[00:33] <coz_> hey all
[00:36] <darkmatter> o/
[10:09]  * kwwii sings "It's beginning to look at lot like christmas"
[10:15]  * thorwil puts on some gabber
[10:54] <kwwii> thorwil: I would never have pegged you for a hard-core techno fan :P
[10:54] <evilvish> kwwii: hey!
[10:55] <kwwii> hehe, took me a second to figure out who evil vish was :P
[10:55] <kwwii> I read elvish at first
[10:55] <evilvish> yea.. seems a netsplit turned me bad ;p
[10:55] <kwwii> lol, I would pay to see you dressed up like elvis ;D
[10:56] <evilvish> ;p
[10:56] <whois> crap!!
[10:57] <kwwii> whois whois
[10:57] <vish> while getting to register the evil nick , i must have spammed a lot of channels ;p
[10:58] <thorwil> kwwii: what, did you think i would prefer roy black?
[11:01] <kwwii> thorwil: I figured you are a big fan of volksmusic!
[11:03] <thorwil> kwwii: yeah, because it's honesty and sophistication can't be matched!
[11:18] <kwwii> thorwil: hehe, yeah...erm, that is what I meant :P
[11:22] <kwwii> time for lunch...bbl
[11:31] <iainfarrell> hey thorwil and vish
[11:31] <iainfarrell> are you guys around in about 20 mins?
[11:34] <thorwil> iainfarrell: just about to leave for between 20 and 30 minutes :)  bbl
[11:34] <vish> iainfarrell: hey.. yup.. i'll be there for another hr..
[11:54] <thorwil> -_-
[11:57] <iainfarrell> hey vish
[11:57] <iainfarrell> in thorwil's absence - unless he's still about
[11:57] <thorwil> 0.o
[12:05] <iainfarrell> heh
[12:05] <iainfarrell> ok
[12:05] <iainfarrell> sorry
[12:05] <iainfarrell> last time I get distracted by other work
[12:05] <iainfarrell> need to catch you guys re: the wallpaper contest
[12:05] <iainfarrell> Ivanka asked me to chat to you both about the illustrations part
[12:05] <iainfarrell> we'll run the Flickr contest again
[12:08] <iainfarrell> vish: have you been talking to Vanks about wallpapers in Natty at all?
[12:09] <thorwil> iainfarrell: i think we would like to see illu-walls collected at art.ubuntu-owl.org
[12:09] <thorwil> doctormo is the man to talk to about that
[12:10] <thorwil> iainfarrell: we suggested as much to ivanka and she seemed to be ok with it
[12:10] <iainfarrell> cool
[12:11] <iainfarrell> I will try and track him down
[12:12] <coz_> is this a replacement for using flickr? ^^
[12:12] <thorwil> iainfarrell: afaics it was decided that these shall have nothing to do with the f.c. showcase
[12:13] <iainfarrell> yeah
[12:13] <iainfarrell> although from an "iain worrying about it getting on the CD" it's all the same to me ;)
[12:13] <iainfarrell> I'll need to kick them both off as soon as I can
[12:17] <thorwil> iainfarrell: i suggest to ask for 2560 x 1600 px format. maybe point to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Backgrounds , especially the templates at the end
[12:17] <iainfarrell> ahh good thinking
[12:18] <iainfarrell> thanks
[12:25]  * vish was afk.. catches up with scrollback
[12:26] <vish> iainfarrell: doctormo was also cool with using art.ubuntu-owl.org for illustrations, we were waiting for you :)
[12:27] <vish> iainfarrell: we could use it for the photos too if the image size restriction or the large pool size is a problem in flickr
[12:28] <iainfarrell> hey Vish, I think we make the illustrations a test for the new system
[12:28] <vish> cool..
[12:28] <iainfarrell> the reason for using Flickr is that it has great photographers already there
[12:28] <vish> yea..
[12:28] <iainfarrell> but illustrations is new
[12:28] <iainfarrell> so we can go anywhere
[12:38] <coz_> what are you defining as "illustrations" ?
