=== irvye is now known as irv [15:39] hi AutoStatic :) [15:39] Hello ScottL [15:40] abogani, my comments yesterday were not directed at your work, i want you to understand that [15:41] abogani, they are more derived from frustration of not being able to include a kernel that we know works and works well with -rt [15:41] abogani, of course some of the current issues might be derived by a confluence of activities including the new firewire stack and the cgroups issues [15:42] ailo, how is your work on -controls moving along? [15:42] astraljava, are you getting close to helping with backporting? i think in a week i'll be in full swing for it :) [15:43] morning paultag :) [15:43] morning ScottL :) [15:44] ScottL: How goes, my friend? [15:44] * abogani waves all [15:45] heyya ab [15:45] persia, still no movement on the new kernel documentation for getting -lowlatency into natty :( [15:45] abogani * [15:45] ScottL: damn, still? [15:45] paultag, i'm doing well, taking a week of vacation and hoping to get some ubuntu studio development done :) [15:45] ScottL: :) [15:46] ScottL: I accept any types of comments. :-) [15:46] paultag, yes, i'm getting a little frustrated with it myself and worried that the -lowlatency will not make it into natty :( [15:46] it's getting really late [15:46] ScottL: is anyone on the kernel team engaged with it? [15:47] abogani, i know you readily receive any comments :) [15:47] abogani, part of my frustration derives from the combination of having to align kernels with desktop and then not having -lowlatency in the repos [15:48] abogani, the second is from new and unexpected problems, but that is something we can work through and can't really be expected to be resolved before we experience them [15:48] paultag, yes, but i forget his name and can't find the blueprint currently, although i have it bookmarked _somewhere_ [15:48] ScottL: humm [15:49] paultag, apparently it's andy whitecraft [15:50] whitcroft [15:50] ah [15:50] the bug is: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-version-and-flavours [15:51] err, not bug but blueprint [15:52] I suspect that JFo and diwic are also informed about that. [15:52] ScottL: just had a talk in another channel about it abogani [15:52] * JFo reads back [15:52] wow, that was an odd ping [15:53] paultag, the is the part: [apw] document how to build a new derivative flavour/branch:TODO [15:53] this provides a vector for us to get -lowlatency into the repos so it can ship on the ubuntu studio disc [15:53] ScottL: looks like the kerenel work is on us, not the kernel tea [15:53] team * [15:54] paultag, yes, but the kernel team was to provide documentation framework to do so that was acceptable with the team [15:54] * JFo takes a look at the blueprint [15:54] sorry to rag on you there JFo [15:55] paultag, no sweat [15:55] :) [15:55] :) [15:55] JFo, paultag: thank you both for taking time to help work with this :D i appreciate it [15:55] no problem [15:56] like I told paultag, I only wish I could help you guys more [15:56] ScottL: no problem, I'm in here for a reason :) [15:56] true that. [15:57] * JFo has apw here nearby. I will chat with him between meetings to see what the timeline looks like for that documentation [15:57] given the enormous amount of work we are in the middle of anything is possible [15:57] JFo: you're a rockstar, my man. Are you in TX? [15:57] paultag, I am in texas... the rockstar bit is in question though ;-) [15:58] JFo: I've seen those videos [15:58] hahahaha [15:58] my sincere apologies :) [15:58] :P [15:58] hahaha [15:59] ScottL, I suspect the documentation may have more to do with where to put the derivative in the archives etc. but I will get a full description. [16:01] JFo, i'm also in texas, montgomery actually which is to the west of conroe or northwest of houston [16:01] JFo: in theory applying the patch should be the easy part. In theory. [16:02] JFo, re: documentation, that sounds like what i expected from my conversations with persia, it wasn't a HOWTO but more of "this is the form that we would like to see it" [16:03] paultag, my understanding from abogani is that the -lowlatency kernel doesn't require a patch [16:03] paultag, not from what I have seen :-/. The patch is huge, but it is also very version specific. There is an effort to have all of the rt bits in each kernel in, hopefully, 5 releases or so [16:03] but I think upstream is being optimistic [16:04] paultag, JFo: i don't think