[07:36] <kwwii> lol, if someone sees troy tell him I am purposely avoiding him :P
[08:04] <vish> thorwil: what is baer talking about now? "Alternate wallpapers" ? is that the one for the package? or for the default?
[08:04] <thorwil> vish: "alternate" means not default
[08:04] <thorwil> vish: aside of that, i'm not sure how he thinks this is supposed to work out
[08:05] <vish> what does this mean? " It is important to remember this is a proposal which means this effort may or may not be endorsed by the Canonical Design Team."
[08:05]  * vish starting to get really pissed!
[08:05] <thorwil> vish: extra fun is that he asked for my advice about this a few days ago
[08:05] <vish> if it is his personal agenda, it has no place in the team's project page
[08:05] <thorwil> vish: to ignore it, as comes out now
[08:06] <vish> thorwil: oh! he asked you to ignore it?
[08:07] <thorwil> vish: no, he asked for advice and what he did now means he ignored my advice
[08:07] <vish> :/
[08:07] <vish> i'm just going to move the tasks out of the wiki
[08:07] <vish> to his personal page..
[08:08] <thorwil> vish: and what will you post to the list?
[08:08] <vish> nothing..
[08:08] <vish> this was the very reason automatic mailing to the list was not used..
[08:08] <thorwil> vish: that's ugly
[08:08] <vish> yea, well.. he asked you for advice.. not me.. ;)
[08:08] <vish> that means i have no obligation to reply.. :)
[08:09] <thorwil> vish: don't play hide and seek
[08:09] <thorwil> vish: be open about your strong rejection, or ignore this
[08:10] <vish> thorwil: oh, well.. ok.. I'll reply to the list as well.. can i mention that he has "not taken advice from other members either?"
[08:10] <vish> i wont mention you by name..
[08:10] <thorwil> vish: no
[08:11] <vish> thorwil: hmm.. well, OK..  then atleast you'd need to reply yourself.. if you are making me reply ;p
[08:11] <thorwil> vish: if confronted, i'm sure he would explain how he did take my advice into account
[08:11] <thorwil> it doesn't really matter. all that matters is his proposal as such
[08:15] <vish> meh.. K, i'v just renamed his specs page, i'll reply to the list in a bit..
[08:33] <thorwil> vish: seems to me, the problem comes down to using specific flickr pools
[08:34] <thorwil> vish: if submissions following this would go into *the* flickr pool, there would be nothing to worry about
[08:45] <kwwii> I would think that simply making every submission come through the flickr pool keeps things simple and understandable
[11:07] <thorwil> vish: now i did send a reply, also stating that you are so not amused that you moved the spec
[11:09] <thorwil> vish: i'm sure everyone will be shocked and dismayed by this unprecedented level of aggression and wiki-mayhem from you!
[11:09] <thorwil> ;)
[11:37] <kwwii> hehe, is vish acting up?
[11:37] <kwwii> "again?"
[11:46] <thorwil> lol
[12:08] <woutervddn> good morning every1..
[12:08] <vish> thorwil: hey.. :)
[12:09] <vish> oops, yea.. got busy.. writing the mail..
[12:10] <coz_> good day all
[12:14] <woutervddn> hi coz_
[12:15] <coz_> woutervddn,  hey guy
[12:16] <woutervddn> how R U?
[12:22] <coz_> woutervddn,  I am well...good night sleep does the trick for me ...and of course a good cup of hot cocoa
[12:22] <coz_> Weather for: Pittsburgh, PA Updated: Mon, 13 December 2010 11:53:00 GMT Conditions are: light snow Current temperature: 20°F/-7°C Humidity: 81% Wind: From the West-North-West ↘ at 12 MPH Gusting to 21 MPH
[12:25] <coz_> woutervddn,  how are you this afternoon ?
[12:29] <woutervddn> ugh.. I have to study :(
[12:29] <woutervddn> but you know how things go.. ooh facebook, ooh lets check my mails, ooh look a spot on the wall
[12:38] <coz_> yeah
[12:38] <coz_> woutervddn,  what type of work do you do  artisticlly I mean
[12:44] <woutervddn> In general I try to set myself open as good as all types of graphical art..
