[00:56] <ScottL> ailo, the ubuntustudio-dev group is restricted to those familiar with code, otherwise some fairly dramatic, although unintentional, issues might result :P
[01:02] <ailo> ScottL: No problem. Just trying to figure out how things are connected. Who does what, what needs to be done. Is there a wishlist. That sort of thing.
[01:14] <ScottL> ailo, i'm glad you feel that way :)
[01:14] <ScottL> as far as a wishlist, this would be the closest thing, i think: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning
[01:15] <ScottL> to be honest, it seems that most people are not involved consistently enough to do it collaboratively, so i keep a running list of things i would like to accomplish
[01:15] <ScottL> i wish it were otherwise
[01:15] <holstein> ScottL: maybe we could get a few of use commited
[01:16] <holstein> and do something more formal
[01:16] <holstein> ailo and i were talking about a wiki page
[01:16] <holstein> with tasks
[01:16] <ScottL> holstein, that would be awesome
[01:16] <holstein> and we assign ourselves
[01:16] <ScottL> we used to have something similar, hold one
[01:16] <holstein> i was talking about maybe we could get something like that going on by february
[01:16] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/LucidTaskList
[01:17] <ailo> At least it would be great if all participants, even tester can check what needs testing, what needs solving and so on.
[01:17] <ScottL> yes it would :)
[01:18] <ScottL> i had thought about making a task-list page, one that would be continually updated for each release instead of a new one for each release
[01:18] <ScottL> but it doesn't have to be that way, whatever people want and whatever works
[01:19] <holstein> ScottL: whatever you think is more convinient
[01:19] <ailo> We could start by just one for Natty, and if it works to keep the same for later releases, just keep it.
[01:20] <holstein> i like it 
[01:21] <ailo> I'm a little concerned with some out of date pages here and there, on launchpad, and maybe on the wiki too
[01:21] <ailo> When people look for info, it can get a little confusing
[01:23] <holstein> ailo: sounds like a good item for that wiki we're proposing
[01:24] <holstein> maybe just a search and locate the pages project
[01:24] <holstein> thats something i could chew through
[01:25] <ailo> I think there should be a link to a development, open to anyone on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/, that doesn't need to conflict with the dev teams work. 
[01:25] <ScottL> updating the out-of-date pages, or deprecating them, would be a good task :)
[01:26] <ailo> That would be a good starting point to collect links to other pages too
[01:26] <ScottL> ailo, the general feeling is that all pages on wiki.ubuntu.com should be for developing ubuntu studio and help.ubuntu.com should be for using ubuntu studio
[01:27] <holstein> OH
[01:27] <ScottL> that's just a large and generalized overview of the documentation scheme
[01:27] <holstein> thats news to me
[01:27] <holstein> makes sense though
[01:27] <ScottL> there is some cross pollination between the two, but i think it would be helpful going forward to try to adhere to that convention
[01:29] <ailo> We need some standard items to work on as well, I think, but perhaps this could be outlined in a meeting later on. I'm thinking we need a list of things to test, and that sort of thing.
[01:30] <holstein> i like the idea here
[01:30] <ScottL> some of the things to test would be based on the work flows beings developed, but also there are other, more system-level things as well
[01:30] <holstein> a non-dev development wiki page
[01:30] <holstein> someting i can just reference real quick
[01:30] <holstein> drop links to wiki pages in
[01:30] <holstein> ping you guys to look at them
[01:30] <holstein> things that i think need to be tested
[01:30] <holstein> OR that i need confirmed
[01:31] <ailo> It's generally the oversight I feel is missing, that probably the dev guys have, but it's not communicating.
[01:32] <holstein> i think the more we do though
[01:32] <holstein> to be organized
[01:32] <holstein> the better
[01:32] <ailo> I agree
[01:32] <holstein> if we have links to present with black and white print of what we need
[01:32] <holstein> drop that in #moto or whatever
[01:33] <ScottL> i had tried to get a few guys to form a testing group to develop some of these tests
[01:33] <ScottL> just oversight stuff like: does jack start, does ardour start, does gimp start, etc
[01:33] <holstein> its challenging
[01:33] <holstein> with JACK
[01:34] <ScottL> making some simple recordings, use a synth to make noise (or music)
[01:34] <holstein> that can be SO hardware dependant
[01:34] <ailo> Is UbuntuStudio-controls still outdated?
[01:34] <holstein> my firewire interface wont start with JACK in 10.10
[01:34] <holstein> but that doesnt make JACK broken
[01:34] <ailo> I'd say these are issues to put in the wiki
[01:35] <holstein> and im just getting to where i think i could trouble-shoot and get to the bottom of some of that
[01:40] <ailo> I think many users are accustomed to doing fixes themselves on a lot of releases. They won't do a bug report even.
