[01:07] <hajour> hai Cheri703 
[01:07] <Cheri703> hi
[01:10] <hajour> there are comming changes in ubuntu tour Cheri703 for accessibility
[01:10] <Cheri703> nice
[01:11] <hajour> i was yesterday there with my mentor.
[01:11] <hajour> and i was very nervous
[01:12] <hajour> my introduction was not so good.but later it was going better
[01:13] <Cheri703> that's good then
[01:13] <phillw> Cheri703: hajour did an excellent presentation of accessibility needs, the guys who look after ubuntu-tour have taken on board what was discussed and are going to action. hajour is a star :D
[01:13] <Cheri703> awesome!
[01:13] <hajour> yes its just if there are many people i become nervous
[01:13] <Pendulum> hajour: that's wonderful!
[01:14] <hajour> thanks blushes
[01:15] <hajour> its nice to know when there are results
[01:15] <phillw> hiyas Pendulum, we were asked by one of the people who pop by onto #lubuntu-offtopic from that team to have a chat with them. I have a feeling that hajour may quickly find herself in demand across various teams.
[01:16]  * hajour hopes she will be doing it good fore everyone
[01:17] <phillw> #lubuntu-offtopic is an area where people from the various teams pop by for a chat about things, do not be a stranger. It is why the room was created. Each team has it's own area, but it's nice to have a 'neutral' one where they are welcome to get to know each other and let each other know of their own projects.
[01:18] <hajour> :)
[01:19] <phillw> hajour: you are doing excellent work, in both raising accessibility and being to talk to the people behind various projects / channels.
[01:19] <UndiFineD> people showing interest in other peoples projects makes them feel good too
[01:20] <Pendulum> cool
[01:20] <Pendulum> I'm sorry I haven't been around so much for the last couple weeks. I'm going through a difficult health patch :-/
[01:21] <UndiFineD> aww
[01:21] <phillw> UndiFineD: it was something I hoped for on #lubuntu-offtopic, but the way various team members know just to pop in have a chat has exceeded my expectations by a long way.
[01:21] <phillw> Pendulum: I'm sorry to hear that. :(
[01:21] <Pendulum> phillw: it happens
[01:22] <hajour> what i do is to known them where problems are and if i have possible solutions.but i also say what i find good on there project
[01:22] <Pendulum> I really want to put together a blog post about "lessons from chronic illness as applied to open source" and include a link to the spoon theory, but I dunno if I will
[01:22] <UndiFineD> Pendulum, where is that blog ?
[01:22] <UndiFineD> I bookmarked, which means I forget
[01:22] <hajour> o that not so good Pendulum  hope you will be feeling better soon
[01:23] <phillw> Pendulum: having had full blown 'flu for the first time on my 48 years, I now really appreciate what being ill is like. I was not as ill when my appendix burst.
[01:24] <phillw> Pendulum: we have met before? does vpolink ring a memory with you?
[01:25] <phillw> Derrick was an AOL moderator.
[01:26] <Pendulum> phillw: nope, have not met before as far as I know
[01:26] <phillw> speak of the devil....
[01:26] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: are you looking for the spoon theory blog? or my personal blog?
[01:27] <UndiFineD> the accessibility blog
[01:27] <phillw> I do recall discussing with the author / poster of the spoon theory about it on VPOLink
[01:27] <Pendulum> phillw: I'm not the author, just a fan and someone who has been aware of it since early days (I do somewhat know Christine, but only because I've been on the message board since early days)
[01:27] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: the accessibility blog is ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com but there's nothing on there yet
[01:28] <Pendulum> for those who don't know the spoon theory it's http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory-written-by-christine-miserandino/
[01:30] <Pendulum> (and well worth a read)
[01:30] <phillw> Pendulum: I said that a good hug and a few kind words is worth about 1/2 a spoon.
[01:30] <hajour> mmm Pendulum  phillw Cheri703  i noticed that the people are more motivated if they are not only hear what needs to change because it is not good for accessibility.but also what there is good on there program
[01:32] <phillw> hajour: I nearly walked away from accessibility the second time over just criticism, and no help / pointers to let me improve it.
