[00:00] ailo, would you be able to get all the stuff you learned onto a wiki page? [00:03] ScottL: Well, about ffado, it seems we don't need to know the udev stuff anymore, other than that the rules point to group "audio". In a way, that is a universal problem now on Natty, that one needs to belong to that group. [00:04] In order to get access to the device [00:05] For Ubuntustudio, it's all about belonging to the audio group, then. [00:10] As long as we are on the -lowlatency kernel things are simple. On -rt we might need to adjust rtirtq script to work with firewire. [00:15] ailo, i was just thinking that it would be nice to know what it took for firewire to work, especially six months or a year from now and people don't remember or aren't around anymore [00:16] Sadly, it is Maverick that seems to need the most tweaking. The only problem with firewire could be that the device is not included in the udev rules. [00:16] I mean on Natty, the only problem would be that [00:17] Which, I cannot tell by just looking at the rules. I would think all ffado supported devices are listed there [00:18] ScottL: For Natty it would become a short wiki page. Install Alessio's kernel, become member of audio group, reboot.. [00:20] For realtime we need the kernel. For access to firewire, belonging to audio group, I don't know. [00:31] ailo: cool [00:31] that makes sense [00:31] ScottL: ailo and I were queried today while i went a step and a time [00:32] i tried sudo qjackctl first with the generic kernel and my firewire device with no luck [00:32] i booted the lowlatency kernel and it worked as sudo [00:33] all i did permission-wise was add myself to the audio group [00:33] holstein, i was asking alio if someone can document what it took to get firewire working so if we have to come back later then we know what should be going on [00:33] BUT, we're going to try and find someone to verify [00:34] and we both had an idea for a verifier [00:34] ScottL: i say, after one other person has the same results [00:34] one or more of course* [00:34] with a different firewire device than what i have [00:34] we'll document it [00:34] ScottL: maybe the kernel stuff gets sorted [00:35] and natty can have abogani 's -lowlatency kernel [00:35] holstein, it looks like other issues are standing in the way of getting the -lowlatency kernel into the repos at this time :( [00:36] and in the US-controls, it could be 'click here to add your user to the audio group for firewire [00:36] so i am again doubting if we'll see it for natty [00:36] ScottL: we need that kernel [00:36] period [00:36] holstein, i don't doubt it will be kept out forever, my impression is that there were some other, unrelated issues at hand that was causing several things to be delayed [00:37] if its testing, we got a nice pool of users on it [00:37] holstein: ScottL: I feel satisfied after learning about the udev rules, since it explains how the user gets access to the firewire cards. [00:38] I'm actually editing a wiki page now, but only concerning Ubuntu 11.04 [00:38] ScottL: as long as we can put something somewhere about how to add that PPA [00:38] somewhere in the istallation [00:38] installation* [00:39] ScottL: would i join -motu ? [00:40] and ask? [00:40] or have you already got the axe on it ? [00:44] holstein, i don't think it's testing for anything we are doing, i got the impression it was higher order stuff that effected ubuntu at large [00:45] holstein, BUT you can ask JFo about it, he's the one who mentioned it [00:46] looking at backscroll, JFo said, "it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone)" [00:47] right [00:47] i'll ask [00:47] because we need that kernel [00:47] US [00:47] if we are going to compete [00:48] we have the only audio/multimedia distro that doesnt have a RT kernel [00:48] i used to not mind much when we had one in the repo [00:48] and the generic one is getting so much better all the time [00:48] BUT its not there [00:49] we just cant support a large percentage of professionals [00:49] out of the box, OR with a simple install [00:49] AND the -lowlatency kernel + natty seems very nice so far [00:49] for me [00:49] great combo for FW [00:51] that installed by default, and i dont think anyone could complain legitamately [00:53] i feel very strongly about supporting firewire because i believe very many people are using laptops with ubuntu studio [00:53] holstein: I agree. The lowlatency kernel is the perfect replacement for the generic kernel [00:54] if not replacement [00:54] its perfect in this time [00:54] It's a must to get audio working at all [00:54] while the generic one is evolving [00:54] i mean, if this was a couple years ago [00:55] i probably wouldnt even understand how to add a PPA [00:55] or what that means [00:55] 'is it a security risk?' [00:55] i think its a bad call [00:56] especially since its a real 'gotcha' after you've installed it, plugged the firewire device in, and nothing happens [01:11] not to knock what you are saying, but the -generic kernel does me good for my pci delta44 ;) [01:12] right [01:13] but, my device doesnt work at all [01:13] not even poorly [01:13] or at a high-latency [01:13] wont start [01:13] ScottL: But you don't get realtime privilege [01:13] You can see it in the jack log [01:13] and im not trying to say 'wah, my device dont work' [01:14] i know what to do, but lots of folk dont [01:14] they'll just remove ubuntustudio with a bad taste in their mouth [01:15] ailo, when i run qjackctl it has "RT" flashing though [01:15] ScottL: check in the messages though [01:15] i will [01:15] i had a message 'cannot get RT privs' [01:16] but i also get a message to choose to enable rt privelages when jackd is installed [01:16] i forget the exact message [01:16] i'll check later tonight [01:16] in the -lowlatency kernel [01:16] i finally upgraded my music box to the dual core machine :) [01:16] using the alsa driver, not firewire [01:16] well, upgrading is the right word [01:17] i had that message about not getting RT privs [01:17] before adding my user to the audio group [01:17] JACK was running though [01:17] and seemed OK [01:17] holstein, did you start with vanilla ubuntu and add packages? [01:17] i started with ubuntu studio disc [01:17] well, "installed" not started [01:17] ScottL: i had only added jackd at that poing [01:17] point* [01:18] its that test laptop i set up a few weeks ago [01:18] 64bit [01:18] for my install i believe i will already be part of the audio group and i really believe i'm running jack with realtime privs [01:18] but i'll check later tonight as i said [01:18] ScottL: does ubuntustudio add the user to the audio group ? [01:18] by default? [01:18] * ScottL is doing the final update to packages after install [01:18] ScottL: It would be impossible, becuase of cgroups [01:18] holstein, yes, i believe it does [01:19] ailo, this is lucid, not natty [01:19] Ok, sorry :) [01:19] i keep the LTS on my studio box [01:19] hehe, my bad too, didn't mention this before [01:19] ScottL: w00t, that great news on the box :) [01:20] question: if i had installed the 32 bit version on the dual core machine, would it recognize more that 3 gigs of memory? [01:21] i'm guessing that it wouldn't [01:21] another question: if there any benefit (other than memory) to running a 64 bit install? any cons to running 64 bit? [01:23] ScottL: you need a PAE kernel [01:23] if the motherboard supports PAE [01:24] check out.. [01:24] http://www.bandshed.net/AVLinux.html [01:24] nice explaination of the PAE kernel used in that distro [01:24] which, i kinda want to try now [01:24] i was reading about it earlier today [01:24] http://liquorix.net/ [01:25] ScottL: i cant run one thing i want to run [01:25] lightscribe labeler [01:25] in 64bit [01:25] other than that, i havent had any problems [01:26] cant say ive seen any drastic benifits either [01:26] ScottL: One benefit is that build times are a bit faster. Some thing just seem faster. [01:26] my understanding is that wine-asio doesn't work in 64 bit, but that was also a year ago [01:26] probably falktx has an idea about that as well [01:26] falk is up on the 64bit support [01:27] ailo, that is good because i'll be doing some backports