/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/12/26/#ubuntu-translators.txt

Yaron-HebI need some clarifications about beagle, can someone please help?11:53
andrejzabout usage or translations?12:12
damasceneHi,15:04
damasceneis it possible to add translators for a team and require all their translations to be reviewed?15:05
damascene*to a team15:05
askhldamascene, only by verbal agreement.15:21
damasceneI see. I found that there is reviewer mode and translator mode. can not I assign some people to be only translators?15:22
askhlThat's the same as not having them in the team, provided the project developers declared the translation policy as either 'structured' or 'restricted'15:27
askhlOnly 'structured', I think actually15:28
damascenebut there should be a difference between team leaders and members15:31
askhldamascene, not for who can translate what, unfortunately15:31
askhl(I agree, by the way.  I would like a system where members propose collections of translations and gets them reviewed, then ask the team leader to `commit' this group of translations)15:33
damascenethose who want to translate but they don't have the quality required yet. how can you keep your eyes on them? if they were on your team with less qualification you can send them messages when you wish15:33
damasceneIs there any request for such a thing that I can join or should I open one?15:34
damasceneA possible work a round is a sub team maybe15:35
askhldamascene, if you open one, I'll definitely support it.  TLE once suggested a function for people to `approve' of individual translations, but this didn't get anywhere.  I also think that a way to select/handle multiple translations at once is the way forward.  Our team has a long and continuing history of confusion when it comes to who should do what and how.15:36
damasceneshould I file a bug against rosetta or what?15:37
askhl(When I keep talking about selecting groups of translations, it's because that way, some non-team-leaders can collaborate on a large set of translations, and the team leader can approve them at once without managing every single message.  That's how development usually works, including translations based on po-files under version control)15:37
askhldamascene, since I'm also interested in this, let's do a survey of what exists before we do anything15:38
askhlProbably many people had this idea previously15:38
damasceneok, I'll wait15:38
askhlYou could also browse around the launchpad/rosetta blueprints and bugs15:39
damasceneok15:39
askhlI can't really see anything related15:47
askhlIn any case this is not something that's going to be fixed tomorrow, and one can go about solving the issue in many ways15:48
damasceneaskhl: I checked too, nothing related. Should I file a bug?15:49
askhlAs I mentioned, I would to delegate both translation and review to possibly different groups of people, and then have a coordinator approve the entire collection of strings.  This is just one way15:49
damascenehttps://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/42727 is about bulk review15:49
ubot4`Launchpad bug 42727 in launchpad "Bulk-review and -approve somebody's translations (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Low,Triaged]15:50
askhlAhh yes.  Excellent15:50
askhlAs I mentioned: What you would like is the same as having structured permissions (set by the developers) + some people not in the translation team + some people in the translation team15:52
askhlRight?  So what exactly would have to change?15:53
damascenelet me say it simple. I want people with only translation permission in my team. others are both translators and reviewers.15:54
askhlSo that's the same as having some people not in the team (translators) and some in the team (translators and reviewers)15:54
damasceneno15:54
damascenemany people complain when a team owner does not let them in15:55
askhl(the translators can also be in a separate team)15:55
damasceneand he can not because he will have to check them first or things might go bad15:55
damascenetrue. as I said earlier that could be a possible work around.15:56
damascenefor every translation team there will be two teams. Translators team and reviewers team. or Launchpad can support this and save us the troubles.15:57
askhldamascene, then I think that should be the suggestion.  The only possibly non-trivial issue is how their mailing lists relate15:57
damascenewe add the reviewer team as sub team15:58
damascenebut that does not need a suggestion, I think. that what launchpad already have.15:59
damascenecreate team A and B. A is official and B is just to group interested people.16:00
damascenegot it?16:00
askhlYes.16:00
