ScottLailo, would you be able to get all the stuff you learned onto a wiki page?00:00
ailoScottL: Well, about ffado, it seems we don't need to know the udev stuff anymore, other than that the rules point to group "audio". In a way, that is a universal problem now on Natty, that one needs to belong to that group.00:03
ailoIn order to get access to the device00:04
ailoFor Ubuntustudio, it's all about belonging to the audio group, then.00:05
ailoAs long as we are on the -lowlatency kernel things are simple. On -rt we might need to adjust rtirtq script to work with firewire.00:10
ScottLailo, i was just thinking that it would be nice to know what it took for firewire to work, especially six months or a year from now and people don't remember or aren't around anymore00:15
ailoSadly, it is Maverick that seems to need the most tweaking. The only problem with firewire could be that the device is not included in the udev rules. 00:16
ailoI mean on Natty, the only problem would be that00:16
ailoWhich, I cannot tell by just looking at the rules. I would think all ffado supported devices are listed there00:17
ailoScottL: For Natty it would become a short wiki page. Install Alessio's kernel, become member of audio group, reboot..00:18
ailoFor realtime we need the kernel. For access to firewire, belonging to audio group, I don't know.00:20
holsteinailo: cool00:31
holsteinthat makes sense00:31
holsteinScottL: ailo and I were queried today while i went a step and a time00:31
holsteini tried sudo qjackctl first with the generic kernel and my firewire device with no luck00:32
holsteini booted the lowlatency kernel and it worked as sudo00:32
holsteinall i did permission-wise was add myself to the audio group00:33
ScottLholstein, i was asking alio if someone can document what it took to get firewire working so if we have to come back later then we know what should be going on00:33
holsteinBUT, we're going to try and find someone to verify00:33
holsteinand we both had an idea for a verifier00:34
holsteinScottL: i say, after one other person has the same results00:34
holsteinone or more of course*00:34
holsteinwith a different firewire device than what i have00:34
holsteinwe'll document it00:34
holsteinScottL: maybe the kernel stuff gets sorted00:34
holsteinand natty can have abogani 's -lowlatency kernel00:35
ScottLholstein, it looks like other issues are standing in the way of getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repos at this time :(00:35
holsteinand in the US-controls, it could be 'click here to add your user to the audio group for firewire00:36
ScottLso i am again doubting if we'll see it for natty00:36
holsteinScottL: we need that kernel00:36
ScottLholstein, i don't doubt it will be kept out forever, my impression is that there were some other, unrelated issues at hand that was causing several things to be delayed00:36
holsteinif its testing, we got a nice pool of users on it00:37
ailoholstein: ScottL: I feel satisfied after learning about the udev rules, since it explains how the user gets access to the firewire cards.00:37
ailoI'm actually editing a wiki page now, but only concerning Ubuntu 11.0400:38
holsteinScottL: as long as we can put something somewhere about how to add that PPA00:38
holsteinsomewhere in the istallation00:38
holsteinScottL: would i join -motu ?00:39
holsteinand ask?00:40
holsteinor have you already got the axe on it ?00:40
ScottLholstein, i don't think it's testing for anything we are doing, i got the impression it was higher order stuff that effected ubuntu at large00:44
ScottLholstein, BUT you can ask JFo about it, he's the one who mentioned it00:45
ScottLlooking at backscroll, JFo said, "it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone)"00:46
holsteini'll ask00:47
holsteinbecause we need that kernel00:47
holsteinif we are going to compete00:47
holsteinwe have the only audio/multimedia distro that doesnt have a RT kernel00:48
holsteini used to not mind much when we had one in the repo00:48
holsteinand the generic one is getting so much better all the time00:48
holsteinBUT its not there00:48
holsteinwe just cant support a large percentage of professionals00:49
holsteinout of the box, OR with a simple install00:49
holsteinAND the -lowlatency kernel + natty seems very nice so far00:49
holsteinfor me00:49
holsteingreat combo for FW00:49
holsteinthat installed by default, and i dont think anyone could complain legitamately00:51
ScottLi feel very strongly about supporting firewire because i believe very many people are using laptops with ubuntu studio00:53
ailoholstein: I agree. The lowlatency kernel is the perfect replacement for the generic kernel00:53
holsteinif not replacement00:54
holsteinits perfect in this time00:54
ailoIt's a must to get audio working at all00:54
holsteinwhile the generic one is evolving00:54
holsteini mean, if this was a couple years ago00:54
