[00:55] <kaushal> Hi
[00:55] <kaushal> I have Dell Laptop A860 Core2 Duo wishing to install Ubuntu 10.10
[01:04] <kaushal> is it better to go with 32 Bit or 64 Bit
[01:09] <hamitron> if you intend to install on a system with 4Gb or more ram, often better on 64 bit
[01:14] <hamitron> also need to check your cpu supports it
[01:15] <kaushal> I have lm flag in cpuinfo
[01:16] <kaushal> the Video RAM is shared in system Memory
[01:16] <kaushal> right ?
[01:17] <hamitron> I believe so
[01:17] <hamitron> I'd guess 32 bit is best looking at google
[01:18] <hamitron> but in terms of selecting 32/64 bit, shared video memory is of no worry
[01:18] <kaushal> ok
[01:18] <kaushal> hamitron: bit confused
[01:19] <hamitron> 32 bit is able to used upto 4Gb RAM
[01:19] <hamitron> use*
[01:19] <kaushal> at the moment I am running 32 bit OS
[01:19] <hamitron> I'd stick with 32 bit then
[01:19] <hamitron> :)
[01:19] <kaushal> so it shows only 3.4 Gigs RAM
[01:19] <kaushal> and 600mb is lost
[01:19] <hamitron> oh
[01:20] <hamitron> well, you will gain some memory by using 64 bit then
[01:20] <kaushal> yes
[01:21] <kaushal> since Video is consuming 256 mb ram
[01:21] <kaushal> cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | grep -i RAM
[01:21] <kaushal> so out of
[01:22] <kaushal> 3.4 Gigs 256 is used by Video RAM
[01:23] <hamitron> I've never been lucky enough to have that much RAM :)
[02:00] <n1md4> kaushal: aptitude search `uname -r`-bigmem I think...
[02:00] <n1md4> ...or the pae extension.
[02:02] <Azelphur> http://hacknmod.com/hack/100-software-based-arduino-simulator/
[02:02] <Azelphur> :O
[02:02] <Azelphur> if it doesn't have a Linux version I'm going on a killing spree
[02:03] <Azelphur> no Linux, failed.
[02:03] <hamitron> Azelphur: doesn't it destroy the point of the board?
[02:03] <dutchie> Azelphur: ah, just the man
[02:03] <Azelphur> hamitron: *shrug*
[02:03] <Azelphur> dutchie: I'm the man?
[02:03] <dutchie> Azelphur: did you say you had l4d2/steam running ok under wine?
[02:04] <Azelphur> yup, use it every day
[02:04] <dutchie> any fiddling to tell me about?
[02:04] <Azelphur> nothing besides fonts no
[02:04] <dutchie> fonts?
[02:05] <hamitron> mscore things?
[02:05] <Azelphur> dutchie: the default font that wine uses looks really bad
[02:05] <Azelphur> so you need tahoma.ttf and arial I think
[02:05] <Azelphur> I just copy and pasted all my windows fonts into wine :D
[02:05] <dutchie> i no longer have any windows fonts
[02:05] <Azelphur> but yea besides that it should still work
[02:06] <Azelphur> unless your using ATI
[02:06] <dutchie> thanks
[02:06] <dutchie> nope, intel
[02:06] <Azelphur> in which case...your screwed!
[02:06] <Azelphur> your very screwed.
[02:06] <Azelphur> nvidia > ati > intel a handy guide to Linux gaming
[02:06] <Azelphur> I've never got anything at all to work on intel xD
[02:06] <dutchie> yay
[02:06] <hamitron> :/
[02:06] <dutchie> this will be fun
[02:06] <Azelphur> indeed
[02:06] <Azelphur> try it by all means but I'm not hopeful
[02:07] <Azelphur> intel integrated graphics for gaming?
[02:07] <Azelphur> dutchie: why not pick up a cheap graphics card
[02:07]  * hamitron made his sister get nvidia graphics in her laptop so he can buy it off her later ;)
[02:07] <Azelphur> haha
[02:08] <dutchie> Azelphur: laptop \o/
[02:08] <Azelphur> ah \o/
[02:08] <hamitron> :\
[02:08]  * Azelphur made special care that his laptop had an nvidia card in it
[02:08] <dutchie> <-- glutton for punishment
[02:08] <Azelphur> hehe
[02:08] <Azelphur> Intel/ATI are best for desktop use because of the open drivers
[02:09] <Azelphur> but for gaming in wine, the nvidia proprietary drivers are pretty much the only way to go
[02:09] <hamitron> I am still tempted to get some intel one
[02:09] <Azelphur> try it though, it has been a while, maybe you'll get lucky
[02:09] <hamitron> just for reason Azelphur said
[02:09] <hamitron> :)
[02:09] <Azelphur> hehe
[02:09]  * dutchie is about to try it
[02:10] <hamitron> Azelphur: but about the arduino...
[02:10] <hamitron> surely the whole point is to build something with it?
[02:10] <Azelphur> true but it'd be good for prototyping or people that don't have the money to get an arduino
[02:11] <hamitron> guess so
[02:12] <hamitron> just didn't want you getting lazy ;)
[03:24] <mhad> ping
[03:24] <mhad> ping raax.com
[03:24] <mhad> exit
[06:21] <skybinary> what can i do to hide the cursor when using ffmpeg x11grab for a screen-cast ?
[06:41] <MartijnVdS> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/660613/how-do-you-hide-the-mouse-pointer-under-linux-x11
[06:42] <MartijnVdS> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/X11/contrib/utilities/unclutter-8.README :)
[06:45] <exobuzz> MartijnVdS, cept that doesnt seem to work when i tried it recently
[06:46] <exobuzz> could have been me though.
[06:48] <exobuzz> aah sorry it works. but i remembered wrong.. i had a different use case, where i wanted no mouse pointer whether its moved or not.
[07:02] <skybinary> thanks MartijnVdS , i found that link its doesnt seem to be an easy task to hide the cursor
[07:03] <MartijnVdS> easiest way is to screencast only part of the screen and keep the mouse outside that area :)
[07:03] <skybinary> it would be nice to have a compiz macro to hide the cursor, just like the one to show sparkles
[07:12] <skybinary> in windows i could replace all the cursor icons with blanks
[07:13] <skybinary> i just tested using another cursor theme and in the resultant video that theme is not recorded, just the basic pointer is there
[07:29] <MartijnVdS> Wayland should make this easier ;)
[08:13] <Phineas> i am back at this early hour
[08:18] <Phineas> everyone seems to be asleep this morning
[08:19] <Phineas> how come my vurtual box makes ubuntu run slowly sometimes
[08:28] <kaushal> can someone please guide me to install Flash on firefox 64 Bit, I am on 10.10 64 Bit
[08:32] <_H> every time I use skype I have to agree to the t&c again
[08:41] <Phineas> how come my vurtual box makes ubuntu run slowly sometimes
[08:46] <Phineas> fire fox sometimes says the server is taking too long to respond but when i press refresh it seems to work, is this a bug
[08:48] <Phineas> ?
[08:57] <Phineas> hi everyone
[08:58] <AlanBell> morning all
[08:59] <Phineas> AlanBell,  morning
[09:00] <ryan_> Good morning everyone
[09:00] <Phineas> ryan_,  morning
[09:01] <AlanBell> Phineas: you need to provide more information when asking questions
[09:01] <AlanBell> instead of " how come my vurtual box makes ubuntu run slowly sometimes"
[09:03] <Phineas> AlanBell,  how come my vurtual box makes ubuntu run slowly when the vurtual matchine is not doing much
[09:04] <AlanBell> I have a desktop/laptop with xGB of memory and processor Y it is running Ubuntu version foo and N virtualbox guest sessions, each running operating system bar and having bas GB of ram assigned. I timed a particular operation and it took this long with the VM running and that long with it stopped.
[09:04] <AlanBell> fill in the blanks
[09:05] <AlanBell> and what is the HDD light doing
[09:12] <alexcckll> Hi all...
[09:12] <alexcckll> Can anyone shed light on what is going on with Systems Updates at the moement?  I've tried twice - and had to abort as the "Check" phase failed twice...
[09:13] <Phineas> AlanBell,  I have a laptop with 80GB of memory and Intell pentimum dual-core cpu it is running ubuntu (the latest) and vurtual box ose guest sessions, each running operating system wondows xp  and having 993.0mb of ram (out of 1Gb of ram) assigned. I timed a particular operation and it took about 3mins with the vm running and 30secs with it stopped. the hdd light is blinking (fast)
[09:13] <alexcckll> After getting that to run successfully on third attempt - the "Install" phase had to be cancelled out (Obviously, i told my computer not to continue applying anything until the Update manager process runs cleanly)
[09:14] <Phineas> by memory thats hdd space
[09:14] <alexcckll> I had 36 updates to collect, pulled 35 of tem.. but the 36th stopped dead in its tracks... while waiting of rit to download
[09:15] <ryan_> phineas, can you run 'free -m' both when the vm is running and when it's stopped ? This will show whether the hdd activity is due to memory swapping
[09:15] <Phineas> ryan_,  no idea what free -m is
[09:16] <alexcckll> Why are my Systems Updates not coming down cleanly?
[09:16] <Phineas> alexcckll,  i notaced that
[09:16] <alexcckll> Has there been a major release?
