[10:56] <coz_> good day
[10:57] <woutervddn> a very good morning coz_
[10:57] <coz_> woutervddn,  hey guy  good morning to you as well :)
[10:57] <woutervddn> thx..
[10:58] <woutervddn> I made 4 wallpapers for xubuntu last night..
[10:58] <coz_> very cool
[10:58] <woutervddn> then I read they were supposed to be without text or logo :)
[10:58] <woutervddn> I went: FUUUUuuuuuuuuuu
[10:59] <coz_> woutervddn,  :)  yeah  it seems its been that way from almost day one... I can recall just about everyone  saying...including shuttleworth, "no logos on wallpaper"
[10:59] <woutervddn> but why is that?
[11:00] <coz_> woutervddn,  welll I believe the idea is to have something well composed...simple..clear  and not distracting
[11:00] <woutervddn> As much as I want to believe that it says I'm shy or whatever, I think it's a matter of pride..
[11:00] <coz_> woutervddn,  examples like the current 10.10 default wallpaper
[11:01] <woutervddn> from xubuntu or ubuntu?
[11:01] <coz_> woutervddn,  all of the ubuntu versions now I believe
[11:02] <woutervddn> xubuntu still uses text on there 10.10 release
[11:02] <coz_> woutervddn,  oh!  mmm
[11:02] <coz_> woutervddn,   well apparenlty someone decided no more  I guess
[11:03] <woutervddn> Ah, it's okay :p I just wished someone said that sentence in bold :p
[11:03] <coz_> woutervddn,  :)
[11:03] <woutervddn> really sucks.. there were only 2 that look somewhat ok without the text :p
[11:05] <coz_> woutervddn,  yeah ,, when you compose it with text  ,,,removing the text then damages the composition
[11:05] <woutervddn> indeed ^
[11:06] <coz_> woutervddn,  I havent submited this ,,, and I made these quite a while ago...but i sort of got around  the "no text" thing with this one   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Wallpaper/untitled%20folder/natty.png
[11:06] <woutervddn> that's nice..
[11:06] <woutervddn> omg so clean XD
[11:06] <coz_> woutervddn,  thanks
[11:07] <woutervddn> I suppose this was for edubuntu?
[11:07] <coz_> woutervddn,  well with the "U"  in the water i guess it wouldnt matter  which version
[11:08] <woutervddn> yeah that's true.. I just thought of edu from the colors..
[11:08] <coz_> woutervddn,  although I wouldnt have submitted that for edubuntu... there was one edubuntu wallpaper I really liked...one with a chalk board  and maps drawn on it
[11:08] <coz_> woutervddn,  oh ok I never thought of submitting that for edubuntu
[11:09] <woutervddn> well I think edubuntu should be promoted more..
[11:10] <woutervddn> I'm thinking about introducing that thought to our ubuntu-be local team..
[11:10] <coz_> woutervddn,  I agree   I love that version and generally use it...recently , however,  I have been running ubuntu and just installing certain kde applications
[11:10] <woutervddn> wel tbh I never really used it, just once when a friend tried it...
[11:11] <woutervddn> but I love the thought of it...
[11:11] <coz_> woutervddn,  its quite nice,,,they incorporated kde / gnome is a way that is not sluggish at all
[11:11] <woutervddn> the current school curriculum in Belgium states that a student must be able to work with WINDOWS when he finishes school
[11:11] <coz_> woutervddn,  o0
[11:11] <coz_> woutervddn,  that's awful
[11:11] <woutervddn> yeah.. reason for that is that windows is the major OS..
[11:12] <coz_> woutervddn,  in belgium?
[11:12] <coz_> woutervddn,  that's surprising...i was under the impression that europe in general was moving towards  linux
[11:12] <woutervddn> yes, but it's not like they check for it, if you're OS at school is osX or linux it's not a problem
[11:13] <coz_> oh!!
[11:13] <woutervddn> but by putting that in the curriculum they send the wrong tone..
[11:13] <coz_> for sure
[11:13] <woutervddn> don't get it wrong, we are getting to linux.. but our ministry just don't change it..
[11:14] <woutervddn> I guess there are a number of reasons for that..
[11:14] <coz_> woutervddn,  are they reluctant because they would have to change teaching stradegies?
[11:14] <woutervddn> 1) we don't have a goverment atm, 2) windows is used everywhere, 3) the ministry doesn't know sht about linux so they don't promote it..
