[00:00] <doctormo> If I tried to run 10km, I think I'd die before I got to 5km. I could probably walk 100km though.
[00:00] <nisshh> heh
[00:01] <nisshh> running is easier if you know how to do it properly (breathing right, taking the right length strides, etc)
[00:01] <doctormo> Ah, it's a skill no one taught me ;-)
[00:01] <nisshh> and people seem to think that once you get puffed out, you should stop
[00:02] <nisshh> but the wall exists
[00:02] <nisshh> doctormo, yeah, i picked it up when i was young because of all the long distance running i did
[00:03] <nisshh> the key is to get to the point where you fall into a rythm, everything becomes easier then and you will find you can run for ages like that
[00:04] <doctormo> The human animal is good at three things: running, swimming and thinking. amazing creatures.
[00:04] <nisshh> hehe
[01:47] <jcastro> jono: still there?
[02:31] <nigelb> Morning all.
[07:53] <kim0> 'elo
[08:18] <dpm> good morning everyone
[08:18] <dpm> hey kim0
[08:18] <kim0> dpm: Morning mate
[08:24] <nigelb> hey kim0, dpm :)
[08:24] <kim0> nigelb: Morning man :)
[08:34] <dpm> morning nigelb!
[08:46] <nigelb> Netsplits are back.  Yay.
[08:48] <kim0> \o/
[10:16] <huats> morning
[10:22] <kim0> hey
[10:29] <daker> o/
[15:23] <daker> hi popey
[15:24] <popey> hi
[15:26] <daker> just i want to say that the link is not correct => https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[15:26] <popey> in what way not correct?
[15:27] <popey> oops
[15:27] <daker> popey, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=4&month=11&year=2011&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
[15:27] <popey> I see, fixed
[15:27] <kim0> daker: when are you applying :)
[15:27] <daker> kim0, i think it's today
[15:27] <popey> daker: thank you!
[15:28] <kim0> daker: what hour is it
[15:29] <daker> kim0, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=4&month=01&year=2011&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0|January
[15:29] <kim0> 20UTC I see
[15:29] <kim0> daker: best of luck man :)
[15:29] <daker> kim0, thanks ツ yay
[16:01] <jcastro> popey: there you are
[16:02] <jcastro> I have something to show you
[16:02] <popey> ya
[16:02]  * popey goes a bit furtive
[16:02] <jcastro> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5720/unity-awesome-for-cli.png
[16:02] <jcastro> I discovered this last night
[16:02] <jcastro> compare to a full screen terminal you have in stock ubuntu
[16:02] <jcastro> you'd have another panel, AND a window decorator thing
[16:02] <popey> hah
[16:03] <popey> hmm, not quite
[16:03] <popey> what happens if you press f11?
[16:03] <jcastro> true
[16:03] <jcastro> but this is just maximizing an app
[16:04] <popey> hmmm
[16:04] <jcastro> basically, it's like free fullscreen with every app when you maximize
[16:04] <popey> you have a point
[16:04] <popey> i wiped unity off my laptop, it was too painful to use :(
[16:04] <popey> I'll reinstall later
[16:04] <jcastro> like, if you do gedit like this (it's doubling up the widgets right now otherwise I'd show you) it's like instant writeroom
[16:04] <jcastro> popey: 10.10?
[16:04] <popey> I have gone back to 10.10
[16:04] <popey> from 11.04
[16:05] <jcastro> oh? dang, it's been pretty good for me
[16:05] <jcastro> well, other than the huge breakage before xmas
[16:05]  * jcastro whistles
[16:06] <popey> :)
[16:06] <kim0> I guess I'll give it a try with natty next week
[16:07] <jcastro> popey: ok so basically I just wanted to say that maximize is now becoming fullscreen
[16:07] <popey> sweet
[16:07] <jcastro> popey: and the fusing of the top bits into one bar is pretty awesome
[16:07] <jcastro> I was not convinced at first
[16:08] <popey> I am convinced that the top only bar is a good thing, and I like the panel on the left
[16:08] <popey> I am totally bought into the whole thing
[16:09] <popey> it's just way to unstable for me right now
[16:09] <jcastro> there are days ... heh.
