[06:33] <mr_pouit> ochosi: I think jeromeg is on it
[06:33] <mr_pouit> and yeah, we can discuss the panel more, just ping me
[06:34] <mr_pouit> and yeah², the first start is very slow (because of gvfs iirc); maybe jannis knows what we can "preload" to improve that.
[08:28] <ochosi> mr_pouit: good morning :)
[08:29] <ochosi> mr_pouit: the main thing i'm uncertain of is the bottom panel. i mean whether we really need/want it (by default)
[09:09] <mr_pouit> re
[09:09] <mr_pouit> ochosi: maybe only a dock-like bottom panel ?
[09:10] <mr_pouit> hmpf, that's already present in the first iteration ;-)
[09:10] <ochosi> hehe
[09:11] <ochosi> well, the problem with the "dock-like" is that in the xfce-panel we can't combine open windows and starters
[09:12] <mr_pouit> you mean, like windows 7?
[09:12] <ochosi> yeah, or like macos for that matter
[09:12] <ochosi> docky basically does that too
[09:16] <ochosi> so, you're in favor of the bottom panel?
[09:26] <mr_pouit> I think people are used to launcher icons, and if we put them on the top panel it will be a bit 'overcrowded'
[09:31] <ochosi> yes, i think so too
[09:32] <ochosi> i mean i don't use launchers, therefore i wasn't sure whether "the general public" needs that
[09:32] <mr_pouit> neither do I, but I think they use it ;>
[09:46] <ochosi> mhm
[09:46] <ochosi> so we can keep it this way
[09:46] <ochosi> auto-hidden by default
[09:46] <ochosi> so it's not too much in the way
[16:20] <mr_pouit> is there a meeting today?
[16:22] <ochosi> good question
[16:22] <ochosi> this would probably be the first time i could make it :)
[16:25] <charlie-tca> Do you have updates?
[16:25] <charlie-tca> I am willing to have one
[16:26] <ochosi> well, i'm working on a new default panel layout
[16:26] <ochosi> you can see iteration1 here: http://wiki.knome.fi/shimmer:xfce-panel
[16:26] <ochosi> feedback appreciated
[16:27] <ochosi> the only thing that's incorrect in that screenshot is that the windowlist would have the titles enabled
[16:28] <ochosi> also: we've settled on elementary as default icon theme for natty
[16:28] <ochosi> i'll fix it together with upstream
[16:28] <ochosi> i'm still working on the gtk and xfwm themes, both are not final yet
[16:28] <ochosi> i guess that's pretty much all the news from my side :)
[16:29] <charlie-tca> I am using that layout, with the addition of a third panel for workspaces. I added it to the bottom, as a "grow as needed" panel, with a space between it and the launcher panel
[16:30] <charlie-tca> My eight workspaces took too much room on the top panel
[16:30] <ochosi> hehe
[16:31] <ochosi> well, not sure whether eight workspaces is the typical use-case :)
[16:31] <charlie-tca> heh, no?
[16:31] <ochosi> but yes, the desktop-switcher is maybe one thing that's missing in my layout
[16:31] <ochosi> do you think it should be there?
[16:31] <charlie-tca> Yeah, I need it
[16:31] <ochosi> mhm
[16:31] <charlie-tca> I think many of our users do use more than one workspace, but that is an advanced thing
[16:32] <ochosi> k, i'll try to make iteration2 soon and integrate it
[16:32] <ochosi> would you mind posting a screenshot of how your panels look right now?
[16:32] <charlie-tca> You do know the default for ubuntu 10.10 was 2, right?
[16:32] <charlie-tca> most users that are not experienced will not use workspaces at all
[16:33] <ochosi> yeah, i know
[16:33] <ochosi> that's why i didn't put the switcher there until now
[16:33] <ochosi> but we can try and see how it looks in the top-panel
[16:33] <ochosi> unless you think we don't need it
[16:34] <charlie-tca> I don't know if we need to add it, or just release note that the user is welcome to add it
[16:34] <ochosi> mhm
[16:34] <ochosi> about the bottom launcher panel:
[16:35] <ochosi> i briefly discussed this with mr_pouit recently, he said he thinks people need launchers
[16:35] <charlie-tca> If the user doesn't use workspaces, they won't even know it is gone
[16:35] <charlie-tca> I like the launcher panel
[16:35] <ochosi> ok, then we should focus on what we'd like to have there by default
[16:35] <ochosi> what do you think about having it on autohide by default?
[16:36] <charlie-tca> hate it
[16:36] <ochosi> rly?
[16:36] <ochosi> hm
[16:36] <ochosi> ok
[16:36] <ochosi> i thought that would be a good idea not to lose too much vertical space
[16:36] <charlie-tca> here's the screenshot - http://imagebin.org/130258
[16:36] <ochosi> of course we can also put the second panel on the left side (like ubuntu does with unity)
[16:37] <charlie-tca> We have two panels in all the releases, how would changing the bottom panel to a launcher panel change that?
