/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/01/08/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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jussiright, who is here?20:01
jussitopyli: tsimpson nhandler Pici?20:02
topyliheyhey!20:02
* tsimpson is here20:02
jussiok, we have quorum...20:03
jussitsimpson: bout your turn for chair, right?20:03
tsimpsonprobably20:04
tsimpson#startmeeting20:05
MootBotMeeting started at 14:05. The chair is tsimpson.20:05
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]20:05
tsimpson[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda20:05
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda20:05
tsimpson[topic] Offtopic Guidelines20:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Offtopic Guidelines20:05
tsimpson[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenjaminRubin/OfftopicGuidelines20:06
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenjaminRubin/OfftopicGuidelines20:06
tsimpsonnot sure if Pici is about20:06
tsimpsonbut it's been on the agenda a while now20:06
jussithat link basically says:20:06
jussiTo be placed under the 'Language and Subject' heading in our guidelines20:06
jussiOur offtopic channels are designed to be places where people can be in company of others while talking about subjects that they enjoy. We realize that many of us enjoy figuring out computer problems, but we respectfully ask that if a conversation is turning into something that you would more likely see in our support channels, that you bring it there instead. That said, if someone asks you to move your support conversation into one of our20:06
jussisupport channels, please do so.20:06
jussiIm +1 on this, no problems20:07
topylii think the last sentence is the relevant one20:07
topylithe rest is dressing :)20:07
jussiIm happy to have a vote that we add this, if you like?20:08
tsimpsonit's something that we have done before, this is just putting it into writing20:08
topyliyeah. let us vote20:08
tsimpson[vote] Add the above to IRC/Guidelines under Language and Subject20:09
MootBotPlease vote on:  Add the above to IRC/Guidelines under Language and Subject.20:09
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot20:09
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting20:09
jussi+120:09
MootBot+1 received from jussi. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 120:09
tsimpson+120:09
MootBot+1 received from tsimpson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 220:09
topyli+120:09
MootBot+1 received from topyli. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 320:09
jussiexcellent20:09
tsimpson[endvote]20:09
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 320:09
tsimpsonso who wants to do that?20:09
jussigive it o Pici20:09
tsimpson[action] Pici to edit the guidelines wiki20:09
MootBotACTION received:  Pici to edit the guidelines wiki20:09
topylii would change the wording, but i can talk to Pici about it20:10
tsimpson[topic] Dealing with Ubuntu IRC Problem Users20:10
MootBotNew Topic:  Dealing with Ubuntu IRC Problem Users20:10
topylinhandler wanted to submit his document for review by the team. i'm happy with the content of it, but it's a bit meditative and needs to be formatted20:12
ikoniacan you provide context of this document ?20:12
ikoniaor background to the item ?20:12
topyliwell20:13
topyliit aims to reduce trigger happiness20:13
ikoniagreat, more documentation and process20:13
topyliit tries to reinforce the guidelines we already have. first you +q and talk to the user, and so on. you don't declare people trolls right away and ban them20:14
topylithat sort of thing20:14
ikoniano20:14
ikoniathere shouldn't be a first you do this, then you do that, it should be" you use common sense for the sitaution "20:14
topyliit's often not happening, so i do support documentation20:15
ikoniathen speak to the people it's not happening with20:15
ikoniarather than put another document / process in place20:15
jussiI disagree, having guidelines are a good thing.20:16
topyliin fact it's already in the operator guidelines, as well as the leadership guidelines. assume best of the user, give them benefit of the doubt20:16
ikoniathe guidelines are there, there doesn't need to be another document to backup the guidelines20:16
tsimpsonif we do have a set of guidelines then we don't have to rely on an interpretation of what should be done20:16
ikoniayou arleady have guidelines though, why is there a need for another document20:16
tsimpsonwe aren't planning to have something that says "you must do this...", but something that guides our general enforcement of the channel rules20:17
ikoniayou arleady have guidelines though, why is there a need for another document20:17
jussiI think nhandler's intention is this will get merged nto the guidelines, but of that I am not certain.20:18
topyliif we followed the loose guidelines we already have, we shouldn't have a need for more precise documentation. but we seem to be failing20:18
tsimpsonthe other guidelines aren't really a policy, more a set of technical solutions20:18