[16:10] <jcastro> yesterday I used jill's LTS desktop and was like "man, so this is what it's like to have a working computer"
[16:12] <popey> :)
[16:12] <jono> morning peeps :-)
[16:13] <jcastro> popey: I am blogging it
[16:13] <jcastro> it's awesome.
[16:13] <popey> show more screenshots of apps full screen
[16:13] <jcastro> jono will appreciate it more than you, I was expecting you to get all excited
[16:13] <popey> chrome, banshee etc :)
[16:13] <popey> I am jaded
[16:13] <jcastro> yeah the problem is that it's hosed with with some apps
[16:13] <jono> jcastro, appreciate what?
[16:13] <jcastro> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5720/unity-awesome-for-cli.png
[16:13] <jcastro> maximize something in unity
[16:14] <jcastro> it gets all fused into the top thing, it's awesome
[16:14]  * AlanBell updates the natty VM for some of this maximising crack
[16:14] <czajkowski> http://twitpic.com/3mxlvq/full  Chris Kingle pressie for on my desk this morning :D
[16:14] <czajkowski> see the logo
[16:14] <jono> jcastro, ahhh yeah
[16:15] <czajkowski> pleia2: do the CC meet tonight?
[16:18] <paultag> Morning :)
[16:19] <czajkowski> see twas paultag fault
[16:24] <jcastro> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post//maximize-is-the-new-fullscreen
[16:24] <jcastro> popey: jono: ^
[16:27] <sense> jono: I'm currently working on a governance structure for Ubuntu NL and in the reorganised structure we will have a Community Council consisting of six members plus the Ubuntu NL Leader, and all seven people are elected by the community. However, we have troubles to determine how to determine who has the right to vote and the right of candidature.
[16:27] <sense> jono: Do you have good examples for a selective body that can work to select people?
[16:27] <sense> We've looked into using Ubuntu Membership as a criteria, but found it too limiting, also due to its English nature.
[16:28] <kim0> would such a maximize=full-screen behaviour block notifications
[16:28] <czajkowski> sense: do ye really need a council?
[16:28]  * AlanBell isn't getting the fullscreen crackness :(
[16:29] <AlanBell> still got the unity bar at the side
[16:29] <jcastro> AlanBell: you need to turn on autohide in ccsm
[16:29] <jcastro> AlanBell: it will be turned on by default soon
[16:29] <AlanBell> oh
[16:29] <popey> jcastro: link to tweet?
[16:30] <AlanBell> oh is ccsm not going to be an instacrash option now?
[16:30] <sense> czajkowski: That council is the governing body, and we need it. Our activities make us seem smaller than we really are.
[16:30] <jcastro> http://castrojo.tumblr.com/
[16:30] <jcastro> AlanBell: only click that box, anything out of the unity plugin is real sensitive right now
[16:30] <jcastro> sorry, I mean http://castrojo.tumblr.com/post/2596623534/maximize-is-the-new-fullscreen
[16:30] <jono> jcastro, cool :-)
[16:30] <jcastro> ok from now on when I find something cool in unity I am going to blog it
[16:30] <jono> sense, do you really need a council for a LoCo team?
[16:31] <jcastro> and the haters will just have to deal
[16:31] <jono> it sounds like overkill to me
[16:31] <jono> jcastro, good man
[16:31] <sense> jono: We need a way to govern the community with legality/authority, and it would fit into the plans we have for a foundation.
[16:31] <sense> It has grown too large for informal organisation.
[16:32] <jono> sense, ok
[16:32] <czajkowski> sense: I really think a council is not a good idea sorry, I've seen it lead to nothing but trouble
[16:32] <jono> sense, I agree with czajkowski - I think councils are overkill and there are better ways to do it
[16:32] <jcastro> AlanBell: I've clarified the entry and added a link to ccsm instructions
[16:33] <sense> jono: What would be a better way?
[16:33] <sense> Dedicated people?
[16:33] <jono> sense, well why are you struggling with size?