[09:17] <ryan_> phineas, apologies/ You need to open a terminal window (accessories - terminal) and type free -m in that
[09:17] <Phineas> ryan_,  no vm running less then a seccond
[09:17] <alexcckll> Or should I attempt updates midweek rather than at the weekend?
[09:17] <AlanBell> Phineas: you have 1GB of physical ram and you assigned 993MB to the guest?
[09:18] <Phineas> AlanBell,  i think so
[09:18] <AlanBell> and you see no issue with that
[09:18] <ryan_> phineas, you could also try running vmstat 5 300. If you see large numbers under the si and so columns it means your ubuntu computer is swapping. It appears you have assigned too much vm memory (993 M) when your ubuntu machine only has 1000M
[09:18] <AlanBell> there are 1024 MB in a GB
[09:19] <ryan_> phineas, that would only leave ~ 18MB for your ubuntu os. Hence the use of the swap memory
[09:19] <AlanBell> you have left 31MB for the host
[09:20] <Phineas> ryan_,  during the vm running free -m took about a seccond
[09:20] <Phineas> AlanBell,  yeah and its 'skippy
[09:21] <AlanBell> Phineas: try changing the ram allocation to the guest to around 400MB
[09:21] <Phineas> AlanBell,  ubuntu that is, well sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't
[09:21] <Phineas> AlanBell,  forgive me i just booted the vm
[09:24] <Phineas> AlanBell,  hum thats is weird my copy of windows did not pass validation
[09:24] <ryan_> AlanBell, I do stand corrected. There are indeed 1024MB in 1 GB.
[09:24] <ryan_> phineas, when you run free -m, what does the total swap and used swap values say ?
[09:25] <Phineas> ryan_,  5 (no vm) 267 (with vm
[09:26] <ryan_> Sorry, what do the numbers 5 (no vm) 267 (with vm) refer to ?
[09:26] <dwatkins> GB vs GiB
[09:27] <Phineas> ryan_,  amount of swap in use
[09:27] <AlanBell> Phineas: if you give almost all your ram to the guest the host will have none left, does this make sense?
[09:28] <Phineas> AlanBell,  yes
[09:28] <AlanBell> so don't do that!
[09:28] <dwatkins> or get more RAM
[09:28] <ryan_> phineas, thanks for that. You should try to use less memory assigned to your vm guests. If you run 1 guest, I would suggest 512 MB. If you run 2 I would suggest 256MB each
[09:29] <alexcckll> I seem to recall when we used VMWare on Linux boxes at work - the boxes were really loaded for bear... and the guests had about 400Mb each
[09:30] <ryan_> phineas, that way your host ubuntu OS will have enough memory to run without resorting to writing to and from the swap partition. Swap partition access is always slower than physical memory access hence the performance issue you are seeing
[09:30] <Phineas> oh ok
[09:31] <ryan_> phineas, the ideal situation would be to put more RAM in the box because if you assign too low a memory to your guests then they may themselves start to swap. Does this make sense ?
[09:32] <Phineas> ryan_,  yeah but i only have 1GB of physical ram
[09:32] <alexcckll> Oh - also probably a good idea to have swap on a different spindle to the VMs themselves..
[09:33] <ryan_> phineas, as a starting point I would suggest trying to run 1 guest only with 512MB of memory assigned to it. Can you let us know if you see the same issue when you do this ?
[09:34] <alexcckll> Umm - folks... any light shed on the Update Manager issue this morning?
[09:34] <Phineas> ryan_,  will do when i get round to doing it
[09:34] <dwatkins> I upgraded my host to have 8 GB of memory just to be able to run more than 1 vm
[09:35] <ryan_> phineas, I've run windows xp guests with 512MB assigned in a host with 1GB a few years back so you should be fine
[09:35] <alexcckll> brb
[09:36] <ryan_> dwatkins. How many guests do you run with that 8GB ?
[09:36] <Phineas> oop everything just sped up when i hit shutdown
[09:37] <dwatkins> ryan_: I only just did the upgrade, but at least 2 or 3, I'm sure.
[09:37] <ryan_> Great. I bet you have a meaty processor to go with all that memory too ;o)
[09:38] <dwatkins> core i7
[09:39] <dwatkins> I work with server software and need to reproduce customer environments.
[09:45] <popey> morning ratfans
[09:56] <Phineas> popey,  morning
[09:58] <AlanBell> Phineas: did changing the ram allocation to the guest fix it?
[09:58] <Phineas> AlanBell,  havn't tried yet
[10:11] <AlanBell> issyl0 is off doing awesome stuff again http://rewiredstate.org/events/dotgovlabs_weekender
[10:17] <Phineas> 2 peope don't have a nick in here
[10:18] <AlanBell> what do you mean?
[10:20] <Phineas> AlanBell,  2 people are knowen is guest
[10:21] <AlanBell> yeah, that is fine
[10:24]  * Phineas has just found something he wants for his birthday in 3 days time
[10:25] <MartijnVdS> A pony?
[10:26] <Phineas> MartijnVdS,  nope, a Phineas and Ferb T-shirt and some other stuff
[10:27] <Phineas> which is cool
[10:29] <Phineas> MartijnVdS,  and nah i don't want a pony
[10:32] <nigelb> I think you folks will find this one funny :) http://notalwaysright.com/accentuating-the-problem/8851
[10:32] <issyl0> AlanBell: oh thank you :)
[10:34] <Apacheuk> has the UbuntuOneMusic store had an upgrade recently, seems very fast this morning?
[10:34] <MartijnVdS> Apacheuk: everyone who's on natty has broken u1ms.. maybe that's speeding it up? :)
[10:36] <Apacheuk> MartijnVdS, could be.... either way I like it :)
[10:37] <MartijnVdS> time for some more GT5ing :)
[10:37] <MartijnVdS> Any other PS3/PSN users in here?
[10:37] <nigelb> AlanBell: heh, we all know issyl0 is awesome ;)
[10:37] <Apacheuk> MartijnVdS: am trying to convince my wife I NEED a PS3 for Christmas
[10:38] <MartijnVdS> Apacheuk: It's one of the cheapest blu-ray players
[10:38] <MartijnVdS> Apacheuk: need more convincing? :)
[10:39] <Apacheuk> MartijnVdS: she does..... I already have a X360, Wii and a Blu-ray player.... any other suggestions?
[10:40] <Apacheuk> I have to say I love the Rhythmbox integration  to the notification area in 10.10
[10:41] <Phineas> Apacheuk,  i don't
[10:42] <Apacheuk> Phineas: reasons?
[10:42] <Phineas> Apacheuk,  don't use rythembox
[10:42] <Apacheuk> Phineas: OK, good reason :)
[10:44] <daubers> Morning
[10:45] <czajkowski> aloha
[10:45] <Phineas> orning
[10:45] <Phineas> morning
[10:47] <Apacheuk> hello
[10:47] <bigcalm> Hi
[10:47] <Phineas> hi
[10:53] <issyl0> nigelb: aww :)
[10:59] <daubers> Bah, python still building according to Ubuntu+1 :(
[11:03] <a931bw> who'sfrom UK?
[11:05] <Phineas> not me
[11:07] <Phineas> a931bw,  what do you want to know about the uk (even tho i don't live in the uk)
[11:08] <a931bw> registering somewhere and there is : half of your password will be sent by text message to this phone
[11:08] <a931bw> its UK only
[11:08] <a931bw> i though maybe someone could help
[11:09] <Phineas> a931bw,  well one of my friends lives in the uk
[11:09] <a931bw> could he help?
[11:09] <Phineas> a931bw,  yeah
[11:10] <a931bw> whats his name?
[11:10] <Phineas> a931bw,  nick?
[11:11] <a931bw> yeah
[11:11] <Phineas> a931bw,  he is Heinz_Doofensmirz (on irc
[11:12] <a931bw> he's not on?
[11:12] <Phineas> a931bw,  he will be soon
[11:13] <Phineas> there he is
[11:13] <Heinz_Doofensmir> m
[11:14] <Phineas> a931bw,  he is on now
[11:21] <Phineas> a931bw,  did he help
[11:21] <a931bw> yes
[11:22] <Phineas> a931bw,  good to here that
[11:23] <Phineas> l
[11:23] <Phineas> k
[11:59] <Phineas> i'm starting to run out of ideas on what to do on the computer]
[12:05] <Phineas> any ideas?
[12:05] <Apacheuk> Phineas: Have you tried sitting on it? :)
[12:06] <Phineas> Apacheuk, thats not fun
[12:06] <Apacheuk> erm....
[12:07] <Apacheuk> what do you normally do on it?
[12:08] <Phineas> Apacheuk,  youtube play games
[12:16] <jacobw> read up on an interesting subject on Wikipedia
[12:18] <Phineas> done that
[12:22] <daubers> Phineas: Triage some bugs
[12:23] <Phineas> tyiage
[12:29]  * daubers ponders a brie and ham snadwhich
[12:29] <UndiFineD> hug-a-bug :)
[12:56] <daubers> You know when you have a moment of sudden realisation about things... I've suddenly realised why I've struggled so much learning to program in various languages
[12:57] <daubers> really really wish the odd bits of tuition I had weren't of the order of "In VB you need to do this to make the GUI refresh" or "We do this here and this here to do this" and more of the "This is a class, it's a definition of an object"
[12:58] <daubers> Having now gone back and tought myself all those more abstract bits, every language seems to make a lot more sense
[13:07] <MartijnVdS> Meta-knowledge :)
[13:29] <AlanBell> teaching vs training
[13:33] <AlanBell> http://beta.ubuntu-uk.org/ page peel :)
[13:35] <popey> AlanBell: i think we should just make the site live
[13:35] <popey> and then ask people to help fix stuff :)
[13:42] <daubers> AlanBell: Psychodelic!
