[02:59] okay, so I've got a small Python+Gtk app, now I want to make sure it's accessible, where should I start? [03:06] mhall119, heh maybe by reading hajour 's wiki :D [03:06] hehe [03:07] attachment accessibility [03:07] hee Cheri703 [03:08] mhall119, font size scalable ? suitable for simon ? braille ? speech dispatcher ? dasher ? [03:08] color schemes === Cheri703_ is now known as Cheri703 [03:09] what sort of app is it mhall119 ? [03:11] UndiFineD: no font, it's a panel with buttons [03:11] buttons have tooltips though [03:11] UndiFineD: got a link to hajour's wiki? [03:12] does it plug-in with dbus / at-spi ? [03:12] not any part that I did [03:12] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour [03:12] I thought gtk was already at-spi enabled [03:13] well, I am not sure, but I think that is needed to have text read out to you [03:13] I'll have to test it with orca [03:14] be sure that colors are not close to another, for some red and green is same [03:14] it should be using just the gtk theme [03:14] like black on black [03:15] do you have a screenshot ? [03:15] it would make it easier :) [03:15] yeah, one second [03:15] http://img718.imageshack.us/i/xdglauncher.png/ [03:16] bottom panel [03:16] mhall119, make the colors from the applications must be contrast from each other and background [03:16] it's just gtk buttons, I'm not doing any special visual stuff, so if the user's theme is visually accessible, then mine should be the same [03:17] I just wasn't sure if there was something I had to do to make the button's tooltip text available to screen readers [03:17] or what other accessible considerations I need to think of [03:18] the first icon, orange and yellow are to close to eachother [03:18] that's the applications icon though, from it's .desktop file [03:19] I'm not sure if there's an accessible icon theme that would have an alternative [03:19] are there any good accessible icon themes? [03:19] the fourth icon, brain, might noth be recognisable as one , lines are maybe to fine [03:19] again, I didn't make the art, I'm just displaying the icon specified in the app's .desktop file [03:20] the sudoku icon, purple on grey is hard to make out [03:20] I do not know if there are accessible icons [03:20] and the actual buttons show will depend on the runtime parameters, this app will show any set of items from the menu [03:20] the screenshot is just it running against the /Games menu [03:21] hajour: do you know or any good accessible icon themes? [03:21] mhall119, hajour is my gf :) [03:22] that wouldn't preclude her from knowing of any ;) [03:22] true [03:22] i talk to UndiFineD he typ what i say [03:22] ah, ok, see that would make a difference [03:22] did I meet either of you at UDS-N? [03:23] I was remotely there, listening to a lot of sessions [03:23] ok [03:23] I'm the guy making Qimo [03:23] you probably heard me talking as several points [03:23] i am just here from 30-11-2010 on ubuntu [03:23] very likely [03:24] after much persuasion [03:24] for the accessibility part [03:24] hajour, has now become actively involved [03:24] mhall119, is it possible to design new icons here? [03:25] mhall119, so you do a lot for kids stuff [03:25] that must be fun [03:25] i have set up the speechcontrol team 7 ore 8 days ago [03:25] hajour: possible, but time would be a constraint [03:25] UndiFineD: it is :) [03:25] we have four of our own [03:26] heh, no thanks, 2 is plenty [03:26] we got 4 girls [03:26] :D [03:26] hajour: if I do any custom icons, it'll only cover the default games we include in Qimo [03:26] hajour: oh, I'm so sorry [03:26] boys are easier [03:27] lol [03:27] well, that's what I'm told anyway [03:27] both of mine are a handful [03:27] hehe [03:27] one of each [03:27] unless they fight ... [03:27] but MichelleQ has probably already told you about them [03:27] have you a link from icons mhall119 ? [03:27] unless? there's a time when they don't fight? how does that happen? [03:27] hajour: what do you mean? [03:28] a link where icons stand to look ore there are good icons to use what we already have [03:28] mhall119, yes, they do not fight when they think you 're not around [03:28] UndiFineD: not mine [03:29] then suddenly they can be