askhlSo one way would be to somehow make B an `official' team also.  So both teams are official.16:01
askhlJust with different rights.16:01
damasceneofficial means it can submit without review.16:02
askhlExcept if we define official in some other way.  So as to make people happy when they are accepted into it.  Which is the only problem with the present approach - that they're not happy when they get declined after requesting membership.16:03
damascenebrb16:05
andrejz@damascene: We have the same structure in slovenian team16:10
andrejzFirst is for new translators and it's called translators team and only has permissions to suggest things16:11
andrejzand the second is called Quality assurance team and they have full permission to edit files16:11
andrejzSo all work that is done by the first group MUST be reviewed and approved before it gets into ubuntu16:12
andrejzthis arrangement works really well for us16:12
andrejzbrb16:12
damasceneandrejz: that is a good practice16:14
damasceneaskhl: so what is the move now?16:17
askhlIt sounds like the dual team solution works well for the intended purposes.  I'd still like the bulk commit functionality because it allows coordinators to make use of the work of others in a more ad-hoc way which poses less requirements on the structuring of groups16:22
askhl(and doesn't require coordinators to actively proofread many suggestions, in case the suggestions are deemed sufficiently high-quality)16:22
damasceneit works well but launchpad supporting having translators only in your team is better.16:24
askhlActually I think I'll create a "secondary" team for our translation team now.  I've been thinking about this for a while but never got around to it16:27
damasceneok16:29
damasceneaskhl: do you have an Idea about what will happen if you added the reviewer team as sub-team to the open team?16:37
damascenedoes that effect any permissions?16:37
andrejz@askhl: reviewing doesn't take much time if suggestions are of good quality. also you can suggest improvements to less experienced translators. Furthermore even experienced translators make mistakes like typos and such (or maybe working late and are less concentrated)16:43
andrejzhence i think it's a good idea to review all the translations (both from beginners and experienced tranlators)16:44
andrejzif manpower is sufficient, of course16:44
gtriderxc" reviewing doesn't take much time if suggestions are of good quality"16:45
gtriderxc" reviewing doesn't" Make much SENSE "if suggestions are of good quality"16:46
andrejzit does because people still make mistakes16:46
andrejzno translation is perfect16:46
andrejzi have not seen any package with 100 strings or more without any (at least minor gramatical) mistakes16:47
andrejzit just depends how high you set the quality bar16:47
damascene+116:48
askhldamascene, if you add the reviewer team as a subteam, nothing should happen at all - the reviewers will just happen to also be members of another team (having no other implications)16:48
damascenegood. they will get the mail list discussions too16:50
askhlandrejz, I agree that reviewing good translations takes little time, but I still believe that reviewing (saying "I approve of this message") and "committing" (saying "this message is now part of the distribution") should be separable actions.  In particular I would like a different set of people to do these things, and I'd like to have a low bar for being a reviewer (basically none) but a high bar for being a committer.  For what it's wor16:54
askhl(Also: In our team, all translations are reviewed, but we'd like to get the new translators more involved in the review of their messages instead of simply correcting-and-approving their strings)16:56
askhl(This has some historical precedence as our team also works upstream in many places, and mostly reviews are done by sending po-files in e-mails, which turns out to be very flexible)16:57
gtriderxc"no translation is perfect"17:06
gtriderxcU would be surprised17:06
gtriderxchow many times I make something work in a program by translating it17:07
gtriderxcI think I make less mistakes translating than the native already has17:08
gtriderxcI made a Software Center translation because it was useless17:08
gtriderxcPolish users use synaptic if they choose Ubuntu at all17:11
damascenesoftware center is easier17:12
gtriderxcnow it is17:12
gtriderxcbut there is a mess17:12
gtriderxchard to find what You're looking for17:12
gtriderxctoo many ppl give too many names in too many ways17:13
gtriderxcin 60-70% i was unable to translate the description of a program without looking 4 it in the internet or even installing it17:14
gtriderxcso one will tell me that "no translation is perfect"17:14
