=== oubiwann is now known as oubiwann-holiday
=== oubiwann-holiday is now known as oubiwann_
=== oubiwann_ is now known as oubiwann
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
=== oubiwann is now known as oubiwann_
=== oubiwann_ is now known as oubiwann
=== doko_ is now known as doko
* skaet looks around and sees some familiar nicks :)15:59
* micahg waves16:00
pittihello skaet, happy new year!16:00
* charlie-tca waves16:00
MootBotMeeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet.16:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:00
skaetHappy New Year all!16:00
skaetNot sure if we'll have quorum or not, but a quick run through of the agenda, so we know the questions to ask this week seems appropriate.16:00
marjohappy new year to all!16:00
skaetAgenda can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/StableReleaseAgenda16:01
skaetReminder, please follow the convention  of using ".." on a separate line when you've finished typing.    Also, If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.16:01
skaetand with that probably a good idea to start off...16:02
skaet[TOPIC] open action items16:03
MootBotNew Topic:  open action items16:03
skaetmarjo - any update on the SRU test reports being added into the agenda?16:03
marjoskaet: please mark that one done; we'll include starting this week16:04
skaetawesome!  thanks marjo.16:04
skaetvictorp,  how about the cert ones?16:04
skaethmm,  no victorp yet...16:05
skaetany other updates to the open action items?16:05
skaetok, moving on16:06
skaet[TOPIC] Bug updates16:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Bug updates16:06
skaetsince last month there's been about +37 bugs opened for maverick,   +24 on lucid.16:07
pittiurgh; hopefully most of them as part of SRU uploads?16:07
skaetnot sure16:07
skaetjust started looking at the numbers this morning, and I think some serious triaging may be needed.16:08
skaetesp. with 10.04.2 scheduled for next month the lucid ones are a bit of a concern.16:08
marjoskaet: will follow up w/ bdmurray re: triaging16:08
skaetthanks marjo.  :)16:08
skaetpitti, where are things standing with karmic SRU release right now?  (did one go out?)16:09
victorpskaet - hi16:09
pittiskaet: very few; basically the kernel churn, and there are two untested papyon/tomboy packages in -proposed16:09
skaetthanks pitti.16:10
sconklinWhat about the Karmic kernel still in -proposed?16:10
pittisconklin: untested, and -ec2 doesn't even have a tracking bug16:11
pittisee bug 68347416:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 683474 in linux (Ubuntu Karmic) "Karmic: 2.6.31-22.70 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/68347416:11
sconklinwe're only testing maverick and lucid16:11
sconklinKarmic falls back to the old "time in proposed"16:12
skaethmm,   this probably needs to be made clearer then in the process docs.16:12
skaetif that's the concensus.16:12
pittiso we still need someone in the community to install and test that kernel16:13
marjopitti, sconklin: pedro tested http://people.canonical.com/~pedro/kernel/kernel-2.6.31-22.70/16:13
sconklinwell, Ideally everything would get all testing, but we're resource-bound16:13
skaetwe schedule runs  (of earlier) in when there are gaps with maverick/lucid testing?16:14
bjfmarjo, that's the right kernel16:14
pittimarjo: ah, nice! so we can consider this done16:14
pittisconklin: so that leaves the -ec2 one16:15
pittibug updated16:15
marjopitti: only if we agree that HW cert tests did not have to be run, see bug report please16:15
pittimarjo: it was a security update only, so I think that's fine16:15
marjopitti: ack16:15
sconklinmarjo, victorp, skaet - I'm dependent on the people who do the testing to determine what's possible. We need to figure out what we're doing as a rule and document it16:15
pittiwe just need to guard against misbuilds and grave errors here16:15
smb`pitti, sconklin I guess i can try to get some generic boot/regression testing done for ec2 either today or tomorrow16:15
sconklinpitti: agreed16:15
sconklinsmb`: thanks16:16
pittismb`: that sounds fine16:16
skaetsconklin, pitti,  agreed.16:16
pittiec2 is basically just on kvm, isn't it? so that shouldn't be too hard to test16:16
victorpsconklin - agreed , I am happy to document the hwcert part , let me know where16:16
skaetsmb thanks.16:16
skaetok,  moving on...16:17
skaet[TOPIC] 10.04.216:17