[12:45] <woutervddn> In the past that was mostly making templates for websites etc..
[12:45] <woutervddn> but I'm trying new things now :)
[12:46] <woutervddn> btw: anyone here that has an idea about why inkscape allways needs 2 full minutes to load :o
[12:47] <coz_> woutervddn,  inkscape is generally always slow
[12:47] <coz_> to load
[12:47] <woutervddn> ow.. that makes sense :p
[12:47] <coz_> woutervddn,  I dont have the code details as to why
[12:48] <coz_> woutervddn,  its definitly a frequently asked question though
[12:49] <woutervddn> I thought it was my setup.. (which would be strange since I'm using the ubuntu-studio distro that's still 99% standard)
[12:49] <woutervddn> apart from docky..
[12:50] <coz_> woutervddn,   I have seen it open fast on other distributions  ie  Fedora I believe it was
[12:50] <coz_> woutervddn,  not sure if they did something to enahnce the loading
[12:52] <woutervddn> ow.. yeah, then it will be just slow on the buntu's..
[12:52] <woutervddn> ever used ubuntu-studio?
[12:52] <coz_> woutervddn,  I have yes
[12:52] <coz_> woutervddn,  I do all of my music composition on windows  unfortunatley...and graphics on linux
[12:54] <woutervddn> what do you think of there standard artwork?
[12:55] <coz_> woutervddn,  ubuntu studio's?
[12:55] <woutervddn> uhu
[12:55] <coz_> woutervddn,  i havent seen the current stuff  but I didnt like the default wallpaper a few versions ago
[12:55] <woutervddn> coz_ about the music thing: two new projects will hopefully make linux a worthy music composition station..
[12:56] <woutervddn> xD it's nice to see something that does the opposite of the normal ubuntu distro.. it gives me a sense of rebellion :p
[12:56] <coz_> :)
[12:57] <woutervddn> but I must say the last version had way to overloaded artwork..
[12:57] <coz_> woutervddn,  which 2 new projects
[12:57] <woutervddn> the Unison project, guy named pgib is writing LMMS all over with all the cons of LMMS in mind
[12:58] <coz_> mm
[12:58] <woutervddn> and then there is composite, that should become a live version of hydrogen
[12:58] <woutervddn> so if those projects would succeed, it would mean we have a decent opponent for ableton and for FL studio..
[12:59] <coz_> woutervddn,    ardour is a nice  DAW  for linux but I am not used to it
[13:03] <woutervddn> I love ardour, I don't have an apple and I've tried everything in windows, but linux+ardour is like the only thing that I can use to record 2 audio streams at once and use my headset (true ardour) without (to much) latency
[13:04] <woutervddn> I'm working on a project that goes true all the steps of setting up a home recording studio..
[13:04] <woutervddn> (in linux)
[13:04] <woutervddn> but due to my exams its on a 4 week hold :p
[13:06] <coz_> woutervddn,  understood
[16:37] <RawChid> Hey, I want to get some info on the new moinmoin LoCo theme on wiki.ubuntu.com Anyone knows where I can find more about this project and its progress
[16:38] <RawChid> This is close, but didn't found anything useful yet: http://www.mail-archive.com/loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com/msg00215.html
[19:05] <thorwil> what a mess
[19:08] <kwwii> thorwil: indeed
[19:31] <vish> kwwii: say something! ;)
[19:32] <vish> thorwil: do you know where the latest freeculture page is?
[19:33] <thorwil> nope
[19:35] <thorwil> vish: oh shit "It's a pretty basic understanding for anyone working in a FOSS team. You seem to be new to how tasks work for a team."
