[03:55] <daanish> hey all =
[03:55] <daanish> exit
[12:40] <coz_> howdy doody
[17:18] <thorwil> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/12/response-more-on-contests-and-something.html
[17:43] <vish> oh!
[17:55] <troy_s> Greets vish, thorwil, et al.
[17:56] <vish> troy_s: hi.. just now reading your reply-post :)
[17:56]  * vish still hasnt finished.. ;)
[17:57] <thorwil> amazing timing! :)
[17:57]  * thorwil -> dinner
[17:59] <troy_s> thorwil: I can't help your timezone.
[18:00] <woutervddn> we should get rid of timezones.. -_-'
[18:00] <troy_s> woutervddn: I believe that is what mailing lists do.
[18:00] <woutervddn> +1 ^^
[18:00] <troy_s> woutervddn: New face. How are you?
[18:01] <woutervddn> I'm fine, thank U
[18:01] <woutervddn> how R U?
[18:01] <troy_s> woutervddn: Fine thanks.
[18:02] <woutervddn> ^^
[18:03] <troy_s> Hark. There's kwwii too.
[18:03] <troy_s> woutervddn: What brings you to the channel?
[18:03] <troy_s> vish: How have things been with you?
[18:04] <woutervddn> the fact that I'm also subscribed to the ML and want to be involved?
[18:04] <troy_s> woutervddn: What does involvement mean to you?
[18:04] <woutervddn> (and because studying for my exams is way less fun..)
[18:04] <vish> been good.. thanks.
[18:04] <troy_s> woutervddn: And I suppose 'why' is likely the best question.
[18:04] <vish> "How many among us are so delusional as to believe there is a wealth of skilled creatives in our culture?"
[18:04] <troy_s> woutervddn: What are you studying?
[18:04] <troy_s> vish: Uh oh.
[18:04] <vish> troy_s: thorwil was just mentioning that to me yesterday.. :)
[18:04] <troy_s> vish: What? Sorry?
[18:05] <troy_s> coz_: Greets friend. Did you get your work up yet?
[18:05] <woutervddn> troy_s: Industrial Sciences
[18:05] <vish> troy_s: regarding the artwork list <thorwil> vish: i think the potential on the list is rather low
[18:06] <troy_s> woutervddn: Everyone believes that. Sadly, it seems there is a question as to "What exactly is the hidden potential people see" and the very real fact that there is a radical difference of opinion on empty terms.
[18:06] <coz_> troy_s,  oh man   I knew when you got back here you would ask that :)
[18:06] <troy_s> coz_: Good. Then you did it right?
[18:07] <troy_s> vish: What is all this blah blah about needing a leader currently?
[18:07] <coz_> troy_s,  ah   no  o0
[18:07] <woutervddn> I'm not following..
[18:07] <troy_s> vish: Sounds more like someone at Canonical is seeking out yet another puppet?
[18:07] <troy_s> woutervddn: I mispressed it... I should have put vish there on that one.
[18:07] <troy_s> woutervddn: So do you create bits?
[18:07] <woutervddn> ow.. :p
[18:07] <vish> troy_s: nope, canonical is not seeking out anything.. ;)
[18:07] <woutervddn> I'm trying to..
[18:07] <troy_s> vish: They should be.
[18:08] <troy_s> vish: Seems relatively symptomatic to exactly what I expressed in my response to you, if you follow.
[18:08] <woutervddn> I was an occasional ubuntu user until a month or 2
[18:08] <troy_s> woutervddn: Do you have any samples of your work? I'd love to see some.
[18:09] <troy_s> kwwii: You have died. Sorry to hear that.
[18:09] <woutervddn> but since then I'm using ubntu for almost everything, so mastering Gimp is one of things on top of my list..
[18:09] <troy_s> woutervddn: And I'm still curious as to what brings you around to the artwork mailing list and such.
[18:09] <vish> troy_s: yea.. but they should but … they do admit that they have not been able to utilize community design minds on Ubuntu.. atleast they know they dont attract designers ;)
[18:10] <troy_s> vish: Not easy that is. For some it seems remarkably simple, for others it seems like trudgework. I personally find it quite fascinating.
[18:10] <woutervddn> jeez, I don't have a to that question tbh.. what brought you here?
[18:10] <troy_s> woutervddn: You are right. I am just sincerely interested.
[18:10] <woutervddn> I love creating artwork, and I'm happy that there is a way to let others benefit from that..
[18:10] <troy_s> woutervddn: Do you have any work up? I'd love to see it.
[18:11] <woutervddn> I'm also in the ubuntu-be loco team and it's just like a good cause to me :p
[18:11] <troy_s> woutervddn: (And apologies if I seemed like I was demanding an answer... I wasn't. I was just trying to see what has been drawing people into the mailing list and such... etc.)
[18:12] <woutervddn> ow it didn't look like you were demanding one, I just couldn't really find an answer to it :p
[18:12] <woutervddn> and I made a proposal for the artwork team logo (but I must warn you it was my first cup of Gimp)
[18:13] <coz_> woutervddn,   inkscape is far easier for logos  or just about anything else compare to gimp
[18:13] <woutervddn> yeah I figured now :p
[18:13] <woutervddn> I'm still new to the open source alternatives..
[18:14] <coz_> woutervddn, `  a photoshopper?
[18:14] <woutervddn> used to be :p
[18:14] <coz_> mm is that one or 2 p's ?
[18:14] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'd be happy to see anything really.
[18:14] <coz_> woutervddn,  troy_s  will be explicitly honest :)
[18:15] <troy_s> coz_: Naw. I'm always interested to see what people have been working on around these parts.
[18:15] <woutervddn> I'm really trying to commit myself to just the O-S alts. but it's hard.. :o the CS5 was just 2 clicks for retouches, here it's like 1000 clicks :p
[18:15] <coz_> troy_s,  I know you are.... but also you are very honest about things ,,,which has always been nice
[18:16] <woutervddn> (searching for some artwork that I have online..)
[18:16] <troy_s> coz_: It's a pretty tough line to walk. I tend to think that there is sincere value in unique identity in work. When you feel an opinion, it is expressed from a place outside of that uniqueness.
[18:17] <coz_> troy_s,   I completely understand
[18:17] <troy_s> coz_: Appreciating work that is well crafted, despite being counter one's personal aesthetic, is a pretty hard skill to hone. I still work hard at it.
[18:17] <woutervddn> I made this as a try for my wallpaper: http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2205/tpmspeaker1.png
[18:18] <troy_s> woutervddn: What is that for?
[18:18] <coz_> troy_s,   ah  ..yes I see what you are saying now
[18:18] <woutervddn> just my wallpaper :)
[18:18] <woutervddn> I've put it up to show a friend.. :)
[18:19] <troy_s> coz_: It's old sillyness really - that whole solipsistic concern with how to communicate. Is it communication or re-assertion of a frail self.