[13:43] <MartijnVdS> psychodalek!
[14:08] <daubers> HAH!
[14:08] <MartijnVdS> ?
[14:08] <daubers> Startup this weeks podcast, and from the other room I hear yelled "GEEK TIME" as the the song starts
[14:08] <MartijnVdS> haha
[14:14] <Azelphur> I'm having a problem with my joggler running ubuntu 10.10, http://pastebin.com/MWAUCjGy
[14:14] <Azelphur> look at line 832 to 840
[14:14] <Azelphur> it's remounting / as read-only, so I can't do much.
[14:14] <AlanBell> daubers: it is a bit loud
[14:15] <AlanBell> I failed in my various attempts to do it tastefully and neatly
[14:15] <AlanBell> so decided to go the other way and invite someone else to do it better
[14:15] <daubers> Heh :)
[14:18] <ali1234> Azelphur: drive has a bad block in the journal. tbh you're lucky it works at all...
[14:18] <_H> can I encrypt my home folder with aes256 and unmount it automatically on log out and mout at log in?
[14:18] <Azelphur> ali1234: so it's a physical fault?
[14:18] <MartijnVdS> _H: when you install Ubuntu there's an option to encrypt your home folder
[14:19] <_H> http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/52820
[14:19] <ali1234> yes
[14:19] <Azelphur> ali1234: it's a microsd in a usb reader, think it's card or reader?
[14:19] <Azelphur> or no idea
[14:19] <ali1234> card
[14:19] <_H> I saw this see and I don't know how to take away the encryption
[14:19] <Azelphur> righto
[14:19] <_H> I don't know the encryption standard
[14:19] <ali1234> end_request: I/O error, dev sda, sector 4067136 - this is the sector which failed
[14:19] <_H> that's why I want to use aes256
[14:20] <MartijnVdS> _H: "take away the encryption"? what do you mean>
[14:20] <_H> the home folder is encrypted
[14:20] <jpds> _H: Cool.
[14:20] <MartijnVdS> yes, and it's unlocked on login and re-locked when your last sessions logs out
[14:21] <_H> yes
[14:21] <MartijnVdS> so what's the problem?
[14:21] <_H> that's what I want to do. but I want to use encryption standard aes256
[14:21] <_H> yes it may be slower but its unbreakable
[14:22] <_H> nearly*
[14:22] <jpds> "unbreakable" - debatable.
[14:22] <daubers> Hah! "Very difficult to break" yes, unbreakable..... not convinced
[14:22] <MartijnVdS> _H: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/06/migrating-to-encrypted-home-directory.html
[14:23] <jacobw> unbreakable within practical paramteres :)
[14:23] <_H> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Advanced_Encryption_Standard
[14:23] <MartijnVdS> it don't know if you can set the cypher using ecryptfs-setup
[14:24] <_H> it'd get me 9 months in prison for not giving the codes over
[14:24] <daubers> _H: Things are only unbreakable until modern computing catches up in speed terms to brute force them.
[14:24] <MartijnVdS> apparently AES256 is the default when using encrypted home already
[14:24] <MartijnVdS> _H: Enough torture and you'll give them your password :)
[14:24] <daubers> The lead pipe attack almost always works :)
[14:25] <daubers> http://xkcd.com/538/
[14:30] <OmNomSequitur> Does Ubuntu 10.10 have TRIM support?
[14:30] <jpds> OmNomSequitur: Yes.
[14:37] <OmNomSequitur> Does Ubuntu 10.10 have DVD playback support?
[14:38] <BigRedS> I don't think it does 'out of the box'
[14:38] <BigRedS> you need to enable the non-free repositories
[14:38] <OmNomSequitur> Ah.
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> but it's easy to install
[14:38] <BigRedS> (free as in freedom - they don't cost anything, they just don't let you alter them)
[14:38] <OmNomSequitur> What about Blu-ray support?
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> I think it can play unencrypted DVDs out of the box
[14:38] <MartijnVdS> blu-ray is harder
[14:38] <BigRedS> I've no idea. I've still never seen a real-life blu-ray :)
[14:38] <OmNomSequitur> You don't have a PS3? :O
[14:39] <BigRedS> no, the only games console I've got is my mega drive
[14:39] <BigRedS> Mega Drive > PS3
[14:39] <BigRedS> or so I tell myself
[14:40] <domjohnson> Which linux commands would you say need a GUI frontend?
[14:40] <OmNomSequitur> You can't decode h.264 with a Mega Drive.
[14:40] <OmNomSequitur> Believe me, I've tried.
[14:40] <BigRedS> haha
[14:41] <OmNomSequitur> domjohnson, the answer would be "nothing", in theory.
[14:41] <OmNomSequitur> The GUI should just be a front-end for the CLI.
[14:45] <jacobw> I would have thought the GUI is more a tool for people who don't know exactly what they want to do, but the CLI is a tool for people who already know exactly what they want to do
[14:45] <jacobw> s/but/whereas
[14:48] <BigRedS> jacobw: there's several GUIs I use where I know exactly what I want to do
[14:50] <BigRedS> I don't believe the whole "GUIs are never as good as CLIs" line at all. There's no reason a GUI couldn't have the same advantages as a CLI
[14:50] <ali1234> yes there is
[14:50] <BigRedS> what's that reason?
[14:50] <ali1234> scripting a GUI is overcomplicated and requires the GUI to be specially coded in the first place
[14:51] <popey> pipes
[14:51] <popey> and redirection
[14:51] <popey> two reasons alone for not using GUIs
[14:51] <ali1234> right, you can't make a log from a GUI
[14:52] <AlanBell> gimp
[14:52] <ali1234> you can't explain to people how to use it without screenshots etc
[14:52] <AlanBell> and inkscape
[14:52] <popey> Text mode gimp
[14:52] <popey> Go north 10 pixels
[14:52] <popey> pen down
[14:52] <popey> actually, that's logo :)
[14:53] <AlanBell> there actually is a cli interface to gimp
[14:53] <ali1234> the choice between CLI and GUI is almost always an obvious one
[14:53] <ali1234> there is no way you can say one is better than the other, or even that they are equal
[14:53] <popey> i can understand GUI for creative tasks
[14:53] <BigRedS> You could do redirection in a GUI, though it'd probably be clumsy. But there's no reason you couldn't script a GUI in the same way as you script, say, Gimp or Office
[14:53] <popey> graphics and audio for example
[14:54] <ali1234> scripting in gimp and office is over complicated and bears to tresemblance to normal usage of the program
[14:54] <popey> well, indeed, the mac has Automator built in for exactly taht
[14:54] <ali1234> scripting the CLI is identical to using the CLI
[14:54] <BigRedS> well, basic scripting is
[14:55] <BigRedS> most people don't have loops in normal usage and the like. but if you're going to be scripting productively, you're going to be learning how to do that
[14:55] <ali1234> the other great thing about the CLI is it hasn't changed in 20 years, unlike UIs, which for some reason have to be totally redesigned every few years to look fashionable, and then everyone has to relearn it
[14:56] <BigRedS> but there's no reason a GUI wouldn't have a way of sticking a bunch of tasks in for, while, find etc. loops.
[14:56] <ali1234> you miss the point
[14:56] <ali1234> a GUI can only do that if the author of the program spent time to actually create it
[14:57] <BigRedS> yeah
[14:57] <BigRedS> as in, if they bothered to make a good GUI
[14:57] <ali1234> which 99.99% of developers will never do
[14:57] <popey> (they do on OSX) :)
[14:57] <BigRedS> I've not tried to say there *is* a good GUI. Just that the crap GUIs are crap because they're crap, not because they're GUIs.
[14:57] <ali1234> this just proves the point that it is easier to make a good CLI than to make a good GUI
[14:57] <BigRedS> But, say, AD is a pretty good GUI for what it's doing, and it has good text-based tools for when that's what you're after
[14:59] <ali1234> what is AD?
[15:00] <BigRedS> MS Active Directoryu
[15:00] <BigRedS> I say 'good', I mean 'workable'
[15:00] <ali1234> never used it
[15:00] <daubers> BigRedS: Urgh, AD's gui is horrid. Open Directories is much nicer
[15:01] <ali1234> closest i got to it was the permissions GUI on win2k, which is an abomination
[15:01] <BigRedS> OK, so that's a better ldap-y gui :)
[15:10] <ubuntuuk-planet> [Matt Daubney] Training vs Teaching - http://daubers.co.uk/2010/12/11/training-vs-teaching/
[15:18] <ali1234> the problem is that learning the theory of programming is extremely hard if you don't have anything to relate it to
[15:19] <BigRedS> yeah, I've had way more trouble getting the hang of oop than I should have done because I kept reading the theory and not just writing the code
[15:19] <ali1234> oop in particular is something that only really clicks when you have already encountered the problem it is designed to solve
[15:20] <BigRedS> yeah, that was my problem. Only about three weeks ago I basically looked up and went "Aha!", as it just made sense
[15:20] <BigRedS> that was awesome.