holsteini probably wouldnt even understand how to add a PPA00:55
holsteinor what that means00:55
holstein'is it a security risk?'00:55
holsteini think its a bad call00:55
holsteinespecially since its a real 'gotcha' after you've installed it, plugged the firewire device in, and nothing happens00:56
ScottLnot to knock what you are saying, but the -generic kernel does me good for my pci delta44 ;)01:11
holsteinbut, my device doesnt work at all01:13
holsteinnot even poorly01:13
holsteinor at a high-latency01:13
holsteinwont start01:13
ailoScottL: But you don't get realtime privilege01:13
ailoYou can see it in the jack log01:13
holsteinand im not trying to say 'wah, my device dont work'01:13
holsteini know what to do, but lots of folk dont01:14
holsteinthey'll just remove ubuntustudio with a bad taste in their mouth01:14
ScottLailo, when i run qjackctl it has "RT" flashing though01:15
holsteinScottL: check in the messages though01:15
ScottLi will01:15
holsteini had a message 'cannot get RT privs'01:15
ScottLbut i also get a message to choose to enable rt privelages when jackd is installed01:16
holsteini forget the exact message01:16
ScottLi'll check later tonight01:16
holsteinin the -lowlatency kernel01:16
ScottLi finally upgraded my music box to the dual core machine :)01:16
holsteinusing the alsa driver, not firewire01:16
ScottLwell, upgrading is the right word01:16
holsteini had that message about not getting RT privs01:17
holsteinbefore adding my user to the audio group01:17
holsteinJACK was running though01:17
holsteinand seemed OK01:17
ScottLholstein, did you start with vanilla ubuntu and add packages?01:17
ScottLi started with ubuntu studio disc01:17
ScottLwell, "installed" not started01:17
holsteinScottL: i had only added jackd at that poing01:17
holsteinits that test laptop i set up a few weeks ago01:18
ScottLfor my install i believe i will already be part of the audio group and i really believe i'm running jack with realtime privs01:18
ScottLbut i'll check later tonight as i said01:18
holsteinScottL: does ubuntustudio add the user to the audio group ?01:18
holsteinby default?01:18
* ScottL is doing the final update to packages after install01:18
ailoScottL: It would be impossible, becuase of cgroups01:18
ScottLholstein, yes, i believe it does01:18
ScottLailo, this is lucid, not natty01:19
ailoOk, sorry :)01:19
ScottLi keep the LTS on my studio box01:19
ScottLhehe, my bad too, didn't mention this before01:19
holsteinScottL: w00t, that great news on the box :)01:19
ScottLquestion: if i had installed the 32 bit version on the dual core machine, would it recognize more that 3 gigs of memory?01:20
ScottLi'm guessing that it wouldn't01:21
ScottLanother question: if there any benefit (other than memory) to running a 64 bit install?  any cons to running 64 bit?01:21
holsteinScottL: you need a PAE kernel01:23
holsteinif the motherboard supports PAE01:23
holsteincheck out..01:24
holsteinnice explaination of the PAE kernel used in that distro01:24
holsteinwhich, i kinda want to try now01:24
holsteini was reading about it earlier today01:24
holsteinScottL: i cant run one thing i want to run01:25
holsteinlightscribe labeler01:25
holsteinin 64bit01:25
holsteinother than that, i havent had any problems01:25
holsteincant say ive seen any drastic benifits either01:26
ailoScottL: One benefit is that build times are a bit faster. Some thing just seem faster.01:26
ScottLmy understanding is that wine-asio doesn't work in 64 bit, but that was also a year ago01:26
ScottLprobably falktx has an idea about that as well01:26
holsteinfalk is up on the 64bit support01:26
ScottLailo, that is good because i'll be doing some backports soon :)01:27
ailoholstein: You mean, PAE for 32 bit systems, right?01:27
holsteinailo: yup01:27
holsteinive used one01:27
ailoTo get more memory access01:27
holsteinnot really for that purpose01:27
holsteini just got one01:27
holsteinwith an ubuntu install01:28
holsteinnot sure why01:28
ailoholstein: I think the only benefit of PAE is that it supports more than 4 GB of ram01:28
ailoFor 32 bit systems01:28
ailoI think it has to do with adress names. On a 32 bit processor, you have a limit on how many combinations of adresses you can have.01:30
holsteinive never needed to try it 01:30
holsteinbut ive heard it works01:30
ailoSo, on the PAE it uses some other way of getting adresses, probably by splitting up the adress into two 32bit parts, or something01:30
ailoOk, I added my first ever wiki page on Ubuntu's community documentation. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Firewire Audio on Ubuntu 11.04 Natty01:44
ailohmm, the link is a bit short01:44
holsteinnice, we should link to that...01:44
ScottLailo, holstein:  my understanding is that the -rt kernel was needed to avoid irq conflicts with firewire devices, can this be addressed with the -lowlatency kernel as well?01:47