soon :) [01:27] holstein: You mean, PAE for 32 bit systems, right? [01:27] ailo: yup [01:27] ive used one [01:27] To get more memory access [01:27] not really for that purpose [01:27] i just got one [01:28] with an ubuntu install [01:28] not sure why [01:28] holstein: I think the only benefit of PAE is that it supports more than 4 GB of ram [01:28] For 32 bit systems [01:30] I think it has to do with adress names. On a 32 bit processor, you have a limit on how many combinations of adresses you can have. [01:30] ive never needed to try it [01:30] but ive heard it works [01:30] So, on the PAE it uses some other way of getting adresses, probably by splitting up the adress into two 32bit parts, or something [01:44] Ok, I added my first ever wiki page on Ubuntu's community documentation. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Firewire Audio on Ubuntu 11.04 Natty [01:44] hmm, the link is a bit short [01:44] nice, we should link to that... [01:47] ailo, holstein: my understanding is that the -rt kernel was needed to avoid irq conflicts with firewire devices, can this be addressed with the -lowlatency kernel as well? [01:48] ScottL: -lowlatency is the one i was using [01:48] in my tests [01:48] in natty [01:50] ScottL: I don't know if perhaps the new stack has changed that somehow. I suppose, judging on how well it seems to run for holstein, and Asmo, that won't be needed anymore? [01:51] oh, that would be awesome too :) [01:51] holstein: ScottL: I too was under the impression that only -rt gave decent performance in the past. [01:52] Maybe I should not have had spaces in my wiki page name? [01:52] ailo: so far that has been my experience [01:52] i was very impressed when i got down to 1.6ms latency today [01:53] with the -lowlatency kernel [01:53] I'm trying to find if I can move the page. Anyone done that? [01:53] ailo: the wiki page? [01:53] cant move it [01:53] you'll have to make another [01:53] and copy [01:53] Ok. Will do. [01:53] prolly [01:53] dont know who can move them [01:54] none of us i bet [01:56] So we can't delete our own pages either? [01:57] not sure [01:57] I'm not able to now, at least [01:58] I did a renaming, that I didn't like :( [01:59] How about emptying a page, and redirecting? [01:59] maybe [01:59] do we have a firewire one? [01:59] for ubuntustudio? [01:59] we could add to the ubuntustudio preperation one [02:02] Ok, so this is the name of the page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FirewireNatty [02:03] ailo: maybe it should be audio named? [02:03] not sure [02:04] is this for all firewire devices? [02:04] I'm putting it in audio category now. [02:04] I'm explaining the firewire device support at the bottom of the page a bit. [02:05] cool [02:05] i like it [02:06] holstein: So, this is just reference for an unreleased distro, on our progress. If we want to save it for Ubuntustudio, we could put a link somewhere maybe? [02:08] cool [07:32] * abogani waves all [13:24] morning abogani , ailo , astraljava , AutoStatic , paultag , persia :) [13:24] Good afternoon ScottL! [13:27] Hello ScottL [13:33] hi all! [13:33] ScottL: Do we have some news? [13:36] abogani, about the -lowlatency kernel? not very good news for the moment [13:36] ScottL: :-( [13:37] abogani, JFo said, "it seems that we have so many critical items that are getting delayed (and this one has also been pushed back at least one milestone)" [13:37] abogani, this isn't to say that it will not happen, just not quite yet [13:38] ScottL: So they are quite busy. [13:38] abogani, and i think the UKT was a bit shocked to learn that the -lowlatency kernel requires compile time flag changes, hopefully that facilitates the process :) [13:38] only [13:39] abogani, requires compile time flag changes only i will state it as such from now on [13:39] abogani, but hopefully this knowledge facilitates the process considerably :) [13:40] abogani, and ailo, asmo, and holstein have all had extremely favourable comments about the -lowlatency kernel and firewire :-) [13:41] abogani, so we will definitely keep pushing them to get it into the repositories, even