[01:33] <Pendulum> yeah, I'm hoping doing both will help
[01:34] <Pendulum> because I think there's a lot of good out there :)
[01:34] <Pendulum> phillw: I wish. I might then end the day with 1/2 a spoon ;-)
[01:35] <hajour> and phillw  you have something on my help?:P
[01:35] <UndiFineD> so you get a hug and a few kind words from all of us, then you have enough to get through tomorrow ;)
[01:36]  * hajour hugs phillw 
[01:37]  * hajour hugs Pendulum  and Cheri703 
[01:37] <hajour> UndiFineD,  gets them in real :P
[01:37] <phillw> hajour: hopefully the christmas card, with a few kind words in will count towards 1/2 a spoon.
[01:37]  * Pendulum hugs hajour 
[01:37] <UndiFineD> but really Pendulum, It is no fun to be sick / disabled / jobless, we do our best to make something of our days
[01:38] <hajour> :D more like a full spoon 
[01:39] <Pendulum> UndiFineD: and since at the moment I seem to be all 3 of those things :P ;-)
[01:39] <hajour> you known i have not worked in 18 years.i thit not come further then a job interview .most of the time i even not came till there
[01:41] <hajour> so i was feeling like i was nothing.they did not look further then my handicaps
[01:41] <hajour> then i came here
[01:41] <Pendulum> hajour: we take everyone :D
[01:41] <phillw> Your paragraphs are not even using paragraph elements. This site does not pass any level of accessibility. Welcome to the limitations and mis-information of automated accessibility testing tools! 
[01:41] <phillw> The navigation list on the left should use list elements, which can then be styled as you wish. The title attributes are repetitiveand should be removed. (Oops, got that last link direct from my bookmarks, then realised RNIB WAC still isn't fixed.) 
[01:42] <hajour> and fore the first time i was treated like a full person.i don can bescribe how that feels
[01:42] <phillw> after I blew my top at them, I got.... Phil, sorry for the abrupt welcome to the forum - my time here is very limited so I have to be direct in order to cover as much as possible. 
[01:43] <Pendulum> phillw: ugh
[01:43] <Pendulum> hajour: we're so glad to have you :)
[01:45] <phillw> hajour: they did proceed to help me with a lot of stuff, as did a few other people.
[01:45] <hajour> :)
[01:46] <hajour> UndiFineD,  have told what you have writhe phillw 
[01:47] <phillw> hajour: I will have a closer look at what font size to use on http://mgjuddltd.co.uk/conformance.php As the current css rules are bit in discussion, I'm not too sure how to code it without breaking all the existing compliance that I have.
[01:48] <hajour> but it takes time to lose the insecureness i think
[01:48] <Pendulum> phillw: btw, you don't know Flash Bristow, do you?
[01:48] <hajour> ok i will do that
[01:49] <phillw> Pendulum: no, I do not.
[01:50] <phillw> hajour: I have seen the ability to change style sheets over, but would have to do a bit of research on it.
[01:50] <Pendulum> phillw: okay, she's just someone I know in the UK who does loads of accessible web design and site testing and stuff
[01:51] <hajour> the small fonts have to be a bit bigger and wider
[01:51] <phillw> Pendulum: I'd have to dig through my logs to find the list of people who helped me, but http://www.accessifyforum.com/ is an excellent resource.
[01:51] <Pendulum> cool
[01:53] <hajour> same on that site
[01:53] <phillw> Pendulum: whilst I may not seem overly active on the channel or mailing list, it does not mean I have got 'bored' of the subject. It took 3 months of blood, sweat and tears to get http://mgjuddltd.co.uk/conformance.php something that I'm very proud of. I would have accepted AA / Level 2 but was pushed to go for the AAA / Level 3 one.
[01:54] <Pendulum> phillw: I didn't think you were bored or anything :)
[01:55] <phillw> as part of the forthcoming php / web design classrooms that are to be held, I will be doing at least one on accessibility.
[01:55] <Pendulum> cool
[01:55] <hajour> nice
[01:58] <phillw> if they learn to code it from day one, it is second nature to them. That is much better than have to retro-fit it.