[19:35] <thorwil> "It seems you are not a native English speaker"
[19:35] <vish> yea.. i know ;p
[19:36] <thorwil> vish: now i really never would want to piss you off, you berserker! ;)
[19:37] <vish> thorwil: come on.. was that really that bad.. :s
[19:37] <vish> meh.. but it was really silly.. i dint know of a better way to say "shutup! you jackass"
[19:40] <thorwil> i wonder where the point is to ask him to just go away
[19:41] <thorwil> vish: what was that last edit about? http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0010_Alternate_Natty_Wallpapers?action=diff&rev1=1&rev2=2
[19:41] <vish> thorwil: i deleted that page..
[19:42] <troy_s> Greets.
[19:43] <thorwil> vish: this bloody imbecile of a wiki software. why doesn't it say so, instead of presenting a bullshit diff
[19:44] <vish> thorwil: oh! that's pretty stupid of the wiki.. i thought it would have been moved when i renamed the page the last time. but the page still existed until one deletes it.
[19:44] <thorwil> troy_s: we now reached the level of mud-catching, so it can only take a few aeons until we get to grokking the implications of cultural bias in artwork
[19:46] <troy_s> thorwil: wow you lost me.
[19:46] <troy_s> Mud catching?
[19:46] <troy_s> Lol
[19:46] <vish> wasnt it 'mud-slinging'?
[19:47] <thorwil> troy_s: fighting over a wiki page and questions about authority
[19:47] <troy_s> Ugh we covered that aeons ago.
[19:47] <thorwil> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_prDcjqclZ2g/TI_NA0et_0I/AAAAAAAAAm8/kXXyc0cUMts/s400/MudBowl2009.jpg
[19:47] <vish> troy_s: when new people get active, we need to revise the old lessons. ;)
[19:47] <troy_s> It is very simple. A big huge Canonical endorsed or Unofficial stamp.
[19:48] <thorwil> vish: if only. john is not new
[19:48] <vish> yea, even worse!
[19:48] <vish> thorwil: well, rather he is new in working 'as' a team
[19:49] <vish> he just used to do his own theme and get it updated.. and i dont think he was active in any other project...
[19:49] <troy_s> The point is that no project should mislead people. Using the term ubuntu confuses folks. Canonical, being often alien to new folks, does not in that it begs a question.
[19:50] <troy_s> Still improvement ... two people on the same side is better than none.
[19:51] <troy_s> kwwii: Wake up.
[19:52] <vish> troy_s: hehe, i just read you reply.. to my comment … you expanded my last line.. ;)
[19:52] <vish> your*
[19:53] <troy_s> I think that is the crux of the issue.
[19:53] <troy_s> If we are content wallowing in this goofy mudpit, change nothing.
[19:54] <vish> yupp.. but i dint want to expand it further than that.. :)
[19:54] <troy_s> The ignorant fall into two classes.
[19:55] <troy_s> Those that don't have an issue with our current level of art and design discourse and think all is good.
[19:55] <troy_s> And those that think it is only a matter of time before magic will bring along talented creatives.
[19:56] <troy_s> In reality I know of two BFa artist that are now practising that passed through the Ubuntu art list -before- they were at firms.
[19:57] <troy_s> What happened? They didn't stay. They were repulsed away.
[19:57] <troy_s> So, from what I can see, we are hemorrhaging creatives.
[19:59] <vish> yea.. i think people visit but dont see an interesting place to stay.. it doesnt benefit them, no healthy discussions, nothing creative..
[20:01]  * woutervddn lurking
[20:02] <woutervddn> this conversation look about take an interesting spin..
[20:06] <troy_s> Amen
[20:07] <woutervddn> apperantly it isn't :(
[20:07] <troy_s> It is precisely that. The environment, the soil if you will, is fundamentally infertile
[20:08] <troy_s> So much so that most sunk in it can't see it. And it is a systemic issue with cultural ethics.
[20:08] <troy_s> http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html
[20:09] <troy_s> I believe that Libre culture is much like that Google culture cited in that article.
[20:10] <thorwil> only instead of testing several shades of blue, it's just pick one randomly?
[20:11] <troy_s> thorwil: You know my answer to that.
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: Random opinion aka "data" is noise.
[20:12] <troy_s> thorwil: We should live and die by our desired audience. Not current audience. Not the random audience that we happened to have ended up with.