[16:34] <jcastro> greg-g: sometimes I am glad we just do two events and drink beer. :)
[16:34] <jono> sense, councils typically don't serve scale better than a single or two leaders, as council's typically require quorum to make decisions
[16:34] <jono> councils mainly provide objectivity
[16:34] <jono> but I think they are too heavy for LoCo teams
[16:35] <jono> they are fine for large multi-sub-team communities (e.g. Ubuntu Community Council), but my hunch is that they are a bit heavy for LoCo teams
[16:35] <sense> The daily leadership is not in the hands of the council, but in appointed leaders. The council is for long-term discussions. The community, being Dutch, would never accept one or two leaders without something like a council.
[16:35] <jono> and also, pretty much every LoCo I have seen with a council gets wrapped up in bureaucracy
[16:35] <sense> That is indeed a danger we need to watch out for.
[16:36] <jono> sense, why don't dutch people like that?
[16:36] <jcastro> it's the land of The Hague!
[16:36] <czajkowski> heh
[16:36] <sense> jono: Because we believe we are all just as good as the other person, who just happens to have become the leader. If we wouldn't have had something better to do, we could have done the same.
[16:37] <sense> Everyone at least wants to have the feeling he or she is or can be heard.
[16:37] <jono> sense, that seems naive to me
[16:37] <jono> not everyone is a good leader
[16:37] <jono> there are many good people who are not good leaders
[16:37] <jono> sense, is this a cultural thing?
[16:37] <sense> We never had really strong leaders here, the people didn't allow leaders to have a strong character.
[16:38] <AlanBell> sense: would "focus groups" be a better term for long term discussions on particular topics?
[16:38] <greg-g> jcastro: :)
[16:38] <jono> sense, interesting, I never knew that
[16:39] <sense> AlanBell: We had that, but that didn't work out too well, because we had no rules for membership, and because a lot of people lost interest along the way.
[16:39] <AlanBell> people losing interest is a bigger problem if they are on a decision making body
[16:39] <jono> sense, the problem is that given the culture that you say in .nl, a council is likely to be riddled with bureaucracy
[16:40] <jono> I don't think I have ever correctly spelled "bureaucracy" without a spell-checker
[16:40] <czajkowski> I've seen teams have private membership which I_really_hate_to_see!
[16:40] <sense> We had private membership before.
[16:40] <jcastro> really?
[16:40] <sense> Which caused great unrest in the community, and vile and spite.
[16:40] <jono> private membership for what?
[16:40] <jcastro> Why would teams do private membership?
[16:41] <sense> All discussions took place in private, so the community's interest in the LoCo itself dwindled and mistrust grew rapidly.
[16:41] <jcastro> of course, a cabal is a death sentence
[16:41] <sense> Because people were afraid of the reactions if discussions would be held in the open.
[16:41] <czajkowski> jcastro: in some places, it's so they can meet the people first before they join, in other areas I've yet to get a straight answer. it's dying out, but very slowly
[16:41] <jono> sense, private discussions are unacceptable
[16:41] <jono> sense, well I recommend you continue to work with the LoCo Council and accept their recommendations
[16:42] <popey> uhm
[16:42] <sense> jono: That's what I said when I came in, and we have changed that now, but now the lack of any structure shows itself.
[16:42] <czajkowski> turkey and Israel used to have their meetings on a private thread in their forums which lead to a lott of trouble down the road, and again had private council/managers
[16:42] <popey> private discussions are totally acceptable
[16:42] <jono> sense, I know it is culturally unfamiliar, but I would recommend doing with the California team did and select two or three leaders
[16:42] <jono> preferably two
[16:42]  * popey points to the Community Council
[16:42] <jono> sense, I think you would make an excellent leaders
[16:42] <czajkowski> popey: council V locoteam...
[16:42] <czajkowski> popey: even the LC has private discussions.
[16:42] <popey> exactly
[16:43] <sense> jono: Thank you, I appreciate that. :)
[16:43] <popey> I don't think a blanket phrase "private discussions are unacceptable" is accurate. It's more subtle than that, is all I'm saying.
[16:43] <czajkowski> popey: are the CC meeting tonight as we've a long list of EMEA stuff
[16:43] <popey> I have no idea
[16:43] <czajkowski> popey: I think it's in reference to locoteams tbh..
[16:43] <sense> We don't plan to have all discussions out in the open, we just changed the rule from 'always private' to 'public, unless...'.