[01:59] <Pendulum> yes
[01:59] <phillw> and my argument is also, it looks good on their C.V. when applying for jobs :)
[02:00] <hajour> phillw, http://www.accessifyforum.com/ what is there with this one?
[02:00] <phillw> what I call a win - win postion :)
[02:01] <phillw> hajour: on there we can ask questions and have sites tested manually. The robot testing system is only so good. We need real people to test sites out.
[02:01] <hajour> tested on what phillw ?
[02:03] <Pendulum> hajour: may I PM you?
[02:03] <hajour> yes
[02:03] <hajour> you may Pendulum 
[02:03] <phillw> to actually have a real person go and try a site out. In your case you have asked for the font size to be increased, until you asked for that it was purely being tested by blind people for navigation, you are the first person with poor eyesight to bring that issue to me.
[02:03] <phillw> Pendulum: you may PM me any time, no request needed.
[02:04] <UndiFineD> phillw, great idea on the accessibility inside the php class
[02:04] <Pendulum> phillw: okay, thanks :)
[02:05] <hajour> yes phillw  i think its great to the lesson
[02:05] <hajour> ok.do you want i takea look on that site to phillw ?
[02:06] <phillw> UndiFineD: tenach is dead keen on it, I've also been asked to explain about the use mysqlrealescapestring for protecting databases from hacking attacks.
[02:06] <UndiFineD> \o/
[02:06] <phillw> hajour: is that site easy to read to and follow?
[02:07] <hajour> no
[02:07] <phillw> UndiFineD: it is going to be one seriously fantastic series of classrooms.
[02:07] <UndiFineD> yes I think so too
[02:08] <phillw> hajour: where are you having problems? that way I can let the site owner know.
[02:08] <hajour> the subject from http://www.accessifyforum.com/ are to close on eich thoter .alcohol is begin lossing effect
[02:10] <phillw> hajour: okay, let's have a chat tomorrow. I want that template for the forum systems that a lot of us use to be a good one for accessibility.
[02:10] <hajour> uch that standing strange here
[02:12] <hajour> for info.i bin run out of medicine .in alcohol,sigarettes,coffee ans some other stuf .there are things in what also is in my medicine
[02:12] <hajour> so i have use alcohol for need solution for a copple of hours.to be able to function.
[02:13] <phillw> hajour: I need it in small doses all day, it keeps me functioning.
[02:14] <hajour> you now what happen when it not more works
[02:14] <phillw> at the age of 48, so far so good :)
[02:15] <hajour> :) phillw 
[02:16] <phillw> Although it does scare my customers that I can sit with them for 6 hours, they are completely drunk and it is as if I was drinking water the whole time :P
[02:16] <hajour> i i prefer medicine instead of alcohol.:)
[02:17] <phillw> I am the other way round. But whichever works best is the one to use.
[02:17] <hajour> i don`t become drunk.
[02:17] <hajour> yes you are right phillw 
[02:18] <phillw> If I have 3 bottles of red wine in a couple hours, then I do start to feel the effects. Other than that, it has little effect on me.
[02:21] <hajour> same phillw  i now because i noticed when i was 18.from 19 i almost never drink again alcohol.
[02:22] <hajour> phillw,  may i talk to you in pm?
[02:23] <phillw> Every time I move to a new pub, there are always a group of people who want to play "Get the Landlord Drunk", it only takes a couple of goes before they realise that it is not going to happen and I can drink them under the table, and be cheery the next day with no hang-over LP
[02:23] <phillw> hajour: you do not ever need to ask permission to PM me
[02:23] <hajour> :)
[02:24] <phillw> hajour: you are my padawan, do not forget :)
[02:25] <hajour> ok:)
[20:20] <phillw> hiyas Pendulum
[20:40] <hajour> larger and thicker fonts .the paragraphs of the separate topics needs more space between them
[20:41] <hajour> first page author names have to be larger and thicker fonts
[20:42] <hajour> Register,Home,Search,Memberlist,Help  also larger thicker fonts
[20:46] <hajour> better and i think easier is a application for to choose color and font size
[20:47] <hajour> page s from http://www.accessifyforum.com/forum2/ i mean
[20:58] <hajour> from http://forum.phillw.net/index.php?sid=1068c9142fd332aa6631356f5862fedd fonts need to be thicker and larger.if possible same application  for choose size color.btw i like the colors for me they are good.but for others not.by esample color blind
[20:59] <hajour> phillw, ask by ubuntu tour if they can help with that.and if they cant.they now who can possible
[21:00] <phillw> hajour: I can edit the css file to alter the font size. Light text on a dark background is always easier to read.
