[06:51] <Tyron> Wann
[15:59]  * skaet looks around and sees some familiar nicks  :)
[16:00]  * micahg waves
[16:00] <pitti> hello skaet, happy new year!
[16:00]  * charlie-tca waves
[16:00] <skaet> :)
[16:00] <skaet> #startmeeting
[16:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet.
[16:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:00] <skaet> Happy New Year all!
[16:00] <skaet> Not sure if we'll have quorum or not, but a quick run through of the agenda, so we know the questions to ask this week seems appropriate.
[16:00] <marjo> happy new year to all!
[16:01] <skaet> Agenda can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/StableReleaseAgenda
[16:01] <skaet> Reminder, please follow the convention  of using ".." on a separate line when you've finished typing.    Also, If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.
[16:02] <skaet> and with that probably a good idea to start off...
[16:03] <skaet> [TOPIC] open action items
[16:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  open action items
[16:03] <skaet> marjo - any update on the SRU test reports being added into the agenda?
[16:04] <marjo> skaet: please mark that one done; we'll include starting this week
[16:04] <skaet> awesome!  thanks marjo.
[16:04] <skaet> victorp,  how about the cert ones?
[16:05] <skaet> hmm,  no victorp yet...
[16:05] <skaet> any other updates to the open action items?
[16:06] <skaet> ok, moving on
[16:06] <skaet> [TOPIC] Bug updates
[16:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bug updates
[16:07] <skaet> since last month there's been about +37 bugs opened for maverick,   +24 on lucid.
[16:07] <pitti> urgh; hopefully most of them as part of SRU uploads?
[16:07] <skaet> not sure
[16:08] <skaet> just started looking at the numbers this morning, and I think some serious triaging may be needed.
[16:08] <skaet> esp. with 10.04.2 scheduled for next month the lucid ones are a bit of a concern.
[16:08] <marjo> skaet: will follow up w/ bdmurray re: triaging
[16:08] <skaet> thanks marjo.  :)
[16:09] <skaet> pitti, where are things standing with karmic SRU release right now?  (did one go out?)
[16:09] <victorp> skaet - hi
[16:09] <pitti> skaet: very few; basically the kernel churn, and there are two untested papyon/tomboy packages in -proposed
[16:10] <pitti> ..
[16:10] <skaet> thanks pitti.
[16:10] <sconklin> What about the Karmic kernel still in -proposed?
[16:11] <pitti> sconklin: untested, and -ec2 doesn't even have a tracking bug
[16:11] <pitti> see bug 683474
[16:11] <sconklin> we're only testing maverick and lucid
[16:12] <sconklin> Karmic falls back to the old "time in proposed"
[16:12] <skaet> hmm,   this probably needs to be made clearer then in the process docs.
[16:12] <skaet> if that's the concensus.
[16:13] <pitti> so we still need someone in the community to install and test that kernel
[16:13] <marjo> pitti, sconklin: pedro tested http://people.canonical.com/~pedro/kernel/kernel-2.6.31-22.70/
[16:13] <sconklin> well, Ideally everything would get all testing, but we're resource-bound
[16:14] <skaet> we schedule runs  (of earlier) in when there are gaps with maverick/lucid testing?
[16:14] <bjf> marjo, that's the right kernel
[16:14] <pitti> marjo: ah, nice! so we can consider this done
[16:15] <pitti> sconklin: so that leaves the -ec2 one
[16:15] <pitti> bug updated
[16:15] <marjo> pitti: only if we agree that HW cert tests did not have to be run, see bug report please
[16:15] <pitti> marjo: it was a security update only, so I think that's fine
[16:15] <marjo> pitti: ack
[16:15] <sconklin> marjo, victorp, skaet - I'm dependent on the people who do the testing to determine what's possible. We need to figure out what we're doing as a rule and document it
[16:15] <pitti> we just need to guard against misbuilds and grave errors here
[16:15] <smb`> pitti, sconklin I guess i can try to get some generic boot/regression testing done for ec2 either today or tomorrow
[16:15] <sconklin> pitti: agreed
[16:16] <sconklin> smb`: thanks
[16:16] <pitti> smb`: that sounds fine
[16:16] <skaet> sconklin, pitti,  agreed.
[16:16] <pitti> ec2 is basically just on kvm, isn't it? so that shouldn't be too hard to test
[16:16] <victorp> sconklin - agreed , I am happy to document the hwcert part , let me know where
[16:16] <skaet> smb thanks.
[16:17] <skaet> ok,  moving on...
[16:17] <skaet> [TOPIC] 10.04.2
[16:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  10.04.2
[16:17] <skaet> sconklin, any update on the kernel milestoned bugs?