MootBotNew Topic:  10.04.216:17
skaetsconklin, any update on the kernel milestoned bugs?16:17
sconklinThere was one bug milestoned, and I just chatted with Robbie - it's probably going to be rescheduled16:18
skaetthanks sconklin.  :)16:18
skaetany one around from foundations today?  (cjwatson's on holiday)16:19
=== Ursinha is now known as Ursinha-lunch
skaethmm,  no bugs tagged against server at the moment so we're good there.16:19
skaetpitti,  any update on the desktop milestoned ones?16:19
pittiskaet: I updated the wiki page16:20
skaetpitti,  thanks!  :)16:20
pittithe summary is that none of them are currently being worked on16:20
pittione is just a "do it" thing (geode), the other two are pretty much "won'tfix"16:20
pittiwe don't currently have active work on 10.04.2 in teh desktop team16:20
pittiis there something we should focus on?16:21
skaetany chance we'll get someone to work on OOo?16:21
skaetbetween now and Feb?16:21
ograskaet, see the ML, doko already did it seems16:21
pittiskaet: question for Jason, I don't have an update since december16:22
pittidoko heroically packaged LibO for natty, though16:22
pitti(not finished yet)16:22
skaetogra, cool.   will look into it a bit more.  was just looking at top level status this morning.16:22
skaetpitti,  fair 'nuf.   will follow up with jason, and keep fingers crossed on the rest.16:23
skaetwill dig into the 10.04.2 bugs in more detail this week and next.   release is 2/17, so there's still time.16:24
skaetany questions/comments?16:24
micahgabout 10.04.2 in general?16:24
skaet[TOPIC] Stable Release Updates16:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Stable Release Updates16:24
skaetmicahg, yup sorry...16:25
micahgyes, I was wondering about the release timeline WRT freezes16:25
* micahg apologizes for not raising a hand16:25
skaetmicahg, no worries.   will take an action to set the date, and broadcast.16:26
* skaet will go back into the precedent emails :)16:26
skaetanyone else?16:27
skaetok,  back to Stable Release16:27
skaetsconklin,  know you're just back, but anything on the hot plate?16:28
sconklinNot that I'm aware of, but I haven't even cleared email yet16:28
ograsame here16:28
dokoskaet: what di you to know about foundations?16:28
skaetthanks sconklin, ogra16:28
skaetdoko,  just wondering if any updates on the 10.04.2 milestoned bugs from foundations team.16:29
dokosorry, don't know16:29
skaetno worries.16:30
skaetpitti, sconklin - so I'm guessing no need for a hw cert run, or regression runs this week?16:30
pittiskaet: not that I can see16:30
rtg__if there are resources, then how about testing karmic?16:31
sconklinskaet: we're going to discuss today whether we can upload a new cycle start by Friday.16:31
skaetvictorp, marjo ^^16:31
marjoskaet: ack16:31
skaetsconklin, ack16:31
bjfrtg__, discussed and someone is on it16:32
skaetrtg__, see earlier in log.16:32
skaetsconklin, victorp, marjo,  when is the next reasonable date to aim for lucid/maverick then?16:32
victorprtg_ we would like to focus this week on natty16:32
rtg__sorry, my machine wedged and I must have missed it16:33
victorpskaet - date to start or to release?16:33
sconklinskaet: we'd really like to hit Friday upload but don't know if we can make it16:33
bjfvictorp, what's natty? :-)16:33
victorpskaet - I would like to avoid a "2nd week" during the rally16:33
sconklinWe'll let everyone know by tomorrow morning16:34
skaetvictorp, sconklin - how about aim for testing cycle, week after rally then, and release that thursday?16:34
victorpbjf - dont know anymore :)16:34
sconklinThat would put first week during the rally16:34
sconklin"Verification Phase"16:34
marjoskaet: two possible conflicts: 1) rally 2) US holiday 17 January16:34
skaetmarjo, sconklin - true16:35
marjoskaet: more concerned about rally conflict16:35
victorpskaet - I wanted to clarify one thing - if we call it a "regression week" and we release on thursday, that means that the proposed kernels for regression have to be made available the thursday before, right?16:35
marjobut should be manageable16:35
victorpmarjo - not for hw cert as laptops need to be rebooted manually and might not have anyone in the lab16:36
skaetvictorp, yes,  kernels should be avail week before.16:36
victorpskaet - thanks16:36
marjovictorp: ack16:36
sconklinlet's please try to use the names "verification phase" and "testing phase"16:36