[16:43] <jcastro> popey: "we should default to public" :)
[16:43] <jono> popey, I mean't in the context of NL LoCo
[16:43] <popey> Yes, I know.
[16:44] <sense> czajkowski: How is the Irish team organised?
[16:44] <jono> sense, well it sounds like you are doing an excelent job
[16:44] <czajkowski> jcastro: indeed, except when it comes to Ubuntu councils, like the CC and LC we have stuff going on there that is definately private and sensative.
[16:44] <jcastro> czajkowski: sure sure, I agree
[16:44] <jono> and sense, if I was in the NL team I would immediately +1 as a leader
[16:44] <popey> bah
[16:44] <czajkowski> sense: ebel runs it as a point of contact, we have no team leader we share tasks out to people
[16:44] <popey> any team can have private discussions!
[16:44] <popey> private discussions are not veboten
[16:44] <jono> popey, I think you are getting wrapped up in one detail
[16:45] <popey> ok
[16:45] <jono> of course private discussions happen, we are talking about the general culture of a team
[16:45]  * popey shuts up
[16:45] <czajkowski> sense: he refuses to be called a team leader.
[16:45] <jono> :-)
[16:45] <jcastro> popey: right, but in the scope of a loco you don't want "the public list" and then "the secret private list where the REAL people hang out."
[16:45] <czajkowski> sense: we have someone who admins the wiki, website and adds content to the LD and eveyrone just pitches in.
[16:45] <sense> jono: I'm doing my best to help with leading the team, that's all. It's rewarding to see that since the community opened up more people have started to enthusiastically contribute to the LoCo.
[16:45] <sense> czajkowski: So IE is an example of a very informal LoCo?
[16:45] <jono> sense, you have proven yourself to be an excellent and masture contributor
[16:45] <jono> mature
[16:46] <jono> I think your work in conjunction with the LoCo Council will be great
[16:46] <jono> and let me know if I can help
[16:46] <czajkowski> sense: we'll we have a monthly meeting which is chaired, and have 3 Ubuntu hours a month, plus Quiz, and Geeknicks, we're very active, but we just don't have a leader as such, but we're approved 2 years this July hopefully.
[16:46] <sense> jono: I sure will, thank you!
[16:46] <jono> sense, :-)
[16:47] <sense> czajkowski: I wished we would come together more often, it really helps to raise the spirit.
[16:47] <czajkowski> sense: you're mpore than welcome to skype me some evening if you want to chat
[16:47] <czajkowski> I'm free all evenings this week bar thursday and possibly this evening
[16:47] <czajkowski> or some evneing next week or over the weekend lauraczajkowski on skype
[16:48]  * AlanBell spots a private discussion
[16:48] <czajkowski> I'll happily talk to the wall :)
[16:48] <czajkowski> AlanBell: shrup ya pup!
[16:48]  * AlanBell shuts up
[16:48] <sense> AlanBell: private government matters! Do not WikiLeak!
[16:51] <sense> czajkowski: Thank you for the offer, I'll consider a bit more first and then I'll see what I can ask you!
[16:51] <jcastro> james_w: how do I get fully verbose logs in bzr log. Is --include-merges enough?
[16:51] <jcastro> james_w: I don't want to miss a single commit in any branch ever merged
[16:52] <jcastro> AlanBell: autohide is now on by default in trunk btw.
[16:52]  * popey hides jcastro 
[16:52] <popey> hmm, need a bigger screen
[16:52] <AlanBell> jcastro: any idea when the other options in ccsm are going to be safe to tinker with?
[16:53] <jcastro> AlanBell: there's some deep breakage at the moment. Next week is the platform sprint so I say 2 weeks?
[16:53] <jcastro> it's also the same thing causing battery life to be horrible afaict
[16:54] <AlanBell> great, I want to do some testing with the colorblindness filter on
[16:55] <jcastro> AlanBell: I have found that enabling it crashes the whole thing, then I restart and whatever I checked last works
[16:55] <jcastro> it's not ideal at all, heh
[16:55] <AlanBell> it wouldn't stay on for me, worked in classic gnome, but then forgets the settings in Unity
[16:56] <czajkowski> sense: no problem any time
[17:02]  * popey tickles everyone and goes home
[17:02] <czajkowski> cheeky
[17:07] <pleia2> just a heads up everyone - lp polls are coming back
[17:07] <pleia2> czajkowski: yes, cc meeting this afternoon
[17:08] <czajkowski> pleia2: is it definately going to take place, as EMEA has a massive list again this month :s last time we finished on time for a CC meeting that never took place.