[18:19] <woutervddn> but in the final version the speaker and the fabric behind the front bezel is more visible
[18:19] <troy_s> woutervddn:  How do you feel about it?
[18:19] <woutervddn> about the wallpaper?
[18:19] <troy_s> woutervddn: yes.
[18:20] <woutervddn> well let's see, the holes are a bit to wide, the fabric should show more, and overall the pattern should be way more aligned.. :)
[18:21] <woutervddn> brb, food's ready..
[18:24] <coz_> ah..food alwyas deserves a moment of silence
[18:24] <troy_s> coz_: LOL
[18:24] <coz_> :)
[18:25] <darkmatter> so do farts
[18:25] <coz_> :)
[18:25] <woutervddn> back..
[18:25] <coz_> darkmatter,  and an opened window i would suspect
[18:25] <woutervddn> what do you think troy?
[18:25] <troy_s> woutervddn: What I think is rather irrelevant without knowing what you intend to accomplish.
[18:25] <darkmatter> coz_: that would depend on what triggered the proverbial after dinner mint ;)
[18:26] <coz_> :)
[18:26] <troy_s> woutervddn: And likely even more irrelevant unless you were to place value in what I would say, and for that, you should have zero reason.
[18:28] <troy_s> coz_: So any new work at your end at all?
[18:28] <woutervddn> I would appreciate every comment about it..
[18:28] <troy_s> woutervddn: You shouldn't. That's the point.
[18:28] <troy_s> woutervddn: Sorry to confuse.
[18:28] <coz_> troy_s,  no   ,,, not much I would show at this point.... no time..at least that is the excuse i give myself
[18:29] <woutervddn> why shouldn't I?
[18:29] <troy_s> woutervddn: Hrm... imagine one person commenting. Should you follow their advice?
[18:29] <troy_s> coz_: Hate. You.
[18:29] <coz_> :)
[18:30] <woutervddn> I would take it in mind, reflect the things he said and would look from a distance to what I made.
[18:30] <coz_> everyone's a critic...listen to no one :)   just keep in mind that there is "always" more to learn
[18:30] <woutervddn> If the remarks are relevant then yes I should follow their advive..
[18:30] <troy_s> woutervddn: Beware of the subtle things... like pronouns. Two, why would you consider what someone would say?
[18:32] <troy_s> coz_: I'd think that sits at the other side of the spectrum. Most, dare I say almost all, people listen to someone somewhere. The blurry grey line in the middle is what should be of interest however.
[18:32] <woutervddn> coz_ true, but as long as there are things to learn, you should review every review about everything you've ever made.. :-)
[18:33] <coz_> troy_s,  well yes ... sort of.... I would probably listen to someone ...at least pay attention to them..if I saw glimmers of new approaches to composition
[18:33] <troy_s> woutervddn: The point I'd probably stress is that with a random sampling of opinion, you will inevitably end up with a truly random 'direction'. Worse if you poll a limited group without considering its consistency.
[18:33] <darkmatter> or you could just be a cranky old sob like me. tell the critics to shove it and do what you intended to do in the first place ;)
[18:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: For example, asking for an opinion in a computer science channel would result in a very particular take.
[18:34] <troy_s> vish: I heard the sound of your head hit the keyboard. Wake up or I'll start sending thorwil over there for his dinners.
[18:34] <coz_> lol
[18:35] <vish> troy_s: lol.. no.. just trying to assimilate the response. :)
[18:36] <troy_s> http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2010/12/the-answer-is-simple.html <-- Wow.
[18:37] <troy_s> Wow.
[18:37] <troy_s> Wow.
[18:37] <troy_s> vish: Read that now darn you.
[18:37]  * vish clicks.. :)
[18:37] <troy_s> Mr. Godin is such a wonderful communicator it fills me with envy and jealousy.
[18:38]  * woutervddn is getting himself another piece of lasagna
[18:39] <coz_> mmm food
[18:39] <troy_s> vish: So did you and the rest of the army make progress with the list?
[18:39] <troy_s> vish: Or has it again devolved into software infrastructure?
[18:40] <vish> troy_s: well, i see little hope there..  but who knows.. :)
[18:40] <troy_s> vish: What is the problem?
[18:40] <troy_s> (goofy question really, but...)
[18:41] <darkmatter> when doesn't it devolve into software infrastructure?
[18:41] <troy_s> darkmatter: Why shouldn't it?
[18:42] <vish> troy_s: i tried to bring up that we need to grow a culture/community , and that we need to be able to talk about designs and the ideas that went into making the design submission.. but people think it is bringing in bureaucracy …
[18:43] <troy_s> vish: Not quite surprising. The mailing list has an existing audience. At least the folks that post.
[18:43] <vish> ;)
[18:44] <troy_s> vish: That audience may very well see different needs out of a situation. Which is why I ask "What is the problem". Defining a problem goes a long way to figuring out exactly if anyone else sees one (subject of recent point to a certain extent)
[18:44] <troy_s> vish: Does that make sense?
[18:44] <thorwil> vish: you failed to mention the "mandatory" part of your proposal that's what got you the anti-bureaucracy response
[18:44] <troy_s> thorwil: Erm? You speak in secret Ubuntu code.
[18:44] <vish> ha!
[18:45] <troy_s> vish: And while some would just say FORGE AHEAD, I actually think there is something entirely innovative and unique with that core issue regarding actual art, design, aesthetics. The idea that in fact, if the people from all over the world sat down and discussed art and such, that there would be _radically_ different viewpoints.
[18:45] <troy_s> vish: (Even if the topic stayed _strictly_ within that domain)
[18:45] <vish> thorwil: well, people dint have to announce it themselves, but meh.. even you dint reply ;p
[18:45] <thorwil> troy_s: vish proposed to make it mandatory that submissions to the flickr pools be announced on the list (please just skip the word "submission" and look past the mentioning of specific infrastructure ;p
[18:45] <troy_s> HELP
[18:45] <vish> if it is really that hard for an artist to express what he is trying to convey with the design.. is there really an underlying idea..?
[18:46] <troy_s> thorwil: Ah... the wonderful world of absolutist freedom rearing its ugly head?
[18:47] <troy_s> vish: Erk. Fantastic question. Maybe the work is an endpoint. Hard to figure out the trip without looking at the starting point too?
[18:47] <thorwil> vish: i absolutely want people to become clear and to express what they are trying to achieve
[18:47] <troy_s> vish: How would you analyze... an IRC message?
[18:47] <thorwil> vish: just that mandatory part doesn't fly
[18:48] <vish> thorwil: well, if we dont say 'mandatory' then no one will even try.. ;)
[18:48] <troy_s> इस बुरी अनुवाद.
[18:49] <thorwil> 漢堡包
[18:50] <woutervddn> now that's secret ubuntu language (o_O')
[18:50] <troy_s> thorwil: Might look like a failure to express an idea.