holsteinScottL: -lowlatency is the one i was using01:48
holsteinin my tests01:48
holsteinin natty01:48
ailoScottL: I don't know if perhaps the new stack has changed that somehow. I suppose, judging on how well it seems to run for holstein, and Asmo, that won't be needed anymore?01:50
ScottLoh, that would be awesome too :)01:51
ailoholstein: ScottL: I too was under the impression that only -rt gave decent performance in the past.01:51
ailoMaybe I should not have had spaces in my wiki page name?01:52
holsteinailo: so far that has been my experience01:52
holsteini was very impressed when i got down to 1.6ms latency today01:52
holsteinwith the -lowlatency kernel01:53
ailoI'm trying to find if I can move the page. Anyone done that?01:53
holsteinailo: the wiki page?01:53
holsteincant move it01:53
holsteinyou'll have to make another01:53
holsteinand copy01:53
ailoOk. Will do.01:53
holsteindont know who can move them01:53
holsteinnone of us i bet01:54
ailoSo we can't delete our own pages either?01:56
holsteinnot sure01:57
ailoI'm not able to now, at least01:57
ailoI did a renaming, that I didn't like :(01:58
ailoHow about emptying a page, and redirecting?01:59
holsteindo we have a firewire one?01:59
holsteinfor ubuntustudio?01:59
holsteinwe could add to the ubuntustudio preperation one01:59
ailoOk, so this is the name of the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirewireNatty02:02
holsteinailo: maybe it should be audio named?02:03
holsteinnot sure02:03
holsteinis this for all firewire devices?02:04
ailoI'm putting it in audio category now.02:04
ailoI'm explaining the firewire device support at the bottom of the page a bit.02:04
holsteini like it02:05
ailoholstein: So, this is just reference for an unreleased distro, on our progress. If we want to save it for Ubuntustudio, we could put a link somewhere maybe?02:06
* abogani waves all07:32
ScottLmorning abogani , ailo , astraljava , AutoStatic , paultag , persia  :)13:24
ailoGood afternoon ScottL!13:24
AutoStaticHello ScottL13:27
aboganihi all!13:33
aboganiScottL: Do we have some news?13:33
ScottLabogani, about the -lowlatency kernel?  not very good news for the moment13:36
aboganiScottL: :-(13:36
ScottLabogani, JFo said, "it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone)"13:37
ScottLabogani,  this isn't to say that it will not happen, just not quite yet13:37
aboganiScottL: So they are quite busy.13:38
ScottLabogani, and i think the UKT was a bit shocked to learn that the -lowlatency kernel requires compile time flag changes, hopefully that facilitates the process :)13:38
ScottLabogani,  requires compile time flag changes only       i will state it as such from now on13:39
ScottLabogani, but hopefully this knowledge facilitates the process considerably :)13:39
ScottLabogani, and ailo, asmo, and holstein have all had extremely favourable comments about the -lowlatency kernel and firewire :-)13:40
ScottLabogani, so we will definitely keep pushing them to get it into the repositories, even if it is delayed until natty+1 (hopefully it doesn't take that long however)13:41
aboganiScottL: Good.13:41
ailoScottL: What does natty+1 mean?13:42
ailoAfter final release?13:43
aboganiailo: No it means 11.1013:46
ailook, so UbuntuStudio Natty will most probably need to include the ppa, then.13:47
ScottLabogani, my understanding was that the -rt kernel was required for firewire users avoid irq conflicts13:54
ScottLabogani, does the -lowlatency kernel provide the same benefit?13:54
ailoIsn't that done using the rtirq script together with the -rt kernel?13:55
aboganiScottL: The -rt/-realtime kernel don't avoid irqs conflicts: It  let us how prioritize irqs execution. As ailo pinpointed rtirq do exactly that job.14:02
aboganiit let use decide how prioritize14:03
ScottLabogani, i'm frightfully ignorant about firewire and irq conflicts, however i trust your knowledge which is why i ask you14:05
ScottLabogani, okay, so if a user is experiencing an irq conflict and they are using the -lowlatency kernel, can they still use rtirq to fix it?14:05
ailoScottL: From what I understand the rtirq script only works with the realtime patch.14:09
aboganiSeems to me that ailo is very well informed. :-)14:13
AutoStaticThat's right, rtirq only works with kernels that have the realtime patch14:19
ailoI don't know so much about the danger of irq conflicts, but I always thought the rtirq script brings down low latency even more. I don't think it helps when there is an irq conflict.14:20
AutoStaticIt doesn't bring down latency14:21
ailoSorry, "gives maximum priority"14:21
AutoStaticIt allows you to prioritize softirq's14:22
AutoStaticAnd that helps when you have IRQ conflicts like this: 16:       8201     318657   IO-APIC-fasteoi   uhci_hcd:usb3, ohci1394, mmc0, eth1, jmb38x_ms:slot0, nvidia14:25
AutoStatic(that's my notebook)14:25