we are trying to get the -rt kernel into the repositories, i think we only focusing on the -lowlatency currently [16:04] right [16:04] paultag, JFo: therefore i believe there shouldn't be a patch required [16:04] really? [16:05] really [16:05] but when I inquired at plumber's thinking I could help somehow, I was told that the lowlatency had a similarly invasive patching scheme [16:05] so it's lieterally just a build flag change? [16:05] literally * [16:05] hmmm [16:05] JFo: I thought so too [16:06] * JFo is chatting about it in the team [16:06] one sec... [16:06] paultag, that is my understanding from abogani, i.e. "just a build flag change" [16:06] damn, cool. [16:08] so there are config changes needed [16:08] ScottL: so, what needs to happen to get -lowlatency in the repo ? [16:08] only [16:08] and several frequency modifications [16:08] ScottL: I must go. Please let me know any news. [16:08] JFo: but that's a simle config delta against stock, right? [16:08] abogani: o/ [16:08] laterx [16:08] paultag, seems to be [16:08] humm [16:08] we are still discussing [16:09] sure, JFo. I'm going to run to meet up with some friends for lunch. I'll read back later [16:09] JFo: thanks so much for looking into it, man [16:09] JFo: I owe you a beer, for sure [16:09] my pleasure [16:09] cheers, all! [16:12] holstein, andy whitcroft was working on documentation for getting kernel derivatives/variants into the repos, but he hasn't completed it yet [16:12] holstein, but it might be that there was a significant misunderstanding on the request [16:12] holstein, it appears that the kernel team expected ubuntu studio to require a significant and invasive patch [16:13] holstein, abogani asserts that only compile time flags needs to be set [16:13] holstein, hopefully this streamlines the entire process :) [16:14] again, thank you paultag and JFo , you guys rock! (scottl gives $0.05 to the jono licensing fund) [16:14] lol [16:15] my pleasure ScottL [16:21] ScottL: this is the kind of disconnect that alio and i have been discussing [16:22] im glad to see some discussion and movement :) [16:22] the current generic kernel is natty is not viable for our needs [16:22] holstein, yes, i hope this is the break that gets it moving :) [16:25] holstein, i haven't seen raony since the other night, i hope he comes back and at least tells us why he was frustrated with ubuntu studio [16:25] we can't address what we don't know if frustrating people :( [16:26] holstein, you don't perhaps know his ubuntu forums name or have an email address, i'd happily pursue him and talk directly to get his knowledge or to secure his help [16:27] raony = alio? [16:28] i think folks are mis-informed about the kernel [16:28] and i can understand why [16:29] to be honest, i think it was interepid or jaunty? [16:29] when US did not have an RT kernel installed by default [16:29] and i was still learning, and not coming on the IRC [16:29] i did not undertand how to install the RT kernel from the repo even [16:30] or what that meant [16:30] SO i just used 64studio for a while [16:30] im glad i came back to US [16:31] but i imagine some of the frustration wanting an out of the box awesome audio solution [16:31] and not knowing what is going on with the generic kernel to be more RT friendly [16:31] AND its not like you can get a LIVE CD of US and see how the kernel works with JACK and your hardware [16:33] ok, so the amount of items that need to be changed depends on what you want to get out of your kernel... [16:33] it can be as simple as one flag and as complex as you want it [16:33] apparently :) [16:33] holstein, i'm talking about raonyguimaraes, i don't think that's ailo as well (but i could be wrong) [16:35] ScottL: hmmm, i'll see if i can figure out who that is [16:38] ailo = ailo [16:40] ScottL: I'm not doing anything on the Ubuntucontrols at the moment, but I sketched out a script that is supposed to do all of what is proposed here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ControlsRedesign [16:40] I'm still waiting to hear about firewire, how that is set up. [16:41] AI lo [16:41] i was wondering why auto complete wasnt happening [16:42] i thought you were out ;) [16:42] ailo: you need something from me for that? [16:43] holstein: doesn't need to be you, but if you have time.. [16:43] i should have time today [16:43] if i get the rig setup [16:43] ill ping you [16:43] Just a step by step on how to get firewire working on