[18:50] <troy_s> thorwil: If you follow me.
[18:50] <thorwil> troy_s: no
[18:50] <vish> thorwil: actually you can clear it up and break the tie.. ;p
[18:51] <thorwil> vish: i just said "hamburger"
[18:51] <vish> thorwil: dint you just eat ? ;p
[18:51] <troy_s> vish: If you and I agree that the whole of art / design is as Glaser said, is communication, we probably need to frame the language.
[18:51] <woutervddn> food is one of the things that makes everyone happy..
[18:52] <thorwil> models?
[18:52] <troy_s> woutervddn: Unless you have been starved for a long, long time, at which point your body will reject the food.
[18:52] <troy_s> thorwil: ?
[18:53] <thorwil> troy_s: the same you said, basically, just more specific
[18:53] <thorwil> fashion models
[18:53] <troy_s> vish: So what is the problem with the list?
[18:53] <troy_s> thorwil: You too.
[18:54] <troy_s> Erm... 'problem'.
[18:54] <troy_s> (Because obviously there is no singular agreement clearly)
[18:54] <vish> there isnt just one problem.. :)
[18:54] <thorwil> vish and i tend to agree on quite a bit. if not, we havn't talked about enough, yet ^^
[18:55] <woutervddn> then you guys should get married? :s
[18:55] <thorwil> woutervddn: we are not into long distance relationships
[18:55] <vish> woutervddn: we already did spend a week together.. ;)
[18:56] <woutervddn> lol vish just solved your problem thorwil :p
[18:56] <troy_s> vish: Which is why I asked woutervddn why they (he/she?) joined the list. What were the expectations.
[18:56] <woutervddn> he..
[18:57] <troy_s> Seeing things from new eyes is interesting. Figuring out who is showing up and why.
[18:57] <vish> troy_s: exactly! i guess people who join the list have a larger expectation on what they can do in Ubuntu design/art
[18:57] <woutervddn> well someone out here did make it clear to me that I shouldn't expect that the next default wallpaper of ubuntu will be mine :p
[18:57] <troy_s> vish: Because if the list, the infrastructure, etc., isn't attracting the audience desired, there is a fundamental potential problem here.
[18:57] <thorwil> oh, those dream-crashers!
[18:57] <troy_s> woutervddn: Why would you want to be the author of the wallpaper?
[18:57] <woutervddn> wasn't it you who told me thorwil? :p
[18:58] <troy_s> woutervddn: Charity?
[18:58] <troy_s> woutervddn: Ego?
[18:58] <troy_s> woutervddn: That's what I'd love to hear.
[18:58] <woutervddn> :p just an example troy_s :p
[18:58] <thorwil> woutervddn: i'm shocked, shocked, i tell you, at the things this thorwil does
[18:58] <woutervddn> XD
[18:59] <troy_s> woutervddn: I think it is an entirely valid one however.
[18:59] <vish> yea, iirc woutervddn was a bit pissed that Ubuntu design was not open enough ;)
[18:59] <troy_s> woutervddn: Which is why I ask. It would obviously be nigh on impossible for me to expect you to answer it with 100% honesty, but even still.
[18:59] <troy_s> vish: Really?
[19:00] <woutervddn> I wasn't pissed.. :p
[19:00] <troy_s> woutervddn: What would you see as being ideal?
[19:00] <vish> troy_s: yea, i think it was after the last 'meeting' that it hit woutervddn that the process was not as open as other aspects of Ubuntu.. ;)
[19:01] <woutervddn> troy_s: that what is ideal?
[19:01] <troy_s> vish: Can a pencil sketch be open? Something _that_ simple. Imagine if you, myself, and thorwil took it upon ourselves to trade brush strokes. First you, then me, then thorwil.
[19:01] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'm asking you darn it!
[19:01] <troy_s> woutervddn: What, given the keys to the kingdom, would you change? Why?
[19:02] <woutervddn> hmm.. lets see..
[19:02] <vish> woutervddn: only 3 wishes !
[19:02] <vish> ;p
[19:02] <woutervddn> @vish darn.. :(
[19:02] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'll give you unlimited. But you need to say something.
[19:02] <troy_s> ;)
[19:02] <darkmatter> I'll make the first wish for you!
[19:03] <troy_s> darkmatter: Go. I'll listen.
[19:03] <woutervddn> ok, go ahead..
[19:03] <troy_s> woutervddn: You shrugged that off.
[19:03] <troy_s> vish: See an issue?
[19:03] <woutervddn> well, just as I was saying after the last meeting, the design team should be open to the artwork team.
[19:04] <darkmatter> troy_s: actually. it would require an essay, since it's not just UX, but technical crap as well ;)
[19:04] <troy_s> woutervddn: So if you were assembling chefs to cook a meal, you would explicitly want it to be open to everyone that showed up prior to the banquet?
[19:04] <troy_s> darkmatter: Bzzt. Lame answer. How about _one_ single thing.;
[19:04] <woutervddn> no, but let me finish :p damn you..
[19:04] <vish> troy_s: not many know what the issue is. :)
[19:04] <troy_s> vish: Oh they do. But sadly it is myriad different.
[19:05] <woutervddn> open as in: they should not hold info to themselves that can cause us to do a lot of work for nothing..
[19:05] <vish> well, the issue does get clearer after thorwil tramples on their hopes/dreams.. ;)
[19:05] <thorwil> what if there's a cook hired by someone with damaged taste-buds, who likes ketchup to everything?
[19:05] <troy_s> vish: And equally sadly appears to be an inability to see that a _healthy_ culture would _also_ have that core difference.
[19:06] <troy_s> thorwil: Or perhaps a cultural taste?
[19:06] <woutervddn> thorwil: then you have a problem :p
[19:06] <troy_s> (I'd also add that while all of this might seem totally frustrating to the point of distraction, I will say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the issues we are discussing here would _not_ have been discussed five years ago. That, in some way, is a hell of a lot of progress.)
[19:07] <woutervddn> btw, what was it that you were complaining about after the last meeting..
[19:07] <troy_s> woutervddn: So they should be open so that you don't waste time creating something?
[19:07] <thorwil> one might wish for a chance that the best cook gets to do the main course
[19:07] <vish> yay! progress!
[19:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Yikes. Who decides the best cook?
[19:07] <troy_s> thorwil: And what is best?
[19:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Surely at McDonald's they have a best cook. As they likely do at a five star hotel in Paris.
[19:08] <troy_s> thorwil: And each, shockingly, _is_ best_ given the context.
[19:08] <woutervddn> troy you are missing the point..
[19:08] <troy_s> woutervddn: Sorry. It is possible.
[19:08] <troy_s> woutervddn: Dare I say inevitable. Could you explain the point please?
