[00:52] Membership Review Board meeting for the America's is getting ready to start, just fyi [01:45] greg-g: what'd I miss, fill me in wrt: I understand, and I think it should be made clear to managers at Canonical that the membership boards are bound by a "sustained contribution" criteria :/ [01:45] will do, I'll get my log [01:46] jcastro: beuno is also going to send some email out === JanC_ is now known as JanC [06:16] hmm, i'm not sure i understand greg-g's logic there either.. by what he mentions on -meeting, every Canonical employee working for more than 6 months automatically qualifies for a membership? [06:17] how is it a /contribution/ when it is basically them doing their work? [06:20] well, not singling out greg-g.. but most of the Boards are a bit lax there.. IMO, Americas board has been a bit better with giving Memberships for Canonical employees [06:21] better == cautious [06:35] vish: I do agree that ubuntu membership is more than simply being employed by Canonical, but at the same time working on community items even during work hours because it's important for both the community and Canonical does count IMO. [06:36] Someone working on ubuntu-one probably wouldn't qualify, but someone on the Canonical marketing team might if they have sustained contributions to the community. [06:36] let's put it in other words, what different are they going to be doing in the next 2 months?.. for positions such as skeat's, we might as well just give out the memberships when they join Canonical, since she is pretty well going to have to stay atleast for 6 months ;) [06:39] doctormo: but very few people show community items (or atleast the few membership i had noticed) … like for example, if we took jcastro his work on askubuntu is community work, (among all the other non-work stuff he does for the community..) there are very few who have shown community participation. [06:43] vish: working in the community isn't just working in your spare time [06:43] * doctormo thinks askubuntu should count against a membership *tongue in cheek!!* [06:43] doctormo: yup, not about spare time.. but non-work items.. [06:43] lol! [06:43] No, even if Canonical employed someone to work on askubuntu, that counts [06:44] just because they're paid to do work, doesn't make it any less community. [06:45] doctormo: well, that's why i'm saying we can just combine Ubuntu memberships for Canonical employees ;) and there would be no such issue of when to accept or decide.. :) [06:45] the jobs which we consider community work.. [06:46] vish: Well no because Canonical employees aren't working in the community [06:46] well no many of them [06:46] In fact interestingly if you look at the numbers of programmers at Canonical and the number of them working on Ubuntu directly... it looks stark. [06:47] well, even UbuntuOne can qualify for membership, it does bring revenue to Canonical which in-turn supports Ubuntu.. [06:47] Another example is if there would be a second company, would we grant every employee of that company membership? [06:48] vish: Supporting ubuntu by proxy doesn't count, that can lead us to daft arguments especially as we can't actually see if it does bring in money as it's all behind doors. [06:50] hmm, right.. but if this is the norm, that if they work on "Ubuntu Membership worthy" stuff , just define those and hand out memberships when they join.. [06:52] vish: Then you simply hand Canonical control of membership and that's not supposed to be how it works [06:53] The community is supposed to decide for itself on a per case basis who has contributed in a sustained way [06:53] heh, but we aernt doing any better now.. we are just waiting and handing it out ;) [06:53] Imagine if the second ubuntu company offered a free hat to all members... it'd be hard to just give one to all Canonical put into a certain position. [06:54] Ah well, I can't comment on how it's done now, I don't know enough. [06:54] the way it seems now is, it's more of a formality and waiting for 6 months, rather than defining what their 'community' work is. [06:54] but i may be looking at the wrong part of their wiki too.. :) [06:55] I would have thought it was easy enough, [06:55] Any work done for me, is community work, any work done for jono is not ;-) [06:55] ;p [07:04] jono: just watched you on the bay area telly, weird [07:05] doctormo, cool :-) [07:05] * jono is drunk right now [07:05] ask me for my root password :P [07:05] nows my chance :) [07:05] I've recovered from my mai-thai I had before, I was wobbling on one drink. [07:05] jono, can i work for you please? :) [07:06] nisshh: but you do understand you get no pay :-P [07:06] nisshh would prolly accept pay in