AutoStaticI can't use my FireWire soundcard with a generic kernel, only with a realtime kernel14:26
ailoAutoStatic: How does the rt kernel help avoid conflicts? I'm not sure how to read that, but are there many devices using the same irq?14:27
AutoStatica USB port, a cardreader, my wifi card and my graphics card14:27
ailoOk, so the rtirq picks out one device, and gives it maximum priority within that irq?14:28
ailoI suppose the -lowlatency cannot help there, then.14:28
AutoStaticI give ohci1394 max priority with the help of rtirq14:28
AutoStaticAnd then my FireWire soundcard works14:29
AutoStaticNo, unless you unbind the driver for that USB port, disable WiFi and use Nouveau14:29
AutoStaticAnd disable the cardreader14:30
AutoStaticBut I've never tried that14:30
ailoAutostatic: Have you tried Natty on that system. Would the juju stack make any difference?14:34
falktxhey guys14:35
AutoStaticHello falktx14:36
AutoStaticailo: Haven't tried Natty14:36
falktxAutoStatic: do you have a firewire device?14:36
AutoStaticfalktx: Yes14:36
falktxAutoStatic: I always wanted to know how the new stack works without the udev rules thing...14:38
AutoStaticCan't tell you, I've never tried the new stack14:38
ailofalktx: We figured it out yesterday,14:39
falktxailo: what exact version brings this "fix"? 2.0.1 ?14:39
ailoApparently the udev rules are now default and reside in //lib/udev/rules.d/60-ffado.rules14:40
ailoA part of udev14:40
ailoAnd they point to audio group, so one must be a member in order to get access.14:40
falktxailo: i though that was the old way... ?14:41
AutoStaticYou still need udev14:41
ailofalktx: Have you checked that dir /lib/udev/rules.d/* ?14:42
ailoThere a lot of stuff in there14:42
AutoStaticas the new stack creates nodes too14:42
AutoStaticand you have to get permissions right on those14:42
* falktx is still confused14:43
ailoI don't know anything about udev, but in that folder you can find rules for alsa as well, and pretty much everything else it seems14:44
ScottLhey falktx, is wine-asio available for 64 bit yet?  if i remember correctly, it didn't used to be14:44
falktxbut I already use the udev for firewire in kxstudio...14:44
falktxScottL: ubuntu doesn't have wine 64bit, so it's useless14:45
falktxScottL: but yes, wineasio can be compiled to work on 64bit, JackWinter confirms it14:45
ailofalktx: I guess the main difference is just that you don't have to add them. The rules are a part of the standard installation.14:46
AutoStaticI'm not an udev expert either14:46
falktxailo: ah, k14:47
AutoStaticAll I know is that it allows you to set permissions on device nodes14:47
falktxso the new stack "fix" is a fake14:47
ailofalktx: so, for the ubuntustudiocontrols you would only need to worry about adding the user to audio group, in order to get firewire working14:50
ailoAnd installing the -lowlatency kernel, as it seems14:50
falktxailo: hm, it doesnt work with generic ?14:50
ailofalktx: Not heard of it working yet on the generic.14:51
falktxit doesnt mean it doesnt work14:51
ailoDon't know if it's because of jackd being in realtime mode by default, and cgroups won't let that happen14:51
falktxah, the cgroups stupidity...14:52
falktxalmost forgot about that one...14:52
ailoIn any case, the generic kernel is no good14:52
falktxdoes natty has 2.6.33-rt kernel ?14:52
falktxah, still 31?14:54
aboganifalktx: Do you mean in the official repos?14:54
falktxabogani: yes14:55
falktxi havent checked it yet14:55
aboganifalktx: It isn't still exist anymore. I dropped it completely.14:55
falktxtoo bad14:56
ScottLfalktx, i don't believe there are *any* -rt kernels in the repos14:56
ScottLjust in ppa14:56
falktxScottL: lucid has 2.6.31-rt from karmic14:56
aboganifalktx: For same reason (they don't give me upload rights) I don't support that version.14:57
ScottLfalktx, i was pretty sure it was dropped, but i could be wrong of course :P14:57
falktxabogani: it would be nice to have it rt in the official repos14:57
ScottLubuntu packages shows linux-rt for hardy, karmic, and lucid...hmmmm14:59
AutoStaticfalktx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime14:59
aboganifalktx: Sorry but in last releases I spent only the 15% of my time (which I had dedicated to Ubuntu) for kernel and the rest for Ubuntu's bureaucracy. it isn't acceptable for me.15:00
falktxabogani: i totally understand15:00
falktxabogani: but I though you were MOTU ... are you not ?15:00
aboganifalktx: No.15:01
falktxdamn it15:02
falktxanyone in US dev team is MOTU ?15:02
ScottLfalktx, i don't know about juniper.jaxx, but per.sia and the.muso are either core devs or motu, but of course they aren't directly active currently15:04
aboganifalktx: TheMuso, quadrispro, perhaps persia15:04
ScottLabogani, oh yeah, quadrispro....he's core dev i believe15:05
ScottLthis isn't to say that per.sia and the.muso don't help when asked because they do :)15:05
falktxah, yes, quadispro is from debian15:05