[21:01] <hajour> http://forum.phillw.net/index.php?sid=1068c9142fd332aa6631356f5862fedd the paragraphs of the separate topics needs more space between them
[21:01] <hajour> yes thats true
[21:03] <hajour> i have watch it like this.think you are a person.needs to work also on travel.but have a notebook.sight is not very good of the person
[21:03] <charlie-tca> um, phillw. light text on dark is bad for some of us
[21:04] <hajour> a notebook monitor is most not very large
[21:04] <hajour> yes thats why i was saying from the application
[21:04] <hajour> shal i ask for you by ubuntu tour?
[21:06] <hajour> ore they want to do it for you?
[21:07] <Pendulum> phillw: I've found that what works for people for contrast varies too greatly to say one way is always better than the other.
[21:08] <Pendulum> Idealy websites would offer a couple different combinations
[21:08] <hajour> i know how hard it is when you worked so hard on something.and then it have to be very different
[21:08] <Pendulum> but I know that's not something people like to do if they don't have to
[21:09]  * hajour hugs phillw 
[21:11] <hajour> phillw,  is busy also helping in lubuntu-offtopic
[21:16] <phillw> charlie-tca: then I will adjust the other stylesheet that is included to do a dark text on light background. Until you good people let us know what you need, we cannot do it :)
[21:17] <phillw> I only write the stuff :P
[21:17] <charlie-tca> We need adjustablility whenever possible. There is no good for all of us setting we have found. what works for one fails for another.
[21:18] <JanC> phillw: make sure people can easily adjust with local overrides  ;)
[21:19] <JanC> testing with CSS disabled might give a good idea too
[21:20] <Pendulum> phillw: a website that's good at showing possible types of adjustability (although their colour combinations are horrid and their large type is not quite large enough for people) is www.bbc.co.uk/ouch
[21:21] <phillw> I need a default one, so people can select their prefered style, I can have 100's of style sheets on there.
[21:22] <AlanBell> how do you make the preference sticky?
[21:23] <phillw> AlanBell: in the user control panel, they select the one they want to use. the forum will then remember it for them.
[21:24] <phillw> for a web site, it would need a sticky cookie.
[21:25] <phillw> *persistant cookie*
[21:29] <hajour> not forget speech
[21:29] <hajour> for blind persons
[21:31] <JanC> not only for blind people, also for some people who have CFS etc.
[21:31] <JanC> CFS = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome
[21:33] <phillw> hajour: I think I'd need to add extra programme in for that "Property voice-family doesn't exist for media screen (aural, speech)"
[21:34] <hajour> yes that was a example JanC 
[21:34] <phillw> But that's what orca is for?
[21:34] <hajour> orca hurt my ears.maybe not others
[21:35] <JanC> orca can't hurt your ears  ;)
[21:35] <JanC> you mean the dutch espeak voice
[21:35] <hajour> if i listen it hurts 
[21:35] <hajour> metalic
[21:36] <phillw> http://mgjuddltd.co.uk/conformance.php was manually tested by two blind people, who said they could navigate fine on it.
[21:36] <JanC> orca doesn't talk, it sends text to a program that talks
[21:36] <hajour> 2 is not all
[21:37] <phillw> hajour: getting volunteers is not that easy. It was tested both on windows and ubuntu. There is a limit to what can be done without manual testing. The robots are only so good.
[21:37]  * hajour never gone a use orca again if the voice  stay that they use  now
[21:37] <hajour> blind school
[21:37] <hajour> so easy
[21:38] <JanC> hajour: most blind schools don't use Ubuntu  ;)
[21:38] <hajour> you can offer
[21:38] <hajour> ever asked?