tsimpsonthis one is intended to be more of a behaviour guide20:18
ikoniatopyli: if people are not following the guide;omes. lets speak to them, instead of doing another doucment20:18
topyliyes we should do that as well20:20
ikoniayou should do that, full stop20:20
ikoniaone of the complaints/feedback to the council in the recent troubled times was due to not listening to the community, or communicting20:20
ikoniaone of the things was too much process, not enough common sense20:21
ikoniaand lack of communictaion20:21
ikoniacommunicate with people if you feel they are not in line with the guidelines20:21
ikoniastop making processes of processeses, of documents20:21
ikoniathe team is small, most would welcome communication rather than another guidelines/policy being pushed at them20:22
topylimaybe you should look at the document though, once we decide to submit it for evaluation. then decide whether or not you like it20:23
tsimpsonthe current section on op behaviour is very terse, we are expanding on that20:23
ikoniatopyli: I take the point, but I feel the council should stop working on documents like this and start actually gaining the confidence of the operators and community it serves20:23
jussiand submitting the document to you for evaluation and help is part of communicating and inclusion.20:23
ikoniajussi: same point, submitting a document that doesn't need changing, isn't what people want,20:24
tsimpsoncurrently there really is near no policy on how ops should act, so users can not tell if an op is overstepping their bounds or acting inappropriately20:24
jussiWe arent forcing changes, just saying, ok, this is happening, we are writing some stuff down, and allowing you to take part.20:24
tsimpsonthat is a cause of problems20:24
ikoniatsimpson: there are guidlines exactly the same as the users20:25
tsimpsonoperators have more requirements on their behaviour than users do20:25
topyliikonia: operators have committed to much more than that20:25
ikoniatopyli: yes, but those commitments/guildlines are called out in the same way as the users20:26
IdleOneIMO the problem is interpretation of the guidelines, one op will judge something to be a violation and an different op will not.20:26
jussiikonia: so you object to us modifying the guideline?20:26
ikoniaif you are going to call out specific operator rules/guidlines that an operator can be judged on, you need specific user rules that can be applied20:26
ikoniajussi: yes, at this time20:26
nhandlero/20:27
jussiWell until you read the document, when nhandler gets her...20:27
tsimpsonhey nhandler :)20:27
jussihi nhandler20:27
topylinhandler: so. we were trying to decide whether or not to submit your draft for discussion, but the discussion started without it :)20:29
topylii for one think it's a good base and should be submitted on the mailing list20:30
nhandler[LINK] https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ASFFoXLMT-guZGhoZmZxNG1fNTYyaHB3NzNxZGM&hl=en&authkey=CNCQ__wP20:30
MootBotLINK received:  https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ASFFoXLMT-guZGhoZmZxNG1fNTYyaHB3NzNxZGM&hl=en&authkey=CNCQ__wP20:30
ikoniaI find the concept of this document not required, and I find the situation it will bring - users complaining it was not followed unacceptable20:31
tsimpsonso you are saying that users should not be able to hold operators accountable?20:32
topyliusers should complain right now if something goes against the spirit of that doc20:33
ikonianope, I'm saying they should be judged on common sense20:33
ikonianot by a document20:33
tsimpsoncommon sense seems vary wildly20:33
ikoniaI don't think it does20:33
ikoniamost people in the operator team are in agreement on most users behaviour and when it doesn't agree it talks it thorugh and it's resolved with the user20:34
ikoniaI don't see an issue currently, if you do, we need to talk about it20:34
ikoniaI really find the word "job" thorughout the document inappropriate, although I appreciate the context it's meant in20:35
topylilet's submit it to the mailing list. we need feedback from everyone in the team who wants to chip in, not the few who are here20:35
tsimpsonwe aren't deciding to implement the changes, we are only discussing the document at the moment20:35
topylinot useful debating details in the meeting. let's decide whethr or not submit it20:35
tsimpsoncomments and modification are welcome20:35
ikoniacat /dev/null > document20:36
ikoniasend it to the list20:36
nhandlerOne thing we would also like is some help converting it to a nicer wiki format20:36
nhandlerBullets are much nicer than long documents :)20:36
ikoniacan I ask the council to also outline a similar document for council jobs, commitments and behaviour please.20:36
topylithe irc council's duties and behavior are dictated by the community council, we can't really do that20:37
nhandlerWhich are outlined at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/Charter20:37
ikoniatopyli: sure you can20:37
ikonianhandler: that is not specific and does not call out specific behaviour rules, such as your document20:38
