[00:41] <Pici> ...
[00:41] <gpc> » » »
[00:42] <rww> dear lord richthegeek is not good at the concept of "stop"
[00:42] <rww> (and yes, that appears to have been a significant factor last time around too)
[00:43] <Pici> (I had a feeling)
[01:24] <maco> Pici: do i banforward avenge now?
[01:24] <Pici> maco: I don't know what that was
[01:49] <rww> it was unamerican activities.
[01:54] <gpc> wish the loco channels were all +F
[01:55] <bazhang> naming debian after soap products?
[01:55] <gpc> Debian Snuggles
[01:56] <gpc> Debian Tide w/Bleach
[01:56] <bazhang> debain wretch
[01:57] <Jordan_U> Did anyone else just see kolo able to talk after being quieted in #ubuntu?
[01:57] <bazhang> nope
[01:57] <gpc> nope
[01:57] <bazhang> preceded it by a few nanoseconds
[01:57] <Jordan_U> I wonder why it appeared so in my client.
[01:57] <bazhang> laaaaag
[02:01] <Jordan_U> Lag in my connection would explain why my +q happened so late after I actually /aq'd, but doesn't quite explain why messages from kolo came after the message that he'd been quieted.
[02:01] <bazhang> I saw none, just one letter somewhat nearby
[02:01] <gpc> best to not dwell on such things
[02:02] <gpc> will only drive you crazy
[02:02] <rww> lag between servers, not lag between your client and the server
[02:02] <gpc> see what it has done to rww
[02:02] <gpc> he actually knows the reason
[02:03] <Jordan_U> "If it wasn't for my horse I never would have made it through that year in college"
[02:03] <maco> how long do you boil udon?
[02:03] <gpc> udon boil it
[02:03] <gpc> what is udon? /me googles
[02:03] <rww> @lart gpc
[02:03]  * gpc forces me to use /me on me
[02:04] <maco> gpc: noodles
[02:04] <gpc> oh
[02:04] <gpc> till they are done, I would assume much like pasta
[02:05] <maco> looking for a ballpark though...
[02:05] <rww> udone **
[02:05] <gpc> if they are fresh (not frozen or dry) not for very long 1-2 minutes
[02:05] <rww> you cook pasta for 2 minutes?!
[02:05] <bazhang> if that
[02:05] <gpc> fresh pasta yes
[02:05] <rww> what
[02:05] <gpc> if the water is at a rolling boil
[02:05] <bazhang> roiling
[02:05] <gpc> roiling lol
[02:06] <maco> these are dry
[02:06] <bazhang> 'gan mien'
[02:06] <gpc> maco 5-7 minutes ball park
[02:06] <maco> stopped at the korean market on "get stuff to stock brand new apartment" the day i moved in
[02:06] <maco> gpc: ok thanks
[02:06] <maco> its been like...6mo since i last made udon
[02:06] <rww> oh, not dry. huh.
[02:06] <gpc> but soon as they look done, try one and you will know
[02:06] <maco> i know soba is 5 minutes
[02:07]  * persia tends to soak it in boiled (not boiling) water for 3 minutes
[02:09] <maco> apparently putting the bullion cube in after the water boils makes it sputter
[02:09] <maco> i wont be doing that again...
[02:09] <rww> This conversation is confusing me. I'm going back to my harry potter fanfiction.
[02:09] <gpc> hehe
[02:09] <maco> huh. why have i never bought miso paste? this doesnt make sense.
[02:10] <gpc> well look at that, roiling.
[02:10]  * gpc learned me something new today.
[02:10] <bazhang> you doubted?
[02:11] <gpc> I didn't
[02:11] <gpc> I needed explaining
[02:11] <rww> I keep trying to read gpc as "General Protection F... meh".
[02:12]  * persia idly wonders if it makes sense to have a special channel to discuss debian naming conventions, japanese cooking, and people's nicknames
[02:13] <rww> if only there were an offtopic channel for the Ubuntu namespace... >.>
[02:13] <Jordan_U> #ubuntu-optopic?
