/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/01/04/#ubuntu-community-team.txt

doctormoIf I tried to run 10km, I think I'd die before I got to 5km. I could probably walk 100km though.00:00
nisshhheh00:00
nisshhrunning is easier if you know how to do it properly (breathing right, taking the right length strides, etc)00:01
doctormoAh, it's a skill no one taught me ;-)00:01
nisshhand people seem to think that once you get puffed out, you should stop00:01
nisshhbut the wall exists00:02
nisshhdoctormo, yeah, i picked it up when i was young because of all the long distance running i did00:02
nisshhthe key is to get to the point where you fall into a rythm, everything becomes easier then and you will find you can run for ages like that00:03
doctormoThe human animal is good at three things: running, swimming and thinking. amazing creatures.00:04
nisshhhehe00:04
jcastrojono: still there?01:47
nigelbMorning all.02:31
kim0'elo07:53
dpmgood morning everyone08:18
dpmhey kim008:18
kim0dpm: Morning mate08:18
nigelbhey kim0, dpm :)08:24
kim0nigelb: Morning man :)08:24
dpmmorning nigelb!08:34
nigelbNetsplits are back.  Yay.08:46
kim0\o/08:48
huatsmorning10:16
kim0hey10:22
dakero/10:29
dakerhi popey15:23
popeyhi15:24
dakerjust i want to say that the link is not correct => https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA15:26
popeyin what way not correct?15:26
popeyoops15:27
dakerpopey, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=4&month=11&year=2011&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=015:27
popeyI see, fixed15:27
kim0daker: when are you applying :)15:27
dakerkim0, i think it's today15:27
popeydaker: thank you!15:27
kim0daker: what hour is it15:28
dakerkim0, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=4&month=01&year=2011&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0|January15:29
kim020UTC I see15:29
kim0daker: best of luck man :)15:29
dakerkim0, thanks ツ yay15:29
jcastropopey: there you are16:01
jcastroI have something to show you16:02
popeyya16:02
* popey goes a bit furtive16:02
jcastrohttps://dl.dropbox.com/u/5720/unity-awesome-for-cli.png16:02
jcastroI discovered this last night16:02
jcastrocompare to a full screen terminal you have in stock ubuntu16:02
jcastroyou'd have another panel, AND a window decorator thing16:02
popeyhah16:02
popeyhmm, not quite16:03
popeywhat happens if you press f11?16:03
jcastrotrue16:03
jcastrobut this is just maximizing an app16:03
popeyhmmm16:04
jcastrobasically, it's like free fullscreen with every app when you maximize16:04
popeyyou have a point16:04
popeyi wiped unity off my laptop, it was too painful to use :(16:04
popeyI'll reinstall later16:04
jcastrolike, if you do gedit like this (it's doubling up the widgets right now otherwise I'd show you) it's like instant writeroom16:04
jcastropopey: 10.10?16:04
popeyI have gone back to 10.1016:04
popeyfrom 11.0416:04
jcastrooh? dang, it's been pretty good for me16:05
jcastrowell, other than the huge breakage before xmas16:05
* jcastro whistles16:05
popey:)16:06
kim0I guess I'll give it a try with natty next week16:06
jcastropopey: ok so basically I just wanted to say that maximize is now becoming fullscreen16:07
popeysweet16:07
jcastropopey: and the fusing of the top bits into one bar is pretty awesome16:07
jcastroI was not convinced at first16:07
popeyI am convinced that the top only bar is a good thing, and I like the panel on the left16:08
popeyI am totally bought into the whole thing16:08
popeyit's just way to unstable for me right now16:09
jcastrothere are days ... heh.16:09
jcastroyesterday I used jill's LTS desktop and was like "man, so this is what it's like to have a working computer"16:10
popey:)16:12
jonomorning peeps :-)16:12
jcastropopey: I am blogging it16:13
jcastroit's awesome.16:13
popeyshow more screenshots of apps full screen16:13
jcastrojono will appreciate it more than you, I was expecting you to get all excited16:13
popeychrome, banshee etc :)16:13
popeyI am jaded16:13
jcastroyeah the problem is that it's hosed with with some apps16:13
jonojcastro, appreciate what?16:13
jcastrohttps://dl.dropbox.com/u/5720/unity-awesome-for-cli.png16:13
jcastromaximize something in unity16:13
jcastroit gets all fused into the top thing, it's awesome16:14
* AlanBell updates the natty VM for some of this maximising crack16:14
czajkowskihttp://twitpic.com/3mxlvq/full  Chris Kingle pressie for on my desk this morning :D16:14
czajkowskisee the logo16:14
jonojcastro, ahhh yeah16:14
czajkowskipleia2: do the CC meet tonight?16:15