skaetso,  should we just aim for releasing on Jan 20,  or  Jan 27?16:36
skaetsconklin,  I'll go mark up the interlock that way if it will help.16:37
sconklinskaet: yeah, naming was not handled well by me at the outset, and I'm trying to unify everything now16:37
skaetok - will do.16:38
victorpsconklin ack16:38
victorpskaet - I vote for the 27th16:38
skaetright now shedule has 1/6 and 1/27 as release dates for SRU targets.    Does it make sense to drop 1/27 and just go with 1/20?16:39
* skaet types too slow for victorp16:39
skaetif there's nothing on the hot burner, some focus on natty and the lucid 10.04.2 bugs makes sense.16:40
victorpskaet - 1/20 means the verification phase is during the rally, is that ok?16:40
skaetvictorp,  good point.16:40
marjoskaet: if we're voting, then i vote for release on 1/2716:40
skaetok, 1/27 it is.16:40
skaetany other topics to discuss today on the SRU side?16:41
skaetgoing once?16:41
skaetok, probably time to end the meeting.16:42
skaetthanks everyone for participating.  :)16:42
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:42.16:42
marjoskaet: thx!16:42
ograthanks for holding the first meeting this year ;)16:42
victorpthanks skaet - sorry for my late appearance !16:42
ograsame here16:42
ograsomehow my gcal notification didnt go off it seems16:42
skaetthanks marjo, victorp, ogra, pitti, sconklin, bjf!16:42
pittithanks all16:43
micahgthanks skaet16:44
skaetthanks micahg :)16:45
skaetwill see if we can nail down that freeze shortly.  :)16:45
micahgskaet: great, thanks16:46
skaetmicahg, thanks for bringing it up.  :)16:46
czajkowskiogra: sure you're not using an iphone alarm :)17:03
=== Ursinha-lunch is now known as Ursinha
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
ograczajkowski, i dont use apple products ;)17:34
czajkowskiogra: no exuse so :) hope you had a good christmas17:38
ograi did17:39
* ogra has a new housemate :)17:39
czajkowskiahh cat!17:41
czajkowskicats freak me out17:41
czajkowskiand also scare me17:42
=== bilalakhtar_ is now known as cdbs
=== bilalakhtar_ is now known as cdbs
* DJones offers czajkowski a kebab stick to deal with the cat18:09
czajkowskianother thing that should be not be allowed, Kebabs!18:10
ogratell that to the turks18:10
czajkowskiogra: do you go to FOSDEM ?18:10
ograi'm pondering18:10
ogradepends a bit on the weather18:10
czajkowskiyou should it is full of awesome!18:11
DJonesczajkowski: Kebabs are good as long as its not a donner kebab18:11
ograi guess i'll decide it spontaneous ... i havent been there since 200618:11
Nafallois it full of kebab?18:13
Pendulumczajkowski: you don't like kebab?18:15
* barry waves19:00
sorencjwatson, persia, cody-somerville, bdrung: We have a DMB meeting now, don't we?19:03
bdrungyes, we have!19:03
cody-somervillewe do? I thought it wasn't for another hour19:04
cody-somervilleand usually its another hour after that :P19:04
sorencody-somerville: Did it move?19:04
cody-somervillenot that I know of.19:04
cody-somervillemaybe google calendar is just broken crap19:04
bdrung"date -u" shows Mo 3. Jan 19:04:34 UTC 201119:04
sorenThen I'm reasonably sure it's now. Reasonably being the operative word.19:04
sorenI don't think the current time is being debated :)19:05
barrythe wiki page says the meeting is at 1900 utc19:05
sorenIt's whether that happens to coincide with the time set for this meeting.19:05
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
sorenWciked .19:05
sorenWicked, even.19:05
* soren <--- Now with improved typing.19:05
cody-somervillehmm... I don't see an event on the fridge calendar for the DMB meeting19:05
cody-somervilleI'm pretty sure there used to be one19:05
sorenDon't believe everything you read.19:06
sorenOr don't read.19:06
* cody-somerville creates new events.19:08
cody-somervilleugh, and you can't use UTC :(19:08
sorenWhat do you have to use?19:08
sorencody-somerville: ^19:08
* cody-somerville is looking up a timezone that he can use that always matches UTC.19:09
sorencody-somerville: ^19:09
sorenThey have no DST and are at UTC+0.19:09
sorenI forget what the Something is. Politically, Iceland is European, but it's probably Atlantic/Reykjavik or something.19:11
cody-somervillewow. what happened to google calendars. Its all hard to use now. I can't see where to make an event repeating and had a hard time finding out how to set the time (its on a separate tab :S)19:13
cody-somervilleoh, there it is19:13
