[02:55] <deathguppie> so after having gotten my sound problem figured out..
[02:56] <deathguppie> I can't seem to figure out how to use plugins/effexts in ardour because the online manual and the application don't work the same way.
[03:27] <ScottL> deathguppie, do you know what the mixer in ardour is?
[03:29] <ScottL> deathguppie, and which online manual are you using?  there may be a better (or more current) one
[03:30] <ScottL> deathguppie, this is a good page from a new ardour manual that shows plugins in ardour: http://en.flossmanuals.net/Ardour/UsingPlugIns
[11:45] <Submarine> Hi there.
[11:45] <Submarine> I'm running vanilla Ubuntu 10.10 with the -studio packages added on top + a lowlatency kernel
[11:45] <Submarine> any indication as to how to reduce XRUNs?
[12:03] <ScottL> Submarine, have you tried adjusting the JACK settings? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToJACKConfiguration
[12:03] <ScottL> it also depends on your hardware as well
[12:04] <Submarine> mmh
[12:04] <Submarine> playback on internal Intel i8x0
[12:04] <Submarine> recording on external USB card
[12:15] <gordonjcp> Submarine: don't do that, then
[12:15] <gordonjcp> you can't (reliably) mix cards in jack
[12:16] <Submarine> aaah, -S !
[12:16] <Submarine> gordonjcp: I cannot do otherwise easily.
[12:17] <gordonjcp> use alsa_in or alsa_out then
[12:17] <Submarine> uh?
[12:19] <gordonjcp> set up jack to play and record on one card, and use alsa_in to create another set of inputs
[12:32] <Submarine> I think I'm getting lost here.
[12:32] <gordonjcp> you can run another program that will give you a set of jack ports and connect to a physical soundcard
[12:33] <gordonjcp> the problem is, if you are trying to capture and play back on different interfaces the timing between the two cards gets a bit squiffy after a while, because they're not clocked at exactly the same rate
[12:43] <Submarine> mmh
[12:44] <Submarine> also something: I have the impressions things go better with 48 kHz
[12:44] <Submarine> perhaps it's due to the fact that 48 is a multiple of 1 kHz, which is the USB freq
[13:11] <paultag> Submarine: but data exchange does not take an even cycle
[13:12] <paultag> Submarine: so, it becomes a packing problem anyway. It's just placebo effect
[13:13] <paultag> Submarine: and 48 is not a multiple of 1 kHz, you might be thinking divisor or factor
[13:15] <paultag> which I don't get frankly -- 1024 / 48 = 21.3
[13:17] <Submarine> paultag: 48 kHz = 48 x 1 kHz
[13:17] <Submarine> so it means exactly 48 samples per USB cycle
[13:18] <Submarine> IF the sound card synchs its clock to the USB bus (which I don't know whether it does)
[13:18] <paultag> Submarine: ah, I see what you're saying
[13:18] <paultag> Submarine: it's digital
[13:18] <Submarine> then it means always the same isochronous payload per USB cycle
[13:18] <paultag> Submarine: so packets don't take the one cycle
[13:18] <Submarine> uh?
[13:18] <paultag> Submarine: e.g. word size is dynamic iirc
[13:19] <Submarine> word size?
[13:19] <paultag> Submarine: size of the data being transfered
[13:20] <Submarine> in the USB protocols, isochronous endpoints (those used for e.g. sound cards) need some kind of pre-reservation
[13:21] <Submarine> basically, the operating system needs to allocate a certain portion of the 1 ms cycle for such or such type of isochronous payload
[13:21] <paultag> Submarine: it does not matter
[13:21] <paultag> Submarine: USB protocol is not suited for this sort of work -- and the data burst is not consistant from second to second
[13:23] <Submarine> the data burst?
[13:23] <paultag> Submarine: how much data is exchanged betwixt the computer and the USB device
[13:23] <Submarine> it's not consistent?!
[13:26] <Submarine> from what I know of the USB protocol, it is actually very consistenyt
[13:26] <Submarine> but of course, since everything is clocked at 1ms slices
[13:26] <Submarine> then you have at least 1ms latency
[13:38] <scott-work> Submarine: i think what paultag is saying is that although the USB protocol might be consistent the data traveling through it is not
[13:40] <scott-work> Submarine: i don't believe data traveling through jack will syncronize with the USB cycle, therefore jack will try to move data irregardles of the USB cycle
[13:41] <scott-work> Submarine: i don't have a USB audio interface, but it has been discussed somewhat frequently and i believe the general conclusion is that USB 1.0 is not terribly suited for audio work
[13:41] <scott-work> although USB 2.0 has been touted as equivalent, if not better, than firewire
[13:42] <scott-work> i can't comment further as I am rather ignorant about USB 2.0
[13:42] <Submarine> mmh
[13:42] <Submarine> I don't know USB2 - I've only read the USB1.1 spec.