[19:08] <thorwil> troy_s: as always, best needs no further definition. it works the same way as with usable and beautiful ;p
[19:08] <troy_s> thorwil: Amen my friend.
[19:08] <troy_s> thorwil: And that too is progress.
[19:08] <troy_s> thorwil: Or ... elegant.
[19:09] <woutervddn> if there would be more communication between the design team and some of those who are deeply involved in the artwork team that would make a lot of things clear..
[19:09] <troy_s> ;)
[19:09] <troy_s> woutervddn: Wait. Show me one instance as to who they should listen to.
[19:09] <troy_s> woutervddn: And what is to be gained?
[19:09] <troy_s> woutervddn: Fair?
[19:09] <woutervddn> how do you mean?
[19:09] <troy_s> woutervddn: Why. Why should they?
[19:09] <darkmatter> troy_s: how about using compositing when it's working instead of depending on it? the move to compiz is a plus, since clutter is still an immature kludge. but as a general rule (not just uby, but nix as a whole) hardcoding a dependency on compositing is bad. dun wanna get into the specific issues regarding x, various drivers, etc (they're well documented, I'll let you read up on them on your own).
[19:10] <thorwil> woutervddn: what the design team has to do and what the community likes to do lead to quite different angles
[19:10] <troy_s> woutervddn: Where is the gain? Is there a gain for Canonical? Is there a gain for the Community?
[19:10] <woutervddn> thorwil, I can understand that..
[19:10] <troy_s> I see neither.
[19:11] <woutervddn> well, if canonical doesn't gain anything with the artwork team then why should they keep it?
[19:11] <troy_s> woutervddn: Again, if you and I sat down with a pencil and exchanged pencil strokes on a simple 8x10.5 piece of paper, is there any reason to believe that the output would be appealing to _any_ audience?
[19:11] <troy_s> woutervddn: "they"?
[19:11] <troy_s> woutervddn: The Ubuntu Art team was founded by a community member long long ago.
[19:11] <woutervddn> canonical
[19:12] <troy_s> woutervddn: It is neither Canonical's creation nor their responsibility to curate.
[19:12] <thorwil> troy_s: where you around at the time? do you more about how it came about?
[19:12] <troy_s> woutervddn: It is _especially_ not their responsibility to console i'mma-wanta-maka-somfin-for-the-Ubuntoo types.
[19:13] <troy_s> thorwil: I believe the art team was more or less set forth by Volvoguy.
[19:13] <coz_> wow I dont remember that
[19:13] <thorwil> http://www.volvoguy.net/ ?
[19:13] <troy_s> coz_: Might have been before your time?
[19:13] <troy_s> thorwil: I believe so. ;)
[19:14] <coz_> troy_s,  possibly  although I was probably wasnt paying attention
[19:14] <thorwil> first time i hear that nick
[19:14] <troy_s> thorwil: http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/
[19:14] <darkmatter> more resources dedicated to making a unified environment that actually gives a unified and predictable end user experience instead of countless fallbacks. better in both the short and long run. short/long run: more resources dedicated to a singular aspect instead of having to continue supporting the obsolete (that's also of great benefit in dealing with problems as they arise at the user level. not having to support a bazillion differ
[19:14] <troy_s> thorwil: I _may_ be mistaken.
[19:15] <troy_s> darkmatter: What if you designed with constraints?
[19:15] <darkmatter> troy_s: shall I continue babbling, going into greater detail, including specifics, or does that sate your curiosity? ;P
[19:15] <woutervddn> troy_s: do you think there is a gain for canonical in the artwork team?
[19:15] <troy_s> darkmatter: What if you let go of worrying about a bazillion different things and focused on one.
[19:15] <troy_s> woutervddn: As it stands now? Hell no.
[19:16] <troy_s> woutervddn: It's nothing more than a PR campaign.
[19:16] <woutervddn> then why should they keep alowing it?
[19:16] <troy_s> woutervddn: And a weak one.
[19:16] <troy_s> woutervddn: Because you are using a term that is a little ... shallow. Allow?
[19:16] <woutervddn> (as much as this might sound weird I must say, glad that you said it..)
[19:16] <thorwil> woutervddn: letting it run is much cheaper
[19:16] <troy_s> woutervddn: Imagine if Ivanka came here and banished this channel and the mailing list?
[19:17] <thorwil> most delightful outrage!
[19:17] <troy_s> woutervddn: And second, without someone creating a pencil and paper there would be even less of a chance of a drawing.
[19:17] <darkmatter> troy_s: that's what I just said (you're failing at multitasking convos today :P)
[19:17] <woutervddn> troy_s you have just confirmed my point :p
[19:17] <troy_s> woutervddn: The opportunities for compelling work are all around us. When someone creates something that tickles an emotion in us, how often do we go "Why didn't I think of that"?
[19:18] <woutervddn> a lot..
[19:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: I was actually saying skip out on that.
[19:18] <troy_s> darkmatter: I don't believe any of that is relevant _at all_.
[19:19] <woutervddn> but if canonical doesn't have any gain, and it doesn't see gain in the futur.. well, then I'm happy to accept Ivanka's ban-message..
[19:19] <woutervddn> ofcourse that would create an outrage..
[19:19] <troy_s> woutervddn: You would be one of the few. But let's ignore that for a second. What would you do if they invested heavily in it?
[19:19] <troy_s> woutervddn: What does _that_ scenario look like?
[19:19] <woutervddn> what do you mean with invest?
[19:19] <troy_s> woutervddn: Well... took a vested interest in the list.
[19:20] <troy_s> woutervddn: (Beyond a 'hey we did the big brush strokes, can you fill in the details here and there for us?)
[19:20] <woutervddn> I think that would trigger action from a lot of ubuntu users to join this team.
[19:20] <woutervddn> to go and create things..
[19:21] <woutervddn> ofcourse a whole lot of them would be crap..
[19:21] <troy_s> vish / thorwil: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-July/000008.html
[19:21] <thorwil> and then we need a zoo for the things
[19:21] <troy_s> woutervddn: Do we want "a lot of ubuntu users"?
[19:21] <woutervddn> but face it, how did you start out? if you were to look at your first design ever, you'd see it was crap to..
[19:22] <troy_s> woutervddn: Wow. Entirely different question. One, I still create crap. Two, the list as an educational device is only as good as those on it.
[19:22] <woutervddn> with every extra member who's designing for the team we have a bigger change of finding the diamonds..
[19:22] <woutervddn> point is that canonical shouldn't abuse us as a PR campaign..
[19:23] <woutervddn> if they do that it is up to us to stop that..
[19:23] <troy_s> vish / thorwil: If you look back at that list, one or two "Wtf are they doing on an artwork mailing list" names should jump out.
[19:23] <troy_s> woutervddn: Um... wait. The list is just a mailing list. Birds of a feather in an ideal world. Idle pot shots from script kiddies cum artists and designers in a worst.