[12:41] <darkmatter> illustrations is a fairly broad and generic term
[12:41] <coz_> not really
[12:41] <iainfarrell> coz_ I suppose the definition here would be drawn or abstract
[12:41] <coz_> darkmatter,  illustration by definition...is an image  depicting text
[12:41] <iainfarrell> let me look for examples
[12:41] <coz_> an illustration relys on text  or story
[12:42] <coz_> there are no other definitions for illustration
[12:42] <iainfarrell> so perhaps drawn or rendered would be a better term then
[12:42] <coz_> a kids story book has illustrations clarifying or  imaging  text
[12:43] <darkmatter> coz_: definition and popular usage are different fish. I can show you many an (officially labelled and categorized) Illustrator that doesn't Illustrate by the definition of the word, as in ever ;)
[12:44] <coz_> darkmatter,  like who ...there are very few great illustrators that can stand alone as fine art
[12:44] <coz_> NC wyeth  comes to mind
[12:45] <darkmatter> coz_ Sir John Howe by example.
[12:45] <coz_> let me check that out
[12:45] <iainfarrell> I have to head to lunch but will catch you guys after and get this ball rolling! :)
[12:46] <coz_> darkmatter,  but even he is relying on a stroy line
[12:46] <coz_> story
[12:46] <darkmatter> or nearly every artist that does boo covers. a vast number of them are fine artists by any hard definition of the word, but all are classified as Illustrators (even by themselves)
[12:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  I am sure they do ...however  an illustrator is "rarely"  a fine artist
[12:47] <darkmatter> coz_: even I rely on story. doesn't make me an illustrator :P
[12:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  the images i am looking at by this john howe  are not fine art
[12:48] <coz_> they are absolutely illustrations
[12:48] <coz_> which rely on  text
[12:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  fine art  relys on itself for explanation,,,, illustration needs text to define it
[12:49] <coz_> there are no other definitions
[12:49] <coz_> regardless of what "they"  may call themselves
[12:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  one of the few illustrators that nearly bridged the gap between fine art and illustration is  NC wyet  giving birth of course to  Andrew Wyeth and subsequently  Jamie Wyeth    google images for  NC wyeth
[12:52] <darkmatter> coz_: dun google then. a google for John Howe will show his popular work (which is the Illustrations he does on commision for the Tolkien society and such). google defeats everything. because google is evil like that
[12:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  I googled him  I dont see that as fine art  that stands alone
[12:53] <coz_> they are most definitly illustrations
[12:53] <coz_> not fine art
[12:54] <thorwil> it's true that illustration is not the right term for the wallpapers
[12:55] <coz_> compositions  would be more appropriate  but probably less understood
[12:55] <coz_> although it does raise the "bar"  for what may be submitted
[12:55] <thorwil> how do you call everything except photos? where heavily edited photos and collages might be in, again
[12:55] <coz_> thorwil,  those would also be  "compositions"
[12:56] <darkmatter> coz_: never google.  artbooks n stuff :P
[12:56] <coz_> darkmatter,  you should take a quick look at NC wyeth,,, he is as I said ,,,one of the few illustrators  to nearly bridge that gap
[12:57] <coz_> "compositions"  are not specific to a particular "media"   it is does however concern itself with quality
[13:00] <coz_> NC's son Andrew Wyeth  took his father's knowledge of illustration and most definitly bridged that gap  as did andrew's son  Jamie
[13:25] <coz_> I didnt mean to stop the conversation  short :(
[13:39] <kwwii> coz_: indeed, but modern photography kinda took their place :(
[14:00] <coz_> kwwii,   what do you mean?  took the place of illustrators?
