there is
[18:48] <dutchie> ~/.xmodmap or some such
[18:48] <nisshh> oh god, i HATE that file with a vengeance :)
[18:49] <nisshh> godbyk, regarding the options you gave me before, shall we try number 1?
[18:50] <godbyk> nisshh: We can, yes.
[18:50] <godbyk> Let me give it a shot real quick.
[18:51] <nisshh> dutchie, its very strange, i have a logitech G15 keyboard right, .xmodmap breaks my keyboard and stops it from working at all, g15-tools makes it work a bit better but disables the extra G keys and just default setup works fine except for the M keys and the LCD :)
[18:51] <dutchie> handy :)
[18:51] <nisshh> i will never win with this i swear :)
[18:51] <dutchie> i wonder if that's the same one the guy from #ubuntu-uk was writing drivers for
[18:52] <nisshh> possibly, although there is the G19 and G11 as well
[18:52] <nisshh> G19 being the newest
[18:53] <dutchie> 18:52:59 < Azelphur> the Logitech G19
[18:53] <dutchie> 18:53:05 < Azelphur> and other G-Series devices
[18:54] <godbyk> nisshh: that works for now. I'll commit the change real quick.
[18:54] <nisshh> dutchie, cool
[18:54] <nisshh> godbyk, cheers
[18:54] <dutchie> nisshh: and btw, it's not Azelphur writing it, but ali1234
[18:55] <nisshh> yeah, i dont know who that is though :)
[18:55] <dutchie> Azelphur was doing some front-end or something
[18:55] <dutchie> nisshh: just so you don't go annoying the wrong guy :)
[18:55] <nisshh> dutchie, unless it works 100% ill stick with default setup :)
[18:55] <godbyk> nisshh: Committed as r21.
[18:55] <nisshh> yeah
[18:55] <nisshh> godbyk, cool
[18:57] <nisshh> godbyk, yeah, it looks awesome :)
[18:58] <godbyk> Well, not awesome, but ever-so-slightly-better than before. :-)
[18:59] <nisshh> haha
[18:59] <nisshh> godbyk, well, i still think its evince that is rendering the font badly, the Ubuntu font on my desktop is super sharp
[18:59] <godbyk> Will a lot more material be going into the manual?
[18:59] <godbyk> Different types of material?
[19:00] <nisshh> yes to your first question, not sure what you mean by different types
[19:00] <nisshh> we have 2-3 chapters to add in still
[19:00] <godbyk> I think Ubuntu is fine as a UI font; it just doesn't look very good as a book font, in my opinion.
[19:00] <nisshh> i agree somewhat
[19:01] <godbyk> Different types: body text, code listings, captions, side notes, ... Anything that isn't already provided for by the current manual style?
[19:01] <nisshh> godbyk, we hired a technical writer (well, canonical did) to oversee the editing of the manual and developer.ubuntu.com :)
[19:01] <godbyk> Wow!
[19:01] <nisshh> she starts tomorrow and is helping us till march next year :)
[19:01] <nisshh> freaking awesome :)
[19:02] <nisshh> godbyk, there are a few minor things, like i wish it didnt indent the start of each paragraph, makes it look terrible
[19:02] <godbyk> Okay.
[19:02] <nisshh> and the code font looks WAY too similar to the Ubuntu font
[19:03] <nisshh> it needs to look more different, so the reader can easily tell the difference
[19:03] <godbyk> I'd like to have a good idea of what kind of content will be needed (and some samples to work with) so I can work on the design of the book.
[19:03] <godbyk> I agree.
[19:03] <nisshh> godbyk, well, the consensus among the team is to go with the new Ubuntu branding colors
[19:04] <godbyk> 'kay.
[19:04] <nisshh> and we havent discussed the cover page yet
[19:04] <godbyk> I'll be updating our manual with the Ubuntu colors, too, when I get time to test them in print.
[19:04] <nisshh> cool, maybe you can do both manuals colors then?
[19:04] <godbyk> You should sic thorwil on the cover page.  He always comes up with amazing stuff.
[19:04] <nisshh> yeah
[19:04] <nisshh> i already did
[19:05] <godbyk> Do you guys have a meeting at some point? Maybe I can stop in and chat with you about the book design. See what you guys had in mind.
[19:05] <nisshh> he said just come back to him with any images and a description of the look i want and he will knock one up
[19:05] <godbyk> Sweet.
[19:06] <nisshh> godbyk, we were trying to organize a sprint somewhere, but that wont happen now :)
[19:06] <nisshh> we will probably have a meeting sometime soon
[19:06] <godbyk> Well, I just meant an irc meeting.
[19:06] <godbyk> :)
[19:06] <nisshh> yeah
[19:06] <nisshh> i think we are all having a skype call with the tech editor later this week
[19:06] <nisshh> so maybe then would be a good idea
[19:07] <nisshh> godbyk, ill let you know when something comes up :)
[19:07] <godbyk> cool.
[19:07] <godbyk> nisshh: are you guys planning on releasing this with natty? or sooner than that?  (what's your timeline?)
[19:07] <nisshh> godbyk, yeah, with natty
[19:07] <nisshh> writing freexe in march most likely
[19:08] <nisshh> freeze*
[19:08] <godbyk> Okay.
[19:08] <nisshh> i think we are making good progress, i am pushing everyone hard and chasing up all the loose ends :()
[19:09] <nisshh> i only have another two chapters to sort out now :)
[19:09] <nisshh> oh, plus jenkins chapters
[19:10] <godbyk> I'd like to use the listings package for the code listings. It'll make things look nicer.
[19:11] <nisshh> godbyk, listings package?
[19:11] <godbyk> The downside is that there was a nasty bug between it and polyglossia/babel last I looked.
[19:11] <godbyk> nisshh: http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/listings/listings.pdf
[19:12] <godbyk> It adds things like line numbering.
[19:12] <godbyk> And syntax highlighting.
[19:12] <nisshh> very nice
[19:13] <nisshh> that would be awesome
[19:13] <nisshh> godbyk, because then we could say things like "see line x in the following example:"
[19:14] <nisshh> instead of "see the fourth line from the bottom in the following example:"
[19:14] <nisshh> and the syntax highlighting would make it so much more readable
[19:15] <godbyk> nisshh: precisely.
[19:15] <nisshh> yeah
[19:16] <nisshh> godbyk, remember those tables i wanted to turn into columned lists a while ago? well, they arent displaying properly still :)
[19:17] <godbyk> nisshh: can you give me a page number?
[19:18] <nisshh> godbyk, hmm, one sec
[19:20] <nisshh> godbyk, pages 7 & 8
[19:24] <godbyk> nisshh: Ah, I see.. Where it's centering the first columns on the page?
[19:25] <nisshh> yeah, and it indents the last column too
[19:25] <nisshh> godbyk, anyway dude, i need to get some sleep, if you fix the issue, just commit it to trunk and ill see it in the morning :)
[19:26] <godbyk> nisshh: I'll see what I can do.  G'night!
[19:27] <nisshh> gnight, thanks godbyk :)
[19:27]  * nisshh is sleeping now :)