Natty. [16:43] and if you're here, we can knock that out [16:44] ailo: yeah, i want to look at all the steps with you [16:44] that i usually do [16:44] and try to do the shortest route that works [16:46] Should be simple enough. I'm guessing you need to be in audio group and add the udev rules file. You have the link? [16:46] http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/ffado.git;a=blob_plain;f=debian/60-ffado.rules [16:46] But, please try without the udev rules first, just in case they aren't needed. I really have no idea how that works. [16:47] ScottL, sounds like apw had a chat with persia at some point concerning the documentation. [16:50] it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone) [16:50] so I don't have a good answer for when you can expect the docs I am afraid. :-/ [16:55] ailo: i want to help here [16:55] ailo: i know how to code and should be easy enough [16:55] ailo: but I use Qt, (PyQt) [16:56] falktx: You mean Ubuntustudiocontrols? By all means, if you like. It would be a bit sweaty for me. [16:56] falktx: will it require extra libs? [16:56] ailo: the mockup looks nice, and fairly easy to implement [16:56] ailo: just python-qt4 [16:57] afaik, comes pre-installed [16:57] i would add a tab for config audio plugins paths [16:57] and remove the wireless thing [16:58] JFo, ah, okay. thanks for the update :) [16:58] Yfalktx: es, and I dont' know about System Scan either. [16:58] falktx, ailo: which mockup? [16:58] ScottL: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1333955/USC.pdf [16:59] system scan seems like a nice feature for me [16:59] falktx, ailo: that's rlameiro's before we really decided on what needed to be in -controls [16:59] not saying don't use it, just don't feel like that's THE form it needs to be in or ALL that needs to be included [16:59] ScottL: so you know exactly what is needed ? [17:00] ScottL, no problem [17:00] falktx, heh, that's a really good question! not really, we've bounced ideas back and forth [17:00] ScottL: I'm sure nothing unnecessary will end up there.. [17:00] It could help if I had a list of stuff that needs configure [17:00] let me write down now the ideas [17:01] 1 - system-scan [17:01] falktx: We're just been working on the firewire bit, me and holstein. [17:01] 2 - wine setup (wineasio, wine-rt, etc) [17:01] falktx, we talked about the items under ubuntustudio-controls: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010May16 [17:02] ailo: nice [17:02] ScottL: 2010may16 ?? [17:03] falktx, yes, rlameiro started but got hung up on something trying to update -controls [17:03] * ScottL acknowledges ubuntu studio really, really needs some developers :( [17:03] ScottL: i know my plans for kxstudio [17:04] ScottL: i'll start to make the welcome/config tools soon, so... [17:04] hi quadrispro :) [17:04] ubuntustudio-controls: [17:05] he had considered adding a way to enable a standard ubuntustudio-dev PPA for -rt kenerl [17:05] also adding the user to audio group (might not be needed anymore) [17:05] also enabling raw1394 (might not be needed anymore) [17:05] ScottL: well, i think it is [17:05] Me too [17:05] At least audio group [17:05] err [17:06] ScottL: we need someone who understand this more than we do [17:06] also adding a quick and consolidated way to add: flash, mp3 codec, et al restricted formats commonly used [17:06] falktx: no, it hasn't changed [17:06] falktx: except for the new firewire stack [17:07] ailo: i read about it, it seems it can access firewire without the need of a udev rule, right? [17:07] falktx, ailo: if we view -controls in the sense of someone coming from vanilla ubuntu, then i think adding user to audio group is still a necessity [17:07] falktx: rt will not work on the generic kernel, but on Aboganis, it's just like before [17:07] ScottL: how can jack work in realtime if an user is not in audio group?? [17:08] falktx: ScottL: We still need audio group. That hasn't changed [17:09] I think what ScottL is referring to is how jack may use realtime in the future, because of how kernels are configured. [17:09] But that is not a problem yet. Not on Aboganis kernel [17:10] falktx, exactly! but if one installs vanilla ubuntu and then adds studio packages by hand, the user will not be in the audio group automatically [17:10] falktx, -controls will let them do this from a unified location [17:10] oh, wait... [17:11] * falktx still thinks he is in 2010! [17:11] lol [17:12] ailo, i