[17:08] <pleia2> I don't know, we at least have to show up and see if any community members have anything to bring up with us
[17:09] <pleia2> even if we don't have quorum we need to give the community that opportunity, even if it means we take it to the list
[17:09] <pleia2> sorry :\
[17:10]  * AlanBell suggests an EMEA meeting with an interval
[17:10] <czajkowski> pleia2: tis fine it's just getting a tad frustrating for us to finish and we get it in the neck for not getting through the large list for meeting that doesnt happen. Any way the CC would consider moving :)
[17:10] <pleia2> the CC meeting has been at that time slot for years, Mark doesn't want to change it
[17:10] <czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[17:10] <czajkowski> pleia2: aye but he also doesn't turn up...
[17:11] <czajkowski> not your fault just getting a tad annoying
[17:11] <pleia2> it's not about him being there, it's about the established time that Has Always Been
[17:11] <czajkowski> fair enough.
[17:11] <AlanBell> where did Kate Smith go?
[17:12] <AlanBell> s/Smith/Stewart/
[17:12] <pleia2> but I tend to agree with AlanBell, if your meeting goes over just take a break for 20 minutes to see if anything comes up with the CC
[17:12] <pleia2> if not you can resume
[17:12] <czajkowski> AlanBell: she wasn't on the EMEA board meeting, she was on the USA one
[17:13] <czajkowski> pleia2: bit messy, but maybe
[17:13] <AlanBell> ah ok
[17:13] <pleia2> czajkowski: honestly if the emea board keeps bumping into other meetings it should be the one to move :(
[17:13] <czajkowski> pleia2: this is the latest and earliest it can start for the members... any later and it's too late and tuesday is not a good time for anyone with other meetings in the month
[17:13] <czajkowski> it's a catch 22 tbh
[17:13]  * AlanBell is reminded of http://www.snopes.com/military/lighthouse.asp
[17:14] <pleia2> no other days of the week work?
[17:14] <czajkowski> Tues-thursday is one of the busiest times on the Ubuntu cal looking at it
[17:15] <pleia2> it is a bit unfortunate that asias and emea are on the same day each month
[17:15] <pleia2> if you're not available that day you have to go to americas, or wait another month
[17:16] <czajkowski> do many EU folks go to Americas ?
[17:17] <pleia2> not many, I don't think people know it's an option (I told one person it was last meeting when emea had to stop)
[17:18] <czajkowski> Tuesday and Wednesdays are nightmare days for me in the evenings and now Thursday is turning into being one also, between conference meetings and Salsa dancing
[17:18] <czajkowski> there is never an optium day for everyone I do fully see that.
[17:18] <pleia2> this isn't the place to sort out your schedule with other members anyway, I understand that scheduling is hard, insisting that the CC move it's long-standing meeting just isn't the way to fix this
[17:19] <pleia2> americas used to decide a meeting time each month based on schedules, it was nice when we could all finally commit to a day but certainly isn't required
[17:20] <czajkowski> pleia2: oh I wasn't trying to sort out anything here, it started off asking was the CC meeting that's all. :)
[17:20]  * pleia2 nods
[17:21] <pleia2> if it's on the schedule those of us around will show up :)
[17:21] <czajkowski> nods
[17:21] <pleia2> and we are working on making the meetings more useful, our problem lately has been no agenda, so it's been kinda a "community can comment" thing - but I don't think most of the community knows it's a community can comment thing
[17:21] <czajkowski> pleia2: nods
[17:21] <czajkowski> tis grand really
[17:21] <czajkowski> just wondered that's all
[17:22] <czajkowski> shall go to gym after EMEA
[17:46] <dpm> ok everyone, calling it a day. See you all tomorrow!
[17:47] <dpm> pleia2, great work with UWN btw!
[17:47] <dpm> and nhandler too
[17:47] <pleia2> dpm: thanks :)
[17:48] <dpm> bye!
[17:48] <Pici> pleia2: Do you have a moment for a pm?