[15:20] <ali1234> if you learn the theory of oop and try to apply it without the necessary experience, you end up with code that is just as bad as if it did not use oop at all - with hundreds of pointless classes and lots of abstraction for no reason
[15:20] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it helps if you have someone around who can set a good example :)
[15:20] <MartijnVdS> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PrinciplesOfObjectOrientedDesign :)
[15:22] <ali1234> yeah see, that page does not actually teach you anything, it's just a bunch of complicated words...
[15:22] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: unless you start reading the linked pages
[15:22] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: things like "law of demeter"
[15:22] <ali1234> "Each responsibility should be a separate class, because each responsibility is an axis of change. "
[15:22] <ali1234> lol this is just meaningless nonsense
[15:22] <popey> that's just a jumble of words to me
[15:23] <MartijnVdS> It's "Model one thing in one class", but wordy
[15:23] <BigRedS> yeah, that's what I found. You just need to create some objects, fiddle with them, then stumble across soemthing that requires what you've learnt from teh fiddling
[15:23] <ali1234> right, why can't they just write that then?
[15:23] <BigRedS> repeatedly
[15:23] <BigRedS> which is approximately how I managed procedural programming
[15:23] <ali1234> is it perhaps because it's obvious?
[15:25] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: what about this guy's presentations then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEhu57pih5w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F72VULWFvc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlfLCWKxHJ0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FRm3VPhseI
[15:25]  * MartijnVdS learned a lot from those
[15:26] <ali1234> also to say "a class should model one thing" s not really useful
[15:26] <ali1234> because how do you define a "thing?"
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> explaining "Global state is best avoided" with "Running the test suite cost me $100" is good :)
[15:26] <ali1234> most "things" in the real world need several classes to model them
[15:26] <MartijnVdS> (credit card processing)
[15:27] <ali1234> if you take it to the logical extreme of each class only representing one "thing" then you might as well say don't use classes at all, just use int, float, char... because anything more complicated than those is more than one "thing"
[15:29] <ali1234> none of this stuff is the least bit useful if you don't know how to even write a simple program
[15:30] <MartijnVdS> SUre, but I thought we were talking about becoming a better programmer
[15:30] <MartijnVdS> nog becoming a programmer in the first place :)
[15:30] <MartijnVdS> not*
[15:30] <ali1234> no, we are talking about becoming a programmer in the first place
[15:32] <BigRedS> are we?
[15:32] <BigRedS> well, you
[15:32] <MartijnVdS> but that's the easy bit. Becoming a good one is the hard part :)
[15:32] <BigRedS> I'm not saying much
[15:32] <_H> my ubuntu desktop freezes often
[15:33] <ali1234> specifically i'm talking about this teaching-vs-training blog post by daubers, linked above ^
[15:34] <BigRedS> which is about him becoming a better programmer?
[15:34] <MartijnVdS> I thought it was.. :)
[15:34] <ali1234> "They were doing the training first in the hope it would teach you  something. What they should be doing is teaching you the concepts (all  the “meta”) and the[n] train you in the language."
[15:35] <ali1234> i posit that this is wrong, and that teaching theory of oop (for example) must happen after basic language training, otherwise it is just a lot of meaningless words
[15:39] <BigRedS> yeah, that makes sense
[15:39] <BigRedS> But I, and apparently MartijnVdS , thought we were talking about this in teh context of a programmer learning more programming
[15:39] <BigRedS> not someone new to programming
[15:39] <ali1234> not at all, no
[15:40] <BigRedS> Oh, well in that case I'm not sure anyone's disagreed with you yet
[15:40] <BigRedS> 'cause we've both been talking about something else :)
[15:40] <ali1234> except daubers :)
[15:41] <BigRedS> Oh yeah, we disagree on what daubers was talking about :)
[15:41] <BigRedS> _H: is there any pattern at all to the freezing? Only when particular apps are open, say?  What actually happens when it freezes? Does it ever unfreeze?
[15:49] <_H> BigRedS: http://paste.ubuntu.com/542305/
[15:49] <daubers> 15:35 < ali1234> i posit that this is wrong, and that teaching theory of oop (for example) must happen after basic language  training, otherwise it is just a lot of meaningless words
[15:50] <daubers> ali1234: In some cases true, but an argument by example....
[15:51] <matti> ;]
[15:51] <daubers> ali1234: At Uni (lat year this is) we where taught VB6. The university upgraded all the PC's in the suite we where using and could no longer get licences for VB6 so we we're given VB.net. 90% of the people in the group got completley lost as they had no idea about basic things like what an integer really is, or what a class really is. They where just following by example as they had had none of the "meta" stuff at all. If we'd had the meta stuff then it 
[15:52] <daubers> ali1234: In a lot of cases I can see it as a chicken and egg thing, but I think I mae the point in that we were given _none_ of the teaching stuff, just trained to use VB6. You need lots of teaching stuff and probably the same amount of the practical stuff as one without the other is meaningless
[15:53]  * daubers is not very good at making his points clear (and or coherant)
[15:53] <ali1234> i don't see how that could happen unless 90% of the people on your course were just cheating and copying the work from someone else
[15:54] <daubers> ali1234: It was a physics course and they'd thrown in some programming stuff at the end.
[15:54] <ali1234> physicists don't know what an integer is?
[15:54] <daubers> Most people just bumbled along extending examples
[15:54] <daubers> ali1234: Funnily enough, some physics students (in some unis) don't
[15:54] <dutchie> the physicists at my university were being made to write C in their first term :)
[15:55] <dutchie> but then, oxford
[15:55] <daubers> dutchie: Yes, but you're at Oxford....
[15:55] <daubers> dutchie: I made the argument at Uni that VB is a stupid language for scientific stuff
[15:55] <ali1234> most people's first experience of programming is modifying an example program... it's the first thing i do when kicking the tyres on a new language...
[15:55] <dutchie> it wouldn't have been my first thought, no
[15:55] <daubers> But got ignored as everything else was "too difficult for the average student"
[15:55] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: that and Hello World :)
[15:56] <ali1234> nobody starts by writing hello world, they start by modifying hello world
[15:56] <daubers> ali1234: Mine is normally either a book or a website.. then playing with hello world
[15:56] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: copying it from the textbook ;)
[15:56] <ali1234> you can't really learn theory without this experience
[15:57]  * jacobw just copied Hello World from a Java textbook
[15:57] <daubers> ali1234: No, but you're not really learning anything about how things work. You're learning how to modify someone elses program
[15:57] <ali1234> and what is wrong with that?
[15:57] <daubers> which is why most people struggled in moving to a slightly different language
[15:58] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: it's a start, but it's not a complete (self-)education :)
[15:58] <daubers> ali1234: Interestingly the 10% who didn't struggle did a CS module in the basic "meta" stuff of computing that involved no programming
[15:58] <ali1234> correlation is not causation
[15:59] <ali1234> they probably already knew it all and just did that module as a skive
[15:59] <daubers> ali1234: No, but it can be used as some evidence towards that end
[16:01] <daubers> ali1234: THere is also the old adage that everyone learns differently. I learn best by understanding what's going on, rather than just how to do something
[16:01] <ali1234> to make a car analogy, this is rather like going to your first driving lesson and getting a lecture on organic chemistry and how the internal combustion engine works
[16:02] <daubers> ali1234: Bit of an extreme car lesson. My first driving lesson did involve a short lecture on how the clutch connects to the gear box and what a syncromesh does though
[16:05] <MartijnVdS> same for me
[16:06] <MartijnVdS> also, "power steering explained" was a nice lesson :)
[16:06] <daubers> Yeah, that was quite useful too
[16:07] <ali1234> how is it useful?
[16:07] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: if you know how it works, you know how it breaks
[16:07] <ali1234> does it help you in any way if, for example, you need to drive a car which is left-hand drive?
[16:08] <daubers> ali1234: No, but it is useful if you go from a car that has no power steering to one that does. Lets you know what to expect
[16:08] <MartijnVdS> same with gearboxes
[16:08] <daubers> ali1234: Was also quite useful when my astra power steering went and I managed to figure out what was wrong by working up from the principles given
[16:09] <ali1234> don't get me wrong, i'm not saying this should not be taught
[16:09] <ali1234> but imagine if they made you learn all this stuff before they even let you get in a car
[16:09] <ali1234> or, more aptly, if they tried to explain it to you before you had even *seen* a car
[16:09] <daubers> ali1234: Right, which is why you get that information before doing that specific bit
[16:10] <daubers> ali1234: Gearbox/syncromesh stuff really helped me get clutch control right, and I was taught that before starting the engine
[16:10] <MartijnVdS> Someone could teach it to a passenger while driving though
[16:10] <ali1234> well you can;t start the engine if you don't know how to use the clutch, it will just stall
[16:10] <MartijnVdS> that would be even better
[16:11] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: some starter motors are strong enough to start through handbrake and first gear :)
[16:11] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: I've seen the wall
[16:11] <ali1234> lol
[16:11] <MartijnVdS> (someone in my street did that)
[16:11] <ali1234> not in learner cars presumably
[16:12]  * daubers needs to get the thud board out
[16:12] <MartijnVdS> oh sure, but those tend to have two sets of pedals over here, so the instructor can avoid mistakes like that
[16:12] <daubers> Does mean moving the telle :(
[16:12] <daubers> MartijnVdS: Dual controls are scary
[16:12] <MartijnVdS> daubers: They
[16:13] <MartijnVdS> ahem
[16:13] <daubers> MartijnVdS: Dads car has those, and I'm terrified of driving it with a passenger in case they do the "Side seat driver" thing
[16:13] <MartijnVdS> I think they're mandatory here (for learner cars)
[16:14] <daubers> MartijnVdS: No idea, the old mans a driving instructor and has them. I think they're an insurance condition .... not sure about legally mandatory though
[16:14] <MartijnVdS> daubers: .nl might have different rules
[16:14] <ali1234> they should put them on all cars
[16:14] <ali1234> for the lulz
[16:15] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: and in the back as well
[16:15] <MartijnVdS> (imagine the taxis)
[16:16] <ali1234> natch
[17:26] <Azelphur> what should I use to securely share a single file with one client on LAN? :p
[17:27] <Azelphur> atm I keep pushing the single file with scp, but that's kinda lame
[17:28] <brobostigon> afternoonings all.