[16:18] <sconklin> There was one bug milestoned, and I just chatted with Robbie - it's probably going to be rescheduled
[16:18] <skaet> thanks sconklin.  :)
[16:19] <skaet> any one around from foundations today?  (cjwatson's on holiday)
[16:19] <skaet> hmm,  no bugs tagged against server at the moment so we're good there.
[16:19] <skaet> pitti,  any update on the desktop milestoned ones?
[16:20] <pitti> skaet: I updated the wiki page
[16:20] <skaet> pitti,  thanks!  :)
[16:20] <pitti> the summary is that none of them are currently being worked on
[16:20] <pitti> one is just a "do it" thing (geode), the other two are pretty much "won'tfix"
[16:20] <pitti> we don't currently have active work on 10.04.2 in teh desktop team
[16:21] <pitti> is there something we should focus on?
[16:21] <pitti> ..
[16:21] <skaet> any chance we'll get someone to work on OOo?
[16:21] <skaet> between now and Feb?
[16:21] <ogra> skaet, see the ML, doko already did it seems
[16:22] <pitti> skaet: question for Jason, I don't have an update since december
[16:22] <pitti> holidays..
[16:22] <pitti> doko heroically packaged LibO for natty, though
[16:22] <pitti> (not finished yet)
[16:22] <skaet> ogra, cool.   will look into it a bit more.  was just looking at top level status this morning.
[16:23] <skaet> pitti,  fair 'nuf.   will follow up with jason, and keep fingers crossed on the rest.
[16:24] <skaet> will dig into the 10.04.2 bugs in more detail this week and next.   release is 2/17, so there's still time.
[16:24] <skaet> any questions/comments?
[16:24] <micahg> about 10.04.2 in general?
[16:24] <skaet> [TOPIC] Stable Release Updates
[16:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Stable Release Updates
[16:25] <skaet> micahg, yup sorry...
[16:25] <micahg> yes, I was wondering about the release timeline WRT freezes
[16:25]  * micahg apologizes for not raising a hand
[16:26] <skaet> micahg, no worries.   will take an action to set the date, and broadcast.
[16:26]  * skaet will go back into the precedent emails :)
[16:27] <skaet> anyone else?
[16:27] <skaet> ok,  back to Stable Release
[16:28] <skaet> sconklin,  know you're just back, but anything on the hot plate?
[16:28] <sconklin> Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't even cleared email yet
[16:28] <ogra> same here
[16:28] <doko> skaet: what di you to know about foundations?
[16:28] <skaet> thanks sconklin, ogra
[16:29] <skaet> doko,  just wondering if any updates on the 10.04.2 milestoned bugs from foundations team.
[16:29] <doko> sorry, don't know
[16:30] <skaet> no worries.
[16:30] <skaet> pitti, sconklin - so I'm guessing no need for a hw cert run, or regression runs this week?
[16:30] <pitti> skaet: not that I can see
[16:31] <rtg__> if there are resources, then how about testing karmic?
[16:31] <sconklin> skaet: we're going to discuss today whether we can upload a new cycle start by Friday.
[16:31] <skaet> victorp, marjo ^^
[16:31] <marjo> skaet: ack
[16:31] <skaet> sconklin, ack
[16:32] <bjf> rtg__, discussed and someone is on it
[16:32] <skaet> rtg__, see earlier in log.
[16:32] <skaet> sconklin, victorp, marjo,  when is the next reasonable date to aim for lucid/maverick then?
[16:32] <victorp> rtg_ we would like to focus this week on natty
[16:33] <rtg__> sorry, my machine wedged and I must have missed it
[16:33] <victorp> skaet - date to start or to release?
[16:33] <sconklin> skaet: we'd really like to hit Friday upload but don't know if we can make it
[16:33] <bjf> victorp, what's natty? :-)
[16:33] <victorp> skaet - I would like to avoid a "2nd week" during the rally
[16:34] <sconklin> We'll let everyone know by tomorrow morning
[16:34] <skaet> victorp, sconklin - how about aim for testing cycle, week after rally then, and release that thursday?
[16:34] <victorp> bjf - dont know anymore :)
[16:34] <sconklin> That would put first week during the rally
[16:34] <sconklin> "Verification Phase"
[16:34] <marjo> skaet: two possible conflicts: 1) rally 2) US holiday 17 January
[16:35] <skaet> marjo, sconklin - true
[16:35] <marjo> skaet: more concerned about rally conflict
[16:35] <victorp> skaet - I wanted to clarify one thing - if we call it a "regression week" and we release on thursday, that means that the proposed kernels for regression have to be made available the thursday before, right?