ScottLfalktx, he's also a debian developer, so we have a really good vector (along with debian multimedia team) to get packages into debian and therefore into ubuntu15:06
* falktx hopes to get ladish into debian soon15:06
ScottLfalktx, that would absolutely rock15:06
ScottLfalktx, i believe that if ladish gets into debian and then into ubuntu studio and we can do some PR for it15:07
falktxScottL: ladish currently depends on laditools, so we need to get that there as well15:07
ScottLfalktx, then ladish will be positioned to own the position over jack-session15:07
falktxthat would rock15:07
ScottLladish would be first and provide more functionality15:08
ScottLi really think some PR and tutorial (video and wiki) and people would ignore jack-session15:08
AutoStaticWhat's wrong with jack-session?15:10
AutoStatic(I don't use session managers myself BTW)15:10
AutoStaticWhy do you want people to ignore it?15:11
falktxAutoStatic: have you tried it?15:11
falktxAutoStatic: i did try to develop an app for it, at least the API sucks15:12
AutoStaticIf I'd try it it would become clearer I guess :)15:12
falktxthere's no "open" file or "quit"15:12
falktxjust save, save template and save+quit15:12
falktxwe can save a template but can't open it15:12
AutoStaticAll I know is that Torben Hohn is really enthusiastic about it, guess that blurs my judgement15:13
AutoStaticTorben Hohn is kinda the progressive guy15:14
ailoAnyone thought of making startup scripts for qjackctl, that checks whether the system is tuned or not? Opening up maybe studio-controls, if not..15:15
ailoOr, A startup script.15:15
AutoStaticThere is the realtimequickconfig script15:15
ScottLAutoStatic, i say that because i believe ladish offers more currently than jack-session is planning to offer from what i have read15:16
ScottLhi quadrispro 15:16
quadrisprohi ScottL !15:16
AutoStaticYeah ScottL you're probably right15:17
ScottLit appears that you already have to have jack started and ardour open to re-establish connections (which kinda seems redundant since ardour already does this)15:17
ScottLbut it's probably something i'm doing wrong or not understanding15:17
* falktx wishes to make video tutorials soon, but he's afraid of his bad english15:17
ScottLbut what falktx said is true, it's very difficult to understand (at least intuitively and how does that fare for a new user) when you are saving or opening15:17
ScottLfalktx, i wouldn't worry about your english, there will be many people watching it who either a) aren't native english speakers or b) don't care if you mispronounce a word15:18
falktxi hope so15:19
ScottLthe thing i like about ladish is that it seems to be a single point of startup for all the audio apps, including all connections15:19
AutoStaticYeah, i already got the idea too that jack session management is more a dev orientated alternative while Ladish aims at users15:20
falktxardour3 now requires jack-session15:21
AutoStaticAh, well, I don't use Ardour15:23
AutoStaticNever will probably15:23
ScottLAutoStatic, really?  what do you use and why do you prefer it over ardour? 15:23
* ScottL hopes to learn something cool ;)15:24
ScottLis that because of MIDI sequencing?15:24
AutoStaticYes, that plays a big role, I do a lot with MIDI15:24
AutoStaticBut i also use it to record the band15:25
ScottLthat is very understandable, by the way, qtractor should replace seq24 as the default sequencer in natty15:25
AutoStaticI just like it, it supports all plugin framweorks15:25
AutoStaticSeq24 is a pattern based sequencer15:25
AutoStaticQtractor is not15:25
ScottLfalktx, maybe one of the OSMP guys can help you with the ladish tutorial, maybe do voice over is you are still worried about it15:25
AutoStaticThey are completely different applications15:26
AutoStaticI use them side by side15:26
AutoStaticSeq24 for my pattern based sequences and Qtractor for overdubs15:26
falktxAutoStatic: have you tried the Non-* apps?15:26
AutoStaticYes. Don't like them15:26
AutoStaticThey all lack specific things I need15:27
falktxI'm still looking for a good jack-midi sequencer...15:27
ScottLoh, and AutoStatic, please don't misunderstand my beliefs or intentions: i believe that paul, et al, are doing incredible work and that i don't want to exclude jack-session from ubuntu, ubuntustudio, or anywhere15:27
AutoStaticNo, no I understand15:27
ScottLbut i view things from a user perspective and think that ladish offers more for them15:27
falktxAutoStatic: ScottL: btw, jack-session is in the new PPAs15:27
falktxjust in case15:27
AutoStaticThat's what I wanted to say, you're seeing things from a user perspective and from that perspective Ladish is superior15:28
falktxAutoStatic: nedko @ #ladi would love to hear that...15:29
ScottLhahaha, i bet he would :)   who doesn't like some validation?15:31
* falktx cheats15:31
AutoStaticHe'll get it ;)15:33