sweet [03:29] i just set up my angry eyes hehe [03:29] hajour: my app just pulls entries from the menu, and displays the same icon and text used by the menu [03:29] my apps doesn't itself have any artwork [03:29] so an accessible icon theme ... :) [03:29] I have to charter some artists [03:32] we go look what we can do mhall119 [03:33] thanks, I appreciate the help [03:33] already busy with it [03:33] your welcome [03:33] I know charlie-tca was looking for a new icon theme for xubuntu, so maybe he's seen some that are better than others [03:33] ok I will ask when I see him [03:34] we let you now when we know more mhall119 :) [03:34] i just cal you then in this room :) [03:35] sure, I'll stay logged in [03:35] ore UndiFineD [03:35] til later mhall119 :) [03:35] good night [03:36] good night mhall119 [03:46] hajour: you have dyslexia? [03:46] yes she does [03:47] so do our daughters [03:47] and ech somewhat differs :P [03:47] I'm thinking of using this font as the default for Qimo: http://www.sil.org/computing/catalog/show_software.asp?id=119 [03:47] it's supposed to help make reading easier for people with dyslexia [03:47] and also early-readers in general [03:48] but, I'm not really sure how to test to make sure that's true [03:48] I tried using it myself, and found it decent enough [03:49] also, it has the option to use different glyphs for some letters, to make them less similar, but I'm not sure which alternates are good [03:50] it is playful [03:50] just changed my titlebars into it [03:50] http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?&item_id=andika has some examples [03:52] our eldest daughter would have trouble with it [03:52] too many curves make the letters seem as one [03:54] letters seem to dance [03:54] is it more curvy than most? [03:54] how about the new Ubuntu font, how's that for dyslexics? [03:54] we mostly use Ubuntu font :) [03:54] really nice [03:54] okay, maybe I'll use that [03:55] I'll probably include both at least [03:55] just not sure which to use as default [03:55] not too small letters [03:55] 12px is alright [03:55] ok [03:55] I liked andika's spacing, it seemed to give letters more room [03:56] especially in the vertical space [03:56] but I find the font bugging around 14px [03:56] the ubuntu font you mean? [03:56] yep [03:56] half letters [03:56] :( [03:57] like the g [03:57] i use font size 16 [03:57] the curl at the bottom is sometimes lost [03:59] UndiFineD, already reported that [13:13] AlanBell: no more bugs on website stuff (this includes wiki), remember? this was why we needed a liason with the design team. Someone needs to poke alejandra about it [14:04] oops [14:06] AlanBell: s'cool. I'm going to talk to phillw about it when he gets online [14:08] Pendulum, that might be a while, i think he just fell asleep [14:11] I kind of wanted to point out the same issues being raised by other people independently [14:12] and tell those who raised them that it is a known problem [14:12] Pendulum, AlanBell here is head_victim :) [14:12] Hi? [14:13] he might be able to help as phillw is out [14:13] What's the problem? [14:13] UndiFineD: phillw is supposed to be liasing with the desgin team on website issues. that's why I'm poking him [14:15] so ... head_victim cannot help in this ? [14:15] UndiFineD: no. [14:15] sorry head_victim [14:15] :( [14:15] That's ok [21:33] AlanBell, can i talk to you for a moment.its not about the speechcontrol but about accessibility.:) [21:37] sure hajour [21:38] AlanBell, i was ask to give advice to mhall119 .for his small Python+Gtk app [21:38] ok [21:39] what does it do? [21:39] but he need other buttons on that.because of this . a light purple background on a button application with a almost same light color. [21:40] http://img718.imageshack.us/i/xdglauncher.png/ [21:40] colorblind can not see that [21:40] accessible icons [21:41] so i was asking in design for a advice where to find other icons [21:41] but i get no respons at all [21:41] ok, firstly there is a totally awesome compiz plugin for simulating colour blindness [21:41] so you can see what a colour blind person would see [21:41] accessible tooltips [21:42] sometimes you can fix an image by tweaking the color balance and