if it is delayed until natty+1 (hopefully it doesn't take that long however) [13:41] ScottL: Good. [13:42] ScottL: What does natty+1 mean? [13:43] After final release? [13:46] ailo: No it means 11.10 [13:47] ok, so UbuntuStudio Natty will most probably need to include the ppa, then. [13:54] abogani, my understanding was that the -rt kernel was required for firewire users avoid irq conflicts [13:54] abogani, does the -lowlatency kernel provide the same benefit? [13:55] Isn't that done using the rtirq script together with the -rt kernel? [14:02] ScottL: The -rt/-realtime kernel don't avoid irqs conflicts: It let us how prioritize irqs execution. As ailo pinpointed rtirq do exactly that job. [14:03] it let use decide how prioritize [14:05] abogani, i'm frightfully ignorant about firewire and irq conflicts, however i trust your knowledge which is why i ask you [14:05] abogani, okay, so if a user is experiencing an irq conflict and they are using the -lowlatency kernel, can they still use rtirq to fix it? [14:09] ScottL: From what I understand the rtirq script only works with the realtime patch. [14:13] Seems to me that ailo is very well informed. :-) [14:19] That's right, rtirq only works with kernels that have the realtime patch [14:20] I don't know so much about the danger of irq conflicts, but I always thought the rtirq script brings down low latency even more. I don't think it helps when there is an irq conflict. [14:21] It doesn't bring down latency [14:21] Sorry, "gives maximum priority" [14:22] It allows you to prioritize softirq's [14:25] And that helps when you have IRQ conflicts like this: 16: 8201 318657 IO-APIC-fasteoi uhci_hcd:usb3, ohci1394, mmc0, eth1, jmb38x_ms:slot0, nvidia [14:25] (that's my notebook) [14:26] I can't use my FireWire soundcard with a generic kernel, only with a realtime kernel [14:27] AutoStatic: How does the rt kernel help avoid conflicts? I'm not sure how to read that, but are there many devices using the same irq? [14:27] Yes [14:27] a USB port, a cardreader, my wifi card and my graphics card [14:28] Ok, so the rtirq picks out one device, and gives it maximum priority within that irq? [14:28] Yes [14:28] I suppose the -lowlatency cannot help there, then. [14:28] I give ohci1394 max priority with the help of rtirq [14:29] And then my FireWire soundcard works [14:29] No, unless you unbind the driver for that USB port, disable WiFi and use Nouveau [14:30] And disable the cardreader [14:30] But I've never tried that [14:34] Autostatic: Have you tried Natty on that system. Would the juju stack make any difference? [14:35] hey guys [14:36] Hello falktx [14:36] ailo: Haven't tried Natty [14:36] AutoStatic: do you have a firewire device? [14:36] falktx: Yes [14:37] cool [14:38] AutoStatic: I always wanted to know how the new stack works without the udev rules thing... [14:38] Can't tell you, I've never tried the new stack [14:39] falktx: We figured it out yesterday, [14:39] ailo: what exact version brings this "fix"? 2.0.1 ? [14:40] Apparently the udev rules are now default and reside in //lib/udev/rules.d/60-ffado.rules [14:40] A part of udev [14:40] And they point to audio group, so one must be a member in order to get access. [14:41] err [14:41] ailo: i though that was the old way... ? [14:41] You still need udev [14:42] falktx: Have you checked that dir /lib/udev/rules.d/* ? [14:42] There a lot of stuff in there [14:42] as the new stack creates nodes too [14:42] and you have to get permissions right on those [14:43] * falktx is still confused [14:44] I don't know anything about udev, but in that folder you can find rules for alsa as well, and pretty much everything else it seems [14:44] yep [14:44] hey falktx, is wine-asio available for 64 bit yet? if i remember correctly, it didn't used to be [14:44] but I already use the udev for firewire in kxstudio... [14:45] ScottL: ubuntu doesn't have wine 64bit, so it's useless [14:45] ScottL: but yes, wineasio can be compiled to work on 64bit, JackWinter confirms it [14:46] falktx: I guess the main difference is just that you don't have to add them. The rules are a part