paultagMorning :)16:18
czajkowskisee twas paultag fault16:19
jcastrohttp://castrojo.tumblr.com/post//maximize-is-the-new-fullscreen16:24
jcastropopey: jono: ^16:24
sensejono: I'm currently working on a governance structure for Ubuntu NL and in the reorganised structure we will have a Community Council consisting of six members plus the Ubuntu NL Leader, and all seven people are elected by the community. However, we have troubles to determine how to determine who has the right to vote and the right of candidature.16:27
sensejono: Do you have good examples for a selective body that can work to select people?16:27
senseWe've looked into using Ubuntu Membership as a criteria, but found it too limiting, also due to its English nature.16:27
kim0would such a maximize=full-screen behaviour block notifications16:28
czajkowskisense: do ye really need a council?16:28
* AlanBell isn't getting the fullscreen crackness :(16:28
AlanBellstill got the unity bar at the side16:29
jcastroAlanBell: you need to turn on autohide in ccsm16:29
jcastroAlanBell: it will be turned on by default soon16:29
AlanBelloh16:29
popeyjcastro: link to tweet?16:29
AlanBelloh is ccsm not going to be an instacrash option now?16:30
senseczajkowski: That council is the governing body, and we need it. Our activities make us seem smaller than we really are.16:30
jcastrohttp://castrojo.tumblr.com/16:30
jcastroAlanBell: only click that box, anything out of the unity plugin is real sensitive right now16:30
jcastrosorry, I mean http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/2596623534/maximize-is-the-new-fullscreen16:30
jonojcastro, cool :-)16:30
jcastrook from now on when I find something cool in unity I am going to blog it16:30
jonosense, do you really need a council for a LoCo team?16:30
jcastroand the haters will just have to deal16:31
jonoit sounds like overkill to me16:31
jonojcastro, good man16:31
sensejono: We need a way to govern the community with legality/authority, and it would fit into the plans we have for a foundation.16:31
senseIt has grown too large for informal organisation.16:31
jonosense, ok16:32
czajkowskisense: I really think a council is not a good idea sorry, I've seen it lead to nothing but trouble16:32
jonosense, I agree with czajkowski - I think councils are overkill and there are better ways to do it16:32
jcastroAlanBell: I've clarified the entry and added a link to ccsm instructions16:32
sensejono: What would be a better way?16:33
senseDedicated people?16:33
jonosense, well why are you struggling with size?16:33
jcastrogreg-g: sometimes I am glad we just do two events and drink beer. :)16:34
jonosense, councils typically don't serve scale better than a single or two leaders, as council's typically require quorum to make decisions16:34
jonocouncils mainly provide objectivity16:34
jonobut I think they are too heavy for LoCo teams16:34
jonothey are fine for large multi-sub-team communities (e.g. Ubuntu Community Council), but my hunch is that they are a bit heavy for LoCo teams16:35
senseThe daily leadership is not in the hands of the council, but in appointed leaders. The council is for long-term discussions. The community, being Dutch, would never accept one or two leaders without something like a council.16:35
jonoand also, pretty much every LoCo I have seen with a council gets wrapped up in bureaucracy16:35
senseThat is indeed a danger we need to watch out for.16:35
jonosense, why don't dutch people like that?16:36
jcastroit's the land of The Hague!16:36
czajkowskiheh16:36
sensejono: Because we believe we are all just as good as the other person, who just happens to have become the leader. If we wouldn't have had something better to do, we could have done the same.16:36
senseEveryone at least wants to have the feeling he or she is or can be heard.16:37
jonosense, that seems naive to me16:37
jononot everyone is a good leader16:37
jonothere are many good people who are not good leaders16:37
jonosense, is this a cultural thing?16:37
senseWe never had really strong leaders here, the people didn't allow leaders to have a strong character.16:37
AlanBellsense: would "focus groups" be a better term for long term discussions on particular topics?16:38
greg-gjcastro: :)16:38
jonosense, interesting, I never knew that16:38
senseAlanBell: We had that, but that didn't work out too well, because we had no rules for membership, and because a lot of people lost interest along the way.16:39
AlanBellpeople losing interest is a bigger problem if they are on a decision making body16:39