bdrungwhere are the others?19:14
cody-somervilleHoliday in the UK19:15
cody-somervilleFYI, I added DMB meeting to Fridge Calendar. It should be the right time from now on. Can everyone check to make sure it shows up right for them?19:15
barrydang, so likely no quorum?19:16
* geser is here now19:16
sorenThat makes four of us.19:17
bdrungthen let's begin.19:19
sorenSure, go ahead.19:20
sorenWow, you walked right into that one.19:20
bdrungi was asking who want to be chair?19:20
sorenI know. I was just jokingly assuming you were volunteering.19:22
bdrungcody-somerville: maybe you? you should have been the chair for the last meeting.19:22
=== cody-somerville changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
cody-somerville^^ Calendar now understands 'UTC' FYI19:23
MootBotMeeting started at 13:23. The chair is cody-somerville.19:23
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]19:23
cody-somervillebut someone else has to do the write up and update the agenda + minutes on wiki :P19:24
cody-somerville[TOPIC] Review of previous action items19:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Review of previous action items19:24
cody-somerville* Colin Watson to find a convenient time for a meeting for Martin Pool's application.19:24
cody-somervilleColin Watson isn't present, carrying action item19:24
cody-somerville[TOPIC] Administrative Matters19:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Administrative Matters19:24
cody-somerville* Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development19:24
bdrungcody-somerville: the fridge calendar says "The calendar below is in GMT (no daylight savings)."19:25
cody-somervilleI sent out an e-mail while I was on vacation to Marco with details of the consensus we reached at the last DMB meeting.19:25
bdrungthanks for sending the mail.19:25
cody-somervillebdrung, I changed the timezone of the calendar to that iceland one soren said. It doesn't have daylights saving so will always be GMT+0 which is UTC19:26
cody-somervilleAnything else to discuss regarding Marco? I haven't got a response back from him.19:26
sorenWaiting on him, them.19:26
cody-somerville* Review responsibilities and requirements of DMB delegates (CodySomerville)19:26
cody-somervilleI'll write an e-mail up about this and send it to the list. We can discuss at meeting after that.19:27
* stgraber just noticed the meeting. Kind of around if you need me19:27
cody-somerville[TOPIC] Package Sets19:27
MootBotNew Topic:  Package Sets19:27
cody-somervilleNo applications this week.19:27
cody-somerville[TOPIC] PerPackageUploader Applications19:27
MootBotNew Topic:  PerPackageUploader Applications19:27
cody-somerville* MartinPool/DeveloperApplication19:27
cody-somerville[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication19:27
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication19:27
sorenstgraber: Sorry, forgot to ping you, too :(19:28
cody-somervilleHe doesn't appear to be on IRC at the moment.19:28
cody-somerville[TOPIC] Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications19:28
MootBotNew Topic:  Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications19:28
cody-somervilleNo applications this week.19:28
geserany questions left that didn't get asked on the last meeting?19:28
cody-somerville[TOPIC] MOTU Applications19:28
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU Applications19:28
cody-somerville* Angel Abad19:29
cody-somerville[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad/MOTUApplication19:29
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad/MOTUApplication19:29
angelabadHi, Im here!19:29
cody-somervilleangelabad, Hello. Please introduce yourself and explain why you feel you should be granted MOTU status.19:29
angelabadHi, Im Angel Abad from Basque19:30
angelabadCountry (Spain), Im universe contributor, and I work specially19:31
angelabadin merges and sync, also im debian maintainer and in dd process, I think19:31
angelabadI have good skills for packaging and I can help a lot in Universe packages19:31
angelabadyou can see my endorsements, I think them are good endrosements.19:32
cody-somervilleangelabad, Have you ever packaged any software from scratch?19:32
angelabadcody-somerville, not for ubuntu, but yes for Debian19:32
angelabadyou can see my packages http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=angelabad%40gmail.com19:33