ikoniaI'd like to see documentation for how the council should handle situations, that they can be judged on20:38
tsimpsonsituations such as?20:38
ikoniacommon things, like responding to email requests20:38
ikoniaa council member must always be active in -ops to comply with nhandler suggestion of eslcation to a council member20:39
ikoniathings like that,20:39
ikoniait is your job to respond to an email request within 2 working days, etc20:39
IdleOneI understand the need for a general "this is how you should handle a situation" document so all the ops can be on the same page. What worries me is that if we starts creating these documents without covering every possible situation they will end up being used against ops who don't follow them to the letter.20:39
topyliikonia: please open an item for a council meeting, and discuss this. we are talking about nhandler's draft20:40
ikoniatopyli: no, I'm asking the council members (one of them) to take an action for this20:40
topylion what? being on call at all times on -ops?20:41
ikoniadocument the processes you follow for core issues,20:41
nhandlerIdleOne: Which is at this point something that has not happened and can be dealt with when and if the time comes. The document does address several issues that have come up in the past20:41
topylithe email responsiveness request is certainly valid and true20:41
ikoniatopyli: that's part of it, yes, a council member must be available in -ops at all times to fall in line with nhandler's documented and judged escalation path20:41
nhandlerikonia: Uh, where are you getting that from?20:42
ikonianhandler: you're document20:42
IdleOnenhandler: at this time I am not against such documentation so current and future ops have a base line to follow. I will reserve judgment on the semi-final version when it is available20:42
topyliikonia: the document suggests consulting other ops. if the issue persists, contact the council20:43
nhandlerikonia: Care to point me to the part where that is stated?20:43
ikoniayes, so there will need to be a council member available20:43
tsimpsonikonia: the document just says to contact a a member of the council, not that they need to be in -ops20:43
topyliit doesn't mean you should consult the council within 10 minutes of someone cursing on #ubuntu20:43
tsimpsonwe have our own council channel, and email20:43
ikoniatsimpson: ok, then a council member needs to be availabvle 24x7 for escalation20:43
ikoniaby irc/email/whatever20:43
ikoniatopyli: if there is an issue of persistant ban evasion, the path is to escalate to the council, the council must be available then to deeal with it20:44
tsimpsonwe need to be contactable 24/7, which we are20:44
ikoniathat's not documented20:44
tsimpsonneither is what you are saying20:44
ikoniatsimpson: that should go in your rules and behabvioru document I've requested20:44
ikoniatsimpson: it is, in nhandler's proposal20:45
tsimpsonno, it says that you should contact a council member, not contact them directly and await a response before doing anything else20:45
ikoniatsimpson: yes, so if it goes to another op, they can't resolve it, it needs to go to the council, then the council need to be available20:45
ikoniathat's the path the document says as a set of rules to be followed20:46
topyliexactly20:46
topyliwhich btw is how things are now20:46
ikoniaif you are documenting an escalation path, they need to be available, more so as you are using this document to judge operator decisions20:46
IdleOnethey are available, via irc and email20:46
ikoniatopyli: no it's not, the council are not available 24x7 to deal with eslcation,20:46
ikoniano they are not20:46
tsimpsonikonia: well fortunately we are only asking for comments on the document now, not implementing it20:47
ikoniatsimpson: you're getting comments back20:47
tsimpsonyes, I know20:47
tsimpsonthat's what I did mean there, sorry20:47
ikoniacool20:47
IdleOneikonia: the ability to contact the council is already implemented, but we can't not expect anybody to be available 24/7 to resolve an issue immediately20:48
IdleOnecan not*20:48
topyliwe need more than one comment though. nhandler, would you action this by sending the email?20:48
ikoniaIdleOne: yes you can if you are being judged on the escalation path20:48
nhandlertopyli: Yes20:48
ikoniaIdleOne: this document is to judge operators and assure they follow a procedure, if that procedure ends with passing the imediate issue over to the council, they need to be there to take it, which as irc is 24x7 they need to be hter20:48
topylinhandler: great. meeting moves on :)20:49
ikoniawhat's the next item ?20:49
nhandlerGiving me a formal [ACTION] ;)20:49
topyli:)20:49
tsimpson[action] nhandler to send the document to the IRC mailing list for discussion20:50
MootBotACTION received:  nhandler to send the document to the IRC mailing list for discussion20:50
IdleOneikonia: in a case like a persistent ban evader, if the council isn't around to act within 5 minutes we can continue to set bans/mute the problem user. I think you asking for anyone one of us (IRCC and ops team) to be here 24/7 to deal with an issue is unrealistic20:50