[16:35] <marjo> but should be manageable
[16:36] <victorp> marjo - not for hw cert as laptops need to be rebooted manually and might not have anyone in the lab
[16:36] <skaet> victorp, yes,  kernels should be avail week before.
[16:36] <victorp> skaet - thanks
[16:36] <marjo> victorp: ack
[16:36] <sconklin> let's please try to use the names "verification phase" and "testing phase"
[16:36] <skaet> so,  should we just aim for releasing on Jan 20,  or  Jan 27?
[16:37] <skaet> sconklin,  I'll go mark up the interlock that way if it will help.
[16:37] <sconklin> skaet: yeah, naming was not handled well by me at the outset, and I'm trying to unify everything now
[16:37] <sconklin> thanks
[16:38] <skaet> ok - will do.
[16:38] <victorp> sconklin ack
[16:38] <victorp> skaet - I vote for the 27th
[16:39] <skaet> right now shedule has 1/6 and 1/27 as release dates for SRU targets.    Does it make sense to drop 1/27 and just go with 1/20?
[16:39] <skaet> heh
[16:39]  * skaet types too slow for victorp
[16:40] <skaet> if there's nothing on the hot burner, some focus on natty and the lucid 10.04.2 bugs makes sense.
[16:40] <victorp> skaet - 1/20 means the verification phase is during the rally, is that ok?
[16:40] <skaet> victorp,  good point.
[16:40] <marjo> skaet: if we're voting, then i vote for release on 1/27
[16:40] <skaet> ok, 1/27 it is.
[16:41] <skaet> any other topics to discuss today on the SRU side?
[16:41] <skaet> going once?
[16:42] <skaet> twice?
[16:42] <skaet> ok, probably time to end the meeting.
[16:42] <skaet> thanks everyone for participating.  :)
[16:42] <ogra> \o/
[16:42] <skaet> #endmeeting
[16:42] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:42.
[16:42] <marjo> skaet: thx!
[16:42] <ogra> thanks for holding the first meeting this year ;)
[16:42] <victorp> thanks skaet - sorry for my late appearance !
[16:42] <ogra> same here
[16:42] <ogra> somehow my gcal notification didnt go off it seems
[16:42] <skaet> thanks marjo, victorp, ogra, pitti, sconklin, bjf!
[16:43] <pitti> thanks all
[16:44] <micahg> thanks skaet
[16:45] <skaet> thanks micahg :)
[16:45] <skaet> will see if we can nail down that freeze shortly.  :)
[16:46] <micahg> skaet: great, thanks
[16:46] <skaet> micahg, thanks for bringing it up.  :)
[17:03] <czajkowski> ogra: sure you're not using an iphone alarm :)
[17:34] <ogra> czajkowski, i dont use apple products ;)
[17:38] <czajkowski> ogra: no exuse so :) hope you had a good christmas
[17:39] <ogra> i did
[17:39]  * ogra has a new housemate :)
[17:39] <ogra> http://www.grawert.net/bodo.jpg
[17:41] <czajkowski> ahh cat!
[17:41] <ayan> awww.
[17:41] <czajkowski> cats freak me out
[17:42] <czajkowski> and also scare me
[18:09]  * DJones offers czajkowski a kebab stick to deal with the cat
[18:10] <czajkowski> another thing that should be not be allowed, Kebabs!
[18:10] <ogra> tell that to the turks
[18:10] <czajkowski> ogra: do you go to FOSDEM ?
[18:10] <ogra> i'm pondering
[18:10] <ogra> depends a bit on the weather
[18:11] <czajkowski> you should it is full of awesome!
[18:11] <DJones> czajkowski: Kebabs are good as long as its not a donner kebab
[18:11] <ogra> i guess i'll decide it spontaneous ... i havent been there since 2006
[18:13] <Nafallo> is it full of kebab?
[18:15] <Pendulum> czajkowski: you don't like kebab?
[18:59] <soren> o/
[19:00]  * barry waves
[19:03] <soren> cjwatson, persia, cody-somerville, bdrung: We have a DMB meeting now, don't we?
[19:03] <bdrung> yes, we have!
[19:04] <cody-somerville> we do? I thought it wasn't for another hour
[19:04] <cody-somerville> and usually its another hour after that :P
[19:04] <soren> cody-somerville: Did it move?
[19:04] <cody-somerville> not that I know of.
[19:04] <cody-somerville> maybe google calendar is just broken crap
[19:04] <bdrung> "date -u" shows Mo 3. Jan 19:04:34 UTC 2011
[19:04] <soren> Then I'm reasonably sure it's now. Reasonably being the operative word.