[17:48] <pleia2> Pici: sure
[17:58] <Technoviking> 'allo all
[17:58] <Pici> Howdy
[18:21] <jcastro> hahaha man
[18:21] <jcastro> jono: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10316179&postcount=78
[18:22] <jcastro> THEY KNOW ME
[18:22] <jono> jcastro, nice!
[18:22] <jcastro> I am as predictable as ... <fill in the blank>
[18:22] <jcastro> it's queued up to automatically post, I'm going to let the current unity one sit on top o' planet for a little longer
[18:23] <jcastro> in before the doctormo tentacles!
[18:25]  * doctormo knows they're everywhere
[18:25] <jono> lol
[18:29] <doctormo> jono: How is your second day back?
[18:29] <jono> doctormo, good thanks :-)
[18:30] <jono> hows things there?
[18:30] <doctormo> jono: Practicing the keyboard, all good otherwise. Got a bit of writers block over the progress indicator.
[18:31] <jono> doctormo, gotcha
[18:39] <jcastro> I suppose now would be a good time to get lunch
[18:39] <jcastro> <--- on a taco run
[18:50] <jono> jcastro, do it
[18:51] <doctormo> jono: What are you working on?
[18:52] <jono> doctormo, just responding to email
[18:52] <doctormo> Heh, more email.
[18:52] <jono> doctormo, you?
[18:53] <doctormo> Writing python code.
[18:53] <jono> cool :)
[18:58] <jcastro> ok I was held up
[18:58] <jcastro> NOW I am going for tecos
[18:58] <jcastro> tacos even
[18:58] <jcastro> man, what a day
[19:30] <Technoviking> Unity stop making me sad
[19:37] <jcastro> I will be happy when this week's upload smoothes out stuff
[19:39] <jcastro> Technoviking: every once in a while I do a "unity --reset"
[19:39] <jcastro> when things go south
[19:46] <Technoviking> jcastro: thank will try that
[19:49] <Technoviking> much better, thank you sir
[20:11] <jcastro> hmm, dholbach is apparently online somewhere triaging community bugs
[20:15] <nigelb> jcastro: and uploading photos
[20:15] <nigelb> and facebooking
[20:28] <daker> kim0, you there ?
[20:28] <kim0> daker: yeah
[20:29] <kim0> daker: r u on now
[20:29] <daker> not yet ツ maybe in 30min or less
[20:38] <pleia2> Technoviking, popey, thoughts on CC meeting in 22 minutes? nothing on the agenda again, I figure we just show up and see if anyone has anything, if not we let EMEA get back to their meeting
[20:38] <popey> sure
[20:38] <popey> I'm easy given I'm sat here already
[20:39] <pleia2> :)
[20:41] <czajkowski> popey: shouldn't tell folks how easy you are! :p
[20:41] <popey> i have a laptop, telly and wine
[20:42] <czajkowski> just in thedoor housemate collected me as train ran late
[20:42] <pleia2> hey, I deserve some easy! it's been a rough few weeks :)
[20:42] <daker> kim0, now
[20:44] <czajkowski> pleia2: *HUGS*
[20:45] <pleia2> hugs!
[20:45] <pleia2> :)
[20:49] <czajkowski> that or a bagel and peanutbutter and mug of tea
[20:49] <czajkowski> take your pic
[20:56] <popey> pleia2: nice work on UWN this month!
[20:56] <popey> s/this/last
[20:59] <czajkowski> oh we may actually finish on time,...
[20:59] <pleia2> thanks :)
[20:59] <popey> tick tock tick tock
[21:01] <czajkowski>  and in the nick of time battery about to die
[21:03] <czajkowski> clearly not my smartest move, told the motership I was going to spain, she's now cancled her english trip and coming with me to spain. so much for peace and quiet
[21:05] <popey> hahaha
[21:06]  * czajkowski steals popey bottle of wine 
[21:08] <JFo> oooh, that reminds me that I have wine. :-)
[21:08]  * JFo goes to pop open a bottle
[21:08]  * czajkowski steals JFo wine 
[21:39] <jcastro> Dan, get your knife
[21:49]  * popey hugs pleia2 
[21:49]  * pleia2 hugs popey