AutoStaticHe has an account on Flattr and I support some of his projects15:33
AutoStaticfalktx: what would you like to see in a JACK-MIDI sequencer?15:40
falktxAutoStatic: just the normal stuff, using patterns and then put them together on a sequence15:43
falktxlike seq24 kinda does15:43
AutoStaticBut you're not so fond of seq24?15:43
falktxAutoStatic: I recently developed a plugin for energyXT, which allows to use jack midi input&output15:44
falktxAutoStatic: seq24 is alsa only afaik15:44
ScottLi wonder who bluebug is?15:44
ScottLhi JFo 15:44
AutoStaticfalktx: that's right, I misread your initial post15:45
AutoStaticI read it as a jack-aware midi sequencer15:45
JFohi ScottL 15:45
AutoStaticBut you want a MIDI sequencer that has JACK-MIDI support15:45
falktxAutoStatic: my energyxt work -> http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30730015:46
falktxAutoStatic: yes, so far only ardour3, non-sequencer and epichord does it15:46
falktxAutoStatic: now also energyxt too cause I wrote it :)15:46
AutoStaticAnd Jacker15:46
AutoStaticCool stuff15:47
AutoStatic(The energyXT plugin I mean)15:47
falktxAutoStatic: is the first way to get midi output support in energyXT15:48
falktx(in linux)15:48
AutoStaticI've never used energyXT15:48
falktxlast time I tried jacker crashed on start15:48
ScottLJFo, you have any idea how the Graner's are?15:49
JFowell they are both wacko if that is what you mean ;-) just kidding 15:51
falktxAutoStatic: fun fact... energyXT does not send midi_off events (0x80), it just send a new note with 0 volume15:51
JFoScottL, they are good.15:51
falktxAutoStatic: i laughed at it when I notice it15:51
JFoThe new house is coming along nicely15:51
AutoStaticyeah, thatÅ› pretty clumsy15:51
* AutoStatic that's15:52
ScottLJFo, sweet!  i can only imagine how they felt, just devastated and uprooted15:52
falktxAutoStatic: they store all midi data in an Int, which was hard to work with15:52
JFoyeah, it was a tough time15:52
JFobut things are slowly getting back to normal15:52
falktxAutoStatic: do you know any other jack-midi sequencer?16:10
paultagmorning ScottL 16:15
AutoStaticfalktx: Nope16:15
falktxAutoStatic: my reason for the jack-midi interest is the jack-freewheel support16:16
falktxAutoStatic: if an app support jack properly (audio, midi and transport), you can render an entire project in freewheel mode, without a single xrun no matter how many synths/effects you enable16:17
AutoStaticSounds cool, but there are not a lot of apps that support all that16:18
AutoStaticI guess16:18
falktxAutoStatic: yep, that is a sad thing16:19
AutoStaticWhat do you mean with rendering actually?16:20
falktxI talked to Rui about jack.midi in qtractor, but he said not possible at this time16:20
AutoStaticNo, Qtractor relies heavily on Alsa midi16:20
falktxAutoStatic: hehe, a tool I developed specially for this16:20
falktxAutoStatic: imagine this16:20
falktxhydrogen open in song mode, synced with qtractor (audio)16:21
falktxsome effects laying around16:21
falktxAutoStatic: you set a start time (usually 0), and a stop/end time (3mins by default)16:21
falktxAutoStatic: my app will start jack_capture, set freewheel mode, and start transport16:21
falktxAutoStatic: when the transport reaches end-time, transport and recording stops16:22
falktxAutoStatic: it renders a whole project with no crackles, and mot of time faster than realtime16:23
AutoStaticSounds a lot like what monolithic apps are doing on other platforms16:25
falktxAutoStatic: yep, but we can get the jack modular setup that way16:26
falktxusing realtime stuff in a laptop doesnt quite work for me16:27
AutoStaticI don't see the relation between rendering and using realtime stuff16:27
falktxand qtractor cannot render midi synths to audio directly, so I think this is the best idea16:28
falktxAutoStatic: ^16:28
falktxAutoStatic: I cannot use many synths at the same time without getting xruns16:28
AutoStaticWell, this is all a bit above my head ;)16:33
AutoStatic(from my own perspective)16:33
=== falktx_ is now known as falktx
ScottLhi troy_s, how have you been?17:30
troy_sScottL: LOL17:30
troy_sScottL: Apparently you missed the cross posting event.17:31
troy_sScottL: Been uh... interesting here the past two days.17:31
troy_sScottL: You?17:32
holsteinmaybe im unclear as to what the time issue can be with getting the -lowlatency kernel in the repo17:49
holsteinis the plan to make the generic one work ?17:49
holsteinif thats the case, thats fine17:50
ScottLtroy_s, i've been busy, which cross posting?17:53
troy_sScottL: About 35,000 views. Lots of vitriol. Lots of anger. Lots of tangential opinion. Plenty of drama. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2091194  http://lwn.net/Articles/422414/ 17:54
ScottLtroy_s, sorry was busy getting an answer in another channel17:59
troy_sScottL: Don't be sorry. ;)17:59
ScottLtroy_s, oh yes, i had expected this to make quite a stir17:59