[19:05] <soren> I don't think the current time is being debated :)
[19:05] <barry> the wiki page says the meeting is at 1900 utc
[19:05] <soren> It's whether that happens to coincide with the time set for this meeting.
[19:05] <soren> Wciked .
[19:05] <soren> Wicked, even.
[19:05]  * soren <--- Now with improved typing.
[19:05] <cody-somerville> hmm... I don't see an event on the fridge calendar for the DMB meeting
[19:05] <cody-somerville> I'm pretty sure there used to be one
[19:05] <barry> :)
[19:06] <soren> Don't believe everything you read.
[19:06] <soren> Or don't read.
[19:08]  * cody-somerville creates new events.
[19:08] <cody-somerville> ugh, and you can't use UTC :(
[19:08] <soren> What do you have to use?
[19:08] <soren> cody-somerville: ^
[19:09]  * cody-somerville is looking up a timezone that he can use that always matches UTC.
[19:09] <soren> Iceland.
[19:09] <soren> Something/Reykjavik
[19:09] <soren> cody-somerville: ^
[19:09] <soren> They have no DST and are at UTC+0.
[19:10] <cody-somerville> cool
[19:11] <soren> I forget what the Something is. Politically, Iceland is European, but it's probably Atlantic/Reykjavik or something.
[19:13] <cody-somerville> wow. what happened to google calendars. Its all hard to use now. I can't see where to make an event repeating and had a hard time finding out how to set the time (its on a separate tab :S)
[19:13] <cody-somerville> oh, there it is
[19:14] <bdrung> where are the others?
[19:15] <cody-somerville> Holiday in the UK
[19:15] <cody-somerville> FYI, I added DMB meeting to Fridge Calendar. It should be the right time from now on. Can everyone check to make sure it shows up right for them?
[19:16] <barry> dang, so likely no quorum?
[19:16]  * geser is here now
[19:17] <soren> That makes four of us.
[19:19] <bdrung> then let's begin.
[19:20] <bdrung> chair?
[19:20] <soren> Sure, go ahead.
[19:20] <soren> Wow, you walked right into that one.
[19:20] <bdrung> i was asking who want to be chair?
[19:22] <soren> I know. I was just jokingly assuming you were volunteering.
[19:22] <bdrung> cody-somerville: maybe you? you should have been the chair for the last meeting.
[19:23] <cody-somerville> ^^ Calendar now understands 'UTC' FYI
[19:23] <cody-somerville> okay
[19:23] <cody-somerville> #startmeeting
[19:23] <MootBot> Meeting started at 13:23. The chair is cody-somerville.
[19:23] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[19:23] <soren> Rock!
[19:24] <cody-somerville> but someone else has to do the write up and update the agenda + minutes on wiki :P
[19:24] <cody-somerville> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
[19:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review of previous action items
[19:24] <cody-somerville> * Colin Watson to find a convenient time for a meeting for Martin Pool's application.
[19:24] <cody-somerville> Colin Watson isn't present, carrying action item
[19:24] <cody-somerville> [TOPIC] Administrative Matters
[19:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Administrative Matters
[19:24] <cody-somerville> * Review Marco Rodrigues participation in Ubuntu Development
[19:25] <bdrung> cody-somerville: the fridge calendar says "The calendar below is in GMT (no daylight savings)."
[19:25] <cody-somerville> I sent out an e-mail while I was on vacation to Marco with details of the consensus we reached at the last DMB meeting.
[19:25] <bdrung> thanks for sending the mail.
[19:26] <cody-somerville> bdrung, I changed the timezone of the calendar to that iceland one soren said. It doesn't have daylights saving so will always be GMT+0 which is UTC
[19:26] <cody-somerville> Anything else to discuss regarding Marco? I haven't got a response back from him.
[19:26] <soren> Waiting on him, them.
[19:26] <soren> then.
[19:26] <cody-somerville> * Review responsibilities and requirements of DMB delegates (CodySomerville)
[19:27] <cody-somerville> I'll write an e-mail up about this and send it to the list. We can discuss at meeting after that.
[19:27]  * stgraber just noticed the meeting. Kind of around if you need me
[19:27] <cody-somerville> [TOPIC] Package Sets
[19:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Package Sets
[19:27] <cody-somerville> No applications this week.
[19:27] <cody-somerville> [TOPIC] PerPackageUploader Applications
[19:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  PerPackageUploader Applications
[19:27] <cody-somerville> * MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
[19:27] <cody-somerville> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
[19:27] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
[19:28] <soren> stgraber: Sorry, forgot to ping you, too :(
[19:28] <cody-somerville> He doesn't appear to be on IRC at the moment.