angelabadperl packages are group packages, but others like almanah or dajax are packaged for me from scratch19:33
bdrungangelabad: you wrote "sometimes poorly tested software is included in Ubuntu distribution". do you have any idea how to improve the quality?19:33
angelabadbdrung, sincerely no, I think this is the result of unstable sync19:34
cody-somervilleangelabad, Is https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mango-lassi/001+dfsg-3 a sync?19:35
angelabadcody-somerville, yes19:36
* cody-somerville wishes Launchpad would make that more obvious.19:36
bdrungangelabad: so we should sync from testing instead?19:36
angelabadbdrung, I dont know, but a possibility would be to wait some days after sync with unstable, only an idea...19:37
bdrungangelabad: wait some days? you mean, that a unstable package should only synced if it is x days old?19:39
angelabadbdrung, yes19:40
bdrunginteresting suggestion19:40
bdrungangelabad: you could start a discussion on the ubuntu-devel mailing list19:41
angelabadbdrung, ok!19:42
cody-somervilleangelabad, Are you familiar with the SRU and freeze exception policies?19:43
angelabadcody-somerville, sincerelly not much, I know I must work more on SRUs, but I promise to work hard on it19:44
macoangelabad: did you know that for lucid we actually did sync from testing instead of unstable? (sorry to interrupt)19:45
angelabadmaco, no19:46
angelabadi dont know that19:46
sorenI'm ready to vote.19:50
bdrungme too19:50
geserme too19:50
* soren pokes cody-somerville 19:52
cody-somerville[VOTE] MOTU Application: Angel Abad19:53
MootBotPlease vote on:  MOTU Application: Angel Abad.19:53
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot19:53
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting19:53
MootBot+1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 119:53
MootBot+1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 219:53
MootBot+1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 319:53
MootBot+1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 419:54
MootBotAbstention received from cody-somerville. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 419:54
MootBotFinal result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 419:54
cody-somervilleangelabad, Congratulations.19:55
angelabadthanks a lot for your votes!19:55
cody-somerville[TOPIC] Ubuntu Core Developer Applications19:55
MootBotNew Topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer Applications19:55
cody-somerville* Barry Warsaw19:55
cody-somerville[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication19:55
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication19:55
* barry waves19:55
cody-somervillebarry, Hello Barry. Please take a moment to introduce yourself and why you feel you should be granted Core Developer status.19:56
barryi'm barry warsaw, and i have been on the platform foundations team @ canonical for (iirc) over a year now.  i have been a python core dev for 15+ years, been doing s/w development for maybe 30.  working on becoming a dd.  i am intimately involved in the python 2.7 transition for natty.19:57
* geser points also at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/12/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:00 for some questioning of barry (and poolie) at the last (informal) meeting19:58
barryhaving core dev status would greatly help natty dev as it would reduce the lag for fixing 2.7 transition issues (there is no python package set, and i understand will not be because of complexity).  i think i have a pretty good grasp of packaging, and am not afraid to ask questions19:59
barrygeser: thanks, yes we had a long discussion at the last meeting before the new year19:59
barryi've done a few packages from scratch and have fixed a bunch of existing packages19:59
bdrungbarry: what's the current status of becoming DD?20:01
barrybdrung: it's going slowly because i'm concentrating on ubuntu, and it takes longer to get turnaround on sponsored packages in debian.  but it's progressing and i intend to make another push at it after the platform rally20:02
barryi've got my own packages and am adopting more to help out with.  i'm pretty active in debian-python20:02
cody-somervilleDo you do any work outside of Python in Ubuntu or Debian?20:02