[19:23] <vish> woutervddn: firstly.. there are not many /deeply/ involved in Ubuntu, most of the design/art was done by the Canonical team and they were always doing it … and people interested in helping/supporting were in the artwork list.
[19:24] <troy_s> vish: Indeed. Few realize that Mark privately funded _everything_ they saw.
[19:24] <troy_s> vish: Including every single misstep.
[19:24] <troy_s> vish: Including every single misstep now.
[19:24] <darkmatter> troy_s: and I'm not about to explain why it _is_ relevant unless you're paying me to do so. this is a software industry my dear boy, design and engineering are _not_ separate entities regardless of popular opinion :)
[19:25] <troy_s> darkmatter: I'll pay you in fish for that is all a seagull deserves.
[19:25] <troy_s> ;)
[19:25] <vish> woutervddn: the one part which is not Canonical, is Humanity.. which is where I just got lucky and they do communicate what they need..
[19:25] <troy_s> vish: And prior to that, the rounded icons were designed by Icon Factory.
[19:26] <woutervddn> vish and troy_s: I'm not saying canonical is a bad thing or something..
[19:26] <vish> troy_s: human? oh! Icon factory.. that too might have been commissioned by Canonical , right?
[19:27] <troy_s> woutervddn: I could care if they were. I'd rather that the people that joined a blasted mailing list with _art_ in the title had some sort of vague and ephemeral interest in art.
[19:27] <troy_s> lol
[19:27] <troy_s> vish: Correct.
[19:27] <woutervddn> troy_s true.. :p
[19:27] <troy_s> vish: So while there seems to be much willingness to create self loathing toward the community or failure thereof, _almost all_ of the failure can be directly attributed to...
[19:28] <vish> ;p
[19:29] <troy_s> And, even the word 'failure' is subject to criticism. As to define it we would immediately be defining success. On that, as a community within and a world looking from the outside in, have radically different opinions.
[19:30] <troy_s> vish: Sadly, as part of that 'culture' thing, those that value it try to seek out its history. Those that don't... don't.
[19:30] <troy_s> vish: There was an archives section up on the Wiki at one point.
[19:30] <troy_s> vish: It would have been nice to have more of that information aggregated.
[19:31] <thorwil> still exists
[19:31] <troy_s> thorwil: You lurker you.
[19:31] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives
[19:31] <troy_s> thorwil: Oh wow... that's fantastic.
[19:31] <vish> he just has loads of wikifu ;p
[19:32] <troy_s> vish: He does. He is a wikifreak.
[19:32] <troy_s> vish: So is it correct that Mat T is gone now?
[19:32] <thorwil> and i hate the wiki
[19:32] <vish> troy_s: seems so...
[19:32] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL. You have likely gone from 'oh this is tolerable' to 'oh this is a job' at that point.
[19:32] <thorwil> troy_s: exactly
[19:33] <troy_s> woutervddn: So you still haven't suggested what you would do with the keys to the kingdom and why. I'm still interested to hear it. I don't want you to be defensive either. I am curious as to what you would say.
[19:33] <thorwil> a problem independent of the tool is that people ignore most of what's there, anyway
[19:33] <troy_s> thorwil: Some do.
[19:33] <woutervddn> if I had the keys.. that's hard to say...
[19:34] <thorwil> woutervddn: beware, troy_s only asks for answers so he can generate even more questions!
[19:34] <troy_s> thorwil: True that. I'm still trying to figure this out.
[19:34] <troy_s> vish: Any icon news?
[19:34] <woutervddn> so he's like  that anoying philosoraptor on 4chan?
[19:34] <troy_s> vish: I was saddened to hear that Canonical is worried about creating an icon set.
[19:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: Annoying yes. Not nearly as interesting.
[19:35] <vish> troy_s: yup.. they are still writing a spec and might call for concept submissions
[19:35] <troy_s> vish: Ugh.
[19:35] <woutervddn> troy_s: I'd probably do close to everything as it is done now..
[19:36] <vish> troy_s: they did try to commission the 'yellow icon' guy , but it looks like that dint goo too well
[19:36] <vish> go*
[19:36] <troy_s> woutervddn: And end up precisely where we are then?
[19:36] <troy_s> vish: Oh link!
[19:36] <vish> evaraldo?
[19:36] <troy_s> vish: Oh... Everaldo.
[19:36] <thorwil> vish: yellow icon guy?
[19:36] <vish> yup,  Everaldo.
[19:36] <troy_s> vish: Yeah I think he has moved on. There is a fascinating story there to be certain. He was spurned by the culture I think.
[19:36] <woutervddn> But I won't put on my website: "get involved, join the artwork team" when I think it is a worthless group with no future..
[19:37] <troy_s> vish: Commissions don't build a culture. Without a culture, the chances you will attract folks that give a damn _and_ happen to have skills to execute is about zero.
[19:37] <troy_s> vish: I know we all like to think (foolishly) that this is about money. It isn't.
[19:37] <thorwil> woutervddn: why do you think much of the activity of late has been about wallpapers for xubuntu and edubuntu and lubuntu?
[19:38] <troy_s> vish: Money can certainly facilitate something, but it can't bring passion and dedication.
[19:38] <vish> troy_s: nothing official i believe, but it was more evaraldo tweeting that he had meetings with Canonical and stuff..
[19:38]  * thorwil can't buy things from his passion
[19:38] <woutervddn> thorwil, why is that?
[19:39] <vish> i mean, nothing officially announced..
[19:39] <thorwil> woutervddn: because it's a case of the community for the community
[19:39] <vish> troy_s: they probably dint like the concepts he offered
[19:39] <troy_s> vish: Odd that. ;)
[19:39] <troy_s> vish: You are only as good as your creative director.
[19:39] <vish> lol!
[19:40] <woutervddn> thorwil, so you are saying that..
[19:40] <troy_s> vish: No matter... icons are dead. It blows me away that we are a decade behind with our thinking.
[19:40] <troy_s> vish: A FULL decade.
[19:40] <vish> woutervddn: Xubuntu dint even know until this cycle that there was an artwork team.. ;)
[19:41] <troy_s> vish: That's because no one sticks around long enough with these projects to carry a torch apparently. And if they do, they certainly don't set up infrastructure to pass it on and disseminate the information.
[19:41] <thorwil> woutervddn: not having canonical in the equation gives us control. or them, but those them are just other like us
[19:41] <woutervddn> vish: what?
[19:41] <troy_s> That rather lively debate about contests on the LibreOffice mailing list would probably be "GREAT IDEA" if it weren't for two of the old schoolers that said "Uh no, we tried it and it stunk"
[19:41] <vish> troy_s: yea. they have Unity to build upon, they can do a lot of interesting work.. they have hired the compiz developer..  but not sure what will result..
[19:42] <troy_s> vish: Vision first.