[21:39] <phillw> hajour: I tried out http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33 for the author, he just needs some encouragement to take it to the next level.
[21:40] <hajour> ok phillw nice
[21:41] <hajour> on a school for bad sight and blind you have al kind of eye problems
[21:41] <hajour> there is no better place to test it out
[21:43] <JanC> hajour: do you have contact with such a school?
[21:44] <hajour> there is one in amsterdam
[21:44] <hajour> my cousin was on it.
[21:45] <hajour> and UndiFineD  says also in drachten.
[21:45] <hajour> thats close by where i live
[21:45] <hajour> i can check it out
[21:47] <hajour> but i need to know how much ubuntu programs can i offer if they ask that?
[21:48] <hajour> i have no money to buy disc
[21:48] <phillw> hajour: I know that there is a lot of work being put into 11.04, 10.10 is pretty good.
[21:48] <phillw> hajour: I'll mail you one :D
[21:49] <phillw> or, ten ;)
[21:49] <hajour> to UndiFineD  then i got no much hard disc
[21:49]  * hajour got a eeepc
[21:50] <JanC> you are allowed to copy the Ubuntu CDs as much as you want...   ;)
[21:50] <hajour> JanC,  i got no money to buy disc :)
[21:51] <phillw> hajour: that is why I said I would email you some over. I can't move for the blooming things :P
[21:51] <hajour> i barely can pay my bils and food enz
[21:51] <JanC> the problem is: they already have PCs with Windows or maybe Mac OS X that work, why change to something that needs testing and doesn't work as well now...?
[21:52] <hajour> before i hat this eeepc.i had a old pc
[21:52] <JanC> hajour: I'm sure ubuntu-nl can provide you with as many CDs you need once you can convince them
[21:52] <hajour> UndiFineD,  have put windows and ubuntu on it
[21:52] <phillw> JanC: because for those families who are not rich and cannot afford such things it is free. Same reason as I put lubuntu on to old computers to donate to a local school for kids who's parents cannot afford a computer.
[21:53] <hajour> so it can work together on 1 pc
[21:54] <JanC> phillw: you don't need to convince me, but schools for the blind and blind people around here get most of the software they need paid from a government fund...
[21:54] <phillw> JanC: IBM wanted 400GBP off me to use their programme for testing, I simply do not have money spare.
[21:55] <hajour> ye i have ask around and call and wright to goverment.to get a laptop for my daughter she have very bad form of disalecti
[21:55] <hajour> it have take me 1 year
[21:57] <JanC> phillw: you mean their TTS or speech recognition?
[21:57] <phillw> TTS
[21:57] <phillw> the add on for mozilla firefox is no longer supported.
[21:57] <hajour> uh they ask you money to test there program?
[21:58] <JanC> well, I guess it's a "development kit" or something
[21:58] <phillw> hajour: no, for me to use it to check that the sites I was writing were comaptible with it.
[21:58] <JanC> oh
[21:59] <JanC> we need better open source TTS and more voices for more languages, I guess...
[21:59] <phillw> *compatible*
[21:59] <JanC> but I guess there was a screenreader component to it too
[21:59] <JanC> as in, interpreting HTML, CSS, etc.
[22:00] <JanC> (or the DOM)
[22:00] <phillw> JanC: which is why I suggested encouraging this young french guy http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33
[22:01] <phillw> FireVox was a decent project, but seems to have lapsed.
[22:02] <JanC> shouldn't Orca be able to work with Firefox?
[22:02] <JanC> maybe with the help of an extension...
[22:03] <JanC> creating voices for espeak isn't exactly simple BTW
[22:04] <JanC> at least, not last time I looked at it
[22:04] <hajour> ask people on university who study languish to speak lines in by example
[22:04] <JanC> espeak doesn't use samples
[22:04] <JanC> AFAIK
[22:05] <hajour> mm speak into a mike and a synthesizer use it .that system
[22:05] <phillw> well, I'm going to head off and see how badly I can break my style-sheet for my forum.
[22:06] <phillw> Step 1 - take a backup :D
[22:06] <hajour> :) goodluck phillw 
[22:08] <hajour> just think about it