barrycody-somerville: atm no, but that's still includes a wide range of technology (e.g. because of embedding, c and c++ is included).  the 2.7 transition is consuming my time this cycle, but i'm certainly comfortable in c, c++, java at the very least.  i'm a good software breaker and fixer :)20:04
barryi've got a firm grasp of autotools too20:04
cody-somervillebarry, Have you ever completed the freeze exception process, SRU process, or security update process in Ubuntu?20:05
barrycody-somerville: i have not had occasion to yet.  i've read the docs, but until you actually do it...  i vaguely remember assisting others with a few such requests20:06
cody-somervilleDoes anyone else have any questions for barry?20:08
cody-somerville[VOTE] Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Barry Warsaw20:09
MootBotPlease vote on:  Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Barry Warsaw.20:09
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot20:09
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting20:09
cody-somerville-0 Although a smart guy who I'm sure will be a core developer some day, unfortunately currently does not meet criteria for Core Dev.20:10
cody-somerville-1 Although a smart guy who I'm sure will be a core developer some day, unfortunately currently does not meet criteria for Core Dev.20:11
MootBot-1 received from cody-somerville. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -120:11
MootBot+1 received from geser. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 020:12
MootBotAbstention received from bdrung. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 020:16
gesersoren, stgraber: ?20:19
MootBot+1 received from soren. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 120:19
sorenSorry, phased out for a bit there.20:19
MootBotFinal result is 2 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 120:20
sorengeser: Thanks for the nudge.20:20
cody-somervillebarry, Unfortunately your application for Core Developer status has been denied for the time being.20:20
barrycody-somerville, bdrung can you describe what you would like to see from me for you to be able to comfortably give me a +1?  i will be back :)20:21
cody-somervillebarry, I recommend being move involved with the Ubuntu development processes before applying again. I also want to see solid endorsements on your application and preferably no negative ones.20:21
cody-somervillebarry, I also recommend branching out from just python stuff.20:22
cody-somervillebarry, That is critical. You need to be a generalist to be a core developer.20:22
cody-somervillebarry, If you were applying for upload permissions to just python stuff, I would have gave +1 - something you might also consider instead of core developer in the near future.20:23
barrycody-somerville: okay, i understand you want proof of that.  i am a generalist who is consumed in one area right now.20:23
barryunfortunately there is no way that i know of to ask for upload permissions to just python stuff :(20:23
cody-somervillebarry, Request the creation of a python package set20:24
ScottKcody-somerville: IIRC cjwatson has already said he's unwilling to administer such a package set.20:25
geserwon't happen20:25
macocody-somerville: that was mentioned last time and i think cjwatson said it was unfeasible20:25
barrycody-somerville: i did that on ubuntu-devel a few months ago and received silence.  also, at the last meeting cjwatson effectively shot that down as being too complicate (probably rightly so)20:25
cody-somerville*python toolchain package set20:25
tumbleweedbarry: would MOTU + PPU help in the mean-time? Or are you touching too many main packages?20:25
barrytumbleweed: i am touching many main packages ;)20:26
barryi have ppu to a few but it seems infeasible to ask for ppu on everything i'm going to touch20:26
* micahg thinks python toolchain packageset sounds like a good idea, but isn't sure how many packages that is or if it helps20:26
cody-somervilleAnyhow, lets wrap up.20:27
cody-somerville[topic] Select a chair for the next meeting20:27
MootBotNew Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting20:27
cody-somervilleno volunteers? Okay.20:28
MootBotMeeting finished at 14:28.20:28
cody-somervillegeser, Would you be kind enough to take care of the meeting minutes for me? :)20:28
barrythank you guys20:28
gesercody-somerville: sure, can do20:29
sorenThere's plenty of prior art to granting people with narrow focus core-dev privs.20:29