[14:00] <coz_> kwwii,  yes to a large extent I agree
[14:03] <kwwii> coz_: yepp, that is what I meant
[14:03] <kwwii> unfortunately :(
[14:03] <coz_> Illustrators  are a particular breed of artist...  photography..etching ..painting...all are valid for illustrating..but the mind set is different from fine art.. unfortunately "corportate"  advertising has somewhat basterdized  the  concept of illustration
[14:03] <coz_> kwwii,  and I absolutely agree with you
[14:04] <coz_> "corporate"  rather
[14:04] <kwwii> :-)
[14:05] <coz_> I personally always rejected  illustration as  a path I wanted to take because i felt that "composition" itself was the end  and showed greater skill  than an illustrator  but that is my personal opinion
[14:07] <kwwii> personally, I love illustration (although it can be quite boring at times) and photography
[14:08] <coz_> kwwii,  oh yes... there are some  really great fine photographers out there  dead  and alive...that rival any skilled painting or sculpture
[14:08] <kwwii> but I really dislike it when people only use photoshop to make shitty photos look nice...it is an "art" all to itself and is killing all the good photographers
[14:08] <kwwii> but then again, I am old-skool
[14:08] <kwwii> :p
[14:09] <coz_> kwwii,  not old school at all... the tools  arent the problem as much as the hand manipulating them
[14:09] <coz_> and of course the mind behind the hand
[14:09] <kwwii> hehe, indeed
[14:10] <coz_> I had one arguement with a young fellow that felt one of his favorite artists  was absolutely great,, and that anyone using terms like "fine art"  were old and out of date,,,yet this  great artist of his painted  less accurately than a chimp
[14:12] <coz_> there is skill necessary for any  project dealing with " graphics"  its just that people "reject"  the idea that there are rules to composing  , be it line..or color...or  shape,,, or light... all are composed "purposely"  withing any composition...too often these are ignored even with something as simple as a desktop wallpaper
[14:12] <kwwii> lol, I think people have lost the feeling for what fine art really is
[14:13] <coz_> kwwii,   that's for sure :)
[14:13] <kwwii> I bet people these days would say an iphone is art ;-)
[14:13] <coz_> kwwii,   as opposed to industrial design :)
[14:13] <kwwii> exactly
[14:14] <kwwii> design and art co-mingle in peoples heads for some reason
[14:14] <coz_> kwwii,   because they are poorly educated ...
[14:16] <coz_> kwwii,  this is a freind of mine    http://www.westpennart.com/images/index.htm  here in pittsburgh... I am no keen on all of his work but he understands the differenc.. he used to paint with peter max  whom he says is near  crap  :)
[14:20] <kwwii> wow, nice stuff (except the web page itself)
[14:20] <coz_> lol  yeah he still uses webtv
[14:20] <kwwii> hehe
[14:21] <coz_> kwwii,  he teaches in Luca italy every summer
[14:21] <coz_> kwwii,  i was going to go there with him but I just cant afford  italy every year
[14:21] <kwwii> nice, I wish I could paint
[14:21] <kwwii> hehe, I can hardly afford to stay in Germany :p
[14:21] <coz_> kwwii,  well painting doesnt have to be  realistic works
[14:21] <coz_> kwwii,   I keep telling people  you can compose with shapes and torn paper
[14:22] <kwwii> true, and I do paint and charcoal abstracts from time to time but part of me really wants to paint a realistic person
[14:22] <coz_> kwwii,   oh cool... then study  a nude  :)
[14:23] <kwwii> funny, I can do illustrations which are totally realistic but with a brush I seem to fail at it...
