[00:11] <vivek_> hello !!!!
[01:12] <TrickyJ> Byeee friends 
[01:13] <TrickyJ> See u all tomorrow :)
[01:13] <TrickyJ> !search ronnie
[01:13] <ubot4> None found
[01:13] <TrickyJ> Ok
[01:13] <TrickyJ> byee
[01:53] <cjohnston> howdy
[02:10] <mhall119> hi
[02:11] <nigelb> hey cjohnston 
[02:18] <cjohnston> o/
[02:21] <nigelb> \o\ /o/ ~o~ \o/
[02:21] <mhall119> nice dance
[02:21] <nigelb> haha
[05:00] <strywgr> anyone online?
[06:40] <YoBoY> good morning
[11:03] <HakanS> Our loco team in launchpad has been set to "Moderated Team". Should it be so?
[11:12] <popey> HakanS: its a bug in launchpad
[11:13] <popey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/700724
[11:13] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 700724 in launchpad "Subscription policy inherited from parent team member (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Low,Triaged]
[11:14] <HakanS> popey: OK. Thanks for the answer.
[11:18] <HakanS> popey: I have a question about loco membership. Is it OK to not approve membership for a person who cause trouble in the Community?
[11:20] <popey> its better to resolve the issue
[11:24] <HakanS> popey: We have had problems earlier with a person who have spread lies about the loco in his blogg.
[11:26] <HakanS> In our forum he has said he is a representative of Canonical. Which proved to be a lie.
[11:26] <HakanS> Now he want to be a member of the loco team.
[11:29] <HakanS> What do you think is the best way to do?
[11:33] <popey> in what was does the person contribute to the team?
[11:40] <HakanS> popey: So far, only by discussing and criticizing the way people behave in our forum.
[11:41] <popey> then i would encourage them to work with the team in a positive and constructive manner. find out how they want to contribute and show them what they can do
[11:44] <YoBoY> our team is (in launchpad) a closed team, if you want to be a member of our team you have to be an administrator or a loco contact or something valuable. We plan to estend this to something like the ubuntu members. But every french users can have an account on our website. Sometimes we have to explain why we work like this and everyone understand that.
[11:45] <HakanS> popey: I have done that. I wrote to him: "I have accepted you as a member of the LoCo Team. I expect that you will do a good job within the Community."
[11:50] <HakanS> Our problem is that it is only recently that we have started using launchpad team members as a definition who is Loco members. Until november 2010 all forum members (16000 !) was seen as loco members.
[11:51] <HakanS> This is a big change for many people.
[12:00] <YoBoY> HakanS: yes, sure, why do you want/need to use the launchad team ? it's for "hey, i'm from this country and i'm an ubuntu user" (open team) or "hey, i'm an active member of this loco-team" (moderated team) ?
[12:13] <kinouchou>  
[12:13] <kinouchou> hello
[12:14] <HakanS> YoBoY: Honestly, I do not really know.
[12:24] <HakanS> YoBoY. We've had some controversy recently about the loco member definition. Some think that discussing margins on our website is to contribute to the loco. Some think not.
[12:26] <HakanS> YoBoy: Some think that the are active members just by telling others what to do.
[12:35] <HakanS> YoBoY: My idea is to moderate the launchpad team so that only consists of active members.  But I know we will receive massive criticism for this from those who can not be there.
[12:37] <HakanS> YoBoY: Do everyone accept that your team is moderated?
[12:56] <mhall119> HakanS: a member's activity tends to come and go
[12:57] <mhall119> a loco shouldn't be just for people who are actively doing something
[12:57] <mhall119> on our loco (Florida), all that's required is interest in Ubuntu
[12:58] <mhall119> we'll go months at a time without hearing from some members, but they're still members
[13:02] <HakanS> mhall119: I know, but our problem is that we have some members that only criticize that nothing happens in our project. But when you ask them to help, they do not want.
[13:03] <HakanS> mhall119: And these people are very loud.
[13:06] <Pendulum> HakanS: I was once living in an area with a LoCo that required proof of activity before letting you join
[13:07] <Pendulum> I opted to not join that LoCo
[13:07] <Pendulum> (this was complicated by the fact that they wanted to publish your full name and location on their website before you could get to the level that let you join the launchpad group.)
[13:16] <mhall119> HakanS: we've gotten some of them
[13:17] <mhall119> the best way to deal with them is to say "If you think it can be done better, show us"
[13:17] <mhall119> we encourage people to "just do it"
[13:17] <mhall119> if they aren't willing to, then we flat out tell them they shouldn't expect anyone else to be willing to on their behalf
[13:18] <mhall119> it usually results in them putting in effort or shutting up about it
[13:29] <YoBoY> HakanS: like I said, yes they accept that, but they are waiting also for a more clear ubuntu-fr member status, it's what we are working on actualy, but it's for active ubuntu-fr members and with a one year renewal, not for all the ubuntu users
[13:30] <YoBoY> each team have to choose carefuly his workflow, depends on the size of the team
[13:32] <YoBoY> our position is also, everyone who want to help can help, it is realy like in the global ubuntu community. each french user can report bugs, contribute to our web apps, help on the forum, write documentation, translate ubuntu, help to the events or organize one...