[17:29] <Azelphur> afternoonings :)
[17:29] <Azelphur> brobostigon: you just missed my question, what should I use to securely share a single file with one client on LAN? :p
[17:30] <brobostigon> Azelphur: define share? do you jutwant copying, or full blown synchronisation?
[17:30] <Azelphur> it's a sync thing
[17:30] <Azelphur> it's so my PC can pass info to conky on my alarm clock :)
[17:31] <brobostigon> so you want both to be equalallthe time?
[17:31] <Azelphur> yup
[17:31] <Azelphur> atm I scp but it's kinda slow
[17:32] <brobostigon> maybe you could setup rsync to automaticlly keep both ends equal?
[17:32] <brobostigon> !info rsync
[17:32] <Azelphur> I was thinking a simple network share type thing would be more sensible
[17:32] <Azelphur> like nfs or something
[17:34] <brobostigon> will be more setup though, thanthe basic sshfs or scp you have already done.
[17:34] <Azelphur> indeed, but faster
[17:35] <brobostigon> tradeoff, energy - time.
[17:35] <Azelphur> hehe
[17:35] <Azelphur> brobostigon: did you see my Linux powered alarm clock btw?
[17:35] <brobostigon> Azelphur: sorry, no.
[17:35] <Azelphur> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/Photos/December%202010/IMG_20101208_021003.jpg :D
[17:38]  * BigRedS wants one
[17:38] <brobostigon> Azelphur: a joggler with ubuntu, :)
[17:38] <Azelphur> indeed, and conky :D
[17:38] <Azelphur> makes a good little alarm clock
[17:39] <Azelphur> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/November%202010/2010-11-12-215806_800x480_scrot.png there's the activity log in action :P
[17:41] <BigRedS> that font would irritate the crap out of me within about ten minutes, though
[17:43] <Azelphur> BigRedS: yea, the font looks cool but isn't that practical, I need to change it
[17:49] <dogmatic69> does anyone know why, every second / third time i install or upgrade something it installation hangs
[17:49] <dogmatic69> this happens with shell and the update manager
[17:49] <dogmatic69> then i cant install anymore because the files are all locked
[17:59] <BigRedS> dogmatic69: what's the 'something'?
[18:01] <dogmatic69> BigRedS: "anything"
[18:02] <dogmatic69> general updates
[18:02] <dogmatic69> random programs
[18:02] <dogmatic69> been happening since i installed 10.10
[18:02] <BigRedS> Oh, so not OS upgrades
[18:02] <dogmatic69> np
[18:02] <dogmatic69> actual apps
[18:02] <BigRedS> Whereabouts in the installation does it hang? Same place every time?
[18:04] <dogmatic69> today its ssh
[18:05] <dogmatic69> http://pastebin.com/Sar160cL
[18:05] <BigRedS> yeah, but how far through? Are you doing this in a terminal or through a gui app?
[18:05] <BigRedS> aha!
[18:05] <dogmatic69> had to delete the lock files quick
[18:05] <BigRedS> is it always at the unpacking stage?
[18:06] <dogmatic69> i think so
[18:06] <BigRedS> does an `apt-get upgrade dpkg` work?
[18:06] <dogmatic69> last time it was suck unpacking header files
[18:06] <popey> is your cpu overclocked?
[18:06] <BigRedS> er, apt-get install dpkg
[18:08] <dogmatic69> popey: it is :/
[18:08] <brobostigon> man made curry, i reckon, :)
[18:08] <dogmatic69> just a little though
[18:10] <dogmatic69> BigRedS: no it does not
[18:10] <dogmatic69> same thing
[18:10] <bigcalm> While using tar, how might I deflate an archive without preserving the tree?
[18:11] <popey> dogmatic69: wind down the overclocking
[18:11] <dutchie> bigcalm: what do you mean deflate? do you have a tar archive, or do you want to createone all in one go
[18:11] <dogmatic69> :(
[18:11] <popey> dogmatic69: to test, if that "fixes" it then you know the problem
[18:11] <dogmatic69> ye
[18:11] <popey> hardware problem, not software
[18:11] <dogmatic69> well never had an issue on 9.04
[18:12] <bigcalm> dutchie: I have a .tar.bz2 that I need to unpack/deflate. But I want all of the files to end up in one directory, not in a preserved tree
[18:12] <dogmatic69> *10.04
[18:12] <popey> still, try it and see
[18:12] <dogmatic69> only since using 10.10
[18:12] <dutchie> bigcalm: there is an option to do arbitrary sed transforms on the paths of the files as it's being extracted
[18:12] <dogmatic69> if it is the issue im getting better ram
[18:12] <BigRedS> bigcalm: deflation's normally creating the tar file
[18:12] <dogmatic69> brb
[18:13] <bigcalm> Sorry, inflate then :)
[18:13] <BigRedS> haha
[18:13] <BigRedS> I remember there being an option, but I just failed to find it in man tar
[18:14] <dutchie> bigcalm: --transform or --xform
[18:16] <bigcalm> dutchie: neither turn up in the tar man page
[18:17] <dutchie> bigcalm: they are on my man page
[18:18] <bigcalm> I was using google'd pages
[18:18] <bigcalm> Ok, I still don't know how to use sed :)
[18:19] <dutchie> sed also has a man page
[18:20] <bigcalm> Bored now
[18:20] <dutchie> i suspect some way to get it to call basename would be easiest unless you fancy twisting your mind with regexps
[18:20] <dogmatic69> popey: it worked
[18:20] <dogmatic69> how you figured that out, idk
[18:23] <dutchie> bigcalm: alternatively, untar it then "find . -type f -print0 | xargs -0 mv -t ."
[18:24] <dutchie> might be worth checking for unique filenames though...
[18:24] <bigcalm> Ta
[18:24] <bigcalm> Nope, I want to overwrite them
[18:28] <popey> dogmatic69: :)
[18:28] <dogmatic69> mad skills
[18:38] <sam_010203> is there anyway to have ubuntu in the "arabic hebrew" layout but without changing the language...?
[18:39] <n3o> i dunno but i visited israel recently man, and hebrew well looks like alien writing man thought i was entering district 9 at the airport i swear ;). looks like a cool language though
[18:41] <BigRedS> sam_010203: which bit of the layout are you after? (I can't help but I'm intrigued :)  )
[18:43] <AlanBell> sam_010203: you mean rtl?
[18:44] <sam_010203> AlanBell,  yeah
[18:44] <sam_010203> i know i can change it all myself  but its a bit of a pain to move it all. lol
[18:45] <AlanBell> sam_010203: have you tried changing the language?
[18:45] <AlanBell> there isn't that much actually translated
[18:45] <sam_010203> AlanBell,   i did but hebrew is all pretty much in hebrew and my hebrew isnt that good.  or there is arabic, and i dont understand a word.
[18:46] <AlanBell> I tried both and some others when testing the Ubuntu font
[18:47] <sam_010203> the hebrew font looks nice.    just so many words i dont understand.
[20:00] <czajkowski> I offically hat epacking
[20:00] <czajkowski> *hate packing
[20:00] <BigRedS> Yeah, I've stopped unpacking when I move
[20:00] <BigRedS> 'cause I know I can't be arsed to pack it up again when I move again
[20:01] <czajkowski> this is just for going home
[20:01] <czajkowski> won't be in this place for 3 weeks
[20:01] <BigRedS> Oh, that sort of packing?
[20:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> THREE WEEKS!
[20:01] <BigRedS> I find that really easy. But I'm both male and simple :)
[20:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> what about work czajkowski?
[20:01] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: in bath for a week working
[20:01] <TheOpenSourcerer> Ah
[20:01] <BigRedS> $days * (t-shirt, trousers, pants, socks) in a bag
[20:01] <czajkowski> then working from home in ireland thanks to a nice understanding boss
[20:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[20:02] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: cost of flights went up closer I stayed over here to xmas
[20:02] <czajkowski> and the mothership would flip if I didnt go home
[20:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> We have a paddy stying with us over Christmas.
[20:02] <TheOpenSourcerer> wife's sister's hubby.
[20:03] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: your sister in laws hubby
[20:03] <czajkowski> :)
[20:03] <TheOpenSourcerer> yeah.
[20:03] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: have the drink stocked up
[20:04] <TheOpenSourcerer> He's not much of a drinker actually. More into cycling and fitness stuff.