troy_sScottL: Yeah. It did.17:59
ScottLtroy_s, i know you had been critical of this before and was surprised it took this long to make the post, but i'm glad you did17:59
ScottLtroy_s, sadly i haven't posted in a long time :(   i'm hoping to start up again in a month or so.  and keep it going again18:00
ailoholstein: About the cgroups on generic kernel, all I know is that some jack devs are working on it.18:00
ScottLholstein, initially the blueprint was to get the documentation completed for natty so others (us included) can get other kernels into the repos18:02
ScottLholstein, but JFo was saying that other critical items are stacking up which is delaying other things (our concerns as well, i.e. -lowlatency kernel)18:03
ScottLholstein, so once the "log jam" with the UKT settles then we can expect some movement on the remaining items, including for us :)18:04
ScottLholstein, so, it might be in time for natty, but i'm expecting not, but this means that i expect it for natty+1 hopefully18:04
JFoyeah, there are tons of things that are getting shifted18:04
JFomuch to the dismay of the team itself18:04
holsteinScottL: im just wondering how we would get permission to have that kernel installed by default18:04
ScottLholstein, "by default" do you into the repos or onto the ISO/disc?18:05
holsteinwell, ideally in the repo18:05
holsteinbut if thats not going to happen18:06
ailoScottL: Could it be possible to add a repo on top of the Ubuntu one?18:06
holsteincan we get premission to have a non-official repo item inculded?18:06
holsteinincluded* 18:06
holsteinim just following this RT in maverick thread in the mailing list18:06
holsteini've sent several messages with a nice link 18:07
holsteinand still, there are questions18:07
holsteinvalid ones18:07
holsteinabout how to get an RT kernel18:07
ailoholstein: well, isn't that mainly because of Maverick?18:08
ScottLholstein, well, i don't think it's a matter of getting "permission" as it is logistics, i.e. _how_ would one include the repo with the installation18:08
ScottLholstein, which would probably be modifying a package to add that line to the sources.list18:08
ScottLholstein, but this doesn't really get the item (or kernel) installed on the image, just provides a path to get it18:10
ScottLholstein, but ultimately, with the image build system that exists, i don't think it's possible to include something not in the repos18:10
ScottLi think other distros (avlinux, kxstudio) build their images from an extant system, meaning they either have a working install that they make an image from (ala remastersys) or they build it in a chroot18:15
ScottLi think falktx used to use remastersys but moved to building their own image via script18:16
holsteinsorry, phone..18:16
ScottLessentially i believe that falktx has automated this process:https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization18:16
ScottLno problem holstein 18:17
ScottLbut i do not know if he build his install in a chroot as they wiki page describes18:17
holsteinScottL: i would be fine with abogani 's ppa added by default18:17
holsteinand documentation18:17
holsteinhow do we make that happen for natty?18:18
holsteinwhat can i do* to make that happen?18:18
ScottLBUT the automatic build deamons (buildd) start with "seeds" names of packages desired and it "germinates" which means it finds all the depencies and somehow makes an ISO image that works18:18
ScottLthat last part is beyond me though18:18
holsteinwell, somebody knows18:19
ScottLholstein, i think we need to have a meeting soon and determine what changes we would like to make to any of the ubuntustudio-* packages18:19
holsteinand it cant be rocket science18:19
holsteinthats something i could find out18:19
holsteinfalk would know that i bet18:19
holsteinScottL: agreed18:19
ailoScottL: What's the deal with existing Ubuntustudio packages? I don't know the procedure. Can they all be updated before final release?18:19
holsteini just didnt want to miss the opportunity to get -lowlatency in natty18:19
ScottLbut the point of the buildd system is that it is automated and all based on what is in the repos, to do otherwise would probably mean rewriting the buildd system18:20
holsteinat least an apt-get away18:20
ScottLailo, yes18:20
ScottLailo, but there is a limit though18:20
ailoScottL: So we could in a sence add some scripts and default settings to make it really easy to setup everything?18:20
ScottLailo, according to the schedule, that time frame would be Feb 24th:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule18:21
ScottLailo, possibly, but we need to determine the changes, make sure they're sane, modify the package, update the source, and Bob's your uncle18:21
ScottLif nothing goes wrong somewhere ;)18:21
ailoAt least get Ubuntustudio-controls updated and include kernel install to it, I think.18:22