adjusting the level of blue or something like that [21:42] there where 24 persons in that room and i know a part of them where here on ubuntu doing things [21:42] a ok [21:43] wikimedia commons is a great source of Free artwork and icons [21:43] because there is need to be greater contrast true the colors [21:43] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nuvola_icons [21:43] thank you AlanBell [21:44] mhall119, are you watching this ? [21:44] ii know what they can see.i have asked when i was young on my cousin.he is colorblind [21:45] protanopia is the most common type, that is a lack of perception of red [21:45] so as long as two colours have different blue and green values they can be seen [21:46] but this link is very useful to give to people who need to change ore choose this kind of things [21:47] AlanBell, just a idea.but why not mail the link to everyone in ubuntu [21:48] I don't think everyone would like that [21:50] people who now not yet make things because they have not have enough knowledge.are possible later in time do make things/programs enz [21:51] that is what the personas are for [21:51] educational outreach to developers [21:51] then it is good to put this link to the faisal persona i think [21:52] if i remember good he was colorblind [21:52] there is information on that one already about the compiz plugin [21:53] the Nuvola stuff has no special significance relating to colour blindness, just a bunch of pretty icons [21:53] yes it was faisal .just have checkt [21:55] stil mhall119 was not knowing about it and he is in the accessibility team if i am correct [21:56] AlanBell: my problem is that I'm displaying .desktop entries [21:56] which supply their own icon [21:56] i think it should be useful to have a page for that where that is put in [21:57] so I would need an entire and complete accessible icon theme [21:57] which I don't think is feasible at this point [21:57] i have asked in design but i dont have get any respons [21:57] mhall119: ah, gotcha [21:57] mostly I wanted to make sure my apps was navigable/discoverable with screen readers [21:57] ok, have you tried running it with orca? [21:58] hajour: it would have to cover any icon any app could possibly choose, far too large in scope [21:58] AlanBell: not yet, I've never used Orca before [21:58] ok, give it a go, it is tricky [21:59] I would like to make this stuff simple enough for sighted people to use [21:59] okay, upon running orca, it asks for the desired speech server, default, espeak or dummy [21:59] espeak [21:59] or default [21:59] enable echo by word? [21:59] what does that mean? [21:59] mhall119: you should at this point turn off your monitor [22:00] orca isn't even configured yet [22:00] echo by word is having it read back to you what you type when you hit space [22:00] ok [22:00] mhall119: tough! [22:01] oh geez, I've got to log out of gnome now? [22:02] man, if orca is the pinnacle of accessibility, y'all got your work cut out for you huh? [22:02] fraid so [22:02] okay, let me log out and back in and see what happens [22:02] mm AlanBell is the bug already fixt from orca with the echo? [22:03] hajour: I don't know about that bug [22:04] you 2 the same words true each other [22:04] i have told it and it should reported.i not know how to tell in a bug report [22:05] to explain [22:05] can you make a recording of it? [22:05] its not only by use but i have heard many complain about that [22:05] okay, orca is consuming 100% cpu [22:05] and audio is like talking on a cell phone in 1980 [22:05] UndiFineD, says he go to try it [22:06] AlanBell, I can try, but chance is high I get logged out in an hour, so need to save stuff first [22:06] he is busy with it now [22:07] o yes that happend the last time we where running orca [22:07] mhall119: the audio is a bit rubbish, in theory it should be possible to use a much higher quality voice, one that would not fit on the standard CD [22:07] okay, I'm killing orca [22:07] mhall119: sometimes killing and then restarting at-spi-registryd will fix the 100% cpu thing [22:07] I haven't been able to understand a word it's said [22:07] yes because of the echo mhall119 [22:07] it should start with "welcome to orca" [22:07] And this