[11:15] <coz_> woutervddn,  ah ok
[11:15] <woutervddn> I don't think anyone really tried to let them show a linux version for school use..
[11:15] <coz_> woutervddn,  here in the US  we have one city governemtn in the state of Florida that has been switched completely over to Linux  + compiz
[11:15] <coz_> government
[11:16] <woutervddn> now that's cool :o
[11:16] <coz_> woutervddn,  and very unique..it is the first government  organization that has done this to my knowledge
[11:16] <woutervddn> if I could get the ubuntu-be team to support this and arange a meeting with our ministry we might get things done..
[11:17] <coz_> woutervddn,  yeah ,,,I would also go into the with the expectation that they are set in their ways  and may be somewhat reluctant to change :)
[11:17] <woutervddn> because students are our future.. changes of people above 30 or 40 to radically change to linux are slim..
[11:18] <coz_> woutervddn,  oh well I dont about the age thing... i switch many of my clients over to ubuntu from windows all the time..and none have had any problem
[11:18] <coz_> many are well over 40
[11:18] <woutervddn> coz_ I don't know if they would be reluctant, in  general change in our school system has been welcomed a lot..
[11:18] <coz_> one in his 80's
[11:18] <woutervddn> really?
[11:18] <woutervddn> hmm..
[11:18] <coz_> woutervddn,  oh?  thats good to know
[11:18] <woutervddn> but don't you think it's easier to let the youth change.. they are in general more open to this stuff..
[11:19] <woutervddn> I showed ubuntu to my dad and he was like: Oh I don't get it, way more logical in windows
[11:19] <coz_> woutervddn,  lol
[11:19] <coz_> woutervddn,  windows is far from logical
[11:19] <coz_> woutervddn,  gnome tends to be the most ligical of the DE's in my opinion
[11:20] <woutervddn> I showed it to my little sister and she went: lol this is fast, I don't understand how it fully works but I like it..
[11:20] <coz_> woutervddn,   I tell my clients...no viruses...at least yet for the desktop...no spyware....no money for anitvirus...now money for anything
[11:20] <woutervddn> coz_: it's just a different kind of logic.. and the windows logic is't really logical logic, but it's just a matter of habbit..
[11:20] <coz_> i agree
[11:21] <thorwil> coz_: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Wallpaper/untitled%20folder/natty.png is clean and quite unique. at least i don't recall seeing something too similar
[11:21] <woutervddn> and true about the money thing,  that might trigger something in belgium to... Schools can't afford a new ICT infrastructure every 3 years...
[11:21] <woutervddn> paying 1000s and 1000s for an OS, there are better ways to spend your money
[11:22] <coz_> thorwil,  thanks.. I have that and another in the same kind of  composition  but I never submitted them
[11:22] <woutervddn> thorwil is either quoting me or we have the exact opinion, strange (after yesterday)
[11:22] <coz_> thorwil,     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Wallpaper/untitled%20folder/ubuntu_Pond2.png
[11:23] <woutervddn> coz_ ever thought about teaching? :p
[11:24] <coz_> woutervddn,   yes  and I quickly reject the idea lol.. people in the US  are somewhat confused about what art is
[11:24] <thorwil> woutervddn: hmm? i actually don't sense that much disagreement between us, it's just coming from different angles
[11:24] <woutervddn> :p if not for the art, then do it for the techniques..
[11:24] <coz_> woutervddn,  they assume that  the ability to draw or copy photos has something to do with fine art
[11:24] <woutervddn> tbh I don't have a clue how to make a wrinkle in gimp
[11:25] <woutervddn> thorwil: in general I agree with a lot of people, but that might derive from the fact that I believe it's ok to disagree..
[11:25] <coz_> woutervddn,  i have argues with professors at  Carnegie Mellon university ...art progessors ...about the concept of composition...they are idiots
[11:25] <woutervddn> I just thought it was strange that you said the exact same thing about coz_'s work
[11:26] <woutervddn> apperantly coz_ can learn something about agreeing to dissagree :p
[11:26] <coz_> :)   I have much to learn about everything even at my age
[11:26] <woutervddn> coz_ as long as there is art there will be people who think one thing is art and another isn't
[11:27] <coz_> woutervddn,  yes this is true i suppose
[11:27] <thorwil> bbl
[11:27] <woutervddn> imo, you can't define what is true art and what not.. you either love something or you don't..
[11:27] <woutervddn> our brains work to different to all love the same thing..