ScottLkeep in mind, not all the proposed or intended changes for -controls needs to happen now, we can stage it between various releases if necessary18:23
holsteinbut, i could get on adding abogani 's PPA to the sources right?18:23
holsteinthat doesnt really change anything functionality wise18:23
holsteinout of the box18:24
ScottLi think adding the a ppa to the sources.list would be better suited for the ubuntustudio-settings package thought, not in -controls18:24
ScottLIF we are going to add it automatically and not by user request (by ticking a box)18:24
ScottLholstein, agreed, the user would need to apt-get it, but at least it would show up in synaptic or apt-get cache18:25
ailoIf we add a script to jackd startup configuration that checks if kernel is installed, if user belongs to audio group, and stuff like that, this could pop up the studio controls, that would let you set everything up.18:25
ScottLif "apt-get cache" is the right apt-get command, don't know if this is correct18:25
holsteinScottL: im comfotable with that18:25
holsteinsudo apt-cache search linux-lowlatency18:26
holsteinand something would come up18:26
ScottLailo, i'm not sure that is the correct approach18:27
ScottLis this going to happen everytime jack is started?18:27
ScottLwhat if the user _doesn't_ want -lowlatency?18:27
ailoIt would only pop up, if something was missing18:27
ailoOn Natty? On Ubuntustudio? We can't use generic, in my opinion.18:28
ScottLailo,  right, but what if the user is comfortable with -generic, will it pop up everytime because -lowlatency is "missing" ?18:28
ScottLoh yes, i keep forgetting about the cgroups18:28
holsteinwell, the plan is that the -generic will be what we use though18:28
* ScottL is going to install vanilla natty today and play with it18:28
holsteinin the hopefully not to distant future18:28
ailoConsider the -lowlatency a generic kernel, because it pretty much is18:28
ScottLi tried installing yesterday's ubuntustudio ISO and the kernel keeps panicing during installation (but at least it's not terminating with sigterm anymore)18:30
holsteini did vanilla18:30
holsteinand added jack to test18:30
holsteinadded the meta packages yesterday18:30
ScottLailo, but the -lowlatency kernel doesn't have rt_group_sched, correct?  and this prevents cgroups from being a problem correct?18:30
ailoScottL: Exactly18:31
ScottLholstein, one of the meta packages failed to buld last night though, i'll have to choose carefully which i install, but i think it was the audio meta, so i should be okay18:31
ailoAnd, the -lowlatency kernel has everything the -generic has, except it's better at lowlatency.18:31
holsteini just did ubuntustudio-audio and ubuntustudio-audio-plugins18:31
holsteini think -video failed 18:31
ailoScottL: There could be many strategies for a startup script for qjackctl. One strategy could be using a onetime, did you set everything up?18:35
ailoAlso, there would perhaps need to be a dependency to the Ubuntustudio-controls, no matter which audio-related ubuntustudio-package one installs18:37
ailoThe problem is mainly related to jack. Realtime as well as firewire. And both seem to need -lowlatency and the audio group.18:38
ailoI can understand holstein's concerns on not having things "out of the box". For someone not realizing they need -lowlatency may get really dissapointed.18:42
ailo(In a way, jackd being in the main repo without a functional kernel for realtime is a pretty serious flaw. )18:47
ScottLailo, are you suggesting we modify the jack package?19:06
holsteini think having access to a RT kernel out of the box is fine19:07
ailoScottL: I don't know about jackd. That's still in the main repo and should of course at some point be adjusted to work with new Ubuntu kernels.19:12
ailoBut, Ubuntustudio-settings could perhaps include something that makes it easier to get things setup. 19:13
ailoThe simplest approach could be doc on the Desktop, of course.19:14
ailoThe best thing, of course would be to get the -lowlatency in.19:15
ailoIf we were to adress the importance a bit, perhaps we can make them upgrade the importance of the -lowlatency kernel?19:16
ailoAnd things would go faster.19:16
ailoScottL: By the way, those workflow ideas for audio I guess would be perfect i used as templates on something ladish, eventually.19:29
ailo(time to sleep..)19:30
ScottLailo, holstein:  okay, finally got a vanilla natty installed and you are correct, sir; i can't get real-time privileges22:34
ScottLailo, holstein:  the audio group was already there and i added myself to it, but still no real-time privilages22:34
ScottLailo, holstein: and i get horrible stable latency with -generic kernel22:34
ScottLnext, i move onto abogani's -lowlatency kernel :)22:35
holsteinScottL: cool22:56
holsteinglad you're finding the same results22:56
holsteinat least22:56
* holstein dinner... bbl22:57

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