[14:00] <HakanS> mhall119: But if they continue to criticize? 
[14:13] <mhall119> HakanS: after we tell them that we'd be happy to accept their fixes once they're ready, they stop criticizing
[14:13] <mhall119> I don't think we've had someone persist after that
[14:15] <HakanS> mhall119: I would love to be in your team :)
[14:16] <YoBoY> mhall119: well fixes only work on applications, you can't patch real life, events, decisions :p
[14:17] <HakanS> mhall119: We have some poeple that constantly criticize others for not doing what they want.
[14:18] <YoBoY> HakanS: one thing we are doing also to improve communication in our team is meetings every two month, everyone can add an idea in the agenda and present it, and take the lead of this idea if other people want to put it in practice
[14:19] <HakanS> YuBoY: Thera are great medications that kan patch real life. ;P
[14:21] <HakanS> YoBoY: We have just started having loco meetings. We have had 4 until now.
[14:26] <HakanS> YoBoY: What is your definition of an active loco member?
[14:27] <YoBoY> someone involved in our community or in the ubuntu advocacy
[14:35] <HakanS> YoBoY: Yes, but what does "involve" mean? Giving answers on the forum?
[14:38] <YoBoY> HakanS: yes, if he does it well.
[14:39] <serfus> HakanS, IMO, it's someone who is active and want's the best for the loco, it can be within IRC, the site/forums, events, advertising, programing... really everything which is helpful for the loco
[14:40] <YoBoY> +1
[14:42] <HakanS> YoBoY: In our loco some people think that they are involved when they start endless diskussions, in our forum, about the loco organization.
[14:44] <YoBoY> it's why we don't use the forum to manage our team ^^" forums are not suitable for that activity
[14:45] <YoBoY> too many people to deal with
[14:45] <YoBoY> mailing lists are a great tool for that
[14:46] <HakanS> They think they are acting for the best for the loco when the scream out loud that the loco is a place for lunatics.
[14:49] <YoBoY> HakanS: there is no solution to that, you have to choose to ignore them or invite them to be more active by presenting projects and taking the lead of them.
[14:49] <HakanS> YoBoY: I have tried to take away loco management discussions from the forum. 
[14:53] <HakanS> The problem is that our community has been quite focused on the forum. 
[14:53] <HakanS> I'm trying to change that.
[14:55] <YoBoY> it's not easy. Have you presented this idea in a meeting ? are the others ok to change ?
[14:56] <serfus> HakanS, you should try to get people to join your loco team on launchpad, and start to use to mailing list
[14:57] <YoBoY> be carreful, mailing lists on LP are limited, only peopple with a Launchpad account can participate, they are public, you can't change signature or other messages, ...
[14:57] <HakanS> I have presented it in a meeting, and tried to argue for it. But the others didn´t like it. They want to use the forum for discussions.
[14:59] <YoBoY> if the others don't like it ... you have to stay on the forum 
[15:00] <YoBoY> but perhaps you can put the loco team discussion to a private part of the forum, and members who want to participate have to ask to be involved in the team to gain the access
[15:02] <HakanS> Some have also criticized the IRC loco meetings. They think that it excludes people who do not have time to participate.
[15:05] <HakanS> YoBoT: We have the discussions in a private part of the forum, and members have to ask to gain the access. 
[15:05] <serfus> well, if they don't have time to participate, what are they complaining about? it's their problem
[15:05] <Pendulum> HakanS: do other people show up for meetings?
[15:08] <HakanS> serfus: I have told them. The comic is that the same people who say they can´t sit on a IRC meeting for an hour. Can sit and discuss this for hours on the forum.
[15:08] <HakanS> Pendulum: No
[15:09] <Pendulum> HakanS: So you're the only person who shows up for the IRC meetings?
[15:10] <Pendulum> To me that sounds like a timing issue. Maybe you should run a poll to see what times people could actually attend an IRC meeting
[15:11] <HakanS> Pendulum: No. I thought you meant if it came others than the members to the meeting.
[15:11] <YoBoY> HakanS: for our meetings, people who can't participate can leave comments on the agenda page, and can read the minutes after the meeting.
[15:12] <YoBoY> if they don't have time to participe it's their problem
[15:12] <HakanS> There are 10-15 people on the meetings.
[15:12] <YoBoY> we are doing the meetings at 9pm everyone can participe at this hour normaly
[15:14] <HakanS> We have our meetings at 8.30pm. 
[15:14] <cjohnston> mhall119: I got a 500 error on that link
[16:42] <TrickyJ> Good moning friends
[16:47] <nigelb> mhall119, cjohnston : http://blerg.dominionofawesome.com/doc/
[16:47] <nigelb> (if you haven't seen it already)
[18:47] <sense> paultag: You are aware that Sebastian is not the LoCo Contact of Ubuntu NL, but that I'm the LoCo Contact? The team is owned by Sebastian because he never replies to mails asking or proposing a transfer of ownership.
[18:47] <sense> paultag: Also, we didn't see the vote, as we were told it took place on a private bug.
[18:48] <sense> paultag: Furthermore, the mail you sent to the loco-contacts list doesn't contain much explanations for the rejection. Where can we find those?