jonosense, the problem is that given the culture that you say in .nl, a council is likely to be riddled with bureaucracy16:39
jonoI don't think I have ever correctly spelled "bureaucracy" without a spell-checker16:40
czajkowskiI've seen teams have private membership which I_really_hate_to_see!16:40
senseWe had private membership before.16:40
jcastroreally?16:40
senseWhich caused great unrest in the community, and vile and spite.16:40
jonoprivate membership for what?16:40
jcastroWhy would teams do private membership?16:40
senseAll discussions took place in private, so the community's interest in the LoCo itself dwindled and mistrust grew rapidly.16:41
jcastroof course, a cabal is a death sentence16:41
senseBecause people were afraid of the reactions if discussions would be held in the open.16:41
czajkowskijcastro: in some places, it's so they can meet the people first before they join, in other areas I've yet to get a straight answer. it's dying out, but very slowly16:41
jonosense, private discussions are unacceptable16:41
jonosense, well I recommend you continue to work with the LoCo Council and accept their recommendations16:41
popeyuhm16:42
sensejono: That's what I said when I came in, and we have changed that now, but now the lack of any structure shows itself.16:42
czajkowskiturkey and Israel used to have their meetings on a private thread in their forums which lead to a lott of trouble down the road, and again had private council/managers16:42
popeyprivate discussions are totally acceptable16:42
jonosense, I know it is culturally unfamiliar, but I would recommend doing with the California team did and select two or three leaders16:42
jonopreferably two16:42
* popey points to the Community Council16:42
jonosense, I think you would make an excellent leaders16:42
czajkowskipopey: council V locoteam...16:42
czajkowskipopey: even the LC has private discussions.16:42
popeyexactly16:42
sensejono: Thank you, I appreciate that. :)16:43
popeyI don't think a blanket phrase "private discussions are unacceptable" is accurate. It's more subtle than that, is all I'm saying.16:43
czajkowskipopey: are the CC meeting tonight as we've a long list of EMEA stuff16:43
popeyI have no idea16:43
czajkowskipopey: I think it's in reference to locoteams tbh..16:43
senseWe don't plan to have all discussions out in the open, we just changed the rule from 'always private' to 'public, unless...'.16:43
jcastropopey: "we should default to public" :)16:43
jonopopey, I mean't in the context of NL LoCo16:43
popeyYes, I know.16:43
senseczajkowski: How is the Irish team organised?16:44
jonosense, well it sounds like you are doing an excelent job16:44
czajkowskijcastro: indeed, except when it comes to Ubuntu councils, like the CC and LC we have stuff going on there that is definately private and sensative.16:44
jcastroczajkowski: sure sure, I agree16:44
jonoand sense, if I was in the NL team I would immediately +1 as a leader16:44
popeybah16:44
czajkowskisense: ebel runs it as a point of contact, we have no team leader we share tasks out to people16:44
popeyany team can have private discussions!16:44
popeyprivate discussions are not veboten16:44
jonopopey, I think you are getting wrapped up in one detail16:44
popeyok16:45
jonoof course private discussions happen, we are talking about the general culture of a team16:45
* popey shuts up16:45
czajkowskisense: he refuses to be called a team leader.16:45
jono:-)16:45
jcastropopey: right, but in the scope of a loco you don't want "the public list" and then "the secret private list where the REAL people hang out."16:45
czajkowskisense: we have someone who admins the wiki, website and adds content to the LD and eveyrone just pitches in.16:45
sensejono: I'm doing my best to help with leading the team, that's all. It's rewarding to see that since the community opened up more people have started to enthusiastically contribute to the LoCo.16:45
senseczajkowski: So IE is an example of a very informal LoCo?16:45
jonosense, you have proven yourself to be an excellent and masture contributor16:45
jonomature16:45
jonoI think your work in conjunction with the LoCo Council will be great16:46
jonoand let me know if I can help16:46
czajkowskisense: we'll we have a monthly meeting which is chaired, and have 3 Ubuntu hours a month, plus Quiz, and Geeknicks, we're very active, but we just don't have a leader as such, but we're approved 2 years this July hopefully.16:46
sensejono: I sure will, thank you!16:46