[20:13] <thorwil> troy_s: i won't advocate a detail obsessed engineering approach, what i meant is that that at least shows a level of caring, which seems to be absent in what you call Libre culture
[20:13] <troy_s> thorwil: And that doesn't mean polling or asking or testing. Imagine crafting a book thatbway. Or a movie. Or art...
[20:14] <troy_s> thorwil: I completely disagree. It highlights a fundamental and critical disjointed perception of how art and design function as language. How art and design functions in a culture.
[20:15] <thorwil> whatever
[20:15] <troy_s> Sorry.
[20:16] <troy_s> Its bogus synthetic caring.
[20:17] <troy_s> That achieves nothing. Poll 100 people on what color to make a sign.
[20:17]  * woutervddn is wondering, is troy really suggesting different artwork for different cultures?
[20:17] <troy_s> woutervddn: Hell yes.
[20:18] <troy_s> woutervddn: That is called glocalization.
[20:18] <woutervddn> hmm.. that would leave us with 200 U's, 200 xU's, 200U-kU's, lU's, U-s's.. LoCoTeams would be buzzy I guess.. :s
[20:18] <troy_s> woutervddn: But it is bigger and deeper than that really. It extends well past that as art is part of aesthetics and that means design.
[20:19] <troy_s> woutervddn: So quit worrying about everyone.
[20:19] <thorwil> troy_s: i think you missed that i was comparing bad to even less than that
[20:19] <troy_s> thorwil: I did apparently. It is and I agree.
[20:20] <thorwil> troy_s: just the idea that there a goals to aim at with a piece of visual design seems to be a *novel* idea in some free software circles
[20:20] <troy_s> thorwil: But they are somewhat equivalent don't you think?
[20:20] <troy_s> thorwil: LMAO. Yes agree.
[20:21] <thorwil> in some cases, i had to wonder if i'm talking chinese
[20:21] <troy_s> thorwil: But Google's approach appears to be plugging up the hole where real progress can be made.
[20:23] <thorwil> troy_s: funny that afaik the logo-type is based on the taste/whims of a single woman, without any justification behind it
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: Arguably better than the usual tripe we vet art and design by.
[20:24] <troy_s> thorwil: So I am torn on that.
[20:25] <troy_s> thorwil: Still, with zero creative minded numbers there is zero leadership or alternate opinion and the culture is encouraged down goofy paths.
[20:25] <kwwii> hey troy_s
[20:25] <troy_s> woutervddn: Your statement worried me.
[20:26] <kwwii> troy_s: been avoiding you, but you finally trapped me
[20:26] <troy_s> kwwii: Wow who is that!?
[20:26] <kwwii> :p
[20:26] <kwwii> some community member who thinks he knows everything
[20:26] <woutervddn> troy_s: which statement?
[20:26] <kwwii> so do we get to vote on what is included in ubuntu or what?
[20:26] <kwwii> :-)
[20:28] <troy_s> woutervddn: Two paths: try to bake a cake that -everyone- will love. Or try to bake a cake that no one will find offensive. Good luck to either case.
[20:28] <kwwii> ouch, this is one of those "big" discussions
[20:29] <thorwil> kwwii: nah, that's just troy_s's presence bending it
[20:29] <thorwil> ;)
[20:29] <kwwii> lol
[20:29] <woutervddn> lol
[20:30] <kwwii> troy_s and I argued about things continually, but I rarely ever said he was wrong
[20:31] <troy_s> It isn't like any of it is easy that is for certain. We have some colossal minds.
[20:31] <thorwil> would only lead to a question of what kind of wrong and in what context?
[20:32] <troy_s> Always and all.
[20:39] <troy_s> Well then.
[20:41] <troy_s> Vish thorwil how goes that list?
[20:41] <troy_s> vishwil.
[20:42] <thorwil> troy_s: people don't respond to feedback and one guy runs specification/task-creating amok
[20:42] <troy_s> thorwil: hrm. Is the goal of the briefs clear?