[20:04] <czajkowski> you sure he's Irish
[20:05] <TheOpenSourcerer> Right - off to put kiddies to sleep then drink with the missus and write christmas cards.
[20:16] <YaManicKill> hey geeks! hows it going
[20:17] <freesitebuilder> geeks? where? who let 'em in?
[20:17] <YaManicKill> heh :-P
[20:19]  * kvarley just bought the Winterwarmer package! Hoodie and cup! :)
[20:22] <OmNomSequitur> Each package comes with a lock of Shuttleworth hair.
[20:22] <popey> heh, good luck with that
[20:22] <popey> last time I saw him it was very short
[20:23] <popey> maybe it was all cut off to go in the package!
[21:04] <nperry> Ubuntu one music store download goes toward uk charts, doesn't it?
[21:07]  * Nafallo listens to the latest podcast, and feels the dns discussion is very very old news ;-)
[21:07] <Nafallo> people had seperate root servers online at least 5-6 years ago when I saw it :-)
[21:08] <Nafallo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root
[21:08] <gord> number of times gord fell over on the ice: 1. number of times gord fell over on his hard wood floor in wool socks, countless :(
[21:18] <czajkowski> hmmm may have been wise to test vpn earlier on in the week rather than today
[21:18] <BigRedS> Nah, it'd only have broken in the interim that way
[21:21] <Nafallo> popey: your home router thingie doesn't do .lan or something? :-)
[21:35] <_H> I wish to down load a video flash from a site how can I do this?
[21:35] <Flashtek> _H: wget ?
[21:36] <_H> gets the whole page
[21:36] <_H> not the video
[21:36] <_H> I want/need the video alone
[21:40] <suprengr> _H: http://tinyurl.com/2wyavxv     ???
[21:43] <_H> suprengr:  takk but http://svtplay.se/v/2264028/wikirebels___the_documentary?cb,a1364145,1,f,-1/pb,a1364142,1,f,-1/pl,v,,2264028/sb,p118750,1,f,-1
[21:43] <_H> won't support it
[21:45] <jacobw> _H: use the video downloader extention for Firefox
[21:47] <ali1234> _H: you can try this also: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/ffcache.py
[21:47] <ali1234> go to video page, pause video, wait for it to fully buffer, then run the script and look for files of type FLV
[21:48] <ali1234> or "Macromedia Flash Video" etc
[21:49] <awilkins> I had a shell script somewhere
[21:49] <ali1234> ^ that's a nice easy GUI
[21:49] <awilkins> You used to be able to copy them out of /tmp
[21:49] <ali1234> yeah i think mine checks /tmp too
[21:50] <ali1234> and it scans using the file command
[21:50] <awilkins> Now it deletes the temp file as soon as the video starts
[21:50] <awilkins> So you have to copy them out of the kernel file handles list
[21:50] <ali1234> mine still seems to work for youtube, at least some videos
[21:50] <ali1234> heh, that's a good idea, scan /proc too
[21:50] <ali1234> i might add that...
[21:50] <awilkins> Find the ones that are from libflashplayer.so
[21:51] <_H> ahh takk
[21:52] <_H> tack så mycket
[21:54] <awilkins> ali1234, Next time I'm at my other machine, I'll send you my shell script that does just that and copies the file to /Video
[22:00]  * jacobw is sending back a faulty laptop :(
[22:09] <penguin42> jacobw: What's up with it?
[22:11] <jacobw> it takes about 20 hours to charge and has a wireless range of about 5ft
[22:11] <jacobw> probably a power problem, not enough power getting to battery or the wireless card
[22:14] <penguin42> weird
[22:34] <jacobw> unfortunately, the sellers return policy seems to wash their hands of faulty products not diagnosed as faulty within 7 days of purchase, i purchased on last sunday (5th)
[22:34] <Neil3> jacobw, i think trading standards would have something to say about that
[22:34] <Neil3> purchase of goods act etc?
[22:34] <jacobw> so unless i can get it diagnosed as faulty tommorow it is down to the manufacturer
[22:35] <Neil3> i believe the seller is responsible
[22:35] <Neil3> 7 days = crap
[22:36] <jacobw> i may have to go down that route :(
[22:36] <Neil3> jacobw, http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/DG_182935
[22:37] <zleap> jacobw, surely its 7 working days
[22:38] <jacobw> i would hope so zleap, but http://www.saveonlaptops.co.uk/returns doesn't specify
[22:38] <maco> theyre not even accounting for shipping time?
[22:38] <zleap> hmm
[22:38] <zleap> i think consumer law can overrule their own rules if their rules are wrong
[22:39] <jacobw> yes, there is no way that i am keeping this faulty laptop
[22:40] <maco> im surprised you have to take it somewhere for diagnosis
[22:40] <maco> id figure just telling them "it doesnt work like it should" would count
[22:41] <zleap> by not working does that mean won't turn on,  get error beeps other error
[22:41] <jacobw> i don't have to take it anywhere, i need the fault confirmed by the maufacturers technical support, and then i need to pass that reference number on to the seller
[22:41] <maco> zleap: scroll up
[22:41] <zleap> ok
[22:41] <zleap> sorry
[22:41] <maco> oh wait you joined later
[22:41] <zleap> yeah
[22:41] <maco> zleap: he said it takes 20hr to charge
[22:41] <zleap> ouch
[22:41] <maco> and the wireless only works within 5ft of the AP
[22:41] <jacobw> it takes 20 hours to charge and wifi range is ~5ft
[22:48] <jacobw> at least saveonlaptops has a contact number so i can phone them up and frighten a representative
[22:49] <ali1234> doesn't sound like a fault to me
[22:49] <ali1234> just sayin...
[22:50] <zleap> could be a faulty battery if its taking 20 hrs to charge
[22:51] <ali1234> "not enough power" would make it not work at all...
[22:51] <jacobw> why not? the charge time is stated 2.5 hours in the specifications and the range of is 802.11n 100's of feet
[22:51] <jacobw> a faulty battery would still be a fault
[22:51] <ali1234> 5ft wireless range could be caused by any number of things, not least interference and incompatible equipment
[22:51] <ali1234> wireless is basically a mess and never works right, in my experience
[22:52] <ali1234> have you tried charging while both switched on and switched off?
[22:52] <ali1234> because both can run at a different rate depending on how the hardware works
[22:52] <jacobw> it has an intel wifi link 5100 exactly the same as my laptop, it won't see wireless networks in same positions as my laptop will
[22:52] <jacobw> yes, i have ali1234
[22:53] <jacobw> and on different power outlets
[22:53] <ali1234> big deal, i have two identical wireless cards here, one randomly drops packets on linux, the other works fine...
[22:53] <ali1234> both atheros, supposed to be well supported
[22:53] <jacobw> well one of them must be faulty
[22:53] <ali1234> maybe, it sure is an odd fault though
[22:56] <zleap> when you tell them its faulty let them know what you have done to help diagnose, so charged with laptop on and off
[22:56] <zleap> which you say you have done
[22:57] <jacobw> yeah, it will be a fustrating phone call because they'll be asking me to do all the things i've already done
[23:00] <jacobw> *sigh* i'll deal with it on Monday
[23:00]  * jacobw goes back to studying his Java textbook
[23:01] <ali1234> can anyone recommend a good 23" monitor?
[23:01] <MartijnVdS> dell monitors are nice
[23:01] <ali1234> i want one that doesn't have a huge horrible bezel on it
[23:01] <ali1234> i don't really care about anything else :)
[23:01] <MartijnVdS> dell again :)(
[23:02] <daubers> jacobw: Why java ooi?
[23:05] <ali1234> MartijnVdS: any real difference between the ultrasharp and profession series?
[23:07] <ali1234> U2311H looks like the one for me...
[23:07] <MartijnVdS> no idea
[23:07] <ali1234> ultrasharp seems to have better colour gamut
[23:07] <ali1234> so better colour reproduction
[23:07] <MartijnVdS> we have those at work
[23:07] <jacobw> daubers: because i want to get a degree in computing from the open university, and they teach java
[23:07] <MartijnVdS> they're great
[23:08] <ali1234> ah, the ultrasharp has HDMI and usb 2.0 x4 as well
[23:08] <ali1234> seems like overall pretty nice monitor
[23:08] <jacobw> daubers: also, because out of the c++ book and the java book i ordered from amazon on tuesday, the java book has arrived
[23:08] <Azelphur> ali1234: I just got the same io errors on a different microSD with a different reader :(
[23:08] <ali1234> Azelphur: how so?
[23:08] <ali1234> same type of reader?
[23:09] <ali1234> if so, maybe it's one of those ones that lies about the disk size
[23:09] <Azelphur> same type of card 2
[23:09] <Azelphur> too
[23:09] <Azelphur> http://pastebin.com/PEVBcqyD
[23:09] <Azelphur> I bought 2 readers and 2 microSD's from the same place
[23:09] <jacobw> java seems to be a good language to start with, because it has the core syntax of c/c++ with all the object orientated features of more modern languages
[23:09] <daubers> jacobw: I see :) How far down the OU route are you?
[23:10] <MartijnVdS> python is a good language to start with imho :)
[23:10] <jacobw> daubers: i'm starting the level 1 courses in February
[23:10] <MartijnVdS> java is so very extremely verbose
[23:10] <ali1234> Azelphur: that's a different sector
[23:10] <daubers> jacobw: OOooh
[23:10]  * daubers is jealous
[23:10] <Azelphur> +1 for python, jacobw java is weird now with oracle
[23:10] <ali1234> did you buy cheapola SD cards?