[16:37] <charlie-tca> I tried the panel on the side. It is ugly and screws up text if used
[16:38] <ochosi> i never really liked the two-panel layout
[16:38] <charlie-tca> I would really like to see orage clock replace that clock we use, too
[16:38] <ochosi> sure, that's already there
[16:38] <ochosi> i don't see a definite reason for having two panels. up to now the top panel was a complete waste if you ask me
[16:38] <charlie-tca> I also use the orage world time clock, as you see
[16:38] <ochosi> i mean a waste of space
[16:38] <ochosi> yeah, i like that
[16:39] <charlie-tca> That is clicking on orage with the middle button
[16:39] <charlie-tca> and then adding the timezones. I find it convenient
[16:39] <ochosi> your resolution is definitely high enough so that the second panel won't matter much, but people who have netbooks or <=13'' laptops...
[16:39] <ochosi> yeah, orage worldclock is a nice thing
[16:40] <ochosi> don't really get why it wasn't there by default in previous releases
[16:40] <charlie-tca> I wonder if we can't make the top panel shrink too, and let it grow as windows are opened and closed?
[16:41] <ochosi> hm, not sure, it's not something i would like :)
[16:41] <charlie-tca> If we used a no text launcher panel, it would work on the side
[16:41] <charlie-tca> That is the reason unity is icons only, I think
[16:41] <ochosi> yeah, i think the text-launcher panel is out of the question
[16:41] <ochosi> the texts are mostly too long
[16:42] <ochosi> ok, anyways, g2g now
[16:43] <charlie-tca> The way I use it, with workspaces on a separate panel, the side panel screws me up
[16:43] <charlie-tca> worth thinking about, though
[16:43] <ochosi> mhm
[16:43] <ochosi> in case i don't make it to the meeting you at least now the status quo now :)
[16:43] <ochosi> if there even will be a meeting
[16:43] <charlie-tca> Thanks
[16:44] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: do we want a meeting today?
[16:44] <ochosi> no problem
[16:44] <charlie-tca> I forgot to send the reminder out
[16:44] <ochosi> hm. so maybe we would be the only attendees anyways
[16:44] <charlie-tca> yeah
[16:45] <ochosi> guess in that case i'll find other things to do )
[16:45] <ochosi> ;)
[16:45] <charlie-tca> Oh, yeah, I add launchers to the launchers, too. like under firefox, I have email, terminal, newsreader
[16:45] <ochosi> mhm, maybe we can work on a list of launchers we'd like to have in the launcher panel
[16:45] <ochosi> now that we've decided to have one
[16:46] <charlie-tca> that would be good
[16:46] <ochosi> and i'll try to put the launcher panel on the side and on the bottom so that we can see the difference
[16:46] <ochosi> (even though maybe you have to use it to see whether you like it)
[16:46] <charlie-tca> I think at least put in firefox, mail, thunar
[16:46] <ochosi> yeah, and maybe the xfce-settings
[16:46] <charlie-tca> I been using this launcher thing since 4.7 came to natty
[16:47] <ochosi> we also should think about default dimensions
[16:47] <ochosi> currently it's 24px top panel
[16:47] <charlie-tca> hm, maybe abiword too?
[16:47] <ochosi> yeah, maybe
[16:47] <ochosi> and software center
[16:48] <charlie-tca> I couldn't use the small panel, so I gave it up for "big"
[16:48] <charlie-tca> I think mine are at 40 now
[16:48] <ochosi> sure, your screen-resolution is high enough
[16:48] <ochosi> but on a small laptop-screen this would steal too much space imo
[16:48] <charlie-tca> even on small screens, I have to make it big to see the things
[16:48] <ochosi> k
[16:48] <charlie-tca> yeah, I am not good when it comes to deciding sizes, since my eyes are not doing good again
[16:49] <ochosi> sorry to hear that
[16:49]  * charlie-tca shrugs
[16:49] <charlie-tca> just something to live with
[16:49] <ochosi> i'll try to discuss it with mr_pouit and maybe a few others
[16:49] <charlie-tca> good idea. 
[16:49] <ochosi> k, rly g2g now
[16:49] <ochosi> see you around
[16:50]  * ochosi waves
[16:50] <charlie-tca> Thanks
[16:50] <ochosi> oh, and in case i don't manage to stop by before that: happy new year
[16:50] <charlie-tca> Same to you
[16:50] <ochosi> thx, bye
[16:50] <charlie-tca> Enjoy it
[16:56] <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: are we going to activate the "software-sources" menu item for Natty?
[16:57] <charlie-tca> Ubuntu is no longer using it since 10.10, but we could
[16:59] <charlie-tca> OTOH, if we use "Application Finder" for the menu, it is there under System
[17:16] <mr_pouit> I don't have any update =]
[17:16] <charlie-tca> heh, then let's not have the meeting. We will have one next week, though
[17:16] <mr_pouit> and I will still be in the train when the meeting starts I'm afraid =(
[17:17] <charlie-tca> Well, then...
[17:17] <charlie-tca> Have a really happy New Year's
[17:19] <micahg> By next week we'll hopefully have a schedule for 10.04.2
[17:19] <charlie-tca> Yay!
[17:19] <charlie-tca> That would be really good
[20:09] <ochosi> mr_pouit: heya, just realised that the version of the time-out panel-plugin we're having in xubuntu is really ancient, any chance we could update that from git to version 1.0 until natty?