[20:42] <troy_s> Thor
[20:43] <troy_s> Grr
[20:43] <vish> troy_s: well, i'm loosing my cool today with the list and from what thorwil hints at, it might not be my first time … :s
[20:43] <troy_s> thorwil: As in who the briefs are intended for?
[20:44] <thorwil> troy_s: have fun: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0010_Alternate_Natty_Wallpapers?action=recall&rev=1
[20:44] <troy_s> vish: Hot headed vishy. I personally would think heated would be a nice change of pace. Shows a pulse.
[20:45]  * vish tries to meditate and be more like thorwil ;)
[20:45] <troy_s> thorwil: I think someone linked me to that before.
[20:45] <troy_s> thorwil: I am daft though. I don't get it.
[20:46] <woutervddn>  question, who comes up with the metaphors? :p
[20:46] <troy_s> woutervddn: Tough though. No constraints are no better.
[20:46] <vish> troy_s: it's just someone dreaming fairies and ponies there..   or maybe they took some fairy dust and thats what cause that..
[20:46] <thorwil> troy_s: welcome to the jbaer experience
[20:47] <thorwil> troy_s: thing is, he's using patterns he took from briefings i wrote
[20:47] <vish> One hell-of-a-ride! nice copy-paste work..
[20:47] <troy_s> vish: LOL. I am still stuck wondering why the list should exist at all. I think Cory n Co decided a while back it was for community artwork (no clue what that is)
[20:48] <vish> yea.. i would vote for closing it..
[20:48] <troy_s> thorwil: Hey that's good.
[20:48] <vish> thorwil: i expected another copy-paste work for the SC task, hence got to it before baer.. ;p
[20:49] <troy_s> Erm...
[20:49] <troy_s> Goal: Gooder.
[20:50] <thorwil> troy_s: much of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/0007_Xubuntu_Natty_Wallpaper is my work. the reason you find things like "It is not focused on any particular user group or case." is because you can't get anything else from the xubuntu folks
[20:50] <troy_s> Sadly, all attempts at progress seem bound to be lost due to low level semantic machinations. Assumptions that are clearly different.
[20:51] <troy_s> Ok... question.
[20:51] <troy_s> vish: What would you hope the role of Briefs would accomplish?
[20:51] <troy_s> thorwil: You too.
[20:52] <troy_s> woutervddn: You too. I made the assumption that vish and thorwil value and want them. Feel free to say that you don't feel they are necessary or such.
[20:52] <vish> well, IMO, it gives a better understanding of the client, than the task.. well we get a direction for the task, but more about the client..
[20:53] <thorwil> troy_s: a good brief defines the goal or goals. these must at least allow to decide for a marching direction, if the goals are not reachable in absolute terms
[20:53] <thorwil> goals for visual design fall back to goals of the project. where your beloved audience comes into play
[20:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Ok. Who are they there for? How does the who find them?
[20:54] <woutervddn> I agree with vish..
[20:55] <thorwil> troy_s: potential contributors. via the list, so far (maybe i get around to carry it elsewhere)
[20:55] <woutervddn> and thorwil :p
[20:55] <troy_s> thorwil: By who I mean "Who implements them and creates them" and "Who is desired to execute or engage them"
[20:56] <troy_s> thorwil: So list subscribers. Which brings merit to vish's desire to have a list announcement.
[20:57] <troy_s> thorwil: How many contributions have there been? Has there been overlap? In the case of an overlap of brief adoption, who resolves the overlap?
[20:59] <thorwil> troy_s: just a handful so far. always the same people
[21:00] <thorwil> troy_s: what overlap?
[21:00] <troy_s> thorwil: I ask because it seems yourself and vish are in somewhat of agreement. So what part of the structure hasn't been made clear to Mr. Baer or what part of his belief isn't clear to Mr. Vish and Mr. Wilms.
[21:01] <ivanka> thorwil: vish: hi!
[21:01] <ivanka> doctormo: you there too? Hello!
[21:01] <troy_s> thorwil: Because the frustration isn't likely to move things forward.