[23:10] <ali1234> from ebay?
[23:10]  * Azelphur hides
[23:10] <Azelphur> ali1234: worse, china.
[23:10] <daubers> jacobw: How many are you doing at once?
[23:10] <ali1234> Azelphur: everything comes from china...
[23:11] <Azelphur> ali1234: I got it from dealextreme which is some chinese drop shipping company
[23:11] <jacobw> daubers: i'm doing two at once, i've already studied a level 2 course in cisco networking on the OU so i think i'll be able to handle two courses
[23:11] <Azelphur> that said the microsd cards are SanDisk class 4
[23:11] <Azelphur> you'd think they wouldn't both die
[23:12] <MartijnVdS> never believe chinese companies ;)
[23:12] <jacobw> daubers: one of the courses is called 'networked living', i've already got a BTEC in communications technology so it should be fairly straightforward
[23:12] <ali1234> sandisk aren't exactly known for being the best anyway
[23:12] <Azelphur> I see
[23:12] <Azelphur> the readers are very cheap crap though
[23:12] <Azelphur> they was like $2
[23:12] <ali1234> SD readers are not complex though
[23:13] <daubers> jacobw: Are you paying for it personally?
[23:13] <ali1234> does it always fail on same sector with same card?
[23:13] <Azelphur> they also get rather hot
[23:13] <ali1234> yeah mine do too
[23:13] <Azelphur> ali1234: not sure, guess I'll wait for the error to happen again and let you know
[23:14] <jacobw> daubers: i've applied for and got financial support for one (i.e. they pay themselves for you to do it)
[23:14] <ali1234> you probably shouldn't be using a journalling filesystem on SD card anyway
[23:14] <jacobw> daubers: HOWEVER, after that i realised that due to both modules having their last presentation in February, to get the full points at level 1 i needed to do the other course at the same time
[23:15] <Azelphur> ali1234: Ubuntu for joggler only comes in btrfs or ext4
[23:15] <jacobw> daubers: this was after the application deadline for financial support, so i had to pay for that one
[23:15] <ali1234> btrfs is supposed to be better for flash memory
[23:15] <Azelphur> I see
[23:15] <Azelphur> the joggler page said that ext4 is faster
[23:15] <Azelphur> but yea I can switch to btrfs I guess
[23:15] <daubers> jacobw: i'd be very interested in how it goes. I want to do that course at some point when I'm not saving up for a mortgage
[23:16] <ali1234> better not necessarily faster
[23:16] <Azelphur> hehe
[23:16] <exobuzz> you can run ext4 without the journal of course. but then its less safe
[23:16] <Azelphur> oh hey, it's exobuzz :p
[23:16] <ali1234> Azelphur: did you fix your arduino board yet?
[23:16] <exobuzz> btrfs in ssd mode has some performance issues currently..
[23:16] <Azelphur> ali1234: no rofl, I really need to get back on that
[23:17] <Azelphur> exobuzz: I feel the need to wind you up by saying "YOU BROKE 2 MICROSD CARDS YOU OWE ME MONIEZ."
[23:17] <Azelphur> hehe.
[23:17] <Azelphur> ali1234: I guess I'll grab another microsd card and try with btrfs see how it goes, any recommendations?
[23:18] <ali1234> not really
[23:18] <jacobw> daubers: i've learnt a lot from reading Dougie Richardson's experiences of the OU at http://blog.lynxworks.eu/ou/
[23:18] <Azelphur> haha
[23:18] <exobuzz> from joggler.exotica.org.uk "The Ext4 journal may wear out your usb flash drive faster however." :)
[23:18] <ali1234> heh, exactly :)
[23:18] <exobuzz> its not like i didnt mention it
[23:19] <Azelphur> exobuzz: haha yea I know, these are cheap crap that I picked up from some chinese store for $4
[23:19] <Azelphur> I'm not surprised they went south
[23:19] <ali1234> from the error, it looks like bad block in the journal area, so this is exactly what happened i would say
[23:19] <daubers> jacobw: Hmmm.... might see what the christmas bonus lets me afford
[23:19] <Azelphur> hehe
[23:20] <exobuzz> having said that, my usb sticks used for development have had a lot of use and lots of writes including running journalled filesystems and still going
[23:20] <jacobw> daubers: you might want to look in to financial support
[23:20] <Azelphur> exobuzz: do you have really tiny ones by chance?
[23:20] <exobuzz> some cheap 4gb usb pen drives
[23:20] <Azelphur> I bought mine because they look flush with the joggler, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/Photos/December%202010/IMG_20101208_021003.jpg
[23:20] <Azelphur> you can barely even see it, they do look good
[23:21] <jacobw> daubers: i think i got it pretty automatically earning ~12k in the last tax year and having no A levels or degree
[23:21] <exobuzz> you could run btrfs without compression but with ssd mode. just rsync the stuff off and change the mount options in fstab reformat and rsync it back
[23:21] <jacobw> and having a disability, irrelevant to OU study but it still ticks a box somewhere
[23:22] <exobuzz> Azelphur, what read speed did you get from them out of interest ?
[23:22] <Azelphur> exobuzz: hehe don't really need the performance, it's for a clock, EXT4 was silly :)
[23:22] <Azelphur> exobuzz: no idea
[23:22] <daubers> jacobw: Yeah, I looked, but what they're offering me wasn't worth the paperwork (specially as my pay goes up in january again)
[23:22] <ali1234> Azelphur: why even use ubuntu for that?
[23:22] <exobuzz> Azelphur, tried jolicloud yet ?
[23:22] <Azelphur> ali1234: conky alarm clock? who wouldn't want it :p
[23:22] <Azelphur> exobuzz: nope
[23:23] <ali1234> use gentoo, make a readonly rootfs with tmpfs mounts
[23:23] <exobuzz> http://joggler.exotica.org.uk/jolicloud/ - some nice points about it..
[23:23] <exobuzz> some bad too
[23:23] <jacobw> daubers: the cisco networking course i did on the OU didn't have much OU study material, all the material came from the cisco networking academy, so i can't really comment on the quality of OU courses yet
[23:23] <ali1234> you wont have to worry about wearing out the sd cards
[23:23] <Azelphur> exobuzz: fun, is it more suited for touch screens?
[23:23] <exobuzz> for some stuff yeh
[23:23] <Azelphur> ali1234: could do, that'd take long though, plus I like using it for mythtv
[23:24] <ali1234> also i would throw in Qt and build my UI in QML rather than conky
[23:24] <Azelphur> I was thinking about porting it to pyqt
[23:24] <ali1234> actually you may as well put meego on it
[23:24] <ali1234> handset is designed for touchscreen
[23:24] <Azelphur> how is meego doing now?
[23:24] <Azelphur> last I checked it wasn't ready
[23:24] <ali1234> meh
[23:24] <ali1234> it's still not ready
[23:24] <Azelphur> haha
[23:25] <Azelphur> ali1234: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-MB-MP4GEU-Micro-Extreme-Memory/dp/B00462RBLY/ref=dp_ob_title_ce how about this? :)
[23:25] <ali1234> class 6 is good, sure
[23:25] <Azelphur> that's what I figured :)
[23:25] <ali1234> but i would just buy another cheap one and set it up so it isn;t constantly writing logs to the rootfs
[23:26] <ali1234> btw did i mention i got a meego ideapad at the conference?
[23:26] <exobuzz> the journal is more damaging than the logs. one issue with tmpfs stuff is that joggler has quit limited ram too.. well only 512mb..
[23:26] <exobuzz> which isnt much once you got Xorg etc loaded
[23:26] <Azelphur> ali1234: jelous, mucho jelous :p
[23:26] <daubers> jacobw: CCNA?
[23:26] <exobuzz> read only fs would work of course, but limit what you can do with it
[23:26] <ali1234> not really
[23:26] <Azelphur> yea
[23:27] <ali1234> you could have mythtv, browser, alarm clock app...
[23:27] <ali1234> no problem at all
[23:27] <exobuzz> yeh but you need to pre-set it up..
[23:27] <Azelphur> I think I'll start with btrfs and a microsd card that cost more than a cup of coffee
[23:27] <Azelphur> and if it still causes problems I'll go further
[23:28] <ali1234> even better, network filesystem
[23:28] <exobuzz> perhaps microsd is more sensitive to write wearing than other types.. depending whats underneath hardwarewise
[23:28] <Azelphur> haha, that did actually pop into my head
[23:28] <Azelphur> exobuzz: would it be easy to netboot a joggler?