[19:28] <cody-somerville> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
[19:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications
[19:28] <cody-somerville> No applications this week.
[19:28] <geser> any questions left that didn't get asked on the last meeting?
[19:28] <cody-somerville> [TOPIC] MOTU Applications
[19:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Applications
[19:29] <cody-somerville> * Angel Abad
[19:29] <cody-somerville> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad/MOTUApplication
[19:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad/MOTUApplication
[19:29] <angelabad> Hi, Im here!
[19:29] <cody-somerville> angelabad, Hello. Please introduce yourself and explain why you feel you should be granted MOTU status.
[19:30] <angelabad> Hi, Im Angel Abad from Basque
[19:31] <angelabad> Country (Spain), Im universe contributor, and I work specially
[19:31] <angelabad> in merges and sync, also im debian maintainer and in dd process, I think
[19:31] <angelabad> I have good skills for packaging and I can help a lot in Universe packages
[19:32] <angelabad> you can see my endorsements, I think them are good endrosements.
[19:32] <cody-somerville> angelabad, Have you ever packaged any software from scratch?
[19:32] <angelabad> cody-somerville, not for ubuntu, but yes for Debian
[19:33] <angelabad> you can see my packages http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=angelabad%40gmail.com
[19:33] <angelabad> perl packages are group packages, but others like almanah or dajax are packaged for me from scratch
[19:33] <bdrung> angelabad: you wrote "sometimes poorly tested software is included in Ubuntu distribution". do you have any idea how to improve the quality?
[19:34] <angelabad> bdrung, sincerely no, I think this is the result of unstable sync
[19:35] <cody-somerville> angelabad, Is https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mango-lassi/001+dfsg-3 a sync?
[19:36] <angelabad> cody-somerville, yes
[19:36]  * cody-somerville wishes Launchpad would make that more obvious.
[19:36] <bdrung> angelabad: so we should sync from testing instead?
[19:37] <angelabad> bdrung, I dont know, but a possibility would be to wait some days after sync with unstable, only an idea...
[19:39] <bdrung> angelabad: wait some days? you mean, that a unstable package should only synced if it is x days old?
[19:40] <angelabad> bdrung, yes
[19:40] <bdrung> interesting suggestion
[19:41] <bdrung> angelabad: you could start a discussion on the ubuntu-devel mailing list
[19:42] <angelabad> bdrung, ok!
[19:43] <cody-somerville> angelabad, Are you familiar with the SRU and freeze exception policies?
[19:44] <angelabad> cody-somerville, sincerelly not much, I know I must work more on SRUs, but I promise to work hard on it
[19:45] <maco> angelabad: did you know that for lucid we actually did sync from testing instead of unstable? (sorry to interrupt)
[19:46] <angelabad> maco, no
[19:46] <angelabad> i dont know that
[19:50] <soren> I'm ready to vote.
[19:50] <bdrung> me too
[19:50] <geser> me too
[19:52]  * soren pokes cody-somerville 
[19:53] <cody-somerville> [VOTE] MOTU Application: Angel Abad
[19:53] <MootBot> Please vote on:  MOTU Application: Angel Abad.
[19:53] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[19:53] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[19:53] <bdrung> +1
[19:53] <MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[19:53] <geser> +1
[19:53] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[19:53] <soren> +1
[19:53] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[19:54] <stgraber> +1
[19:54] <MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[19:54] <cody-somerville> +0
[19:54] <MootBot> Abstention received from cody-somerville. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[19:54] <cody-somerville> #endvote
[19:54] <cody-somerville> [ENDVOTE]
[19:54] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
[19:55] <cody-somerville> angelabad, Congratulations.
[19:55] <angelabad> thanks a lot for your votes!
[19:55] <cody-somerville> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
[19:55] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
[19:55] <cody-somerville> * Barry Warsaw
[19:55] <cody-somerville> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication
[19:55] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication
[19:55]  * barry waves
[19:56] <cody-somerville> barry, Hello Barry. Please take a moment to introduce yourself and why you feel you should be granted Core Developer status.
[19:57] <barry> i'm barry warsaw, and i have been on the platform foundations team @ canonical for (iirc) over a year now.  i have been a python core dev for 15+ years, been doing s/w development for maybe 30.  working on becoming a dd.  i am intimately involved in the python 2.7 transition for natty.