[19:42] <troy_s> vish: It ain't there.
[19:42] <vish> :)
[19:42] <woutervddn> thorwil well isn't that a shame?
[19:42] <troy_s> vish: You can't build a building without a blueprint.
[19:42] <troy_s> vish: If there is a blueprint, it is pretty poorly communicated or trapped in someone's head as "I have a blueprint, I swear it, you all just need to be patient."
[19:42] <thorwil> troy_s: that vote-for-a-logo thing reared it's ugly head again just recently. there must be an army of ignorant people out there
[19:42] <vish> woutervddn: yup.. Xubuntu leads dealt with artwork on their devel mailing list and dint know about the artwork team.. I mentioned it to them and then they joined here and now work is going on..
[19:43] <troy_s> thorwil: Well... it's a new concept. It might take time.
[19:43] <vish> DEMOCRACY!!!
[19:43] <troy_s> thorwil: Those two people on the LibreOffice list that voiced their _experience_ are invaluable. Developers that say "Wait, it didn't work out that way"
[19:43] <troy_s> I mean seriously... just go to 99designs and see how all of this fantastic group sourcing is working.
[19:44] <thorwil> troy_s: when Mark contacted me about a potential job, he asked me for my "vision of desktop linux" or something like that
[19:44] <troy_s> Sadly, while almost all of it is infinitely better than the "I'm not an artist or anything but here is my wallpaper" attempts, it is still a far cry from anything even close to what the likes of Nintendo, BMW, etc. are doing.
[19:44] <vish> ha, LibO !
[19:44] <thorwil> i would think who got that job must have had one, too
[19:44] <woutervddn> thorwil, if we can only do things if we remove canonical from the equation, then why are we carrying the first U in our name?
[19:45] <troy_s> thorwil: It's called Unity.
[19:45] <vish> thorwil: this was back when?
[19:45] <troy_s> woutervddn: Because being aligned under a banner doesn't hurt I suppose.
[19:45] <thorwil> woutervddn: do i have to explain the differewnce betwenn ubuntu and canonical?
[19:45] <woutervddn> lol no, I understand the difference :p
[19:45] <thorwil> vish: 2008-07-04
[19:46] <troy_s> woutervddn: But I might agree with you too, to be honest. I think the numbers of people that come to the table with _actual skills_ and _actual passion_ are so few in the entire culture that segmenting is likely sad.
[19:46] <troy_s> woutervddn: And bear in mind that much of this 'new age mumbo jumbo' flies in the face of the old guard that seeks to keepjobs.
[19:46] <troy_s> woutervddn: Cycling from one free software project to the next.
[19:46] <troy_s> afk for a second.
[19:47] <woutervddn> thorwil: no, but you'll never get ubuntu without canonical in the equation..
[19:47] <woutervddn> or can you?
[19:48] <thorwil> troy_s: good thing you have such an high opinion of other groups, like the gnome and fedora folks. makes working across borders much easier
[19:48] <thorwil> woutervddn: a lot happens without and outside of the control of canonical
[19:49] <thorwil> maybe it's actually like a pair of leeches, sucking off each other ^^
[19:49] <troy_s> back
[19:49] <woutervddn> wb
[19:49] <woutervddn> lol
[19:49] <troy_s> woutervddn: I think worrying about Canonical is not worth a shred of time.
[19:50] <vish> woutervddn: FYI, Ubuntu is not forced to use Canonical work, but do we have a competent group providing an alternative?
[19:50] <troy_s> thorwil: It isn't really an opinion of worth, but rather the fact that it seems there are so few numbers.
[19:50] <troy_s> vish: Bingo.
[19:51] <troy_s> vish: Now see, _that_ is interesting because I don't think it has _ever_ been discussed.
[19:51] <woutervddn> indeed, and why is that vish?
[19:51] <troy_s> vish: It touches on something that you and I and thorwil may have talked about in passing.
[19:51] <woutervddn> btw, vish,thorwil,troy_s: in 1 sentence what is the job of the artwork team (as far as Ubuntu goes (not xubuntu,kubuntu,...))
[19:52] <vish> woutervddn: no job.. ;)
[19:52] <vish> seriously^
[19:52] <woutervddn> then why are you here?
[19:52] <vish> Kubuntu does not need anything, it uses everything from upstream..
[19:52] <troy_s> vish: And having been around the community for a while, there clearly isn't the ability to flesh out larger problems as the education (the concept that all of this is darn relative and shifts through time) is far too slight. At least, there were _not_ enough people to understand that way back when.
[19:52] <troy_s> woutervddn: There is no job. Output is secondary.
[19:53] <troy_s> woutervddn: Or at least it SHOULD be.
[19:53] <troy_s> (Wacky statement, I know)
[19:54] <troy_s> Yikes. Apologies. I killed the conversation.
[19:54] <coz_> welll food time for me   I will lurk
[19:54] <woutervddn> :p
[19:54] <vish> nah..
[19:55] <thorwil> woutervddn: there's only "The Ubuntu Artwork team and mailing list serves as a get-together for people who create artwork with and/or for Ubuntu (including the derivatives). Besides great visual design, our interests include the use of Free Software and open processes to get there."
[19:55] <woutervddn> now that was the answer I was looking for :p
[19:55] <thorwil> woutervddn: that statement came to be after several iterations and the insight gained over years
[19:56] <troy_s> vish: I wish that of the 1090 mailing list subscribers there would be response on questions like "What is the biggest success of the Ua team? Why? What is the biggest failure? Why?"
[19:57] <woutervddn> 1090 is way to big.. :s atleast if you look at what's done..
[19:57] <vish> heh.. Utopia!
[19:57] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'd be happy for less 'done' and more sincere conversation.
[19:57] <thorwil> lest close the list and make a new one, where you can only join, if you solve a special design captcha :}
[19:57] <troy_s> woutervddn: The 'done' is likely because of the audience that has been attracted.
[19:58] <woutervddn> +1 for thorwil
[19:58] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL.
[19:58] <vish> thorwil: we did try , but john doesnt allow us! ;p
[19:58]  * vish reminded of the Open letter! ;p
[19:58] <troy_s> Open Letter?
[19:59] <woutervddn> anyways so I can summarize like this: the artwork team is just an optional input line for ubuntu. We do what they ask us to do, although they ask most of the things to canonical.
[19:59] <troy_s> I still wonder how anyone feels _any_ right to speak on the list at all.
[19:59] <thorwil> woutervddn: not quite
[19:59] <woutervddn> how's that thorwil?
[19:59] <troy_s> woutervddn: Names.
[19:59] <thorwil> woutervddn: there's no ubuntu asking canonical
[20:00] <troy_s> woutervddn: The strength of a DaVinci, a Pollock, a Glaser, a Zapf, is in the person.
[20:00] <thorwil> woutervddn: there's only canonical shaping ubuntu
[20:00] <troy_s> woutervddn: Not a we.