jonosense, :-)16:46
senseczajkowski: I wished we would come together more often, it really helps to raise the spirit.16:47
czajkowskisense: you're mpore than welcome to skype me some evening if you want to chat16:47
czajkowskiI'm free all evenings this week bar thursday and possibly this evening16:47
czajkowskior some evneing next week or over the weekend lauraczajkowski on skype16:47
* AlanBell spots a private discussion16:48
czajkowskiI'll happily talk to the wall :)16:48
czajkowskiAlanBell: shrup ya pup!16:48
* AlanBell shuts up16:48
senseAlanBell: private government matters! Do not WikiLeak!16:48
senseczajkowski: Thank you for the offer, I'll consider a bit more first and then I'll see what I can ask you!16:51
jcastrojames_w: how do I get fully verbose logs in bzr log. Is --include-merges enough?16:51
jcastrojames_w: I don't want to miss a single commit in any branch ever merged16:51
jcastroAlanBell: autohide is now on by default in trunk btw.16:52
* popey hides jcastro 16:52
popeyhmm, need a bigger screen16:52
AlanBelljcastro: any idea when the other options in ccsm are going to be safe to tinker with?16:52
jcastroAlanBell: there's some deep breakage at the moment. Next week is the platform sprint so I say 2 weeks?16:53
jcastroit's also the same thing causing battery life to be horrible afaict16:53
AlanBellgreat, I want to do some testing with the colorblindness filter on16:54
jcastroAlanBell: I have found that enabling it crashes the whole thing, then I restart and whatever I checked last works16:55
jcastroit's not ideal at all, heh16:55
AlanBellit wouldn't stay on for me, worked in classic gnome, but then forgets the settings in Unity16:55
czajkowskisense: no problem any time16:56
* popey tickles everyone and goes home17:02
czajkowskicheeky17:02
pleia2just a heads up everyone - lp polls are coming back17:07
pleia2czajkowski: yes, cc meeting this afternoon17:07
czajkowskipleia2: is it definately going to take place, as EMEA has a massive list again this month :s last time we finished on time for a CC meeting that never took place.17:08
pleia2I don't know, we at least have to show up and see if any community members have anything to bring up with us17:08
pleia2even if we don't have quorum we need to give the community that opportunity, even if it means we take it to the list17:09
pleia2sorry :\17:09
* AlanBell suggests an EMEA meeting with an interval17:10
czajkowskipleia2: tis fine it's just getting a tad frustrating for us to finish and we get it in the neck for not getting through the large list for meeting that doesnt happen. Any way the CC would consider moving :)17:10
pleia2the CC meeting has been at that time slot for years, Mark doesn't want to change it17:10
czajkowskihttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA17:10
czajkowskipleia2: aye but he also doesn't turn up...17:10
czajkowskinot your fault just getting a tad annoying17:11
pleia2it's not about him being there, it's about the established time that Has Always Been17:11
czajkowskifair enough.17:11
AlanBellwhere did Kate Smith go?17:11
AlanBells/Smith/Stewart/17:12
pleia2but I tend to agree with AlanBell, if your meeting goes over just take a break for 20 minutes to see if anything comes up with the CC17:12
pleia2if not you can resume17:12
czajkowskiAlanBell: she wasn't on the EMEA board meeting, she was on the USA one17:12
czajkowskipleia2: bit messy, but maybe17:13
AlanBellah ok17:13
pleia2czajkowski: honestly if the emea board keeps bumping into other meetings it should be the one to move :(17:13
czajkowskipleia2: this is the latest and earliest it can start for the members... any later and it's too late and tuesday is not a good time for anyone with other meetings in the month17:13
czajkowskiit's a catch 22 tbh17:13
* AlanBell is reminded of http://www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp17:13
pleia2no other days of the week work?17:14
czajkowskiTues-thursday is one of the busiest times on the Ubuntu cal looking at it17:14
pleia2it is a bit unfortunate that asias and emea are on the same day each month17:15
pleia2if you're not available that day you have to go to americas, or wait another month17:15
czajkowskido many EU folks go to Americas ?17:16
pleia2not many, I don't think people know it's an option (I told one person it was last meeting when emea had to stop)17:17
czajkowskiTuesday and Wednesdays are nightmare days for me in the evenings and now Thursday is turning into being one also, between conference meetings and Salsa dancing17:18