believe the audio group is installs automatically, just if one installs vanilla ubuntu and then installs studio packages then the use needs to be added to it [17:12] ScottL: Yes. [17:12] ScottL: Wait, err [17:13] ScottL: I'll work on a mockup today [17:13] yep [17:13] btw, is it me, or many packages just fail to build on natty? [17:13] I got so many PPA build fails for natty, while maverick and lucid are fine... [17:14] ScottL: I don't know if the audio group is added automatically. But user needs to put itself manually to the group. [17:14] ailo: it only happens when installling US from ISO [17:15] in all other cases, user has to do it manually [17:15] falktx: A simple script can check that, right. So adding that to the -controls is not so hard. [17:16] yep [17:16] ehya guys [17:16] happy new year! [17:16] hey quadrispro [17:16] ailo, from my experience before with lucid and maverick and installing vanilla ubuntu, the audio group was there already, this might have changed for natty of course [17:16] hi quadrispro [17:17] falktx, I remember we were taking a look at festige, isn't it? [17:17] ScottL, have you got my mail? [17:17] ScottL: I'm sure it hasn't changed then. I usually install from vanilla. [17:18] ScottL: the audio groups is there, but the user needs to add itself to it [17:18] quadrispro: yes, I got lazy... [17:18] quadrispro: i need to update festige again, I learned some new stuff I would like to implement there... [17:19] ailo: btw, here's a screen of my current work -> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/scr100.jpg [17:20] ailo: it's a GUI for ladish (and jack patchbay), uses pyqt4 [17:20] falktx: Looks nice. [17:20] falktx, and it would be good to get in touch with fst's mainstream developer [17:20] quadrispro: he got angry at me... [17:20] falktx, ?? [17:21] quadrispro: I made a patch for ladi lv1 support, then he went mad [17:21] ah! ladi [17:21] quadrispro: he said kinda 'ladish sucks' [17:21] lol [17:22] quadrispro: festige uses that custom fst (with my own patches), so it's not a very good idea to talk to the original author... [17:22] I don't know, I haven't looked again, I know that it would take the place of lash [17:22] quadrispro: I'll soon add support for 'ghostess' too, so that I can have dssi-vst with jack-midi [17:22] * falktx has lots of stuff to do [17:22] quadrispro, i'm not sure, when did you sent it? [17:23] falktx, eh, ok, but I've been thinking to import the original fst source into debian first [17:24] ScottL, mmmh.. gmail says 12/31/10 (11 days ago) [17:24] quadrispro, did you mean in response to my email? if so, then yes i got it, sorry for not responding [17:24] quadrispro: fst has a branch with jack-session support, so you might wanna use that [17:24] oh yes, 12/31 [17:24] i kept meaning to respond :( sorry about that [17:25] falktx, so I'll try to mail with fst's author before working on festige [17:25] ScottL, no worries! :) [17:25] falktx, I've seen, but... does it work? [17:25] really? [17:25] quadrispro: i haven't tried yet [17:25] I remember that upstream seem'd not very active [17:25] quadrispro: but my version does work with ladish pretty well [17:26] quadrispro: yeah, there are no recent commits [17:26] quadrispro: btw, I packaged ladish for ubuntu [17:26] falktx, the bad news is: Debian does not have ladish :) [17:26] (for now) [17:26] quadrispro: i sent it to revu, but no one commented [17:26] falktx, well, I'll take a look [17:26] * falktx remembers why he uses PPAs so much [17:27] falktx lol, I see :) [17:27] quadrispro: you're free to use that package for debian [17:27] falktx, there was a discussion in pkg-multimedia ML about "do we want ladish or not?" [17:27] quadrispro: just note that final v0.3 has been released [17:28] quadrispro: ladish is the best session handler that ever existed for linux, sadly not everyone sees that [17:28] ladish does much more than what jack-session does [17:29] falktx, well, please turn up on pkg-multimedia and say: "Ehy guys! Ladish rocks and my package is ready for reviewing" [17:30] quadrispro: hm, but I'll leave soon [17:30] I hate not having internet at home [17:30] falktx, tomorrow or later, no worries [17:32] persia, ehy man! how are you? [17:55] quadrispro, i encouraged falktx to try to push ladish to debian instead of REVU :/ [17:55] debian multimedia team is so much more aggressive and pervasive to get packages in [17:55] at least for audio packages (i have little to