[20:00] <vish> troy_s: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-design-n-reinvigorate-artwork-team , there was a part where i had mentioned that if the team has no purpose, we should close it. ;)
 woutervddn: FYI, Ubuntu is not forced to use Canonical work, but do we have a competent group providing an alternative?
[20:01] <thorwil> troy_s: don't forget things like the bauhaus, or the blue group, or any other important collective
[20:01] <troy_s> woutervddn: Facelessness (and the techniques that further that such as contests) have, arguably, gotten this culture _zero_. Less than 1% of anything is, while monumental given the roots, nothing in the greater scheme of influence.
[20:01] <troy_s> thorwil: Ok... complicate it damn you.
[20:01] <thorwil> :)
[20:01] <troy_s> thorwil: So much for golden rules. Again. :)
[20:02] <vish> troy_s: after that session, john wrote an open letter » https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2010-October/012427.html
[20:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Congrats on being perhaps the third person to ever say Bauhaus in this channel.
[20:02] <thorwil> now wouldn't the rock if *we* could have our own distributed bauhaus?
[20:02] <troy_s> thorwil: I'll up you an El Lissitzsky
[20:02] <troy_s> thorwil: It's a movement.
[20:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Movements are tricky as, from what I have gleaned, there is 'agreement' between members (see Cubist, see Surrealist, etc.)
[20:03] <troy_s> thorwil: With a united cause (see DIY or Constructivism / Suprematism)
[20:03] <troy_s> thorwil: With a _reason_. The why.
[20:03] <troy_s> thorwil: And you know what is sad Thor?
[20:04] <thorwil> of course you need agreement. but also open questions and some friction, or nothing happens
[20:04] <thorwil> troy_s: that few ever ask for the why
[20:04] <troy_s> thorwil: The _fuel_ for that movement is there. It has always been there. Instead though, we peddle 'Hey it costs nothing!" (even though competing operating systems are effectively free in Eurowestern terms)
[20:05] <troy_s> thorwil: The _libre_ component of Free Software is as powerful an artistic motivator as any.
[20:06] <troy_s> thorwil: The why. What does the Louvre look like filled with .PSDs? What does cinema look like filled with ProRes?
[20:06] <troy_s> vish: I wonder if we sat down and developed a huge constraint sandbox.
[20:06] <troy_s> vish: A theoretical project.
[20:06] <vish> oooh!
[20:07] <troy_s> vish: To create work on ... sort of a Dribbble of speculative fiction.
[20:07] <troy_s> (The good spec work, not the nasty)
[20:07] <troy_s> vish: I wonder what it would look like.
[20:07] <woutervddn> when I look at everything I can only think about 1 thing.. Clutter!
[20:07] <troy_s> woutervddn: The library or junk?
[20:08] <darkmatter> the library is junk ;)
[20:08] <woutervddn> junk..
[20:08] <vish> haha!
[20:08] <troy_s> woutervddn: Clutter is a means sometimes. Postmodernism is about clutter in some instances. Is Postmodernism junk? I'd hope the answer was no.
[20:08] <troy_s> woutervddn: Contextual weapons.
[20:09] <woutervddn> troy, for 1 sec, stop being abstract :p
[20:09] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'm not.
[20:09] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'm just saying that your belief of what you see as 'clutter' isn't shared and absolute.
[20:10] <troy_s> woutervddn: If you were to attempt to define it at all.
[20:10] <woutervddn> and I am aware of that, that's why I said > I <    was       > Thinking <    about it.. :)
[20:11] <woutervddn> I know you may not share my idea about that..
[20:11] <troy_s> woutervddn: I think part of it is precisely that quote of Godin's - seeking simplicity is something that those that don't care about do.
[20:11] <troy_s> woutervddn: Thinking about those things is damn healthy.
[20:12] <woutervddn> Today we face ourselves at a point where even those in this group start asking there-selves what the value of this group is.
[20:12] <vish> thorwil: if announcement is no mandatory, how would you suggest it be?
[20:12] <vish> not*
[20:13] <woutervddn> en yet I see this group having less consistency then the number pi..
[20:13] <thorwil> vish: *encouraged*
[20:13] <troy_s> Who cares?
[20:13] <troy_s> Why can't the sorts of discussions we just had appear on the list?
[20:13] <troy_s> Why not start by not caring?
[20:13] <coz_> good question
[20:14] <thorwil> lets post a log! muhahawha!
[20:14] <vish> yea!
[20:14] <troy_s> You too coz_
[20:14] <troy_s> coz_: Few know that you are one of the more talented artists around these parts.
[20:14] <troy_s> coz_: And that is a shame.
[20:14] <coz_> troy_s,  I appreciate that  ...
[20:14] <vish> thorwil: hmm.. something stronger than encouraged.. maybe "recommended" ?
[20:15] <coz_> troy_s,   you know...but sometimes..in all honesty I think " what the hell's the use"
[20:15] <troy_s> coz_: It also means tolerance though. We are all pretty intolerant at times. Perhaps after we have passed through the tunnel of crusty kurmudgeon, we arrive at a place with a little more tolerance.
[20:15] <vish> coz_: ++
[20:15] <thorwil> vish: "most highly recommended. by vish, no less!"
[20:15] <vish> ;p
[20:15] <troy_s> coz_: The use is exactly what we are talking about. We shouldn't care about icons.
[20:15] <troy_s> coz_: We should care about the people that create things and why. And celebrate them where individuals feel they should.
[20:15] <darkmatter> coz_: at least you're not turning into a jaded nihilist like me ;)
[20:16] <troy_s> That's too easy really.
[20:16] <thorwil> troy_s: tolerance might be poison
[20:16] <coz_> darkmatter,  not yet :)
[20:16] <vish> hei..! i'm considering being a nihilist  ;)
[20:16] <troy_s> thorwil: Make no mistake, I am all for chastising and ostracizing individuals of little merit and large vocal opinion that has no place.
[20:16] <woutervddn> lol
[20:16] <coz_> well on that note... I am going to take a break for sure...
[20:16] <coz_> I will log your conversation from my other system :)
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: One single individual in a crowd of like minded folks can disperse them.
[20:17] <troy_s> thorwil: And as such, that tolerance should not be treated lightly.
[20:17] <coz_> troy_s,  I like that one
[20:17] <thorwil> public announcement: finally a success for the ubuntu artwork effort: vish becomes a nihilist!
[20:18] <vish> \o/
[20:18] <troy_s> coz_: The good ideas of the folks with little merit, clue, passion, dedication, and understanding should be tolerated about as long as their dedication to the craft.
[20:18] <darkmatter> troy_s: you're being far to lenient ;D
[20:18] <troy_s> Where zero dedication to the realm is offered, zero tolerance should be shown.