[13:42]  * scott-work was trying to read IRC logs to see what i've missed after leaving for work, but IRC logs aren't updating :(
[14:19] <scott-work> morning paultag, how was skiing?
[14:40] <holstein> paultag: i had that exchange on the mailing list recently
[14:40] <holstein> about USB
[14:42] <holstein> i was saying, go to a pro-studio
[14:42] <holstein> and look around and take note of how many USB interfaces are in use
[15:03] <paultag> hey holstein, scott-work
[15:03] <paultag> sorry, I was out for a bit
[15:03] <paultag> scott-work: skiing was amazing ( as usual ;) )
[15:04] <paultag> scott-work: dude, I had an amazing day yesterday -- I'm going to close out every RC bug against fluxbox on the next upload, and packaged a fix for a DD buddy of mine. I'm on a roll
[15:07] <paultag> scott-work: also, yes, that's what I was trying to say to Submarine, but the morning coffee had not kicked in yet ;)
[15:08] <paultag> so I mumbled and sounded dumb as hell ;)
[15:28] <Submarine> Is LinuxSampler any good?
[15:28] <Submarine> qsampler crashes on startup...
[15:32] <gordonjcp> apparently linuxsampler is good
[15:32] <gordonjcp> I couldn't figure out how to use it
[15:32] <holstein> Submarine: several linuxsampler folk in #opensourcemusicians
[15:33] <gordonjcp> I keep meaning to join that channel
[15:34] <holstein> there was a lot of talk over there about it recently
[15:34] <holstein> several trying to make vitrual instruments
[15:34] <gordonjcp> in linuxsampler, or standalone?
[15:35] <Submarine> I currently use Yoshimi and Qsynth (FluidSynth)
[15:35] <Submarine> and Hydrogen
[15:35] <Submarine> any opinion about other possible tools?
[15:35] <gordonjcp> nekobee, nekostring ;-)
[15:35] <gordonjcp> don't get too used to them, there's a big update looming for both
[15:36] <gordonjcp> one critical change is that external control won't suck in the future
[15:36]  * gordonjcp rarely uses softsynths any more
[15:36] <holstein> gordonjcp: sampling was what came up
[15:36] <holstein> and linux sampler was suggested
[15:36] <gordonjcp> holstein: ah
[15:37] <holstein> to make the instrument
[15:37] <gordonjcp> I didn't get on with Linuxsampler at all
[15:37] <holstein> yeah, i tried once
[15:37] <holstein> i might try again though
[15:37] <holstein> with the OSMP folk
[15:37] <holstein> someone was planning on making some tutorials
[15:37] <holstein> that would help
[15:42] <gordonjcp> ye
[15:42] <gordonjcp> I found a good solution
[15:42] <gordonjcp> solved my sampling problems instantly
[15:42] <gordonjcp> I bought an ESI-4000 for £100 and stuck 128M into it
[16:10] <holstein> gordonjcp: specimen is easy
[16:12] <gordonjcp> holstein: yeah, I like specimen
[16:12] <holstein> nice for a quick sample
[16:18] <scott-work> paultag:  congrats on fixing all the bugs against fluxbox, i think once ubuntu studio gets more stable for natty i'm going to play with it
[16:21] <Submarine> what are the differences between installing the UbuntuStudio distro and installing the normal Ubuntu + ubuntustudio-audio package?
[16:21] <holstein> Submarine: very little
[16:21] <holstein> in theory, they can both be the same
[16:21] <holstein> IF you take the time to configure them to be like the other
[16:21] <holstein> ubuntu = ubuntustudio
[16:22] <holstein> ubuntustudio out of the box has lots of packages added
[16:22] <Submarine> I mean, does UbuntuStudio 10.10 ship with a special kernel?
[16:22] <holstein> and several taken away
[16:22] <holstein> Submarine: realtime kernel?
[16:22] <holstein> we cant ship with the realtime kernel anymore
[16:22] <holstein> since 10.10
[16:22] <holstein> till probably 12.04
[16:23] <holstein> Submarine: you can add the one from natty *if* you need it
[16:23] <Submarine> that's what I did, I added the lowlatency kernel
[16:23] <Submarine> I'm unsure about differences
[16:23] <holstein> the plan is that the generic kernel will be appropriate for our needs
[16:23] <holstein> soon
[16:23] <scott-work> i wouldn't expect an actual "real time" kernel to ever ship with ubuntu studio again
[16:24] <holstein> Submarine: do you use rakarrack? or other realtime effects?