is the best we have for the blind user! [22:07] mmm yes [22:08] thats why we are busy with the new speechprogram AlanBell UndiFineD and i [22:08] aand the rest of the team [22:09] we all working hard about it [22:09] charlie-tca, i have asked for help in science but also there i get no respons [22:10] i mean if they have no time then its polite to say that i think [22:11] In the meantime, we do have to have orca for the users, though [22:11] then the echo have to be fixed and the crash after using orca from the pc [22:12] I get like 1/4 second sound whenever I put my mouse over something [22:12] it mostly just sounds like a tapping [22:12] in the orca preferences you can tell it not to speak the object under the mouse [22:12] I have used orca, there are many adjustments available in it. I have not gotten the echo, myself [22:12] now we have a big chance i am ofline here in a few time because orca is running now [22:13] so far I haven't managed to get anything that doesn't sound like random noice [22:13] noise [22:13] i have heard many complains about that charlie-tca the echo from people [22:14] same here mhall119 [22:14] let me record a bit, it isn't *that* bad [22:14] UndiFineD, has just lost his desktop now because of orca [22:14] okay, so this is going to sound harsh, but if orca is this bad, is there really any point in me spending time worrying about my app working with it? [22:15] AlanBell: on my laptop it is [22:15] after starting from audio [22:16] :( UndiFineD is busy to try to fix his pc now [22:16] Orca is only important if you are calling it accessible [22:16] you say it should say "Welcome to Orca" [22:16] ok, no way to record audio ... after starting audacity ocra crashed [22:16] I get "weh" and that's it [22:16] I just restarted at-spiregistryd as suggested [22:17] it is 23:16 when it happened, so in an hour I expect to be logged out [22:17] hold crap the man page for at-spi-registryd is all kinds of messed up [22:18] i have told it often but if they dont believe you .it has no use to repeat it every time thought [22:19] so that means in about a hour UndiFineD is not here anymore because of orca [22:19] mm it just happend [22:20] faster then we thought [22:20] http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/orca.ogg [22:21] AlanBell: is that faster than default? [22:21] no [22:21] I am not a speed listener [22:22] I understand some blind people can listen at x6 [22:22] sorry but i cant hear a word from it.yes i hear sound but its not understandable [22:22] I seem to listen slow here [22:22] hajour: it gets more understandable later in the file when I tweak the preferences a bit [22:22] I can understand almost every word. Perhaps it is not orca but the speakers? [22:23] oh and that is a bit of a rubbish recording [22:23] I just pointed my webcam at the speakers and recorded via audacity [22:23] AlanBell: that's about 100x better than what I was getting [22:23] and then the fact the crash from the pc here wo have running orca jut a moment ago.and that is the second time this happend [22:24] the speakers and sound card can make a difference, I believe. [22:25] Of three speaker sets, I have one that is almost clear with orca, even though I can hear music from all three sets. [22:26] we have a surround speakers on the pc from UndiFineD [22:26] o/ [22:26] I love orca for this [22:26] Does the voice always come from the same speaker on those, or does it bounce around? [22:26] this happens to me every time [22:27] yes, orca will crash the system ... [22:27] it was not the second i just heard from UndiFineD but a lot more times [22:27] espeak works find on the command line [22:27] orca only comes from the 3 front speakers [22:27] but orca doesn't get past the firsy syllable [22:28] and I rarely get more than just a tapping sound [22:28] orca must be good for all people not a few [22:30] the really weird part is I get logged out, why does it do that .. I have 3,5 GB memory and always enough too spare [22:31] it is not CPU power [22:31] I wonder what is really conflicting for you? [22:31] I have an offboard audio card recently bought creative one [22:31] Have you filed a bug for it? and is there a valgrind and stacktrace for it? [22:33] does