of the standard installation. [14:46] I'm not an udev expert either [14:47] ailo: ah, k [14:47] All I know is that it allows you to set permissions on device nodes [14:47] so the new stack "fix" is a fake [14:47] ehe [14:50] falktx: so, for the ubuntustudiocontrols you would only need to worry about adding the user to audio group, in order to get firewire working [14:50] And installing the -lowlatency kernel, as it seems [14:50] ailo: hm, it doesnt work with generic ? [14:51] falktx: Not heard of it working yet on the generic. [14:51] it doesnt mean it doesnt work [14:51] Don't know if it's because of jackd being in realtime mode by default, and cgroups won't let that happen [14:52] ah, the cgroups stupidity... [14:52] almost forgot about that one... [14:52] In any case, the generic kernel is no good [14:52] k [14:52] does natty has 2.6.33-rt kernel ? [14:53] Nope [14:54] ah, still 31? [14:54] falktx: Do you mean in the official repos? [14:55] abogani: yes [14:55] i havent checked it yet [14:55] falktx: It isn't still exist anymore. I dropped it completely. [14:55] oh [14:56] too bad [14:56] falktx, i don't believe there are *any* -rt kernels in the repos [14:56] just in ppa [14:56] ScottL: lucid has 2.6.31-rt from karmic [14:57] falktx: For same reason (they don't give me upload rights) I don't support that version. [14:57] falktx, i was pretty sure it was dropped, but i could be wrong of course :P [14:57] abogani: it would be nice to have it rt in the official repos [14:57] ... [14:59] ubuntu packages shows linux-rt for hardy, karmic, and lucid...hmmmm [14:59] falktx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime [15:00] falktx: Sorry but in last releases I spent only the 15% of my time (which I had dedicated to Ubuntu) for kernel and the rest for Ubuntu's bureaucracy. it isn't acceptable for me. [15:00] abogani: i totally understand [15:00] abogani: but I though you were MOTU ... are you not ? [15:01] falktx: No. [15:02] damn it [15:02] anyone in US dev team is MOTU ? [15:04] falktx, i don't know about juniper.jaxx, but per.sia and the.muso are either core devs or motu, but of course they aren't directly active currently [15:04] falktx: TheMuso, quadrispro, perhaps persia [15:05] abogani, oh yeah, quadrispro....he's core dev i believe [15:05] this isn't to say that per.sia and the.muso don't help when asked because they do :) [15:05] ah, yes, quadispro is from debian [15:06] falktx, he's also a debian developer, so we have a really good vector (along with debian multimedia team) to get packages into debian and therefore into ubuntu [15:06] yep [15:06] * falktx hopes to get ladish into debian soon [15:06] falktx, that would absolutely rock [15:07] falktx, i believe that if ladish gets into debian and then into ubuntu studio and we can do some PR for it [15:07] ScottL: ladish currently depends on laditools, so we need to get that there as well [15:07] falktx, then ladish will be positioned to own the position over jack-session [15:07] that would rock [15:08] ladish would be first and provide more functionality [15:08] i really think some PR and tutorial (video and wiki) and people would ignore jack-session [15:10] What's wrong with jack-session? [15:10] (I don't use session managers myself BTW) [15:11] Why do you want people to ignore it? [15:11] AutoStatic: have you tried it? [15:11] No [15:12] AutoStatic: i did try to develop an app for it, at least the API sucks [15:12] If I'd try it it would become clearer I guess :) [15:12] there's no "open" file or "quit" [15:12] just save, save template and save+quit [15:12] we can save a template but can't open it [15:13] All I know is that Torben Hohn is really enthusiastic about it, guess that blurs my judgement [15:14] Torben Hohn is kinda the progressive guy [15:15] Anyone thought of making startup scripts for qjackctl, that checks whether the system is tuned or not? Opening up maybe studio-controls, if not.. [15:15] Or, A startup script. [15:15] There is the realtimequickconfig script [15:16] AutoStatic, i say that because i believe ladish offers more currently than jack-session is