[19:58]  * geser points also at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/12/20/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:00 for some questioning of barry (and poolie) at the last (informal) meeting
[19:59] <barry> having core dev status would greatly help natty dev as it would reduce the lag for fixing 2.7 transition issues (there is no python package set, and i understand will not be because of complexity).  i think i have a pretty good grasp of packaging, and am not afraid to ask questions
[19:59] <barry> geser: thanks, yes we had a long discussion at the last meeting before the new year
[19:59] <barry> i've done a few packages from scratch and have fixed a bunch of existing packages
[20:01] <bdrung> barry: what's the current status of becoming DD?
[20:02] <barry> bdrung: it's going slowly because i'm concentrating on ubuntu, and it takes longer to get turnaround on sponsored packages in debian.  but it's progressing and i intend to make another push at it after the platform rally
[20:02] <barry> i've got my own packages and am adopting more to help out with.  i'm pretty active in debian-python
[20:02] <cody-somerville> Do you do any work outside of Python in Ubuntu or Debian?
[20:04] <barry> cody-somerville: atm no, but that's still includes a wide range of technology (e.g. because of embedding, c and c++ is included).  the 2.7 transition is consuming my time this cycle, but i'm certainly comfortable in c, c++, java at the very least.  i'm a good software breaker and fixer :)
[20:04] <barry> i've got a firm grasp of autotools too
[20:05] <cody-somerville> barry, Have you ever completed the freeze exception process, SRU process, or security update process in Ubuntu?
[20:06] <barry> cody-somerville: i have not had occasion to yet.  i've read the docs, but until you actually do it...  i vaguely remember assisting others with a few such requests
[20:08] <cody-somerville> Does anyone else have any questions for barry?
[20:09] <cody-somerville> [VOTE] Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Barry Warsaw
[20:09] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Barry Warsaw.
[20:09] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[20:09] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[20:10] <cody-somerville> -0 Although a smart guy who I'm sure will be a core developer some day, unfortunately currently does not meet criteria for Core Dev.
[20:11] <cody-somerville> err
[20:11] <cody-somerville> -1 Although a smart guy who I'm sure will be a core developer some day, unfortunately currently does not meet criteria for Core Dev.
[20:11] <MootBot> -1 received from cody-somerville. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
[20:12] <geser> +1
[20:12] <MootBot> +1 received from geser. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:16] <bdrung> +0
[20:16] <MootBot> Abstention received from bdrung. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
[20:19] <geser> soren, stgraber: ?
[20:19] <soren> +1
[20:19] <MootBot> +1 received from soren. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[20:19] <soren> Sorry, phased out for a bit there.
[20:20] <cody-somerville> [ENDVOTE]
[20:20] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1
[20:20] <soren> geser: Thanks for the nudge.
[20:20] <cody-somerville> barry, Unfortunately your application for Core Developer status has been denied for the time being.
[20:21] <barry> cody-somerville, bdrung can you describe what you would like to see from me for you to be able to comfortably give me a +1?  i will be back :)
[20:21] <cody-somerville> barry, I recommend being move involved with the Ubuntu development processes before applying again. I also want to see solid endorsements on your application and preferably no negative ones.
[20:22] <cody-somerville> barry, I also recommend branching out from just python stuff.
[20:22] <cody-somerville> barry, That is critical. You need to be a generalist to be a core developer.
[20:23] <cody-somerville> barry, If you were applying for upload permissions to just python stuff, I would have gave +1 - something you might also consider instead of core developer in the near future.
[20:23] <barry> cody-somerville: okay, i understand you want proof of that.  i am a generalist who is consumed in one area right now.
[20:23] <barry> unfortunately there is no way that i know of to ask for upload permissions to just python stuff :(
[20:24] <cody-somerville> barry, Request the creation of a python package set
[20:25] <ScottK> cody-somerville: IIRC cjwatson has already said he's unwilling to administer such a package set.
[20:25] <geser> won't happen
[20:25] <maco> cody-somerville: that was mentioned last time and i think cjwatson said it was unfeasible
[20:25] <barry> cody-somerville: i did that on ubuntu-devel a few months ago and received silence.  also, at the last meeting cjwatson effectively shot that down as being too complicate (probably rightly so)
[20:25] <cody-somerville> *python toolchain package set
[20:25] <tumbleweed> barry: would MOTU + PPU help in the mean-time? Or are you touching too many main packages?
[20:26] <barry> tumbleweed: i am touching many main packages ;)
[20:26] <barry> i have ppu to a few but it seems infeasible to ask for ppu on everything i'm going to touch
[20:26]  * micahg thinks python toolchain packageset sounds like a good idea, but isn't sure how many packages that is or if it helps
[20:27] <cody-somerville> Anyhow, lets wrap up.