orca even work with Xfce? [22:33] or is it Gnome only? [22:33] yes, it works with xfce [22:34] no crash report [22:34] I gotta be honest, this hasn't made me eager to focus on accessibility [22:34] :( [22:35] doesn't make people eager to be blind either [22:35] yeah, having a choice makes my life easier, I know [22:35] mhall119, we (our team ) are working on it many hours for the new speechprogram [22:35] but my time is still finite, and I can either work towards attainable goals, or unattainable ones [22:35] AlanBell, have put in also many hours for that [22:36] hajour: what's it written in? [22:36] mhall119, most likely to be an extention on simon listens [22:36] oooh, I have openMary working [22:36] we should appreciate if the 1 from vedix would help us with a part [22:36] c / c++ / python [22:37] great AlanBell [22:37] mm sorry vedics [22:37] mhall119: attainable goals are the best ones [22:37] well, I can offer help on the python part of it [22:37] mhall119: and you can ask here for other people to test your applications [22:38] that should be wonderful mhall119 [22:38] thanks AlanBell [22:38] I happily crash again :P [22:38] lol [22:38] I've got to rename my application, then I'll ask for testers [22:38] I have 4 fantastic voices working [22:38] although one does sound a bit stoned [22:39] lol [22:41] o btw if it is necessary the European part of ubuntu is willing to help with the voices.many country s [22:42] already have talked about it [22:42] for encase when it is time it can be done [22:43] just for information [22:44] hehe if i am not in chat from speechcontrol i do that sort of things [22:44] http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/openmary.ogg [22:45] you can hear me typing the text for the next voice as I go through all four [22:48] first voice sounded better.second voice is echoing.third is very high not very convertible,fourth sounded like a very depressed person :P [22:48] * AlanBell adds a fifth voice [22:50] they are all a bit better than the recording indicates [22:51] actually with openMary it is an emotional engine so you can probably cheer them up a bit (not kidding) [22:52] you can adjust how positive/negative they are being, passive/active and dominant/submissive [22:53] UndiFineD: orca --debug --debug-file=debug.txt and add it to the bug report [22:53] Just attach the debug.txt file [22:54] mmm it sounds better on my eeepc orca then by UndiFineD his pc its terrible [22:55] mm dutch ia not understandable on orca [22:55] its terrible [22:56] dont be angry XD i just report it . [22:56] that pins it down to a language, instead of just saying orca is bad. [22:57] but its in english to on UndiFineD his pc charlie-tca [22:57] english terrible on UndiFineD his pc [22:57] lol, debug files have disappeared [22:57] le poof [22:57] There is a bug report at gnome bugzilla to try and get better voices in it, I will try to find it [22:58] so that is not to pin on language [22:58] huh? no file at all... [22:58] none [22:58] pfff [22:59] Well, unless you get the orca developers to your pc, they won't be able to find the cause of that, then. [22:59] http://paste.ubuntu.com/545759/ [23:00] a ok AlanBell i dit not know that from the emotional part.i was not come so far .because i tryed to get it understandable [23:00] that has the traceback in it. Attach to bug report, lets see what we can do with it [23:01] UndiFineD: make sure to include which version of ubuntu that is, and add apt-cache policy python version [23:02] Undifined just is gone by orca again :( [23:02] i hate sharks :P [23:03] o/ [23:03] back [23:03] what was after pastebin ? [23:04]

that has the traceback in it. Attach to bug report, lets see what we can do with it [23:04]

UndiFineD: make sure to include which version of ubuntu that is, and add "apt-cache policy python" version [23:05] mm AlanBell my chromium browser closed true listen mary ?!!! [23:06] and i have closed nothing by myself [23:29] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=637621 [23:29] Gnome bug 637621 in speech "Orca crashes, logs me out" [Major,Unconfirmed] [23:45] crap now UndiFineD his pc spontaneous logs out every time after he has runes orca he now do it without running.