[21:01] <vish> ivanka: hey.. where is you magic wand..? ;)
[21:02] <vish> your*
[21:02] <ivanka> vish: not close at hand but I do have this: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/36WWXCF
[21:02] <ivanka> vish, want to take a look and feedback so we can send it out?
[21:03] <thorwil> hi ivanka
[21:03] <ivanka> thorwil: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/36WWXCF
[21:03] <vish> troy_s: not the brief, but the proposal for inclusion it is aimed at.. and the automatic assumption that it falls on the team to work on it..
[21:03] <vish> ivanka: neat!
[21:03] <troy_s> ivanka: Greetings.
[21:04] <ivanka> vish - it has no intro text, shall I include some?
[21:04] <ivanka> troy_s: good evening
[21:04] <vish> vish: yea, that would be nice, esp for someone coming directly to the page..
[21:04] <ivanka> okie dokes - will get on it
[21:05] <troy_s> vish: But the team is technically undefined. At some point it would seem that someone somewhere has to make a hard decision. Ombudsman.
[21:06] <troy_s> vish: It would seem the current "issue" is a lack of understanding. Who the briefs are for. Who fleshes them out. Etc. I am guessing the mighty Wiki hater / forger thorwil plays a large role.
[21:07] <troy_s> vish: Let's face it... the "team" in terms of core leadership is yourself and thorwil unless I am missing a glaring few names.
[21:08] <vish> troy_s: nah, basically what baer mentions already exists, but there havent been any wallpapers included in default, since there might not have been any good submissions yet.. so instead of looking at the existing task.. he just comes up with a whole new process..
[21:08] <troy_s> vish: What does "in default" mean?
[21:08] <thorwil> unfortunately, after barely managing to get http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/debconf-12-nicaragua-bid-logo/ out, i have to run!
[21:08] <thorwil> cya all!
[21:08] <troy_s> thorwil: See you thorwil.
[21:09] <vish> troy_s: he says, only fotos have been in additional community wallpapers, the ones that you blog about
[21:09] <vish> the 15-20 extra ones apart from the default..
[21:10] <troy_s> vish: Well let's be brutally realistic here... find me one illustrator with strong enough skills to warrant that. One.
[21:10] <woutervddn> guys I've got to run, good night all ;-)
[21:10] <vish> troy_s: exactly! there havent been good illustrations to include in the default.. *he* doesnt realize that..
[21:10] <troy_s> vish: I can think of exactly two libre software folks (with some degree of ties) that have the ability needed to create work that would be solid.
[21:11] <troy_s> vish: Andreas Beijer (bfa) and Alex Covics
[21:11] <troy_s> And no amount of contest driven submissions will attract them.
[21:11] <ivanka> vish: what about this?  http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/36WWXCF
[21:11]  * vish looks them up..
[21:12] <vish> ivanka: looks good! thanks. :)
[21:12] <troy_s> vish: Takes me back to the great debate that this should be about the people. Not the work.
[21:13] <vish> oh! it's 2:45 am here..!
[21:13] <troy_s> vish: night. I have to get ready for a screening anyways.
[21:13] <vish> troy_s: /me hits the sack as well.. catch you later.. nite.. :)
[21:13] <troy_s> vish: Email me vishy.
[21:13] <vish> sure …
[21:14] <ivanka> vish: am mailing that link to ubuntu artwork and ayatana
[21:14] <ivanka> will post to blog and tweet once I have seen what comes back
[21:15] <vish> ivanka: cool! we need to get people to spread the survey as well..
[21:15] <ivanka> yeah - will do that first thing
[21:15] <ivanka> vish - would be nice to see what responses we get just off these two lists first
[21:16] <vish> ivanka: yeah, right..
[21:16] <ivanka> vish: did I see you say it was 2.45am where you are?
[21:17] <ivanka> vish: catch you tomorrow :-)
[21:17] <vish> ivanka: yea.. later  :)
[21:17] <ivanka> vish: night!
[22:31] <doctormo> ivanka: yes, hello?