czajkowskithere is never an optium day for everyone I do fully see that.17:18
pleia2this isn't the place to sort out your schedule with other members anyway, I understand that scheduling is hard, insisting that the CC move it's long-standing meeting just isn't the way to fix this17:18
pleia2americas used to decide a meeting time each month based on schedules, it was nice when we could all finally commit to a day but certainly isn't required17:19
czajkowskipleia2: oh I wasn't trying to sort out anything here, it started off asking was the CC meeting that's all. :)17:20
* pleia2 nods17:20
pleia2if it's on the schedule those of us around will show up :)17:21
czajkowskinods17:21
pleia2and we are working on making the meetings more useful, our problem lately has been no agenda, so it's been kinda a "community can comment" thing - but I don't think most of the community knows it's a community can comment thing17:21
czajkowskipleia2: nods17:21
czajkowskitis grand really17:21
czajkowskijust wondered that's all17:21
czajkowskishall go to gym after EMEA17:22
dpmok everyone, calling it a day. See you all tomorrow!17:46
dpmpleia2, great work with UWN btw!17:47
dpmand nhandler too17:47
pleia2dpm: thanks :)17:47
dpmbye!17:48
Picipleia2: Do you have a moment for a pm?17:48
pleia2Pici: sure17:48
Technoviking'allo all17:58
PiciHowdy17:58
jcastrohahaha man18:21
jcastrojono: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10316179&postcount=7818:21
jcastroTHEY KNOW ME18:22
jonojcastro, nice!18:22
jcastroI am as predictable as ... <fill in the blank>18:22
jcastroit's queued up to automatically post, I'm going to let the current unity one sit on top o' planet for a little longer18:22
jcastroin before the doctormo tentacles!18:23
* doctormo knows they're everywhere18:25
jonolol18:25
doctormojono: How is your second day back?18:29
jonodoctormo, good thanks :-)18:29
jonohows things there?18:30
doctormojono: Practicing the keyboard, all good otherwise. Got a bit of writers block over the progress indicator.18:30
jonodoctormo, gotcha18:31
jcastroI suppose now would be a good time to get lunch18:39
jcastro<--- on a taco run18:39
jonojcastro, do it18:50
doctormojono: What are you working on?18:51
jonodoctormo, just responding to email18:52
doctormoHeh, more email.18:52
jonodoctormo, you?18:52
doctormoWriting python code.18:53
jonocool :)18:53
jcastrook I was held up18:58
jcastroNOW I am going for tecos18:58
jcastrotacos even18:58
jcastroman, what a day18:58
TechnovikingUnity stop making me sad19:30
jcastroI will be happy when this week's upload smoothes out stuff19:37
jcastroTechnoviking: every once in a while I do a "unity --reset"19:39
jcastrowhen things go south19:39
Technovikingjcastro: thank will try that19:46
Technovikingmuch better, thank you sir19:49
jcastrohmm, dholbach is apparently online somewhere triaging community bugs20:11
nigelbjcastro: and uploading photos20:15
nigelband facebooking20:15
dakerkim0, you there ?20:28
kim0daker: yeah20:28
kim0daker: r u on now20:29
dakernot yet ツ maybe in 30min or less20:29
pleia2Technoviking, popey, thoughts on CC meeting in 22 minutes? nothing on the agenda again, I figure we just show up and see if anyone has anything, if not we let EMEA get back to their meeting20:38
popeysure20:38
popeyI'm easy given I'm sat here already20:38
pleia2:)20:39
czajkowskipopey: shouldn't tell folks how easy you are! :p20:41
popeyi have a laptop, telly and wine20:41
czajkowskijust in thedoor housemate collected me as train ran late20:42
pleia2hey, I deserve some easy! it's been a rough few weeks :)20:42
dakerkim0, now20:42
czajkowskipleia2: *HUGS*20:44
pleia2hugs!20:45
pleia2:)20:45
czajkowskithat or a bagel and peanutbutter and mug of tea20:49
czajkowskitake your pic20:49
popeypleia2: nice work on UWN this month!20:56
popeys/this/last20:56
czajkowskioh we may actually finish on time,...20:59
pleia2thanks :)20:59
popeytick tock tick tock20:59
czajkowski and in the nick of time battery about to die21:01
czajkowskiclearly not my smartest move, told the motership I was going to spain, she's now cancled her english trip and coming with me to spain. so much for peace and quiet21:03
popeyhahaha21:05
* czajkowski steals popey bottle of wine 21:06
JFooooh, that reminds me that I have wine. :-)21:08
* JFo goes to pop open a bottle21:08
* czajkowski steals JFo wine 21:08
jcastroDan, get your knife21:39
* popey hugs pleia2 21:49
* pleia2 hugs popey 21:49
=== JanC_ is now known as JanC

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