[14:23] <coz_> kwwii,  different approaches
[14:23] <kwwii> yeah, I've thought about taking a course at the local college
[14:23] <kwwii> indeed
[14:23] <coz_> kwwii,  dont hesitate  to take the course
[14:23] <coz_> kwwii, ` if nothing else it advances your skills  and knowledge
[14:23] <kwwii> funny thing is, I used to paint with my computer and wacom and that came easy, then learning vecotrs to do illustrations was hard....on and on
[14:24] <kwwii> coz_: indeed
[14:24] <darkmatter> realism and technical skill does not an artist make ;) (late reply to (08:21:35 AM) coz_: kwwii,  well painting doesnt have to be  realistic works) :P
[14:25] <coz_> kwwii,  here are a few  of my older pieces    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/e.jpg   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/h.png    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/f.png     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/gram.png     http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/my%20work/Self.jpg
[14:26] <coz_> darkmatter,  absolutely correct... no need to draw or paint anything naturalistically to be fine art
[14:27] <kwwii> coz_: wow, impressive
[14:27] <coz_> in fact i still like jackson pollock  which my friend here believes is total crap :)
[14:27] <coz_> kwwii,   oh  old pieces  and thanks
[14:28] <kwwii> your welcome
[14:28] <coz_> but the same skills should be applied to even a desktop image... subtlety...clarity.. good design... unobtrusive  etc
[14:29] <darkmatter> coz_: art is funny that way I've seen godlike technical skill/realism/blah blah with absolutely no life or passion or <insert whatever term here>, just not art. then I've seen marmalade stains on canvas that have utterly floored me ;)
[14:29] <coz_> darkmatter,  boy  I cant agree more
[14:30] <coz_> darkmatter,   I have seen some wonderful pieces with very little on the canvas..aka workspace
[14:30] <coz_> darkmatter,  and 'that" is where knowledge of composition comes in
[14:30] <coz_> learns the rules and try to break them
[14:31] <coz_> not too many have actually broken those rules though :)
[14:33] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. plus we all have our preferences. like me. I was drawing/painting photo-realistically as soon as I was old enough to be trusted not to eat the tools :P
[14:33] <coz_> :)
[14:33] <coz_> darkmatter,  yep I understand
[14:33] <coz_> darkmatter,  I often envy  abstract painters  for the clarity of  composition
[14:33] <darkmatter> coz_: but thats not my thing, my imagination is to screwed up for that. surrealisn and abstraction is my schtick
[14:34] <coz_> :)
[14:35] <darkmatter> "you should do portraits". bah, I could make a killing at that, but where's the fun? ;)
[14:35] <coz_> personally i am excited by good to great figure paintings..of too often...as  you said ,, I have seen great draftmenship in dipicitng the human form but it has no substance or was clearly copied from a photograph,,,which is both   offensive from a painters' point of view and basterdizes  the art of photography at the same time
[14:36] <darkmatter> I mean. I have done portraits for people (among other stuff), but my heart just isn't in it
[14:36] <coz_> darkmatter,   I tried the portrait  train once... but when they get the bill  they dont come back :)
[14:36] <darkmatter> hehe
[14:37] <coz_> I was once asked to do 18 postumous portraits of the great music composers  and when I told the guy that this would be a minimim of $5000  each he rejected the idea and though he should only pay  $500
[14:37] <coz_> $500 for all 18  that is
[14:37] <darkmatter> I have a mini portrait I did of the missus in my wallet. I should scan it one day. it's not a portrait. it started as one, but then got "Dalified" xD
[14:38] <kwwii> try explaining to a developer why making an icon a) takes time and b) costs money
[14:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  ooo miniatures
[14:38] <kwwii> the typical response is "it's only a tiny little picture!"
[14:38] <coz_> kwwii,   there is no language on this planet to explain to a developer the complextities  of even an icon :)
[14:39] <coz_> kwwii,  they refuse to understand that any graphics is as complex as coding
[14:39] <coz_> kwwii,  the main difference is  media
[14:39] <kwwii> hehe
[14:39] <kwwii> true
[14:39] <darkmatter> in many ways moreso
[14:39] <coz_> kwwii,  even developrs are bound by "rules"  of code
[14:40] <coz_> too often developers think graphics are the "fun part"
[14:40] <coz_> oy
[14:40] <kwwii> lol
[14:40] <coz_> now they changed my one icon in ccsm that I am going to have to kick ass to get the one I did back in
[14:43] <coz_> darkmatter,  and yes I also believe that in many ways  graphics are far more complex ..depending on who is doing the graphics  but I guess that also applies to code
[14:44] <coz_> david ravemen  and compiz as opposed to the developer of  "gnome-xchat " ")
[14:45] <coz_> it is far easier to teach an artist to code  than to teach a developer art
[14:47] <darkmatter> http://www.hrgiger.com/images/Ibanez_new.jpg <--- me wants
[14:47] <coz_> darkmatter,   great detail... did you show this as an example of advertising art?