booze too.. ;) [07:08] doctormo, lol [07:08] vish, oh yeah, im australian, thats how we like our salaries :) [07:09] jono, your typing is very good for a drunk person on irc :) [07:09] nisshh, lol [07:10] :) [07:10] nisshh, yeah, Ia m a decent drunk typer it seems [07:10] jono, either that or your not that drunk :) [07:10] oh believe me, I am drunk :-) [07:10] hehe [07:11] multiple G+Ts is good [07:11] heh, where are you anyway jono? [07:11] jono: I like spiced tonic, 1/3 shot of dry gin, 1 pint of tonic water. [07:12] nisshh, at home [07:12] doctormo, good :) [07:12] oh right :) [07:12] nisshh, was out in the creek tonight with Adam [07:12] jono: What I think he means is, where have you been? [07:12] haha [07:12] who is my wife's ex-boyfriend, but one of my best friends :-) [07:13] doctormo, I went to a bunch of places in Walnut Creek [07:13] hehe [07:13] I love it when that sort of thing happens. [07:13] Is that like the cape is here? [07:13] jono, "the creek" being some large place you visit to get drunk? :) [07:13] Or is it more like the north shore... hmm, [07:14] nisshh, the creek is Walnut Creek [07:14] we went to a out five bars [07:14] a few drinks at each [07:14] ah, i see [07:14] anyhoo [07:14] I am headed to bed [07:14] you people are wonderful [07:14] :-) [07:15] all rule Ubuntu :-) [07:15] jono: All rule ubuntu! [07:15] jono: All rule ubuntu! [07:15] hehe [07:15] you know what, I am determined to make us wi [07:15] n [07:15] and bring FLOSS to the people [07:16] jono: Tomorrow I will get you to put one of my new posters up in your local library. [07:16] That will help with win [07:16] doctormo, bring it! [07:16] but first...bed [07:16] night, all! [07:16] night [07:16] * jono hugs everyone [07:59] morning all [08:09] morning folks [08:13] morning kim0 [08:13] good morning all [08:17] hello [08:35] hey duanedesign [08:39] aloha === ara_ is now known as ara [08:41] hey czajkowski [08:49] o/ [09:12] duanedesign: up late or early [09:55] nice post written by @undacuvabrutha http://is.gd/iTfvu [10:13] didn't realise the server team had lost 3 people [10:13] knew jos had gone [10:17] aye Open Stack did well :) [10:19] is that where they went? [10:19] along with soren [10:21] yup [10:52] bleh. someone broke planet u/chromium... [11:31] czajkowski: early :) [11:35] duanedesign: still up [11:35] lordie [11:36] went back to sleep for about an hour... [11:40] someone had a bad run in with MOTU https://twitter.com/kirrus/statuses/15731370626129920 [11:42] :( [11:43] i hear that a lot about Ubuntu Server, that people woould rather use Debian. [11:43] I have had great luck with Ubuntu on my server [11:45] nods [11:45] well hopefully Robbiew will fix that :) [11:45] possibly with another funky video [11:53] that was a good post robbie did [12:00] aye [12:07] good afternoon [12:12] hello sense [12:21] hi duanedesign [12:52] vish: no, that isn't what I mean (every canonical employee get membership after 6 mos) they need to show some kind of activity *outside* of their day-to-day job to get membership. She had that, but she didn't have the time within the Ubuntu community [12:54] greg-g: some argue that they don't have t have communuty interaction [13:00] greg-g, for the record, I don't think there is a policy that every Canonical employee gets Ubuntu membership after 6 months, where did you see that? [13:04] i dont think anyone is saying they do or should dpm [13:05] popey, yeah, I understand, and in fact I'm missing the context of the discussion, but I just saw that particular statement and I wanted to comment [13:05] i looks to me like the membership board are saying "We'd like to see contributions to the community outside their work in canonical, and for that to be sustained for a lengthy period - something like 6 months" [13:05] ok [13:06] dpm: I didn't say that, I was responding to vish's comment that I did as well, and I didn't :) [13:06] 04:21 < robbiew> wow...so you all blocked skaet because she hasn't been involved for 6mo....KNOWING in 2 more months she's practically automatic....seriously people...I'm all for not automatically approving Canonical employees, but she's the damn release manager! I quote from the Ubuntu wiki on membership, "While there is [13:06] no precise period hat we look for, it is rare for applications to be accespted from people contributing for less [13:06] was the comment left in -meeting after board meeting [13:06] ok, thanks everyone for providing the context, that's much clear now :-) [13:07] the "bar" for membership should be the same for canonical and non-canonical people [13:07] sorry, I'm in the middle of getting ready for work, so I can't fully be in this conversation right