no experience with non-audio packages) [18:04] quadrispro, also i haven't used ladish, but my limited experience with jack-session is disappointing [18:04] i don't know if i should expect more from jack-session in the future, but i believe ladish already delivers much of what users desire [18:08] falktx, did you see my email about debian multimedia team and audio menu? [18:08] falktx, i doubt they will get anything fixed before natty and since we already have a hack for ubuntustudio-menu [18:09] falktx, perhaps we should go whole hog and do something like avlinux or dreamstudio (or even kxstudio) and fix the menu to help users [18:09] im for that for 12.04 for sure [18:10] if the changes dont trickle down [18:10] by then [18:20] TheMuso, how's the work on unity accessibility going along? [18:31] ScottL: Its coming along a little quicker now that we have some more people helping out. Its too much for one person. :) [18:33] TheMuso, oh, i bet it was/is, but i'm glad you have help [18:33] TheMuso, i'm frightfully ignorant about accessibility, are you able to use anything from gnome? [18:35] [18:36] it also seems that the "sigterm" restart during installation was an alternate installation problem which has since been resolved :) [18:36] now i can finish up the gnome-session as default xsession issue [18:36] BUT now it also seems that the tasksel options are borked :( [18:37] i'll start on that after the xsession issue [18:38] ScottL: Just my opinion, but seems like there's no need for so many tasksels. [18:39] ailo, there shouldn't be so many ;) just five [18:39] 1. graphics [18:39] 2. video [18:39] 3. audio recording [18:39] 4. tone generation [18:39] 5. plugins [18:39] although i can't imagine a use case were someone selected either audio recording or tone generation and _wouldn't_ want the plugins [18:40] ScottL: That's what I thought too. [18:40] Usually one selects the whole thing for testing, or to save time [18:40] just for reference: audio recording would be recording actual instruments and/or bands [18:40] tone generation would include synths and sequencers [18:40] ailo, :) [18:41] tone generation seems like an odd term, too. [18:42] I would go with instruments, normally, but sequencers are included in that [18:42] ScottL: Yes, I use GNOME full time. [18:44] ailo, the nomenclature can be updated if we had a better suggestion ;) [18:44] but persia helped me with it and that was the best we could come up with at the time [18:48] ScottL: Either a big all-in-one, or a ubuntustudio showcase tasksel, I think. [18:49] But, not so important, maybe [18:49] Most people do whatever they want, anyway [18:49] When installing [18:49] By all-in-one, one for audio, one for video, one for graphics [18:52] ailo, i may be wrong, but i think a large majority of users tends to focus on either recording audio (from instruments) or sequencers/synths [18:53] that's not to say that overlap doesn't exist, i'm sure it does [18:53] ScottL: you say you need developers, eh? [18:53] but this will let the users who just do one or other to control which applications are installed better and unclutter the menu [18:53] paultag, aye! [18:54] ScottL: I have the feeling a lot has to do with the menu, in a way [18:54] ScottL: well, I'm done with a CS major at my Uni, and love to code. Just point me where [18:54] ScottL: Yeah, things should clear up in a few days. [18:56] paultag, two things that effect ubuntu studio fairly drastically, although it's only a little coding but more troubleshooting i believe [18:57] paultag, the first is we need to make sure that the gnome-session is chosen as the default xsession instead of unity [18:57] paultag, i think this; http://paste.ubuntu.com/548058/ [18:57] should take care of it [18:58] paultag, which should be for: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio/annotate/head%3A/debian/postinst [18:58] paultag, i got the additional code from didirock and haven't built it yet or tested it yet [18:59] i've been having trouble getting a natty install lately [18:59] paultag, so getting that resolved would be awesome [18:59] paultag, the second thing is that it appears the tasksel is borked during ubuntu studio install [18:59] paultag, this might need to be addressed with cjwatson after making sure the meta packages are correct [19:00] ScottL: mmhum [19:00] paultag, if these are really what you are looking for i'm sure we could find something else :) [19:00] ScottL: I'm