[01:40] <holstein> bug reports are still challening for me
[01:40] <holstein> and its a lot of work too
[01:41] <holstein> can be
[01:41] <ScottL> ailo, yes, ubuntustudio-controls is outdated
[01:41] <holstein> and, like my issue
[01:41] <holstein> is that a bug?
[01:41] <holstein> JACK works
[01:41] <ScottL> i can't find anybody with python experience who is willing to work on it
[01:41] <holstein> just not with my firewire interface
[01:41] <ailo> ScottL: I know a little python.
[01:41] <holstein> i filed a bug report though
[01:42] <ScottL> holstein, i don't think it's that big of deal to test jack, we need someone with pci card and another with firewire to test it using their normal setup
[01:42] <ailo> I'm guessing it's basically just a script, but it needs su permission to edit files.
[01:42] <ScottL> they should be familiar enough with their hardware to understand what it should take to get it started, if it doesn't start then there is a problem
[01:42] <ScottL> ailo, yes, basically, but there is other stuff
[01:42] <holstein> sure, but how do we get it fixed ?
[01:43] <ScottL> like checking to see if the limits.conf file (or whatever) already has rtprio, et al, already there and change that line instead of adding a new one
[01:43] <holstein> i dont think its OK to ship it out of the box with what would be needed
[01:43] <holstein> OR that was the excuse i heard that made sense
[01:44] <holstein> and, how much of a priority should firewire devices be?
[01:44] <ailo> ScottL: jack is using a different file for that now. It's in /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
[01:44] <ScottL> holstein, in a general sense, if testing results in a problem, then report it in a bug or to the -dev team, and we work on a fix before release
[01:44] <holstein> it doesnt say anywhere on the site 'firewire support out of the box'
[01:44] <ScottL> holstein, but i understand your point about firewire devices
[01:44] <holstein> ive seen the bugs for that though
[01:44] <ScottL> and i concede the point
[01:45] <holstein> since hardy and before
[01:45] <ailo> Ubuntustudio control should not be needed anymore, unless one wants to toggle rt
[01:45] <holstein> and when i have made noise, i heard a security concern, which i understand
[01:45] <ScottL> i would like to perhaps have a ubuntu studio-dev ppa with a -rt kernel in it and have a package that updates the sources.list to include that ppa
[01:45] <holstein> ScottL: i like that
[01:45] <ScottL> ailo, i think it also enable the raw1394 for video/firewire
[01:46] <ailo> ScottL: right, but that has changed too now.
[01:46] <ailo> Because of the new firewire stack
[01:46] <ScottL> holstein, let's be honest, laptops and firewire cards are probably half (if not more) of the users now and probably will continue to be a substantial percentage for the future
[01:46] <holstein> yeah, might need to search aroudn and find all the changes
[01:46] <holstein> get them on that wiki too
[01:46] <holstein> so we know what is what
[01:46] <ScottL> ailo, oh, i didn't know that
[01:47] <holstein> ScottL: i think its a good idea for it to be a priority IF the focus is going to be pro-audio out of the box
[01:47] <ailo> I put the question to Asmo on the -dev mail list if he got firewire working out of the box on Natty. On Maverick it won't.
[01:48] <ailo> Installing jackd already takes care of rt
[01:48] <holstein> ScottL ailo , i think this has been a productive meeting so far :)
[01:51] <ailo> ScottL: I think it has been proved that there is a gap between user and dev in this case. Testing is a way to redeem that. I think Abogani put it out there first, and that has made a few of us users to get involved.
[01:52] <ailo> We don't need to be so many, but we need all kinds
[01:52] <ailo> To do testing
[01:52] <ailo> And we need to be able to see the results, and then act on them
[01:54] <ScottL> ailo, "installing jack takes care of rt"...i think yes and no, it installs a preset in the audio.conf file but what if someone wants to change the memlock from unlimited?
[01:54] <ScottL> holstein, i agree, this has been productive :)
[01:55] <ScottL> ailo, very true, we had considered developing a matrix of what types of test and testers we would like (e.g. start jackd using pci card, start jackd using firewire, etc)
[01:57] <ailo> Ubuntustudio-control is a way for a normal user to get access to rt control, without having to know how it works. I think jackd's default settings already take are of that. For a new user, they don't even know what rt is.
[01:58] <ailo> I think abstracting things is a big discussion. On Linux we like to be able to do what we want
[01:58] <ailo> Gui-tools do not always let you do that, but if this one has legitimity, why not?