now, even though I want to be :/ [13:07] the fact that someone gets paid to work on ubuntu is largely irrelavent, it's what the individual does [13:07] sorry greg-g, another time [13:28] greg-g: nah.. not singling you there... :) but in general the Americas board, I'm not fully clear as to where there was a community participation in that application.. it was basically her Canonical work she has listed there and every testimonial is again only from a Canonical Employee, i couldnt find "contributions to the community outside their work in canonical" and any Community interaction either.. [13:29] so,though you are avoiding, in the end it just seemed like work for 6months and get a membership.. [13:30] s/avoiding/declining [13:30] are canonical people not members of the community? [13:30] nah.. , but there doesnt seem to be interaction with anyone apart from them [13:31] sorry, let me be clear, I'm asking if you (vish) believe that people who work for canonical are _not_ part of the Ubuntu community, and you're saying "no, they're not"? [13:34] popey: well, IMO, there is a difference, how few members get Ubuntu membership/employed at Canonical. some might have done earlier Ubuntu work and get employed at Canonical due to those efforts.. some join Canonical *and* do community work apart from their daily work, they are Ubuntu members … [13:35] popey: what i'm saying is.. being a canonical employee, and working on Ubuntu Platform/Kernel/Desktop, doesnt necessarily automatically make them Ubuntu members [13:37] I don't think we're talking about automatic membership here at all. [13:37] Just the issue of people who work _full_ _time_ on Ubuntu getting rejected _because_ they are Canonical employees. [13:38] which is what I think I'm seeing [13:39] well, that's another advantage for a Canonical employee.. at 4 months is , come back in 6 months, (it's mentioned that we are making sure they are not just spending holiday time in Ubuntu) but what rationale does it have for a canonical employee? further for the community member that is very hard to have done those 10 tasks, but for a Canonical employee, they can do it in 3months and 1month vacation, it's their work and it's easier for them [13:39] to complete those tasks.. [13:40] err, *when a community member applies at 4.. [13:40] "making sure they are not just spending holiday time in Ubuntu"? seriously? [13:40] if someone spends 6 weeks of their summer holiday working on/for Ubuntu you would reject them based on them having done it during their holidays? [13:40] popey: yes, that was the response given while rejecting a few members.. [13:41] it doesn't matter how 'easy' it is for them to make their contribution [13:41] they said, it's to make sure that its not just for those months and that they have sustained interest.. [13:42] we're not measuring the difficulty of tasks, but the amount of contribution, the reach, the value of that contribution [13:42] I can understand that to some degree [13:42] however that's covered by "sustained" in the member pages [13:44] popey: yea, i just meant the "10 tasks" as a way to quantify and compare , but similar for the amount of contribution.. [13:46] anywho.. just something i had noticed.. ;) [13:57] hmmm [14:01] morning [14:10] jcastro: ello ello [14:14] ok so I don't see the big deal, she waits another 2-3 months and that outta be enough? [14:15] yup [14:16] also, I don't think the "do other stuff" applies in this case [14:16] I can see if say, I work on some non-ubuntu related thing at Canonical [14:16] well then, why wait? she is employed and has to be doing the work anyway? [14:16] and I apply for ubuntu membership, then I should be showing some sort of effort other than working at Canonical [14:17] but in kate's case, she works fulltime on Ubuntu release management [14:17] popey: usually on the americas board when a canonical employee comes up we ask if they're involved with their loco [14:18] as do we on the emea rmb [14:18] but it's not a reason not to get membership if they aren't imo [14:18] (that was in response to Just the issue of people who work _full_ _time_ on Ubuntu getting rejected _because_ they are Canonical employees. [14:18] right [14:18] for the same reason you wouldn't deny someone who did only LoCos and didn't hack on Ubuntu [14:19] Ubuntu LoCo == Ubuntu work.. [14:19] hacking on Ubuntu falls more under the MOTU membership stuff.. [14:19] or the core dev.. [14:19] if id been there last night i probably would've +1'd her because i remember her going to debconf and so interacting with upstream [14:19] depends on the hacking [14:20] maco: yea, when I saw her application I :-/ when I see she didn't mention debconf [14:22] maco: there was also some question that she only applied for membership b/c she was 'recommended' to by others and not b/c she actually wanted membership [14:23] i was getting my first sleep in ....52 hours at the time [14:23] though the more interesting thing I'm wondering is how many people who work on Ubuntu /haven't/ applied for membership [14:23] who work at Canonical I mean [14:23] jcastro: good point, for example beuno and I told Marianna she should apply for membership. . . [14:23] but she told us she didn't feel her contributions to the comunity were enough [14:24] yest she's been organizing UDSes and other events for awhile and also knows most of the Italian Loco team [14:24] yeah [14:25] well, the process appears to be the same for both employees and non-employees, as long as that's fine then we're good [14:25] just a month or two short and missing a debconf bullet [14:25] that's fixable [14:25] right, like I said, just based on her application and what she said in the meeting, if she had not been a canonical employee we would have asked her to come back [14:26] now if folks like maco were also there to speak up for her contributions, that would of helped also [14:26] yea [14:26] she hasnt mentioned the LoCo work either.. :s [14:27] though I for one thought that any recommendation by cjwatson in anything was an automatic +1, hah [14:27] haha [14:27] she should have shown someone the application, before applying. they could have poke her to mention her LoCo and debconf works.. [14:27] pkoed* [14:27] there certainly are names I see in testimonials which make me think "I really don't need to read much more" [14:27] cjwatson is one of them [14:27] jcastro: i once got a "go ahead" on a patch from cjwatson and it had to be reverted. while i think this is super-rare, he's apparently not infallible either! [14:28] popey: me too [14:28] maco: yeah, heh [14:28] well, an extra few months is no big deal, affirmation that the process is working is a bigger win I think [14:29] jcastro: msm and clan are other prime examples of folks who have done some awesome work in ubuntu yet neither would think to apply for membership [14:30] dinda: and maria too when she was doing the store [14:30] jcastro: I fear they, an others, may feel b/c they are not developers or 'technical' types they don't qualify [14:30] I just encourage people to do it all the time [14:31] jcastro: me too, yet they seem to see 'community' as completely separate from their work on Ubuntu . . . [14:31] jcastro: hehe, folks usually apply when they realize they want the IRC cloak or the @ubunu.com id , so just ask them that . ;p [14:31] also interesting how they say, they're not worthy somehow [14:31] I'll see msm soon, I will talk to her [14:33] and Maria's work on ship it and sending out CDs to loco teams too should make her a shoe in [14:33] yeah [14:33] she's moved on from the store though [14:34] vish: canonical employees automatically get the @ubuntu.com, whether members or not [14:34] maco: nope.. hence skaet is applying.. [14:34] it used to be that way iirc [14:34] did this change? [14:34] it was a bug or something [14:35] when dinda and i first joined the rmb she noticed that the people coming to us already had ubuntu.com email addresses [14:35] I know it used to be that way for a long time [14:35] I think it was just the way the email/IS thing was set up [14:35] wonder how it went so long with nobody noticing [14:36] maco: it's been noticed and was brought up on one the mailing list and mark already said if it's needed it's fine [14:36] if a canonical needs @ubuntu.com address to get things done fine [14:36] which is a bit unfair to community folks who also feel they need to to be seen as offical. [14:37] and I don't get why it's preferred for someone to use an @ubuntu.com addy for their contribution instead of canonical.com? [14:38] * vish doesnt either. the @canonical.com seems more official.. [14:38] the whole 'canonical doesn't contribute' thing; it would make sense for more of us to use canonical.com addys for 'counting' purposes - very confused [14:38] dinda: in code and changelogs it's supposed to be canonical.com [14:38] dinda: oh! they do that when submitting patches in bugzilla, they mostly use the @canonical id [14:39] ^^ right [14:39] jcastro: that's what I thought but kate indicated last night she needed the @ubuntu addy for such things [14:39] hmmm [14:40] maco: btw - congrats on finishing the semester! [14:40] dinda: thanks but i still have 2 more exams [14:41] maco: ugh, good luck then [14:43] bad jono! , when kenvandine got declined the Core dev membership, seb128 literally fought for it.. where is jono .. ;p [14:46] jcastro: I want