macoRiddell tells me that when he got core dev privs, he was told to try to stick to packages that start with K20:30
geserand see also cjwatson mail to the dmb mailing list about being us to "conservative"20:30
gesermaco: luckily the the kernel starts with "l" :)20:30
* bdrung was interrupted by an phone call.20:30
micahgwell, there are guidelines on teh wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#Ubuntu%20Core%20Developers20:31
gesercody-somerville: don't remember and don't have access to my mailbox right now, but it was short after the last meeting (Dec 20th)20:31
cody-somervillemicahg, indeed20:31
barrymicahg: yes, but those guidelines aren't terribly specific20:32
cody-somervillebarry will be core dev someday and he will most likely continue to have a narrow focus on python stuff20:32
barrygiven my job description, yes ;)20:32
micahgbarry: well, they're general, but give a good idea of what is needed for a core-dev, do you believe that you meet those guidelines at the moment?20:33
micahgcody-somerville: I definitely agree20:33
micahgerr, maybe not entirely :-/20:33
cody-somervillemicahg, hmm?20:34
micahgcody-somerville: err, ignore that20:34
barrymicahg: well, "have a history of substantial direct contributions to the distribution" is probably one ding that i could reasonably have, though it's not a guideline that provides clear goals on what that history should be.  i.e. 50 packages?  100?  one year?  two years?  see what i mean?20:34
bdrungbarry: from the wiki: "have a strong working knowledge of Ubuntu project procedures" - having done a SRU or security fix.20:35
micahg* are able to apply this knowledge to a variety of packages and subsystems20:35
bdrungbarry: ^20:35
barrybdrung: okay, fair enough, though i would submit that the guideline should say exactly that20:35
micahgbarry: yeah, that is subjective, but I think once the other pieces are met, that falls into place20:35
bdrungbarry: i like to see more packages here: http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=barry@python.org&comaint=yes20:36
bdrungbarry: i like to see more/stronger endorsements. compare https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad/MOTUApplication with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication20:37
barrybdrung: respectfully, i think that's a bit unfair.  while i am committed to helping out more with debian, i don't think it should be a *requirement* for core ubuntu dev20:37
barrybdrung: yes, i need to be more aggressive in twisting the arms of folks i've worked with :)20:38
bdrungbarry: debian work is not a requirement for a core dev, but shows the packaging skills.20:38
barrybdrung: yep.  please also understand i have no hard feelings, and i am happy to go through the process correctly.  i hope you understand that my being critical of the process (or perhaps the written embodiment of it) is a negative reaction to missing out this time!20:40
barryi want to understand exactly what is required so that it will be easier for the next folks to go through it20:41
barryer, *is not* a negative reaction!20:42
macoheh this reminds me of when i became a motu. "have you done a merge?" "yes, a half hour ago" "why a half hour ago?" "i figured itd be a definite no if i had to answer no to that question"20:43
* micahg wonders if new packageset maintenance tools would help20:44
barryanything we can do to allow people to become more involved would be a good thing20:46
bdrungbarry: look at the picture at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers?action=recall&rev=5720:49
bdrungbarry: the way was to become a contributor, a motu, and then a core-dev20:50
macoexcept those dotted lines... i mean, most people skip the yellow box20:51
barrybdrung: interesting.  why was that diagram removed?20:51
macoim guessing because packagesets make it so much more fine-grained than that image shows now20:52
bdrungbarry: dunno.20:52
barryit also doesn't address ppu as a step in the process20:52
bdrungbut having one step between becoming core-dev would be nice.20:52
macocould be in the ubuntu-desktop packageset without being a motu, for instance20:52
barrythat might be a good next step before coming back to request core20:54
bdrungbarry: two things made me hesitate: 1) experience (26 uploads). for example, i had 100 uploads when i became core-dev (gone through contributor -> motu -> core-dev). 2) broad knowledge (e.g. SRUs)20:58