[20:27] <cody-somerville> [topic] Select a chair for the next meeting
[20:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
[20:28] <cody-somerville> no volunteers? Okay.
[20:28] <cody-somerville> #endmeeting
[20:28] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:28.
[20:28] <cody-somerville> geser, Would you be kind enough to take care of the meeting minutes for me? :)
[20:28] <barry> thank you guys
[20:29] <geser> cody-somerville: sure, can do
[20:29] <soren> There's plenty of prior art to granting people with narrow focus core-dev privs.
[20:30] <maco> Riddell tells me that when he got core dev privs, he was told to try to stick to packages that start with K
[20:30] <geser> and see also cjwatson mail to the dmb mailing list about being us to "conservative"
[20:30] <cody-somerville> subject?
[20:30] <geser> maco: luckily the the kernel starts with "l" :)
[20:30]  * bdrung was interrupted by an phone call.
[20:31] <micahg> well, there are guidelines on teh wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#Ubuntu%20Core%20Developers
[20:31] <geser> cody-somerville: don't remember and don't have access to my mailbox right now, but it was short after the last meeting (Dec 20th)
[20:31] <cody-somerville> micahg, indeed
[20:32] <barry> micahg: yes, but those guidelines aren't terribly specific
[20:32] <cody-somerville> barry will be core dev someday and he will most likely continue to have a narrow focus on python stuff
[20:32] <barry> given my job description, yes ;)
[20:33] <micahg> barry: well, they're general, but give a good idea of what is needed for a core-dev, do you believe that you meet those guidelines at the moment?
[20:33] <micahg> cody-somerville: I definitely agree
[20:33] <micahg> err, maybe not entirely :-/
[20:34] <cody-somerville> micahg, hmm?
[20:34] <micahg> cody-somerville: err, ignore that
[20:34] <barry> micahg: well, "have a history of substantial direct contributions to the distribution" is probably one ding that i could reasonably have, though it's not a guideline that provides clear goals on what that history should be.  i.e. 50 packages?  100?  one year?  two years?  see what i mean?
[20:35] <bdrung> barry: from the wiki: "have a strong working knowledge of Ubuntu project procedures" - having done a SRU or security fix.
[20:35] <micahg> * are able to apply this knowledge to a variety of packages and subsystems
[20:35] <bdrung> barry: ^
[20:35] <barry> bdrung: okay, fair enough, though i would submit that the guideline should say exactly that
[20:35] <micahg> barry: yeah, that is subjective, but I think once the other pieces are met, that falls into place
[20:36] <bdrung> barry: i like to see more packages here: http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=barry@python.org&comaint=yes
[20:37] <bdrung> barry: i like to see more/stronger endorsements. compare https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AngelAbad/MOTUApplication with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarryWarsaw/MyApplication
[20:37] <barry> bdrung: respectfully, i think that's a bit unfair.  while i am committed to helping out more with debian, i don't think it should be a *requirement* for core ubuntu dev
[20:38] <barry> bdrung: yes, i need to be more aggressive in twisting the arms of folks i've worked with :)
[20:38] <bdrung> barry: debian work is not a requirement for a core dev, but shows the packaging skills.
[20:40] <barry> bdrung: yep.  please also understand i have no hard feelings, and i am happy to go through the process correctly.  i hope you understand that my being critical of the process (or perhaps the written embodiment of it) is a negative reaction to missing out this time!
[20:41] <barry> i want to understand exactly what is required so that it will be easier for the next folks to go through it
[20:42] <barry> er, *is not* a negative reaction!
[20:43] <maco> heh this reminds me of when i became a motu. "have you done a merge?" "yes, a half hour ago" "why a half hour ago?" "i figured itd be a definite no if i had to answer no to that question"
[20:43] <cody-somerville> lmao
[20:44]  * micahg wonders if new packageset maintenance tools would help
[20:46] <barry> anything we can do to allow people to become more involved would be a good thing
[20:49] <bdrung> barry: look at the picture at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers?action=recall&rev=57
[20:50] <bdrung> barry: the way was to become a contributor, a motu, and then a core-dev
[20:51] <maco> except those dotted lines... i mean, most people skip the yellow box
[20:51] <barry> bdrung: interesting.  why was that diagram removed?
[20:52] <maco> im guessing because packagesets make it so much more fine-grained than that image shows now
[20:52] <bdrung> barry: dunno.
[20:52] <barry> it also doesn't address ppu as a step in the process
[20:52] <bdrung> but having one step between becoming core-dev would be nice.