[02:13] <maco> but the person who lives in japan *looks at persia* isnt in the offtopic channel
[02:13] <maco> (i think)
[02:14] <persia> There's a reason for that :p
[02:14]  * maco tries to tab him
[02:14] <maco> right yeah, not there
[02:14] <rww> gpc: anyways. I kinda wished they were too, except that then I realized that that would be yet another rule being pushed on LoCo channels, and also easily-abusable.
[02:14] <rww> although, was the old freenode behavior essentially all channels being +F? I forget.
[02:15] <marienz> I think so, yes
[02:15] <gpc> rww: yeah, but there has to be some way of making it so a Parent Channel can forward to Child Channel. something like a namespace forward I guess
[02:15] <persia> I'm really not sure that's ideal.
[02:16] <persia> There's many times when we want to send someone to a LoCo channel, but forcing them there seems less freindly.
[02:16] <gpc> there would be less abuse I would hope
[02:16] <gpc> there are many times that no matter how much we try to explain how to get to the LoCo channel the user just does not get it
[02:16] <rww> persia: more friendly than +qing them because they don't understand the concept of "no $lang in #ubuntu" after 10 minutes of trying :(
[02:17] <persia> rww, I don't think so.  I think the /query has a personal flavour which folk appreciate.
[02:17] <persia> I also think the wealth of !cc factoids help direct folk
[02:17] <gpc> I forced forward will be "unfriendly" at first but then the user will realize where they are and I hope understand.
[02:17] <bazhang> unless its usuario
[02:18] <gpc> s/I/A/
[02:18] <persia> Consider that the user may be using IRC for the first time, and Ubuntu for the first time, and have no idea what happened: force-forwarding them may cause them to expect that to happen again, which ends up for more work for #ubuntu ops.
[02:19] <gpc> so us being forced to +q the user where all they see is a message in English telling them They can't send to channel is better?
[02:19] <rww> persia: good point
[02:19] <gpc>  a gentle kick in the butt to the correct channel is less annoying then not understanding why they aren't getting any help at all
[02:20] <rww> reminds me of the people that think the way to get to their channel is to /join #ubuntu, type #ubuntu-cc, and then click it.
[02:20] <persia> gpc, Well, if we've done the l10n work correctly in the clients, the message isn't in English.
[02:20] <persia> rww, Some of those folk are autojoining #ubuntu because of default client config
[02:21] <persia> Might be worth trying to define some master list of #ubuntu-cc channels, and configuring all the clients to reference this list to send people to appropriate local channels rather than #ubuntu by default.  Of course, this presupposes the channels are staffed, etc.
[02:21] <rww> persia: either way, typing channels and clicking the typed name is suboptimal. is why I'm glad that an increasing number of !cc factoids have "type /join #ubuntu-cc to join"
[02:21] <gpc> why can't the client config be set to join the proper -country channel?
[02:21] <persia> gpc, Staffing, reliability, coverage, etc.
[02:22] <rww> also, I believe that LP bug on #ubuntu being too big had part of this discussion
[02:22] <persia> Some LoCo channels only get traffic a couple hours a week.
[02:22] <gpc> or join both #ubuntu and -loco
[02:23] <persia> Might be confusing for new folk for some clients, especially folk who are connecting the first time, and may not understand there are two channels.
[02:24] <gpc> So we are back to a new user being forced to an English channel where they get hit with !cc and don't understand what to do with it.
[02:24] <maco> i keep reading !cc as being a factoid about the Community Council
[02:24] <bazhang> hah
[02:25] <maco> oh good the power came back on
[02:25] <persia> Fine.  Is "!${CC}" better?
[02:27] <persia> gpc, Unfortunately, there's no good solution, really.  The best I've ever heard involves 1) creating some staffing requirements catalog to be on a whitelist of LoCo channels, 2) refactoring the code of every IRC client to use a shared whitelist for first login, and 3) maintaining and monitoring this mess in a way that keeps everyone motivated.
[02:27] <persia> Even that only covers a subset
[02:29] <gpc> there is a good solution. add a feature to the ircd where all ops of channels in namespace can forward to any other channel in namespace
[02:29] <gpc> the ops can be trusted to not abuse this feature right?