[11:28] <coz_> woutervddn,  well I dont know.... I am not one who believes that art is subjective
[11:28] <coz_> woutervddn,  I sometimes go to washington DC  to the national gallery
[11:28] <woutervddn> do you agree that music a form of art?
[11:28] <coz_> woutervddn,  in one room are van gogh's painting
[11:28] <coz_> woutervddn,  i do agree that music is also art
[11:28] <woutervddn> (ill pick up the music thing later)
[11:29] <woutervddn> go on :p
[11:29] <coz_> woutervddn,  when I observer people in that van ghogh room ...one painting in particular... I forget the name... gather people aound it  like a magnet
[11:29] <woutervddn> and why do you think that is?
[11:29] <coz_> They are from all over the world  ..different backgrounds... different ethnic groups...yet they are drawn to this painting
[11:30] <coz_> woutervddn,  i believe it is because van gogh  was able to use the rules of composition  ,, as a second nature tool... he was able to paint with great emotion
[11:30] <woutervddn> can't  that be because in some way the painting is more universal?
[11:30] <woutervddn> so much emotion he cut his ear off!
[11:31] <coz_> woutervddn,  well he had epilepsy and probably syphilus
[11:32] <woutervddn> funny thing is: van gogh was dutch
[11:32] <coz_> but the fact that he worked so hard and was one of the most prolific painters... showed his dedication to learning composition and painting  regardless of his personal disabilities
[11:32] <coz_> woutervddn,  yes  he was :)
[11:32] <coz_> I also like the paint  odd nerdrum
[11:32] <coz_> painter
[11:32] <woutervddn> he was from brabant.. I'm from brabant to (belgium not netherlands but still it's like 80km away)
[11:32] <coz_> woutervddn,  cool
[11:32] <woutervddn> strange you bring that up :p
[11:33] <woutervddn> I think culture does a lot with what people agree to think is art and what isn't..
[11:34] <coz_> woutervddn,  maybe so ,, i believe more to the concept that culture  regards ...rightfully so... the importance of art as a career and certainly  one of the pillars that hold the roof up over a civilization
[11:34] <coz_> art  , science,,phylosphy  are intertwined
[11:35] <coz_> and a culture seasoned enough....old enough... and wise enough ,,,can see the importance of this
[11:35] <woutervddn> without a doubt that's true..
[11:35] <coz_> The US is FAR  from wise  or seasoned
[11:35] <woutervddn> I'm still amased of the amount of math in all kinds of art
[11:36] <woutervddn> the US is new..
[11:36] <woutervddn> you may not compare it to europe fi...
[11:36] <coz_> woutervddn,  yes and that math underlies all composition    geometry anyway
[11:36] <woutervddn> true..
[11:36] <coz_> woutervddn,  but the US was populated by those from seasoned and wise cultures
[11:36] <coz_> woutervddn,  they have lost their  cultural memories
[11:37] <coz_> woutervddn,  I once showed a few of my nude drawings  to people ... one said to me ,,,"Is that all you thing about?  SEX!"
[11:37] <woutervddn> you know mozard introduced new instruments in the 2nd the 3rd the 5th the 8th the 13th, measure..
[11:38] <woutervddn> coz_ in a year or 100 they'll understand..
[11:38] <coz_> woutervddn,   I am glad you believe that :)  I have my doubtsd
[11:38] <coz_> doubts
[11:39] <woutervddn> anyways when you would take 2/3, 3/5, 5/8, 8/13, ... you get the golden mean..
[11:39] <coz_> ah yes
[11:39] <woutervddn> I'm sure of that, just as I'm sure that in 2 generations most of the funamental moslims will be gone...
[11:40] <woutervddn> it's all a matter of age, europe is way older than america (or the US), just as christianity is 512 years older then the islam..
[11:41] <woutervddn> give new groups of people some time, give them time to understand, give them time to see things in perspective..
[11:41] <coz_> woutervddn,  One thing I have seen as i grow older  is that people around me are getting dumber
[11:41] <woutervddn> that's not true coz_ :p that's you getting wiser.. :p
[11:41] <coz_> woutervddn, oh no  I am not :)
[11:41] <woutervddn> how old are you?