[20:19] <troy_s> darkmatter: Well ... it is perhaps getting closer to a time of progress.
[20:19] <thorwil> "but but, they are all like little snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful in their own way!" "yeah, that's why we embrace the snowflakes warmly"
[20:19] <darkmatter> lol
[20:19] <woutervddn> tell that to the people who were in paris 3 days ago.. -_-
[20:20] <troy_s> woutervddn: Who was in Paris?
[20:20] <troy_s> It is something everyone that has spent a while contemplating this should understand.
[20:20] <woutervddn> a whole bunch of people spending there night in there car after it started snowing (12 hours earlier)..
[20:21] <troy_s> A _single_ attitude that is repugnant or intolerable to a given audience will scatter that audience.
[20:22] <thorwil> reminds me of the talk about sexism during free software related conferences. including uds, interestingly
[20:22] <troy_s> thorwil: Indeed.
[20:22] <woutervddn> wth..
[20:22] <thorwil> maybe ubuntu-artwork should function more like ubuntu-women? ^^
[20:22] <troy_s> thorwil: And in fact there is likely a good deal of overlap.
[20:23] <woutervddn> thorwil: how do they function?
[20:23] <troy_s> thorwil: I think the question of audience is core obviously. How do we attract an audience? Why do we want to? Do we value it? Why?
[20:24] <thorwil> woutervddn: i think it's aiming at acceptance and equality by highlighting a minority and asking for special treatment for it
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: This whole Utopian Absolutist Freedom agenda is effectively anarchy. It is a tribal society I don't care to exist in. I also don't believe in Totalitarianism either though. So striking that balance is something that I can't help but believe starts and ends with the culture. The _particular_ community.
[20:24] <thorwil> oh boy, what did i write there? ^^
[20:25] <troy_s> thorwil: Well... we are a culture in motion. We will continue that way unless drastic energy is put forth. Not in producing icons or wallpapers, but rather one of understanding that we seek to grow a particular type of culture.
[20:25] <darkmatter> thorwil: the truth? :P
[20:26]  * thorwil wonders how many kiddies troy_s could utterly confuse at once
[20:26] <troy_s> thorwil: That cruft is all byproducts.
[20:26] <thorwil> darkmatter: the fun is, while that could be seen as criticism, i actually think it can work out, long term
[20:26] <troy_s> thorwil: As you and I and _EVERY_ single person in this channel knows, _anyone_ can produce a wallpaper.
[20:27] <troy_s> It doesn't appear to be a goal. Nor should it.
[20:27] <woutervddn> he confuses me all the time.. :=s
[20:27] <troy_s> It is interesting the maturity that this channel has evolved into.
[20:27] <troy_s> woutervddn: Hang in there. You aren't the first to say that. You likely won't be the last.
[20:28] <thorwil> the immaturity, is interesting, too
[20:28] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'd also hope that you think for yourself. I could just as easily be a charlatan speaking with an secret ulterior motive.
[20:28] <troy_s> thorwil: It is progress I think.
[20:28] <troy_s> thorwil: Learnt the hard way.
[20:28]  * woutervddn wonders how many people allready hopped away from this group because of all the heavy talk of troy..
[20:29] <thorwil> yeah, actually troy_s is an fbi chill who only wants to keep us from reading wikileaks!!!
[20:29] <troy_s> thorwil: There is much to be said for the inability to teach anything. I certainly have learnt nothing except by those talented enough to lead me to learning for myself. Being taught is passive. Learning is active. I tend to believe in the latter.
[20:30] <troy_s> woutervddn: I'd celebrate if that were the case.
[20:30] <thorwil> woutervddn: i doubt this has ever been a large channel. and troy isn't on the list anymore since ... long
[20:30] <darkmatter> oh dear. someone mentioned wikileaks. time to bash my head into a wall
[20:30] <troy_s> woutervddn: I don't want everyone to engage in art and design discussions.
[20:30] <troy_s> woutervddn: Exclusion is critical.
[20:31] <thorwil> darkmatter: why do i have the feeling it wouldn't be the first time ;p
[20:31] <darkmatter> :P
[20:31] <troy_s> Anywho... damn fascinating chat. Thanks all. I must be tuning out.
[20:31] <troy_s> I wish the mailing list were more like this.
[20:32] <woutervddn> troy_s, then make it happen..
[20:32] <troy_s> woutervddn: It isn't my place. I have long since left that thing.
[20:32] <troy_s> woutervddn: Too many others of alternate minds that repulse me there. Or at least there were.
[20:32] <woutervddn> revolution never happens without one to clear the road..
[20:33] <woutervddn> well it might help if there was a clear mission statement for the artwork group..
[20:33] <woutervddn> that way everyone would know what was expected and unity would be among us..
[20:33] <troy_s> woutervddn: I think there is progress being made. It likely doesn't look like it to many. Getting to the bottom has probably fuelled the process.
[20:33] <troy_s> woutervddn: Mission statements, wikis, software, etc. do nothing. People.
[20:34] <woutervddn> people need leadership
[20:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: It's a coffee shop.
[20:34] <woutervddn> how's that?
[20:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: Probably agree, although things will carry on without it.
[20:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: It's a coffee shop. People of like minds will gravitate to each other.
[20:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: Think about the minds that have been gravitating to a given list or community.
[20:34] <woutervddn> everygroup, bigger then 6 needs a leading figur in some way..4
[20:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: And you might begin to see why I care so much about the culture.
[20:35] <troy_s> woutervddn: I don't know. Most people I know that do creative stuffs gather out of respect.
[20:35] <thorwil> woutervddn: how do vish, john and i not provide clear leadership, if you wait a bit for the dust to settle each time one of us takes a step? :)
[20:35] <troy_s> woutervddn: There is certainly a leadership component if there is a need, but that needs to come from respect too.
[20:36] <troy_s> thorwil: Because you folks are dull as dirt when I know you aren't.
[20:36] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL
[20:37] <troy_s> (Well at least two of you)
[20:37] <troy_s> (I can't say I know John very well at all)
[20:37] <woutervddn> @thorwil, I'm here for only a very short period of time.. I'm patient and can wait until the dust settles, but..
[20:37] <troy_s> Ok. Gone. Thanks again all.
[20:38] <woutervddn> I can't see how things look when the dust has settled because I have not seen it, yet..
[20:38] <thorwil> woutervddn: it was a joke regarding the friction between us. clear ... after the dust
[20:39] <woutervddn> jokes aren't clear on chats -_-'
[20:39] <darkmatter> that and a reference to thorwil missing his annual bath ;)
[20:40]  * thorwil doesn't bath at all, actually
[20:40] <woutervddn> anyways guys, I'm taking of..
[20:41] <woutervddn> got to study tomorrow (since i didn't do anything today..)
[20:41] <thorwil> cya
[20:41] <woutervddn> ciao..
[22:21] <coz_> hey all