[02:30] <persia> Not all ops for all channels, sadly.
[02:30] <persia> And further, it doesn't help the users to learn how not to require operator time
[02:30] <rww> I'm an op in #trollpit. I /join #ubuntu-rginoigfno, register it, +f it to #ubuntu, op up, and +f #trollpit to #ubuntu-rginoigfno
[02:30] <rww> assuming +f is transitive. I've never checked
[02:31] <gpc> group contact of namespace has to approve creation of #ubuntu-trollpit
[02:31] <persia> No it doesn't.
[02:31] <gpc> to prevent abuse
[02:31] <persia> group contact of namespace may request uncreation of #ubuntu-trollpit
[02:31] <gpc> yes it should
[02:31] <bazhang> that's a channel rww ?
[02:31] <rww> bazhang: probably not. I pressed random keys.
[02:32]  * persia has created 5 or 6 #ubuntu-foo channels, and never had to go through any approval procedures (although they were all justified, and I informed the IRCC, etc.)
[02:32] <gpc> to avoid problems you stop it at the source, you don't wait for it to become an issue and then fix it.
[02:32] <gpc> persia: I am saying if there were such a feature as I described above
[02:32] <persia> Having to go through namespace contacts would so hugely get in my way for some things.
[02:33] <rww> and also be yet another hoop/rule for LoCo channels to have to deal with. we're trying to encourage them, not scare them off with orders.
[02:33] <persia> The last channel I created, I created to stop an argument: any delay would have been bad.  It now usually has a population of 30-50, and is relatively calm.
[02:34] <gpc> ok so #channel-foo can be created but can't forward until approved
[02:34] <persia> I still don't think forwarding most users really helps them.
[02:35] <gpc> you don't issue !cc 60 times a day
[02:35] <gpc> perhaps
[02:35] <bazhang> there are only a tiny number of users that refuse knowingly to join their respective channels
[02:36] <persia> Indeed (and no, I only issue !cc 3-5 times a week)
[02:36] <bazhang> so imo, /msg the ordinary ones , as the channel scrolls by so fast for many to read
[02:36] <gpc> correct, but for that tiny few who don't "get it" it would be useful
[02:37] <bazhang> the really hardcore abusers usually get killed by idoru anyway
[02:38] <bazhang> kolo never did join #ubuntu-pl from what I can see
[02:39] <bazhang> he seems to be /msg'ing floodbot1 though
[04:35] <gpc> DaGeek247: How can we help you?
[04:35] <DaGeek247> oh, i dont need help
[04:36] <gpc> ok, then
[04:36] <gpc> ...
[06:46] <Hobbsee> knome: as for why i'ts allowed in our repos, it's
[06:46] <Hobbsee> "because no one has complained loud enough in debian for it to be removed"
[06:47] <persia> Erm, that's not the only reason.
[06:47] <persia> There's oodles of stuff in the repos that was never in Debian.
[06:48] <Hobbsee> true that, but it's an autosync from debian
[06:50] <persia> Yeah, well.
[06:53] <elky> it's pretty much a guarantee that the complaints after its removal will be much greater.
[06:58] <persia> The trivial solution is some string changes to avoid worrisome words.
[06:59] <persia> Much like the hotbabe applet ended up being renamed and getting skinnable graphics, and then being acceptable.
[07:19] <topyli> there are probably numerous packages to change/remove if we go that route. what about jack the ripper for example?
[07:19] <topyli> very useful, and can be misused
[07:20] <topyli> where does it end? emacs?
[07:20] <bazhang> hehe
[07:20] <persia> topyli, You mean the "jack" package?  The description there seems perfectly reasonable.
[07:20] <Tm_T> emacs is evil
[07:21] <topyli> grr i typed !jack in my shell. i irc too much
[07:21] <elky> lol
[07:22] <topyli> persia: apparently i don't mean jack
[07:23] <persia> What is "jack the ripper" then?
[07:23]  * persia thought it was the old name of the "jack" package, before it was cleaned up
[07:23] <topyli> john :)
[07:23] <Jordan_U> persia: Jack the Ripper: nothing appropriate.