[11:42] <woutervddn> (i didn't say wise, I said wiser)
[11:42] <coz_> woutervddn,  one person we were talking with about many things..said ..."OH!  NASA  are the people who put a hole in the ozone layer so the space shuttle can get into space"
[11:43] <woutervddn> xD yeah, I did saw a few vid's on youtube about americans answering questions of which you think, U got to be kidding me
[11:43] <coz_> woutervddn,    yes it is quite frightening :)
[11:44] <coz_> woutervddn,  as to my age,,, I generally tell people that I was around when "dirt "  was being created... I voted no on that issue :)
[11:44] <woutervddn> I don't want to offend anyone, but I think america has become victim of what I think is the ease of being superficial
[11:45] <coz_> woutervddn,  that is not offensive or  far from the truth
[11:45] <woutervddn> dirt? I supose not like dirt from the ground...
[11:45] <coz_> yes dirt from the ground lol
[11:46] <woutervddn> damn you're old O_o'
[11:46] <coz_> woutervddn,  thats a joke  by the way
[11:46] <coz_> lol
[11:46] <woutervddn> lol I know :p ;)
[11:46] <coz_> woutervddn,  the wonderful thing about irc is that age  and appearances  have no  place in conversations
[11:47] <coz_> only content
[11:47] <woutervddn> true..
[11:47] <woutervddn> altough, when I have to guess your age I'd say about 40 to 43 ?
[11:49] <coz_> I'll accept that
[11:49] <woutervddn> how far am I off?
[11:49] <coz_> lol
[11:50] <coz_> woutervddn,    I never reveal age....I do ask others only because they sometimes reveal themselves to be  in their teens  via converstaions
[11:51] <woutervddn> how old do you think I am..
[11:51] <coz_> woutervddn,  i dont know... as I said ,, i concentrate on the content of the conversation rather than the age of the brain it comes from
[11:52] <coz_> woutervddn,  I have become used to the fact that people here in the US  over 40 or 50 tend to act 16
[11:52] <woutervddn> nvmnd then.. :)
[11:52] <woutervddn> you don't originate from the us don't you?
[11:53] <coz_> woutervddn,  it is "always" refreshing to speak with europeans  and others from different countries  since they are far more mature in mind
[11:53] <coz_> woutervddn,  no   my family is from Italy
[11:53] <woutervddn> you're starting to scare me.. :s
[11:53] <coz_> lol
[11:53] <woutervddn> first van gogh.. now italy..
[11:53] <coz_> woutervddn, :)
[11:54] <woutervddn> 2 minutes ago my girlfriend walked in and told me she was thinking about moving to italy once we've completed school..
[11:54] <coz_> woutervddn,  oooo
[11:54] <coz_> woutervddn,  go with her :)
[11:55] <woutervddn> lol, I told her I will, belgium is a nice country but seeing things beyond it would be nice..
[11:55] <coz_> woutervddn,  neither of you  will regret it :)
[11:56] <woutervddn> it might allways be Switzerland.. she's hoping on an internship at CERN
[11:57] <coz_> woutervddn,  well then just go to italy for a year
[11:58] <woutervddn> :p it seems like you're regretting the fact that you ever left italy?
[11:59] <coz_> woutervddn,  we came here when I was very  young... and yes   I can always remember saying "Why did we come here?"
[12:00] <woutervddn> then get your ass back over there :)
[12:00] <coz_> woutervddn,  the US is beautiful ...BIG... lots of room  many forests  mountains
[12:00] <woutervddn> if it's really such a pain that is..
[12:00] <coz_> woutervddn,  but the people ruin it lol
[12:01] <coz_> woutervddn,  here  buildings are built and demolished with no regard
[12:01] <woutervddn> well, italy has quite a lot of space (for europe), and it has berlusconi,.. so it doesn't differ much from us I guess :p
[12:01] <coz_> woutervddn,  people have no common sense ...  they can be very rude... but more importantly they have no self respect
[12:01] <woutervddn> that sucks.. :)
[12:02] <woutervddn> self respect and feeling good leads to respecting the environment around you..
[12:02] <coz_> woutervddn,  yes it is ...of course that's not every person here but for the most part,,, regular people are not that bright and have non sense of their own possibilities
[12:02] <woutervddn> and I'm not talking about keeping forests here, I'm talking about simple things..
[12:02] <coz_> woutervddn,  I completely understand what you are saying
[12:03] <woutervddn> U must have a european mind then :p
[12:03] <coz_> woutervddn,  apparently that's true... I have never seen the world through american eyes
[12:04] <woutervddn> one thing I was surprised to see lately was the inability of americans to see the use of social security..