damasceneI think the description is shared with synaptic, isn't it?17:15
gtriderxc:) nut in synaptic there is an alphabetical order17:15
gtriderxcORDER17:15
gtriderxcther is an ORDER at all17:15
damasceneI see17:16
gtriderxcso now our Polish Center is relative clear17:16
gtriderxceveryone can see which program is for what17:17
gtriderxcin English software center You have to know what are You looking 417:17
damascenelooks like your software center do things without you having to know about it :)17:18
gtriderxcso an example:17:19
damascenedid you build it from scratch or you just modified synaptic17:19
gtriderxcwe have a search engine in SC, haven't we??17:21
gtriderxcso17:21
gtriderxcthe engine looks 4 key words17:21
gtriderxcmany english apps in SC have no key words17:22
gtriderxc!!17:22
damascenethat is a problem17:22
gtriderxcso if you're looking for a stupid pdf reader in english SC, You will find only few of them17:22
gtriderxcin "MY" ours polish if You write pdf, You will finf them all17:23
damasceneSC does not search the description, wired17:23
gtriderxcit looks for h1 and h2 doesn't it??17:23
damasceneI did not use it that much. don't know17:25
gtriderxc:)17:25
gtriderxcso You use synaptic rather:)17:25
damasceneI just use apt or aptitude17:26
damasceneit does the job for me17:26
gtriderxcso You were first a Linux user and then Ubuntu user probably. I was first a Ubuntu user and now i'm becoming a real Linux user17:27
damascene:)17:27
gtriderxcanyway where R U from??17:28
damasceneI'm Arabic17:29
damasceneaptitude search whatever17:29
damasceneget every thing you want17:29
damasceneI leave in Saudi Arabia17:30
gtriderxcwow:)17:30
gtriderxcso I saw Sun shining recently:)17:30
gtriderxcI haven't since a few weeks:)17:30
gtriderxconly clouds and snow17:31
damascene:D17:31
damasceneyou should see it in the summer. it burns. :)17:32
gtriderxcbut not as much as at Your place17:32
andrejz@gtriderxc:  this means english descriptions are not perfect either17:32
gtriderxcright17:32
gtriderxcI report many bugs in them17:33
andrejzwhat i was trying to say is that i have reviewed many programs (some of them i have translated myself and then reviewed them a month or so later).17:33
gtriderxcit happens17:33
gtriderxci also correct myself17:34
andrejzi have find at least a couple of minor mistakes in all of them - that's why i think it's worth reviewing, because you remove a lot of minor glitches thisway17:34
andrejzof course some still remain17:34
gtriderxcnot very often but it happens17:34
gtriderxcthe Polish problem is we have no ppl to translate corectly17:34
gtriderxcthere are ppl who open Rosetta and give some stupid suggestions to correctly translated strings17:35
andrejzof course what i said makes sense if there is enough people to do it17:35
gtriderxcso the problem is more to organize it all17:35
andrejzif there are not enough people i guess one must make a compromise17:36
gtriderxcthe problem is also in Polish administrator17:36
gtriderxche doesn't do too much and do not allow new people to do too much17:37
andrejzwell that's another issue. fortunatley the previous leader of our group stepped down gracefully when he realised he didn't have time anymore17:37
andrejzbrb17:37
gtriderxcour do not have time either17:37
gtriderxche never answer any of my email17:38
gtriderxc*answerde17:38
gtriderxc*answered17:38
damasceneI suggest ubuntu start charging who ever does not benefit the community17:40
damascenethen who does the work can get paid17:40
gtriderxci think Ubuntu do not stands on its feet well enough to do it17:42
gtriderxcdo not stands:)17:43
gtriderxcI sometimes like to read things I wrote:)17:43
damascene:)17:43
gtriderxcas far as I know already myself I know that I have to read every translation I make17:44
gtriderxcI make many typing errors especially by switching the letters. for example taht>instaed of>that. my left hend writes to slow:)17:46
gtriderxc*hand:)17:46
damasceneyou might try to learn colemak or what ever it's called17:46
damasceneand try to work early in the morning17:46
andrejz@gtridexrc: i think paying money is bad, because than greedy people concentrate on quantity rather than quality and we don't want those people17:57
andrejzalso, meet on a beer with your administrator17:58
andrejzi am sure you will be able to sort things out then ;)17:58
askhlthe power of beer should not be underestimated...18:04
andrejz+118:04
andrejzalso if it doesn't work you can always drik MORE :)18:04
gtriderxc:)18:09
andrejzwe meet on beer once per month. not everyone can come all the time, but it's still very good, so i highly recommend (if the distance is not too great obviously)18:10

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