bdrungand your debian qa page didn't support point one.20:59
barrybdrung: i think that's fair enough, and i do appreciate the feedback.  i have confidence my upload number will look more appealing by the end of natty and i'll attempt to get direct sru experience.  i'll also concentrate more on the debian side of things, though i do think i understand packaging fairly well21:01
bdrungas core-dev you should gave gone through an complete release cycle.21:01
macohe has, hasnt he? given his time at cnaonical...21:02
ari-tczewbarry: compare Bhavi, which joined MOTU with 1000+ uploads done and you with 26 uploads to core-dev :)21:02
bdrungari-tczew: Bhavi won't set the lower limit for uploads ;)21:03
barrymaco: yes.  i went on rotation with foundations at maverick21:03
bdrungbarry: experience is more than just understanding packaging.21:04
tumbleweedof course there's also a difference between inexperienced developers with only distro experience, and experienced developers gettingo into distro work21:05
bdrungbarry: i suggest to reapply for core-dev after the natty cycle.21:06
barryari-tczew: true, but it should not be just a numbers game i hope!  my concern is that ubuntu development is too bureaucratic and will discourage people who could be great contributors.  i'm not worried about myself, since i'm a stubborn bastard and will be back again, but ime, it doesn't take much to discourage many good folks from participating.21:06
bdrungtumbleweed: good point.21:06
barrybdrung, tumbleweed true21:06
barrybdrung: thanks, i will21:06
bdrungbarry: re bureaucratic, does this apply only to the dmb or are there other things that are too bureaucratic too?21:07
ari-tczewbarry: conclusion from all feedbacks here: you should got PPU for all python-related packages21:07
bdrungari-tczew: that wont happen (too much work to maintain that package set)21:08
barrybdrung: irc is probably not the best forum to explore that in depth, but in general, it's very valuable to take a critical eye on all processes and steps.  this is something we were very good at on the launchpad project and it helped eliminate waste and discouragement.21:11
barrybdrung: i'd love to chat with you about it at a future uds :)21:13
bdrungbarry: yes. the ubuntu devel mailing list would be a better place for discussing it.21:13
bdrungbarry: i would love to go to an uds, but the last times i wasn't sponsored by canonical.21:14
barrybdrung: +1.  it's one of the reasons why i don't at all mind going through the process.  you have to live through it to understand it, but you also have to keep a newbie's mind to empathize with what people go through21:14
cody-somervilleWell, I certainly hope we don't feel 'newbies' should be applying for core-dev ;-)21:15
barrybdrung: ah.  when uds-o comes around, please do ping me if you would like to apply for sponsorship21:15
barrycody-somerville: no, but there should be a very clear path to obtaining it, and that is something that i feel is lacking right now21:16
barrythere's a path, but there's overgrowth and some of the blazes are missing :)21:16
* bdrung agrees that the criteria for becoming core-dev/motu/... is not defined precisely. it leaves room for interpretation and different dmb member make different judgements.21:18
cody-somervilleI think that we need to continue to work on the archive reorg stuff. We shouldn't be giving people core-dev because its convenient permission wise.21:18
bdrungbarry: thanks. i am taking down a note to ping you.21:18
micahgcody-somerville: I definitely agree with that :)21:19
barrycody-somerville: yes, definitely21:20
=== Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth
cody-somervillecore-dev is one of the highest echelons in our development community. Its not just about being trusted to upload any package in the archive, its a position of leadership and responsibility.21:21
barrycody-somerville: that's a valuable distinction that isn't really clear from reading the available wiki docs.  in that sense, perhaps "core-dev" conflates two concepts that should really be separated.  packagesets and ppu attempt to address that, but perhaps don't go far enough21:27
geserdoes somebody know if ArchiveReorg is fully completed yet?21:29
barrygeser: i do not21:33
micahggeser: I think the goal is by 12.0421:34
micahgactually maybe not even by then21:34

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