[12:05] <coz_> woutervddn,  doesnt surprise me :)
[12:05] <woutervddn> it's a great idea, belgium has it for decates and even the chinese government checked our system because they thought it was good..
[12:06] <coz_> cool
[12:06] <woutervddn> especially after a crisis that big they must understand the benefits of it..
[12:07] <woutervddn> and yes, there will be people who take advantage of it, but there are plenty of people who won't..
[12:08] <woutervddn> how hypocrite is it to ask about a persons insurance while he's allready in a hospital dieing..
[12:08] <coz_> woutervddn,  oh yes...I now
[12:08] <coz_> know
[12:08]  * darkmatter gives coz_ a good morning poke
[12:08] <woutervddn> but if you hate all those things, then why don't you come back?
[12:08] <coz_> darkmatter,   hey guy :)
[12:09] <coz_> woutervddn, oh  I have family in both places but   also responsibilities here
[12:10]  * darkmatter can't sleep so is trying to get some work done on Nostromo/Pandora, but blurry eyes are blurry
[12:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  what time is it there for you?
[12:10] <darkmatter> coz6:09 am (and I didn't go to bed)
[12:11] <coz_> oh one hour difference for us   it is  7:09 here
[12:11] <coz_> darkmatter,  you know already know sleep is more important :)
[12:12] <darkmatter> coz_: yesh. but my rh is acting up. kinda hard to catch zz's when your body feel like a giant toothache. lol
[12:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  ouch
[12:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  is there anything you can do to relieve that?
[12:13] <darkmatter> coz_: other than eating acetaminophen like pez, not really. NSAIDs are a big nono for me
[12:13] <coz_> darkmatter,  damn
[12:14] <coz_> darkmatter,  does anythning else help?  hot baths..cold packs ?
[12:14] <darkmatter> somewhat. but if I bath now I'll fall asleep in the tub, lol
[12:15] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)  how about any of the opiats?
[12:15] <woutervddn> back.. sry went to put some soup on..
[12:15] <coz_> woutervddn,  my kind of guy... food first lol
[12:15] <woutervddn> xD srr..
[12:15] <darkmatter> coz_: probably, but I don't have any
[12:16] <coz_> darkmatter,  cant the physician prescribe any?
[12:18] <darkmatter> coz_: yes. but the only time I see physicians is when I go in for my checkups at the cancer clinic (have one there alongside my oncologist). I _refuse_ to see the ones here in town because they're quacks ;)
[12:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  understandable..but cant you call them and let them know?
[12:19] <darkmatter> yeah. i guess I could, but they'd probably wanna check me over before subscribing anything. they're overly thorough that way (go figure)
[12:20] <coz_> darkmatter,  well then do it...a complete checkover is not that hard  and the result is a prescription to stop or at leas make the pain bearable
[12:20] <coz_> let me take a nature break   brb
[12:21] <woutervddn> darkmatter, can I ask which kind of cancer you have?
[12:22] <darkmatter> coz_: the local doctors here are so quacky they won't even fill out the forums to renew my disability "you don't really need it" is the usual type of response. oh really? I can't work, have a progressive disease, and can't eat a normal diet. that qualifies as "needing it" in my book :/
[12:23] <woutervddn> doesn't  sound like you're lucky then.. :s
[12:23] <woutervddn> how far is the clinic away?
[12:24] <darkmatter> woutervddn: CLL/SLL. not "curable" like other cancers, but responds well to chemo. slow progressive crap. flares up >chemo until it's in check > watch list for <random interval> until it flares up again
[12:24] <darkmatter> woutervddn: 200km (well, actually more like 145)
[12:25] <coz_> darkmatter,  I meant call to the clinic for it
[12:25] <darkmatter> coz_: I know, but they tend to be very picky about bloodtests and physical exams before prescribing anything
[12:26] <woutervddn> that really sucks.. and driving 200km is one of those things you're not really looking forward to I suppose..
[12:26] <coz_> darkmatter,  so what?  your health is more important than your inconvenience ..yes?
[12:27] <darkmatter> woutervddn: it's not that bad atm. I'm on the watchlist atm, so it's every two months
[12:28] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok ..well... you know best what you can cope with ...so i will back off
[12:28] <woutervddn> ok, but still..