here to help, man. any work for U-S us work I'll do [19:02] ScottL: RE default xsession, that's easy enough, should just be a default file change. I think I had to do something similar at some point [19:03] that postinst looks good [19:04] paultag, right now i'm installing a ubuntu studio natty install and hope to build it locally and test it, i hope to have it by this evening [19:04] ScottL: rock on [19:04] let me know how it goes [19:04] but unfortunately i'm home on vacation with a wife and two kids as well, it's not conducive to getting stuff done, ya know? [19:05] ScottL: did JF-o get back to you about the kernel stuff? [19:05] ScottL: for sure, man. for sure. [19:07] JFo, he said that other critical items were holding the process up and some of the deadlines had been pushed back [19:08] OK [19:08] lol, sorry JFo , that was for paultag [19:08] better then we're not doing anything :) [19:26] ScottL: Seems like firewire works on Natty, by just adding user to audio group. [19:27] holstein was just testing it [19:28] ailo, SOOPER SWEET! [19:28] We'll need to confirm, but as it seems now, falktx will have one less task to add to the -control app [19:28] wow, that's really a relief if true :) [19:29] ScottL, :-) no problem [19:32] ScottL: any reason why i shouldnt install the meta-packages in natty? [19:32] the -audio and -audio-plugins ? [19:34] i'll go ahead and do it [19:35] whats the worst that can happen ;) [19:35] im going to try doing some actual work in there later if i can [19:35] see how the -lowlatency kernel is in action [19:35] holstein: I've installed them all. No problems here [20:21] paultag, holstein ailo: here is a place for proposed improvements: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Proposed%20Improvements [20:22] i added all that i could think of, please add more if you think of something :) [20:22] i'll send falktx the link with thelonius in another channel ;) [20:22] looks great ScottL [20:23] ScottL: hits on the big stuff for sure [20:24] paultag, ail and falktx have had conversations about ubuntustudio-controls, which probably is the best oppurtunity for coding [20:24] aye [20:27] eh, i forgot to the the menu update on their as well [20:31] Considering how firewire seems to work well, and that -lowlatency is low maintenance, yet so good. Only real thing that bothers me is whether the gnome Desktop will be fully functional [20:31] ailo, i believe it should be from what i've read/heard [20:31] apparently ubuntu is committed to offering it as an alternate to unity [20:31] Sounds good. [20:32] so hopefully the update to ubuntustudio-setting i'm trying to get done should cause the gnome-classic to be the default xsession then [20:33] of course, my install of ubuntu studio natty has bombed out again ::angry:: [20:33] I've had some bootup problems, but the second try usually works [20:34] just as a note [20:34] im in unity [20:34] for my tests [20:35] ScottL: No one is looking into the Ubuntu Theme GTK stuff, then? [20:36] As I said before, I could do that, but it may take a while to get into it. Been doing other things for now. [20:37] holstein: unity doesnt seem all that complete, right. The main menu doesn't work for me. [20:38] something important up there is still on the way [20:38] i just go in unity and say 'hey, that looks cool' [20:39] and start everything from the terminal ;) [20:57] updated to add -menu improvements and examples: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/ReleasePlanning#Proposed%20Improvements [20:57] ailo, correct, no one is looking at that as well [20:58] i'll add that to the improvements webpage as well [20:58] ailo and holstein, if you start ubuntu (or ubuntu studio) as soon as you pick your name you can change the session to gnome-classic from a pick menu [20:59] i tried both [20:59] i wanted to see how things looked in unity [20:59] looks fine [21:00] the compiz requirement is not great though [21:00] for us [21:04] holstein, i find the whole framework sort of kid-ish and everything seems too large [21:04] reminds me of some touch face interface for the unwashed masses [21:04] or how yahoo use to be the 'internet' for the masses [21:04] and kinda how facebook is 'the internet' for the new unwashed masses [21:04] i really warmed up to it when i started running it [21:04] ymmv [21:04] i thought i would hate it for those reasons [21:05] its not done yet though... [21:05] couldnt get lamer or cooler [21:25]