ikoniaIdleOne: I agree it's unrealistic and uncalled for, but I'm not writing a document that says here is what you do20:50
topylino new bugs on launchpad20:51
ikoniafinished any of the other outstanding items ?20:51
IdleOnethe document isn't a firm "this is how to do it" but more of a this is how you can handle a situation if unclear20:51
ikoniaIdleOne: I find the doucment insulting20:51
tsimpson[topic] Any other business20:51
ikoniaIdleOne: it IS a firm how you do it20:51
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business20:51
ikoniatsimpson: yup, finished any of the other outstanding items ?20:52
ikoniashell policy, long term problem user policy, etc ?20:52
ikoniayou know the stuff that was raised months ago ?20:52
ikoniaI've got quite a list here20:53
topylistatus is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCCouncil/TeamReports , hoping it's up to date :)20:53
IdleOneikonia: I don't mean to keep harping about it but I didn't read as a law that must be followed.20:53
ikoniaIdleOne: then you didn't read it correct, it is a document showing how operators should act and be judged on it20:53
ikoniatopyli: doesn't really explain that much20:54
IdleOneI will read it again.20:54
topylinobody is being judged btw20:54
ikoniatopyli: well, you are as you are saying operators are not following the guidelines so this document is to set out a clear policy that should be followed20:54
ikoniatherefore if you don't follow it, there is room for judgment20:54
topyliit is a howto20:55
ikoniareally, that wasn't what was said at the start, it was said people where not following the guidelines20:55
IdleOneikonia: what worries me is that we will end up being judged by the problem users and they will use such documents as base to argue/fight op decisions20:55
ikoniaIdleOne: I fully agree,20:55
IdleOneI am not worried about being judged by my peers20:55
tsimpsonIdleOne: that's why there is an appeal process with humans managing the process20:55
ikoniaok, so back to the meeting20:55
ikoniacan I again request the council members take an action to document there issue resolution process with timescales and commiemtns20:56
topyliwhich process is that? what we have done is we're making an effort to not have issues without an owner. i hope that will help20:57
ikoniatopyli: you must have a process to follow for dealing with issues and requests including commiments to respond by $X time etc ?20:58
ikoniaor is that process just common sense ?20:58
topylisince you don't want documentation, you must be trying to make a joke20:58
ikoniano, if you're pushing down documentation on how to behave, I want to see documented your behaviour and process commitments20:58
ikoniait's a two way street20:58
ikoniaI'm still waiting for my actions to be implimented or responded too, yet  you all seem to find time to write some more documents for the operators to follow20:59
tsimpsonwe already have that in the charter20:59
ikoniaso lets have it a two way street, lets document your processes and guidelines and commitments to be used20:59
ikoniatsimpson: no, the charter is vauge, it doesn't set out the processes or the time scale commitments20:59
ikoniatsimpson: the charter is as vague as the current operator guidlines that don't appear to be acceptable20:59
ikoniayou want to get specific, I want to see specifcs for your commitments, process and behaviour too21:00
tsimpsonwe are not the directly user-facing IRC ops21:00
ikoniaI don't feel the council has been living up to the charter, so I want to see it clearly agreed21:00
topyliwe are right now trying to craft a document in concert with the whole team. we are not "pushing down" anything. please try and work on basis of reality, even when ranting21:00
tsimpsonwhat part of the charter do you think we failed at?21:00
ikoniatsimpson: yes you are, and you are user facing to the IRC team (me)21:00
tsimpsonikonia: what part of the charter do you think we failed at?21:02
ikoniahello ?21:02
IdleOneyes21:02
IdleOneikonia: ikonia_ I think you are lagged.21:03
ikoniasorry my connection is having an issue21:03
ikoniaok, it seems to be back, apologies21:03
tsimpsonthe meeting is overrunning21:04
ikoniathen I'll drop it and take it to the list21:04
ikonia(I'm sure you can guess I'm not very happy with this)21:04
tsimpson[action] tsimpson to complete the fixed agenda items21:04
MootBotACTION received:  tsimpson to complete the fixed agenda items21:04
tsimpson#endmeeting21:05
MootBotMeeting finished at 15:05.21:05
topyliif the council is not fulfilling the charter, that's important. ikonia, please do bring it up21:05
IdleOnethanks for the meeting.21:05
ikoniatopyli: I've brought it up before21:05
ikoniaI don't see change21:05
ikoniaI see the same loop21:05
topylii see abstract unhappiness, with no fixable issues or suggestions how to improve. might be a language issue though, mine's not perfect21:07
ikoniatopyli: it's not, it's just total lack of faith with what the council are doing21:07
ikoniatopyli: I'll raise it for the next meeting21:07
topyligood, thanks21:07

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