[20:52] <maco> could be in the ubuntu-desktop packageset without being a motu, for instance
[20:54] <barry> that might be a good next step before coming back to request core
[20:58] <bdrung> barry: two things made me hesitate: 1) experience (26 uploads). for example, i had 100 uploads when i became core-dev (gone through contributor -> motu -> core-dev). 2) broad knowledge (e.g. SRUs)
[20:59] <bdrung> and your debian qa page didn't support point one.
[21:01] <barry> bdrung: i think that's fair enough, and i do appreciate the feedback.  i have confidence my upload number will look more appealing by the end of natty and i'll attempt to get direct sru experience.  i'll also concentrate more on the debian side of things, though i do think i understand packaging fairly well
[21:01] <bdrung> as core-dev you should gave gone through an complete release cycle.
[21:02] <maco> he has, hasnt he? given his time at cnaonical...
[21:02] <ari-tczew> barry: compare Bhavi, which joined MOTU with 1000+ uploads done and you with 26 uploads to core-dev :)
[21:03] <bdrung> ari-tczew: Bhavi won't set the lower limit for uploads ;)
[21:03] <barry> maco: yes.  i went on rotation with foundations at maverick
[21:04] <bdrung> barry: experience is more than just understanding packaging.
[21:05] <tumbleweed> of course there's also a difference between inexperienced developers with only distro experience, and experienced developers gettingo into distro work
[21:06] <bdrung> barry: i suggest to reapply for core-dev after the natty cycle.
[21:06] <barry> ari-tczew: true, but it should not be just a numbers game i hope!  my concern is that ubuntu development is too bureaucratic and will discourage people who could be great contributors.  i'm not worried about myself, since i'm a stubborn bastard and will be back again, but ime, it doesn't take much to discourage many good folks from participating.
[21:06] <bdrung> tumbleweed: good point.
[21:06] <barry> bdrung, tumbleweed true
[21:06] <barry> bdrung: thanks, i will
[21:07] <bdrung> barry: re bureaucratic, does this apply only to the dmb or are there other things that are too bureaucratic too?
[21:07] <ari-tczew> barry: conclusion from all feedbacks here: you should got PPU for all python-related packages
[21:08] <bdrung> ari-tczew: that wont happen (too much work to maintain that package set)
[21:11] <barry> bdrung: irc is probably not the best forum to explore that in depth, but in general, it's very valuable to take a critical eye on all processes and steps.  this is something we were very good at on the launchpad project and it helped eliminate waste and discouragement.
[21:13] <barry> bdrung: i'd love to chat with you about it at a future uds :)
[21:13] <bdrung> barry: yes. the ubuntu devel mailing list would be a better place for discussing it.
[21:14] <bdrung> barry: i would love to go to an uds, but the last times i wasn't sponsored by canonical.
[21:14] <barry> bdrung: +1.  it's one of the reasons why i don't at all mind going through the process.  you have to live through it to understand it, but you also have to keep a newbie's mind to empathize with what people go through
[21:15] <cody-somerville> Well, I certainly hope we don't feel 'newbies' should be applying for core-dev ;-)
[21:15] <barry> bdrung: ah.  when uds-o comes around, please do ping me if you would like to apply for sponsorship
[21:16] <barry> cody-somerville: no, but there should be a very clear path to obtaining it, and that is something that i feel is lacking right now
[21:16] <barry> there's a path, but there's overgrowth and some of the blazes are missing :)
[21:18]  * bdrung agrees that the criteria for becoming core-dev/motu/... is not defined precisely. it leaves room for interpretation and different dmb member make different judgements.
[21:18] <cody-somerville> I think that we need to continue to work on the archive reorg stuff. We shouldn't be giving people core-dev because its convenient permission wise.
[21:18] <bdrung> barry: thanks. i am taking down a note to ping you.
[21:19] <micahg> cody-somerville: I definitely agree with that :)
[21:20] <barry> cody-somerville: yes, definitely
[21:21] <cody-somerville> core-dev is one of the highest echelons in our development community. Its not just about being trusted to upload any package in the archive, its a position of leadership and responsibility.
[21:27] <barry> cody-somerville: that's a valuable distinction that isn't really clear from reading the available wiki docs.  in that sense, perhaps "core-dev" conflates two concepts that should really be separated.  packagesets and ppu attempt to address that, but perhaps don't go far enough
[21:28] <cody-somerville> agreed
[21:29] <geser> does somebody know if ArchiveReorg is fully completed yet?
[21:33] <barry> geser: i do not
[21:34] <micahg> geser: I think the goal is by 12.04
[21:34] <micahg> actually maybe not even by then