silbs to go for membership [14:46] +1!!!!!!!!! [14:47] that's a great question AlanBell - wonder why she's never done it? [14:48] AlanBell: yeah, tell me about it [14:48] I'd vouch for her :) [14:48] I whined to ivanka too but she just never finds the time. [14:51] vish: give the man a break will you, jono deserves a day off! [14:54] czajkowski: do you have the dates yet for that education event you were planning for next year? mid-year I think [14:55] dinda: April um..... [14:55] I think kate wanted @ubuntu.com for the release announcement. Would you rather see the release of another version of ubuntu done by @canonical.com or @ubuntu.com? [14:56] james_w: I really dont care where the email address comes from tbh.... [14:56] if we can focus on going forward, it seems like there are some Canonical folks who would appreciate some assistance with their wiki pages and understanding what the membership boards are looking for [14:56] czajkowski: :-D [14:56] james_w: yeah, makes no difference really [14:57] dinda: 12th April [14:57] dinda: also Education 2011 ICT Conference (16th June 2011) in Lond [14:57] London [14:57] czajkowski: the 12 april event is in Dublin? [14:58] james_w: also a reason for membership just for an email address fo annoucement doesnt really cut it, same way I've seen the reson to have a blog on planet ubuntu is weak [14:58] dinda: nope april 12th is UK London [14:58] none in ireland I'm afraid [14:58] czajkowski: drat, I'm looking for an excuse to go to Ireland :) [14:58] well czajkowski is english now, after all! [14:58] * maco ducks and runs [14:58] maco: Always been half my dear :) [14:59] dinda: sorry! [14:59] czajkowski: i thought your accent was gonna come beat me :P [14:59] czajkowski, I'm not saying it should be justification. I'm saying that I would prefer it to come from @ubuntu.com [14:59] did your accent turn english yet? [14:59] james_w: I dont see how an announcement coming from any address makes a difference.... [14:59] why would it [15:00] james_w: why? [15:00] maco: nope I have my Irish accent :) [15:00] because it's an effort of the whole Ubuntu community, not just Canonical [15:00] james_w: what possible reason could there be [15:00] james_w: plenty of time before the release, I am sure it will do, not that it matters [15:01] james_w: but if the notice is coming from someone who only wants membership for that reason, seems a bit disingenuous (sp?) [15:02] dinda: +1 [15:02] right [15:02] dinda: i think you spelled it right [15:02] its not jumping out at me [15:02] maco: it's ;) [15:02] james_w: does the announcement have to come from the release mgr? could it be designated to someone with the 'right' addy? [15:03] meh apostrophes are for real writing [15:03] there is no imminent release announcement! [15:03] dinda, it could come from anyone, but I think the release manager would be disappointed not to be able to do it [15:03] why the wait then? skaet is going to be release manager come April, if she already has shown the community work , and if the only reason membership is deferred is to make sure the member logs it the minimum time, she is going to be doing it anyway, its just a bureaucracy preventing right now.. [15:04] if we are deferring for a community member, it makes more sense, since we want to make sure they have sustained effort.. [15:04] vish: because it was the boards call. If there is not a standard set somewhere where do we draw the line [15:04] vish: and you can't say what will happen tomorrow, she might win the lottery and quit her job [15:04] so 6 months is a line, fine. why keep pushing and kicking up a fuss, in 2 months time or whenever she can re apply [15:04] vish: also what if she gives up tomorrow. :) [15:04] dinda: lol! :) [15:05] "I've had enough of these people!" [15:05] j/k [15:05] her wiki page looks quite strong to me https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KateStewart [15:05] vish: it's also not fair for people not on the boards to point fingers and tel the boards they were wrong. It's a judgement call. [15:05] I'm sure even if she wins the lottery she'll keep hanging with us ;) [15:05] AlanBell: seen a lot stronger tbh. it's nice but I've seen more detailed ones [15:05] yeah we should never secondguess the boards [15:05] but the board does decide based on what people have done, not what they intend to do [15:05] they're there to make the call [15:05] jcastro: aye which I do feel is what people are doing today [15:05] czajkowski: nah, i'm not pointing fingers, more of trying to understand the process [15:06] czajkowski: I have seen a lot of nearly empty canonical ones, I was checking it wasn't one of them [15:06] vish: not how it's