planning to offer from what i have read [15:16] hi quadrispro [15:16] hi ScottL ! [15:17] Yeah ScottL you're probably right [15:17] it appears that you already have to have jack started and ardour open to re-establish connections (which kinda seems redundant since ardour already does this) [15:17] but it's probably something i'm doing wrong or not understanding [15:17] * falktx wishes to make video tutorials soon, but he's afraid of his bad english [15:17] but what falktx said is true, it's very difficult to understand (at least intuitively and how does that fare for a new user) when you are saving or opening [15:18] falktx, i wouldn't worry about your english, there will be many people watching it who either a) aren't native english speakers or b) don't care if you mispronounce a word [15:19] i hope so [15:19] the thing i like about ladish is that it seems to be a single point of startup for all the audio apps, including all connections [15:20] Yeah, i already got the idea too that jack session management is more a dev orientated alternative while Ladish aims at users [15:21] ardour3 now requires jack-session [15:23] Ah, well, I don't use Ardour [15:23] Never will probably [15:23] AutoStatic, really? what do you use and why do you prefer it over ardour? [15:24] * ScottL hopes to learn something cool ;) [15:24] Qtractor [15:24] is that because of MIDI sequencing? [15:24] Yes, that plays a big role, I do a lot with MIDI [15:25] But i also use it to record the band [15:25] that is very understandable, by the way, qtractor should replace seq24 as the default sequencer in natty [15:25] I just like it, it supports all plugin framweorks [15:25] Seq24 is a pattern based sequencer [15:25] Qtractor is not [15:25] falktx, maybe one of the OSMP guys can help you with the ladish tutorial, maybe do voice over is you are still worried about it [15:26] They are completely different applications [15:26] I use them side by side [15:26] Seq24 for my pattern based sequences and Qtractor for overdubs [15:26] AutoStatic: have you tried the Non-* apps? [15:26] Yes. Don't like them [15:26] heh [15:27] They all lack specific things I need [15:27] I'm still looking for a good jack-midi sequencer... [15:27] oh, and AutoStatic, please don't misunderstand my beliefs or intentions: i believe that paul, et al, are doing incredible work and that i don't want to exclude jack-session from ubuntu, ubuntustudio, or anywhere [15:27] No, no I understand [15:27] but i view things from a user perspective and think that ladish offers more for them [15:27] AutoStatic: ScottL: btw, jack-session is in the new PPAs [15:27] just in case [15:28] That's what I wanted to say, you're seeing things from a user perspective and from that perspective Ladish is superior [15:29] AutoStatic: nedko @ #ladi would love to hear that... [15:31] hahaha, i bet he would :) who doesn't like some validation? [15:31] * falktx cheats [15:33] He'll get it ;) [15:33] He has an account on Flattr and I support some of his projects [15:40] falktx: what would you like to see in a JACK-MIDI sequencer? [15:43] AutoStatic: just the normal stuff, using patterns and then put them together on a sequence [15:43] like seq24 kinda does [15:43] But you're not so fond of seq24? [15:44] AutoStatic: I recently developed a plugin for energyXT, which allows to use jack midi input&output [15:44] AutoStatic: seq24 is alsa only afaik [15:44] i wonder who bluebug is? [15:44] hi JFo [15:45] falktx: that's right, I misread your initial post [15:45] I read it as a jack-aware midi sequencer [15:45] hi ScottL [15:45] But you want a MIDI sequencer that has JACK-MIDI support [15:46] AutoStatic: my energyxt work -> http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=307300 [15:46] AutoStatic: yes, so far only ardour3, non-sequencer and epichord does it [15:46] AutoStatic: now also energyxt too cause I wrote it :) [15:46] And Jacker [15:47] https://bitbucket.org/paniq/jacker/wiki/Home [15:47] Cool stuff [15:47] (The energyXT plugin I mean) [15:48] AutoStatic: is the first way to get midi output support in energyXT [15:48] (in linux) [15:48]