[14:48] <coz_> that's another area that can have stand alone pieces
[14:48] <coz_> advertising....although today  not so much
[14:49] <darkmatter> coz_: nope. showed it as an example of awesome art adapted to advertising :P
[14:49] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok you can look at it that way also :)
[14:49] <coz_> darkmatter,  yes it is composed well and stands as a final composition
[14:50] <coz_> it still comes down to the  "mind" behind the tools
[14:50] <coz_> is there a vision?
[14:50] <coz_> and do they have the skills to  carry it through
[14:51] <darkmatter> coz_: Ibanez did a line of guitars featuring some of  Gigers paintings adapted to work on there guitars. it's advertising as far as marketing Giger I guess
[14:51] <coz_> darkmatter,  but it doesn stand alone
[14:51] <coz_> darkmatter,  and that makes go well beyond  advertising or illustration
[14:53] <darkmatter> coz_: considering its Giger it better stand alone :P
[14:53] <coz_> :)
[14:54] <coz_> now the only thing I see is that this doesnt have the emotive content  a fine painting or sculpture would have  except for admirers of guitars ,,Ibanez  or Gigers
[14:54] <coz_> but the design is very well done
[14:54] <coz_> and ceratinly a stand alone piece
[14:54] <coz_> certainly
[14:55] <coz_> great poster....another  art form
[14:57] <coz_> posters  seem a good combination of advertising...fine art...and illustration ... I suppose that's why it is distinct  as a valid path
[14:57] <darkmatter> cozthe lack of emotive context is, as I said earlier "painting adapted to a guitar". I can't remember _which_ painting it is, or else I'd link to the original. but for a work of fusion (an actually painting adapted to "work" on a guitar) it is quite impressive
[14:57] <coz_> darkmatter,  absolutely  and even without that knowlege  it still stands  as a good design
[14:59] <coz_> I find "text" in any design is one of the more crucial  things to get right
[14:59] <coz_> not only placement  but choice of font...size..
[15:00] <darkmatter> bosch, fucks, dali, giger... lions and tigers and bears... OH MY!
[15:00] <coz_> :)
[15:01] <darkmatter> fuchs* evcen. bloody fingers
[15:01] <darkmatter> even*
[15:01] <coz_> damn fingers ... I have the same disorder :)
[15:01] <darkmatter> guess today is a "don't touch tools" day :P
[15:02] <coz_> :)
[15:02] <coz_> well guys I have to get to the bank  which is about an hour away :(
[15:02] <coz_> I will be back a bit later
[15:19] <kwwii> I'm off to band practice...be back much later
[18:15]  * vish wonders if people really read the specs :s
[18:16] <vish> well, i guess some design activity is better than none ;p
[18:42] <thorwil> vish: do you mean the additions to the xubuntu pool?
[18:43] <vish> thorwil: nah, the SC one … i guess he followed some re-tweet..
[18:46] <vish> this is awesome!!!!!! http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/21/bbc-comedians-ridicule-tech-naming-schemes-make-us-laugh-along/
[18:59] <thorwil> lol
[19:00] <thorwil> there have been times in my life, where i really wanted to boot my system
[19:00] <thorwil> but wouldn't have liked to see it crash
[19:43] <efactusa> Hey everyone I just want to thank you all for the wonderful OS on behalf of me and the people of france and the crew at http://www.myefact.com we wouldnt have been able to do half of what we do if it wasn't for Ubuntu so THANKS UBUNTU DEVS!!
[19:48] <thorwil> http://www.a2591.com/2010/12/minimalist-effect-in-maximalist-market.html
[20:05] <vish> efactusa: it would be great if you could repeat those kind words on #ubuntu-devel :)
[20:09] <vish> efactusa: most of the developers hang out in that channel
[20:18] <thorwil> vish: i suspect it's a bot and all about that url in the message
[20:19] <vish> thorwil: yea, seems so.. :/
[20:33] <efactusa> ohhh ok :)
[20:33] <efactusa> i think of devel as more like the officers though i think the real workers are like the translators
[20:34] <efactusa> and the artists
[20:34] <efactusa> etc
[20:34] <efactusa> the developers themselves are kind of jerks
[20:37] <vish> efactusa: nope.. they are not ;)
[20:39] <efactusa> have you followed the blacklisting/removal of the alsa-oss compatibility driver from the kernel???