[02:00] <ailo> ScottL: Anyway, I like "e.g. start jackd using pci card, start jackd...". We need that.
[02:02] <ailo> ScottL: I'll have a look at Ubuntustudio controls. I have knowledge enough to adjust it. The base code is already there. One only needs to tweak it. If needed I can do something with it. Otherwise, I would take it off the repo.
[02:11] <ScottL> ailo, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16
[02:12] <ScottL> about 1/2 down the first screen it mentions ubuntustudio-controls update
[02:14] <ScottL> ailo, i don't know that we have considered all the uses for -controls
[02:14] <ailo> ScottL: Ok, so there are some big plans for that app, then :)
[02:14] <ailo> Sort of like a US wizard
[02:14] <ScottL> not necessarily, just floating ideas, but no one seemed to really get into it
[02:15] <ScottL> but you are right, if nothing is going to be done with it (e.g. fix it or improve it), then it should be removed
[02:16] <holstein> +1 on remove
[02:16] <ScottL> holstein had mentioned included the -rt kernel on the disc like another distro had done along with instructions how to install it
[02:16] <ScottL> this might be translated into something in -controls for the -rt kernel ppa
[02:16] <ScottL> for an example
[02:17] <holstein> well, thats true
[02:17] <holstein> and a good ide
[02:17] <holstein> a
[02:17] <holstein> hmmm
[02:17] <ScottL> lol
[02:17] <ailo> I'm interested in that.
[02:18] <ailo> I like the idea of some sort of wizard, that would help new users to get comfortable fast.
[02:18] <ScottL> stochastic made another suggestion that i had toyed with before: giving new users links to help via shortcuts on the desktop
[02:18] <ScottL> i would even like to include a 'release notes' also on the disc that installs and is in the menu
[02:18]  * ScottL stole that from debian lxde
[02:19] <holstein> i like all of this
[02:19] <holstein> i feel like, if you're using ubuntustudio, and dont get on the irc
[02:19] <holstein> you're just screwed
[02:20] <holstein> OR i was
[02:20] <ScottL> when i have built a machine for friends and installed ubuntu studio i do a few things for them
[02:20] <holstein> i used to fire up rosegarden and wonder why it wasnt doing anything
[02:20] <holstein> or wonder what those JACK errors were when i would click on something
[02:20] <ScottL> i add firefox icons on the desktop for help.ubuntu.com, ubuntu forums, wiki.ubuntu.com, a video i made for starting and using jack, ardour, rakarrack
[02:20] <ailo> Well, we could decide on a deadline when it needs to be finished. I can take it on. I'm sure there lot's of people interested in participating.
[02:20] <ScottL> and setup xchat to get into #ubuntustudio on IRC
[02:21] <holstein> ScottL: NICE
[02:21] <holstein> instead of #ubuntu
[02:21] <ScottL> i would love to include instruction videos (or links to them) on the disc
[02:21] <holstein> ScottL: we have missed natty right?
[02:21] <holstein> natty is in freeze for us too right?
[02:21] <ScottL> but all these ideas get put on the backburner because i'm struggling to things straight just for releases
[02:22] <holstein> or does that include us too?
[02:22] <ScottL> holstein, no, it shouldn't be yet i don't think
[02:22] <ScottL> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule
[02:22] <ScottL> release freeze is at the end of february, i think that would be what we need to worry about
[02:23] <ScottL> BUT, if we are making new packages, then yes we would have troubles, REVU doesn't move fast :(
[02:23] <ScottL> we should probably organize it all and truly understand what we want to incorporate
[02:23] <ScottL> then make a simple package for just one part of what we want done
[02:24] <ScottL> once it's in the repos, then updating it to include other aspects is much, much easier
[02:24] <ailo> Well, I'm still waiting to hear whether firewire does work out of the box. If it does, US-controls won't be needed anyway, and we can let that one wait until the next release.
[02:24] <holstein> i dont think we need to make new packages
[02:24] <holstein> for now
[02:24] <holstein> for natty
[02:24] <holstein> some of these little changes would be great though
[02:25] <holstein> and a menu item or 2
[02:25] <ScottL> there were still things that i had planned for natty:  updating menu, new artwork, new plymouth theme
[02:25] <holstein> ScottL: did you see that email from falk?
[02:25] <holstein> about his menu?