[16:24] <scott-work> however we should be able to get the -lowlatency kernel either in natty or the next release
[16:24] <holstein> do you plan on using software synthesisers live Submarine ?
[16:24] <holstein> scott-work: yeah, -lowlatency
[16:25] <holstein> if you have -lowlatency kernel in 10.10 Submarine
[16:25] <holstein> thats probably the best for RT purposes
[16:26] <Submarine> holstein: I'm tempted to
[16:26] <Submarine> but I currently have the following problem
[16:26] <Submarine> my good quality audio acquisition cards are USB
[16:27] <holstein> right
[16:27] <holstein> kernel wont help that
[16:27] <holstein> maybe IRQ settings
[16:27] <holstein> if you can
[16:27] <holstein> ive tried both those kernels
[16:27] <holstein> the natty ones
[16:28] <holstein> in natty, with my firewire device
[16:28] <holstein> and the -lowlatency one is great
[16:28] <holstein> arguably better than the perfomance im getting with -realtime in 10.04
[16:28] <holstein> at least as good though *
[16:29] <Submarine> if I only use the internal sound card, which is fine if I do only playback
[16:29] <holstein> Submarine: what are you expecting from USB ?
[16:29] <holstein> latency-wise?
[16:29] <Submarine> well
[16:29] <Submarine> I have to experiment more
[16:29] <Submarine> so far I was running jackd2
[16:29] <holstein> i would consider anything near 10ms nice
[16:29] <Submarine> and only lately I discovered that jackd2 by default starts in asynchronous mode
[16:29] <holstein> 20ms would probably be what i would expect from a USB device
[16:29] <Submarine> and this mode tends to behave badly
[16:30] <holstein> i have different JACK profiles
[16:30] <holstein> i have a mixing profile which is 60ms or so
[16:30] <holstein> i have a normal one thats around 5ms
[16:31] <holstein> and a live one with 2.4ms or os
[16:31] <holstein> so*
[16:31] <Submarine> yes, but you need to restart Jack every time?
[16:31] <holstein> sure
[16:31] <Submarine> is there a way to change settings w/o restarting Jack?
[16:31] <holstein> its got a button
[16:31] <holstein> stop
[16:31] <holstein> start
[16:31] <holstein> no big deal
[16:31] <Submarine> yes, but then all clients disconnect and some don't auto reconnect
[16:31] <holstein> thats why i have a modest in between setting
[16:32] <holstein> for my workflow
[16:33] <holstein> its not a problem
[16:33] <Submarine> well, for the internal sound card, I have 5.3 ms latency
[16:33] <Submarine> perhaps I could go below but I already get xruns
[16:33] <Submarine> I'm unsure why
[16:33] <holstein> 11ms is fine
[16:33] <holstein> if you feel 11 is too low
[16:33] <Submarine> external I have 32 ms
[16:33] <Submarine> but maybe I could go below
[16:33] <holstein> scoot your chair forward closer to the speakers ;)
[16:34] <Submarine> I'll have to experiment
[16:34] <Submarine> external is a setup with USB as input and onboard as output
[16:34] <holstein> Submarine: totally depends on what you need to do
[16:34] <holstein> if your just overdubbing in ardour
[16:34] <Submarine> record guitar
[16:34] <Submarine> so far I'm not using effects directly
[16:34] <Submarine> record vocals too
[16:34] <holstein> doesnt really matter what the latency is
[16:35] <holstein> ardour adjusts that
[16:35] <holstein> you can set it to 60mx
[16:35] <Submarine> I'm using Rosegarden
[16:35] <holstein> you can set it to 60ms*
[16:35] <Submarine> I could perhaps use Ardour instead...
[16:35] <holstein> Submarine: RG for?
[16:35] <holstein> recording audio?
[16:35] <Submarine> midi + audio
[16:35] <holstein> if you're wanting to play a midi controller
[16:35] <holstein> keyboard or whatever
[16:35] <Submarine> maybe I should use Ardour and keep RG as a slave
[16:35] <holstein> 11ms is what i think would be the minimum
[16:36] <holstein> BUT
[16:36] <holstein> you can fire up JACK and the external rig
[16:36] <holstein> track what you want
[16:36] <holstein> at like 60ms
[16:36] <holstein> then switch to the internal
[16:36] <holstein> and go down to 5
[16:36] <holstein> do your midi
[16:36] <holstein> with the midi
[16:37] <holstein> you're not taking advantage of the arguably cleaner input
[16:37] <holstein> of the USB device
[16:37] <holstein> and the output will be fine
[16:37] <holstein> and thats not going to tape anyways
[16:38] <Submarine> I'm not using external MIDI input much
[16:38] <Submarine> and anyway, MIDI is a slow serial protocol, isn't it?