coming across tbh [15:06] discussion helps us all, I think [15:06] I like talking [15:06] tbh had I viewed it last one I'd have been a 0 on it [15:06] vish: it is "significant and sustained", not "significant and will be sustained" [15:06] czajkowski: well, tbh it is.. :) [15:07] although future plans are part of what can go on the wiki page [15:07] czajkowski: I'd be totally doomed to if I had to reapply, hahah [15:07] and how they answer questions is important too [15:07] the board didn't actually vote [15:07] I'm glad we're discussing at how difficult it is rather than how easy it is [15:07] * popey is also of the opinion that release announcements should come from a @ubuntu.com address if nothing else than to stop people on the outside from claiming some hidden meaning in it [15:08] (sorry, just got back from shops) [15:08] popey: worried about your friends at boycottnovell again? [15:08] (sorry, had to go there) [15:08] czajkowski: actually i dint find community work in skaet's wiki, but others here mention more community work she has done but not wirtten.. [15:08] written* [15:08] haha [15:08] yeah she's missing the debconf bits [15:14] hey so last night DBO wanted to do this: [15:14] http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/en0ti/i_am_an_ubuntu_unity_developer_ama/ [15:14] and I said roll with it! [15:14] what do you all think? [15:15] jcastro: DBO ? [15:15] jason smith [15:15] i know what bdo is but not dbo :P [15:15] http://castrojo.wordpress.com/2010/04/20/presentation_attire/ [15:15] this guy [15:15] I didnt know who dbo is [15:15] someone on identica claims I do [15:15] started out in compiz [15:16] ahhh [15:16] then docky, now does unity [15:16] the dorky kid [15:16] why is he called dbo? [15:16] oh, that's his nick on irc :) [15:17] popey: people aren't being rejected because they're canonical employees, we have turned down traditional community members for not having the sustained contribution requirement met, in our view [15:17] Not everyone's nick is the same as their RealName [15:17] * Pici looks at the people currently active here [15:17] Pici: ;) [15:17] popey: (sorry, I should respond to one ine ina backlog without reading the rest) :) [15:18] ahem, I'd like some help. Sugggestions on what to do at an Ubuntu BoF seeing that we are the -community-team :) [15:18] shouldn't* [15:18] popey: Shouldn't,that is [15:18] Pici: with exception of you, they're close though! [15:18] Pici: people have been saying "@dbo" which doesn't make sense because that's not his twitter/identica account afaict [15:18] popey: i dont think he tweets even [15:19] jcastro: did you want some link tweet love ? [15:19] czajkowski: I tweeted about it yesterday, but I think he's spent now [15:19] it was more of a live event [15:19] ah ok sorry [15:20] * vish never understood what reddit is.. looks closer [15:21] vish: like digg [15:22] vish: bring your sense of humor [15:22] it's very "loose" [15:22] anyway what do y'all think of the information gathered there, useful for people? [15:24] i have an account on reddit, never really got into it though, im more of an identica dude :) [15:24] jcastro: not bad [15:24] nisshh: popey loves identica [15:25] I do! [15:25] I just hate the lunatics that inhabit it [15:25] LOL [15:25] popey: I'll have you know I take great offence at that I am not a lunatic :) I'm Irish [15:26] you're 50% lunatic [15:26] jcastro, i know, im subscribed to popey :) [15:26] popey: hello pot :) [15:26] er, I'm 100% [15:26] popey, wait, so im a lunatic? [15:26] :) [15:26] you can strive to be as loony as me czajkowski but you'll never get there [15:27] lol [15:27] its a worthy target [15:27] s/target/ambition [15:28] oh, sorry, I appear to have used the wrong word! [15:28] I said "Lunatic" when I meant "Gorgeous" [15:28] silly me, always get those two confused [15:28] Haha [15:28] popey: bless you are special. we shall have to have some random drinks night down our way in the new year! [15:28] hehe [15:28] Is it just me or planet css broken? [15:28] http://havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/ [15:28] czajkowski: yes! [15:29] haha that is awesome popey [15:29] meeting a new person last night from the ML gave me a different perspective on how people feel on the list when they don't meet people [15:29] often shy and dont know they can post saying meeet at X place at y time [15:29] jcastro: had you not seen it before? [15:29] heh, there is a "petition" to Mark somewhere too.. [15:29] yeah, it's got about 3 people on it doesn't it? [15:29] popey: no [15:30] alan@bishop:/srv/havethebuttonsmovedbackyet.com/www$ ls *.png [15:30] maybe.png no.png oldno.png possibly.png yes.png [15:30]