[12:28] <darkmatter> cozyes. but I have an appointment at the end of the month for my regular prodding. I'd rather not blow money I don't have on an extra trip ;)
[12:28] <coz_> darkmatter,  understood
[12:29] <darkmatter> I'll just harrass them about it when I see them
[12:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  that's the spirit :)
[12:30] <coz_> ok guys,, I am going to break her for a bit.. I have to do  a few things     be back in a little while
[12:32] <darkmatter> I'd _have_ the money if the bloody government had the courtesy to send the renewal forms _before_ cancelling my medical. they're kinda odd like that. they seem to think ending a chemo cycle is _cured_ or some silliness. *shrug*
[12:33] <woutervddn> :s
[12:33] <woutervddn> that sucks..
[12:35] <woutervddn> brb.. (food)
[12:35] <darkmatter> just an inconvenience this time around. usually I have enough of a grace period so I don't lose the extra funds.
[12:49] <woutervddn> back..
[12:50] <woutervddn> darkmatter, that pain, does it go away? or does that stay for another month?
[12:51] <darkmatter> woutervddn: it'll pass. it probably flared up because of the weather (barometric pressure and such)
[12:52] <woutervddn> wow, is it really that sensitive to weather?
[12:53] <darkmatter> woutervddn: yes. rh is known to be affected by such things. the extent varies with individual cases, but is well documented
[12:54] <woutervddn> I've had a couple of relatives that died of cancer (not leukemia) but I never knew that it was sensitive in that way..
[12:55] <woutervddn> is there much research going on to cll/sll
[12:56] <darkmatter> woutervddn: lol. not the leukemia. the pain is from rh (rheumatoid arthritis). you must have missed that ;)
[12:57] <woutervddn> ow sorry yes..
[12:58] <darkmatter> my leukemia is currently in the "wait and see" stage again, so I'm good for the time being. and yes, there is a lot of research being done
[12:59] <woutervddn> thats a good thing then.. :)
[13:00] <woutervddn> so how long are you allready active in the artwork-team?
[13:03] <darkmatter> I'm not actually. I just gather here out of respect for  my peers (and the lively banter they sometimes provide when not procrastinating... lazy buggers ;p). I became jaded regarding any possible association between FOSS and art /design/sanity ages ago ;)
[13:05] <woutervddn> ow :p
[13:06] <woutervddn> but you are active in the design the design world?
[13:06] <darkmatter> trying to be, sometimes
[13:06] <woutervddn> we're all just trying :p
[17:55] <kwwii> hey all
[18:36] <thorwil> hi ho
[18:50] <woutervddn> ugh, headache
[19:37] <kwwii> hi thorwil
[19:37] <kwwii> woutervddn: take two and call me in the morning :-)
[19:38] <thorwil> doctor ken?
[19:38] <woutervddn> lol
[19:38] <woutervddn> I don't know what it is, I ate this evening, went to sit in this chair and got a stinging pain..
[19:41] <kwwii> thorwil: hey, I hung out with vish and learned a lot!
[19:41] <kwwii> woutervddn: ouch
[19:41] <kwwii> suckage
[19:42] <woutervddn> yeah..
[19:42] <thorwil> my brother recently had the idea of trying to cure his back pain by using one of those big orange inflatable rubber balls to sit on in front of the pc
[19:43] <thorwil> took just few minutes to find out the ball was too low and does not permit sufficient air circulation for the butt :)
[19:44] <kwwii> lol
[19:58] <woutervddn> lolz
[20:09] <troy_s> vish: Greets. Co
[20:09] <troy_s> cozziemoto: Coz that you?
[20:23] <woutervddn> coz_ went away an hour ago I think..
[20:23] <woutervddn> but he might be online with 2 usernames..
[20:33] <troy_s> woutervddn: I was going to give him grief for suggesting art and design wasn't relative.
[20:33] <woutervddn> xD lol
[20:34] <troy_s> woutervddn: It is a path that a huge body of evidence rejects any notions of "universal"
[20:35] <woutervddn> troy, if all your artwork is as complex as your way of speaking, it would be a fractal!
[20:36] <troy_s> woutervddn: Even what many believed to be 'physiological' optical illusions has had research that suggests it is cultural.
[20:37] <troy_s> woutervddn: Art has been around longer than agriculture and literature. Would you expect simple?
[20:37] <woutervddn> or a deviation of the brain..
[20:39] <woutervddn> do you know the hollow mask study performed on people with lsd?
[20:40] <troy_s> woutervddn: No, can't say I do.
[20:40] <woutervddn> it's not really about art but about optical illusions..