[16:38] <holstein> doesnt matter
[16:39] <holstein> its not doing much
[16:39] <Submarine> (this is an old MIDI keyboard with the real MIDI wiring, not firewire)
[16:39] <holstein> the DATA is small for midi
[16:39] <holstein> but, you use the USB device to route the midi controller?
[16:39] <Submarine> it's another USB device
[16:40] <holstein> cool
[16:40] <Submarine> it's a old-style-midi to USB converter
[16:40] <holstein> so you can get away with using the internal card
[16:40] <holstein> and the lower latency
[16:40] <holstein> with the controller
[16:40] <holstein> in that scenario
[16:40] <holstein> everything that is going to tape
[16:40] <Submarine> but the 32ms isn't that annoying for recording?
[16:40] <holstein> is generated by the computer anyways
[16:40] <holstein> Submarine: set it to 60 or so
[16:41] <holstein> and see
[16:41] <holstein> it *should* time align
[16:41] <holstein> in ardour
[16:41] <holstein> ardour*
[16:41] <holstein> hehe
[16:41] <holstein> i spelled it right
[16:41] <holstein> just looked funny
[16:42] <Submarine> I should try Ardour instead of Rosegarden then
[16:42] <Submarine> does Ardour use Jack transport? if it does, then it syncs Rosegarden anyway
[16:42] <holstein> well, its a matter of the right tool for the job i think
[16:42] <holstein> IF you're doing audio recording in linux
[16:43] <holstein> ardour is the tool
[16:43] <holstein> multitrack audio
[16:43] <Submarine> now how about mixing?
[16:43] <holstein> yup
[16:43] <holstein> mixing too
[16:43] <Submarine> does Ardour do mixing + LADSPA / DSSI plugins?
[16:43] <holstein> sure
[16:43] <holstein> and ardour uses JACK
[16:43] <holstein> so anything in JACK can be used
[16:43] <holstein> while tracking
[16:43] <holstein> or mixing
[16:44] <Submarine> then I should probably try Ardour + Rosegarden as a slave for the MIDI part
[16:44] <holstein> sure
[16:44] <holstein> or build a testing verion of ardour with MIDI support
[16:44] <holstein> i wouldnt expect it to work well though
[16:44] <holstein> for a while
[16:46] <holstein> ardour 3 is in https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/lucid-latest
[16:46] <holstein> but i wouldnt take that lightly
[16:46] <holstein> if you dont have ppa purge ability
[16:47] <holstein> eitherway, be cautious
[16:47] <Submarine> mmmh
[16:47] <Submarine> yalking about multiple applications
[16:47] <Submarine> one thing that's not foolproof if is you use several applications, then configurations have to be kept in sync
[16:47] <Submarine> I mean, you have to fire them all, watch for Jack to connect properly
[16:47] <Submarine> and load all the presets
[16:48] <Submarine> is there some tool that helps in loading/saving entire presets?
[16:48] <holstein> i just connect all my jack stuff
[16:48] <holstein> each time
[16:48] <holstein> i like to see it
[16:48] <holstein> i consider that a feature
[16:48] <holstein> BUT
[16:48] <holstein> there is ladish
[16:48] <Submarine> yes, but all the drums, etc.
[16:48] <holstein> yup
[16:48] <holstein> a feature :)
[16:49] <holstein> http://www.ohloh.net/p/ladish
[16:49] <holstein> but i hear you
[16:49] <holstein> i just remember firing up cubase in XP
[16:49] <holstein> and not even realizing there was an alternative
[16:49] <holstein> where i could route whatever i want
[16:49] <holstein> where ever i want
[16:55] <Submarine> I used to run Cubase on 2000.
[16:55] <Submarine> Then I had to upgrade the computer, and realized that Cubase and Vista don't mix
[16:55] <Submarine> or maybe I would have to upgrade Cubase or I don't know
[16:56] <holstein> yup
[16:56] <Submarine> I had never tried the Linux alternatives, even though I run Linux since 1997
[16:56] <Submarine> well, I had tried them back then but nothing worked
[16:56] <holstein> its come a long way
[17:01] <paultag> scott-work: let me know if you have issues :)