[02:25] <holstein> i liked that too
[02:25] <ScottL> yes holstein, but there are things going on in debian that might preclude our efforts
[02:26] <holstein> AH
[02:26] <ScottL> they are considering the same thing, but not in the hackneyed way we are currently doing it
[02:26] <ailo> About plymouth, what's the problem other than that it is not syncing with boot (so fast these days)
[02:26] <ScottL> they want to create new categories and including these categories in the desktop file
[02:26] <ScottL> this way it's all automatic and according to convention
[02:27] <ailo> Categorizing is hard to do on a general level
[02:27] <holstein> ScottL: i like that to
[02:27] <holstein> o
[02:27] <holstein> whats the ETA on that?
[02:27] <ScottL> ailo, well, the graphics are crappy :-)  i can say that becuase i did them (plymouth)
[02:28] <ScottL> seriously, i realized that we were switching, nobody had a plymouth theme, so i spent a frantic weekend learning plymouth, and made that theme
[02:28] <holstein> i dont think i have the US plymouth theme
[02:28] <ailo> Wow, nice work. It impressed my friends, when I showed them US.
[02:28] <holstein> maybe i broke it
[02:29] <ScottL> cory's new plymouth theme (that needs some tweaks):  http://www.fossmusicproject.org/public/images/new-plymouth-theme.png
[02:29] <ScottL> ignore the fact that the circle-like thing is to the left of the coF
[02:29] <ailo> The plymouth theme doesn't really have any reason to exist in the future, I think, since boots are so fast. Better to use a simple image.
[02:29] <ScottL> if should be over the CoF and spinning in a circle
[02:29] <holstein> yeah, saw that, and i liked it
[02:30] <holstein> slcik
[02:30] <holstein> slick*
[02:30] <ScottL> i would also like to remove the progress bar because of what ailo said
[02:30] <ailo> slick is the word
[02:31]  * ScottL is going to take a shower
[02:31] <holstein> ScottL: laterx
[02:31] <holstein> ailo: i like where this is going
[02:32] <ailo> holstein: me too. 
[03:02] <ScottL> ailo, and holstein, agreed, this is asesome progress, i'm very glad that both of you are here :)
[03:03] <holstein> w00t
[03:04] <ScottL> i'll try to add these ideas to the release planning page for natty+1
[03:04] <ScottL> just to get them down on "paper"
[09:10]  * abogani waves
[09:10] <abogani> Which will be the default music player in Natty? banshee?
[09:13] <ailo> abogani: I heard it would be, but so far not..
[09:14] <ailo> Though, rythmbox has ben removed from the volume indicator menu
[09:15] <abogani> ailo: Thanks!
[10:50] <jussi> ScottL: ping me when you are around - Id like to pass the ML's completely over to you 
[13:49] <scott-work> jussi: is this something that needs to be done while i am at work?
[13:49] <scott-work> s/work/home?
[14:00] <scott-work> supercollider may be hitting debian soon :)
[14:01] <scott-work> looks like a patch went from debian multimedia upstream and it is being incorporated into the their upcoming release
[17:55] <holstein> scott-work: ScottL if you get a minute, feel free to mark that new bug i filed 'wishlist' as well
[17:55] <holstein> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/697774
[17:55] <holstein> i'll go ahead and assigne myself
[17:55] <holstein> bbl...
[17:55] <falktx> hehe, holstein, that will only work if US was a live-cd/dvd
[17:56] <holstein> falktx: i already filed that bug :)
[17:56] <holstein> and marked it wishlist
[17:56] <holstein> just trying to make some official documentation
[17:56] <holstein> i need to get that added to the install wiki at some point
[17:57] <falktx> i promised a live-dvd of US, and I'll make it
[17:57] <falktx> just need time...
[17:57] <holstein> i saw that i missed i question about that in #ubuntustudio
[17:58] <holstein> "cant get unetbootin to work with ubuntustudio iso
[17:58] <holstein> resonable mistake
[17:58] <holstein> if you're new to the alternate installers
[18:01] <holstein> alright, for realz.. BBL
[18:01] <holstein> done with lunch
[19:11] <scott-work> holstein: in your bug you link to a flash drive install page and say that it _should_ work,  are you saying that you tried it with ubuntu studio and it doesn't work?
[22:06] <holstein> scott-work: OH
[22:06] <holstein> good point
[22:06] <holstein> let me go and fix that
[22:06] <holstein> that is a work-around that i actually havent tried
[22:06] <holstein> BUT i have been told several times that it worked with 10.04
[22:07] <holstein> hasnt come up since than
[22:07] <holstein> then*
[22:08] <scott-work> holstein: sorry, i wasn't meaning to be a syntax nazi ;)  i meant more of does it work?
[22:09] <holstein> scott-work: no, totally
[22:09] <holstein> its not clear
[22:09] <holstein> i did it really quick before lunch