[20:41] <woutervddn> people who took lsd and some people who have autism can tell the difference between a concave and a convex mask
[20:42] <woutervddn> whereas normal people can't, we allways think to see a convex one..
[20:42] <woutervddn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-Face_illusion
[20:42] <woutervddn> there's a documentary about it..
[20:42]  * woutervddn wonders what that has to do with art.. anyways, illusions..
[20:42] <troy_s> woutervddn: Optical illusions are relative. Many think they are absolute.
[20:43] <troy_s> woutervddn: Because art / design is relativistic as well.
[20:43] <troy_s> woutervddn: "Proper" composition? Relative to culture. Relative to history. Etc.
[20:43] <woutervddn> ofcourse art is relative in some way..
[20:44] <woutervddn> some things about art are just easier to accept in a lot of cultures..
[20:44] <woutervddn> and that my friend is all about math..
[20:44] <troy_s> woutervddn: Symbolism and analogy, the cornerstones of a visual language, relative.
[20:44] <woutervddn> the golden mean..
[20:44] <troy_s> woutervddn: No
[20:44] <troy_s> woutervddn: That is precisely my point.
[20:45] <woutervddn> I'm not saying everything is just math..
[20:45] <troy_s> woutervddn: Phi is western art.
[20:45] <troy_s> Wou
[20:45] <troy_s> woutervddn: A construct of the Renaissance.
[20:46] <woutervddn> I doubt that..
[20:46] <troy_s> woutervddn: There simply is no universal truth in art and design.
[20:46] <troy_s> woutervddn: Some do. Research it.
[20:47] <troy_s> woutervddn: I am stating you would be simply incorrect to believe Phi governs Indian art, Asian art, or any other culture outside of Eurowestern approach.
[20:48] <woutervddn> I'll do some research about that, that is a very interesting question you have there..
[20:48] <troy_s> woutervddn: Which is precisely why understanding art / design as language is critical.
[20:48] <troy_s> woutervddn: Some have already studied it and researched it.
[20:48] <woutervddn> without a doubt leonardo da vinci has a lot to do with the european way of thinking about art..
[20:49] <troy_s> woutervddn: There is a good example of "reading" art...
[20:49] <woutervddn> but I'll look for older forms of art..
[20:49] <troy_s> woutervddn: It was an influential movement.
[20:49] <woutervddn> it was indeed
[20:49] <troy_s> woutervddn: It too passes. Will pass.
[20:50] <troy_s> woutervddn: http://www.eyes-and-vision.com/influence-of-culture-on-visual-perception.html
[20:50] <woutervddn> hmm.. question: how come the golden ratio is used in pyramids?
[20:51] <woutervddn> the incas, aztecs and Egyptians use it in there pyramids...
[20:51] <troy_s> woutervddn: It is precisely why I encourage people to actually study art and design history. What many folks accept as "truth" in Libre software is absolutely false.
[20:52] <troy_s> woutervddn: It isn't. Read Mario Livo's book.
[20:52] <woutervddn> who's mario livo?
[20:52] <troy_s> woutervddn: The thing about Phi is that when it is irresponsibly applied you can see it everywhere. Like god or looking at shapes in clouds.
[20:53] <troy_s> woutervddn: The Golden Mean.
[20:54] <woutervddn> true.. but some measurements are just to precise..
[20:54] <woutervddn> and that link is was stunning :)
[20:54] <troy_s> Erm... The Golden Ratio. It -is- a compelling value, but it was a core of artists in a movement that put it into the Eurowesterner's aesthetic vernacular.
[20:55] <woutervddn> btw, troy, that link said something about illusion, not about compsition..
[20:55] <troy_s> woutervddn: Hopefully it hints at some of the complexity in art and design as language.
[20:56] <troy_s> woutervddn: You will need to look at non Eurowestern art to support that claim. Or pre Ren art for that matter.
[20:56] <troy_s> woutervddn: Portraiture reveals its impact almost immediately.
[20:58] <troy_s> woutervddn: This is a fantastic article illustrating how relativistic context and culture play into design: http://www.uigarden.net/english/global-market-global-emotion-global-design
[21:00] <woutervddn> I'll look at some more 'evidence' of the art conspiracy later on.. but I have to run now..
[21:01] <woutervddn> Cya ;-)
[21:02] <troy_s>  woutervddn Ciao. It isn't a conspiracy. ;)
[21:03] <troy_s> woutervddn: It is education.