[23:28] <jacobw> daubers: yeah, i've not taken the CCNA exam yet though
[23:28] <ali1234> yes, i think usb flash controllers have a lot better wear levelling than sd cards, which are very simple
[23:29] <exobuzz> well. you could have a little dist that starts up then mounted root over the network easily enough.. but its going to be slow over wireless :)
[23:29] <daubers> jacobw: It's quite easy
[23:29] <ali1234> i think someone told me that once, i can't remember who it was though
[23:29] <Azelphur> hehe
[23:29] <Azelphur> that'd be a win win solution then
[23:29] <ali1234> you only need to network mount /home
[23:29] <Azelphur> I can easily get an ethernet cable next to my bed
[23:29] <ali1234> to save settings
[23:30] <exobuzz> i was looking at http://www.supertalent.com/products/stt_usb_detail.php?type=Pico as my perhaps next buy
[23:30] <Azelphur> hehe
[23:30] <ali1234> bake all software into the image
[23:30] <exobuzz> small enough .. and pretty quick
[23:30] <ali1234> mount /var and /tmp as tmpfs
[23:30] <exobuzz> ali1234, IF you dont intend to install more software etc
[23:30] <ali1234> you can always bake a new image
[23:31] <Azelphur> exobuzz: other thing I could do is use a laptop drive and a right-angle cable in the joggler
[23:31] <Azelphur> would be just as small, could mount the drive behind the joggler and it'd be much more resiliant
[23:31] <ali1234> actually as long as /var and /tmp are mounted on tmpfs you won't need to make ro partitions
[23:31] <exobuzz> sure.. well. you could have all your porn i mean media files local too then
[23:31] <Azelphur> haha
[23:32] <Azelphur> decisions :p
[23:34] <exobuzz> http://www.lacie.com/us/products/product.htm?pid=11572 are quite small
[23:34] <exobuzz> i heard they are not that quick either
[23:35] <exobuzz> probably faster than a microsd though
[23:36] <Azelphur> they look like they right sort of size
[23:36] <Azelphur> although I don't like the silly thing poking out the back
[23:36] <exobuzz> if you got with usb hd, you need a powered hub of course or some other power source
[23:37] <jacobw> daubers: what programming language did you learn first?
[23:37] <ali1234> instead of buying SD cards, why not buy a USB flash drive?
[23:37] <exobuzz> i have a black one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trust-Vecco-Port-Mini-17014/dp/B003H78V7W
[23:38] <jacobw> daubers: i've attempted to learn c++ many times in the past and given up at learning how pointers work
[23:38] <exobuzz> ali1234, my link was a usb flash drive
[23:38] <ali1234> yeah
[23:38] <exobuzz> with that small hub, you can have everything behind anyway
[23:38] <dutchie> jacobw: they point to stuff \o/
[23:38] <ali1234> jacobw: get K&R, read chapter 7
[23:39] <jacobw> i should get K&R
[23:39] <ali1234> yes, you should get K&R
[23:39] <jacobw> there are a lot of prgramming books i should get, i seem to have the ones that i shouldn't get
[23:39] <ali1234> K&R is the only programming book you need
[23:39] <ali1234> it's also the shortest one i've ever seen
[23:39] <exobuzz> there are lots of tutorials online about pointers
[23:40] <ali1234> i've never seen a better or more concise explanation of pointers than the one in K&R
[23:40] <ali1234> see, they resist the "memory is like a row of boxes" metaphor
[23:40] <exobuzz> i dont agree with the whole k&r preaching. i mean sure its "the" book. but its not good for learning from imho..
[23:40] <ali1234> i really really hate that one
[23:40] <exobuzz> as a beginner for example
[23:40] <penguin42> jacobw: What is it that you don't get about them?
[23:40] <ali1234> it's great for learning from
[23:40] <exobuzz> i think it jumps in quite quickly.. i know plenty of people who wouldnt manage it as the first book
[23:41] <ali1234> like it says on page 1, "C is not a large language and it is not served well by a large book"
[23:42] <exobuzz> i have the book, but i dont have the comp.lang.c mentality, which is not a good one imho :)
[23:42] <jacobw> i think i will read K&R once i've finished with this Java book
[23:43] <exobuzz> programmers are the worst for being anti social, opinionated, and stubborn. not understanding anything else but their way and expecting everyone to understand the world as they do :)
[23:43] <ali1234> well i can;t argue with that
[23:44] <ali1234> what java and C++ books did you get btw?
[23:45] <exobuzz> dont mention it if you have a book by Herbert Schildt just because ali1234 is about to tell you in that case how terrible it is, and then im going to switch off also :-)
[23:45] <jacobw> ali1234: herbert schildt
[23:46] <ali1234> for real? never heard of him...
[23:46] <jacobw> (i've already been lambasted on ##java for that decision today)
[23:46] <exobuzz> http://www.seebs.net/c/c_tcn4e.html
[23:46] <ali1234> lol
[23:46] <ali1234> sounds bad
[23:46] <exobuzz> i actually like much of the book. and i dont care..  :)
[23:47] <jacobw> exobuzz: what i've read of the java book that i've got, i like it too
[23:47] <jacobw> i think his writing style is good
[23:47] <uraken> hello all does anyone have any experience of random music playing on ubuntu ?
[23:47] <jacobw> i'm not a fan of the 'sacred texts' style of learning to do things
[23:47] <daubers> jacobw: The first language I learnt was Sinclair BASIC
[23:47] <MartijnVdS> not English? :P
[23:48] <exobuzz> daubers, extend mode symbol shift 4ever
[23:48]  * MartijnVdS started on GW-BASIC
[23:48] <daubers> jacobw: Pointers confused the hell out of me for ages until I took a step back and tried to understand what they did
[23:48] <exobuzz> i learnt speccy basic also
[23:48] <MartijnVdS> then qbasic, quickbasic, turbo pascal, C, perl
[23:48] <daubers> exobuzz: I've got a broken speccy waiting for me to have some time to give it some love
[23:49] <uraken> i am convinced i have a problem on my pc (running ubuntu) as my mouse keeps moving and i just switched it on and opened firefox and music started to play?
[23:49] <ali1234> the key to understanding pointers (and most things) is not to try to use them until you encounter the problem they solve
[23:50] <Darael> uraken: tab from a saved session with something that plays music in it? (eg youtube video)
[23:50] <daubers> I think mine went Sinclair BASIC, PHP, VBA, VB, C(bits of), Python, C (proper), Fortran (bits of) and now C++ :)
[23:50] <uraken> umm not sure maybe darael?
[23:50] <exobuzz> daubers, they need love.. and kinky rubbery sex
[23:50] <daubers> ali1234: You can hit that issue quite quickly though, when you need to pass a pointer of an array to a function
[23:51] <daubers> exobuzz: ...... maybe not as this is a 48k+. So no rubbery keys
[23:51]  * penguin42 could suggest learning some assembler; once you've done assembler pointers are just intuitive
[23:51] <Darael> Mine went Python, common lisp, C (bits of), VB (awful computing AS-level course), java (bits of).  People tend to ask why on earth I did CL.
[23:51] <exobuzz> daubers, its rubber underneath! ;-)
[23:51] <daubers> Hmmm, pass a pointer to an array
[23:51] <daubers> exobuzz: As are most keyboards these days
[23:52] <exobuzz> daubers, i got a 128k+ with +D.. not used it for a little while. also needs some love
[23:52] <daubers> Oh! I did do a bit of C# on my gap year for some ASP.Net stuff
[23:52] <exobuzz> Darael, python then VB.. that's just weird :-)
[23:52] <daubers> exobuzz: Mines probab;y having it's mobo ditched and a modern one put in it :) Hoping I can convince the keyboard to work through USB or somesuch
[23:52] <exobuzz> you are travelling backwards in time!
[23:52] <Darael> exobuzz: Not my choice.
[23:53] <exobuzz> daubers, what problems does it have. mine works great actually. it only needs love in the attention type, not fixing.
[23:53] <uraken> darael thats exactly what it was ...paranoid or what thanks mate
[23:53] <Darael> exobuzz: I was really annoyed when I found out that this year the teacher had got fed up with VB and moved to Python.  If only he'd done so a year earlier.
[23:53] <exobuzz> some stuff is fixable..
[23:53] <Darael> uraken: No probs.  It happens to me quite often :P
[23:54] <exobuzz> Darael, sounds like was clinging on like ie6 :)
[23:54] <daubers> exobuzz: No power supply and some of the buttons are worn
[23:55] <exobuzz> you can get replacement membrane for keyboard for about £14 btw if some keys dont work
[23:55] <jacobw> one of my motivations for learning Java is that my company has a number of horrific Java applications and i want to fix them :p
[23:55] <ali1234> all java applications are horrific...
[23:55] <Darael> exobuzz: Funny you should say that - my VIth form tried changing to Firefox but the tech couldn't work out how to lock it down so they went back to IE.  At least they went to IE7...
[23:55] <exobuzz> power supply.. its erm 9v 1a or so i htink. you can get a generic one to use im sure.
[23:56] <exobuzz> unregulated
[23:56] <jacobw> ali1234: i suppose in the fullness of time i could reimplement them in C++
[23:56] <jacobw> jEdit is a non-horrific Java application
[23:57] <dutchie> i fail to see how re-implementing a java app in c++ would make it less horrific :)
[23:57] <daubers> Hmmmm
[23:57] <jacobw> memory usage
[23:57] <daubers> Might have a play with that then
[23:57] <daubers> anyway
[23:57] <daubers> off to bed I think
[23:57] <daubers> night all
[23:57] <exobuzz> you should recode it in 68000 assembler. then realise you are spoilt with so many registers and do it in 6502 asm
[23:57] <jacobw> night daubers
[23:58] <jacobw> ha, i was born in '91, that is not a suitable task for a person of my age :)
[23:59] <Darael> jacobw: I, born in '92, will now have to code whatever it is in 6502 asm just to disprove that statement.
[23:59] <exobuzz> :)
[23:59] <Darael> I'm not particularly happy about this.