[20:40] <efactusa> anyone who has followed that story knows they are jerks... they basically deliberately broke tons of apps (fine, if they really want to push new APIs) by breaking OSS compatibility... but the bad part is they also went out of their way to make it as difficult as possible for anyone who actually needs OSS to be able to use it
[20:41] <efactusa> and all of that would be all well and good if there was some "master plan" that would result in a much better/awesome audio infrastructure
[20:42] <efactusa> but there isn't, the only master plan is Pulseaudio, which is a horribly flawed solution, bloated, buggy, laggy, inappropriate for any kind of professional audio work, and not even the best sound server type solution (even assuming you do need to make everyone use a sound server, there is another one that is actually tight, low latency, well designed, etc-- JACK )
[20:44] <efactusa> so many times basic desktop users I have told to try Ubuntu tell me it is too laggy
[20:44] <efactusa> and when I check top/ps aux, 70% of their cpu is being used by Pulseaudio
[20:45] <efactusa> and all they are doing is like, playing a youtube video
[20:46] <efactusa> but the devs want to blame flash plugin for the problems.  Guess what, even if flash plugin is buggy, 99% of basic users DO care about actually using flash...
[20:46] <efactusa> and like 1% of users care about being able to switch between multiple sound cards at once or have per-application mixing or any of the other stupid features pulseaudio delivers
[20:46] <kwwii> efactusa: I suggest you take this conversation elsewhere
[20:46] <kwwii> or I will have to remove you from the conversation
[20:47] <efactusa> okay, sorry, i'll shut up, my point was just that ubuntu devs are dickwads.
[20:48] <kwwii> efactusa: not true, and you cannot use that language here please
[20:48] <efactusa> el programidors del ubuntu son cabrones y chupacabras
[20:50] <vish> heh, that was an interesting turn of events ;p
[20:51] <kwwii> indeed
[20:52] <vish> kwwii: you give us these magical powers but they are only temporary until we logout .. ;)
[20:53] <kwwii> vish: yeah, gotta figure out the bits to make it permanent
[20:54] <vish> hmm, i think i have it in my logs somewhere..
[20:55] <vish> kwwii:  /msg chanserv flags #ubuntu-artwork NICK +votiA
[20:56] <kwwii> vish: done for yourself and thorwil
[20:57] <vish> kwwii: it worked! awesome! thanks ;)
[20:57] <vish> now , i can kick thorwil whenever i like \o/
[20:58] <kwwii> ;-)
[20:59] <vish> thorwil: you feel for it ;)
[21:00] <thorwil> feel?
[21:00] <vish> err,! fell*
[21:00] <kwwii> I can has feel?
[21:00] <kwwii> ouch, I wrote that and then thought about what it meant
[21:00] <kwwii> usually best to do things in the other order
[21:01] <vish> cop a feel , or however you spell it.. ;p
[21:01] <thorwil> i had classmates who tended to do it in that order
[21:01] <kwwii> vish: your english is way too good
[21:02] <kwwii> I checked an old email account today, I have 4991 new message :P
[21:02] <kwwii> s
[21:03] <vish> kwwii: DELETE is your friend..
[21:03] <vish> kwwii: just check if i had sent any mails though ;p
[21:03] <kwwii> ;-)
[21:05] <thorwil> if any of that is mailing list traffic ...
[21:06] <vish> ah ha!
[21:08] <thorwil> time to kick myself outa here. good night!
[21:08]  * vish sleeps too..
[21:10] <coz_> but it s only 4pm :)
[21:16] <kwwii> coz_: it always 4pm somewhere :-)
[21:18] <coz_> :)