[07:23] <topyli> !info john
[07:24] <bazhang> john the ripper
[07:24] <persia> topyli, That clearly states "... a tool designed to help systems administrators to find weak ... passwords ...", which is key to ensuring your systems are secure.
[07:24] <topyli> it does say admin yes
[07:25] <persia> The key is phrasing and presentation.  The same code can be a 1337 7001 or a systems management essential.
[07:25] <elky> You can't approach things differently to black hat and think you're going to succeed as a white hat
[07:26] <persia> Yes you can.  The PR team for white hats describe things clearly.  The PR team for black hats provide obfuscation and deniability.
[07:26] <persia> Mind you, the code and engineering practices are the same.
[07:26] <elky> that's not approach...
[07:26]  * topyli goes through packages mentioning 'crack' :)
[07:31] <topyli> the description of fcrackzip is neutral. 'able to crack password protected zip files with brute force...' ophcrack is similar, just tells you what it does. sipcrack is similar
[07:32] <topyli> aircrack-ng actually has the most whitehatted description :)
[08:02] <bazhang> Garzooka, hi
[08:03] <Garzooka> hello
[08:03] <bazhang> Garzooka, thanks for joining; you are currently +q in #ubuntu after being repeatedly asked to stay on topic, and not doing so.
[08:03]  * Garzooka is only 14 years old
[08:03]  * rww sighs
[08:03] <Garzooka> I have established that
[08:04] <bazhang> Garzooka, and  you know that #ubuntu is support only, correct?
[08:04] <Garzooka> correct
[08:04] <bazhang> Garzooka, so why continue on with the offtopic chat when repeatedly asked to stop
[08:06] <Garzooka> I was going to stop after that last off topic line that I said
[08:06] <bazhang> Garzooka, you stated clearly in the channel that you don't even use Ubuntu.
[08:06] <Garzooka> yeah but I like to help or attempt to help
[08:06] <bazhang> Garzooka, and as you don't use Ubuntu, and are only offtopic in #ubuntu , was a reason you needed to join there?
[08:07] <bazhang> Garzooka, being offtopic constantly is not a help, nor even an attempt to help. it's a busy channel and that just creates more noise.
[08:08] <Garzooka> to be able to use #ubuntu freely, because sometimes I do actually solve peoples issues
[08:08] <bazhang> Garzooka, I have yet to see an instance of you solving anyone's issues.
[08:08]  * Garzooka is autistic and is 14
[08:09] <rww> neither of which in any way excuse your behavior
[08:10] <Garzooka> well a few days ago in #freenode I helped someone, and in #windows I have helped people
[08:10] <bazhang> Garzooka, thats fine.
[08:11] <bazhang> Garzooka, as you no longer use Ubuntu, and cannot credibly stay on topic in #ubuntu , then is there a real reason for you to join there?
[08:11] <bazhang> gah
[08:11] <rww> popey: If I remember correctly, the above conversation is relevant to #ubuntu-uk's ops.
[08:12] <Tm_T> yup
[08:12] <bazhang> well I tried; first PM then asked him to come here.
[08:12] <Tm_T> also, I fail to see anything "autistic" on his behaviour
[08:12] <bazhang> his response to why he was offtopic constantly: "I wanted to see what would happen"
[08:13] <Garzooka> sorry I lost signal
[08:14] <hypatia> Garzooka: you're plenty old enough at 14 to understand that when someone asks you to stop something because it's outside the rules for a channel, that you should stop it
[08:14] <Garzooka> its what I do, I help people and sometimes forget what channel I am in
[08:15] <Garzooka> I know you see sometimes I just want to send one more off topic line then I stop
[08:15] <hypatia> Garzooka: so slow down, check what channel you're in
[08:16] <Garzooka> thats what I did right after I got +q
[08:18] <Garzooka> and now I feel realy annoyed
[08:19] <Garzooka> and need to come to a solution
[08:20] <bazhang> Garzooka, thats fine.
[08:20] <bazhang> Garzooka, as you have trouble knowing what channel you're in, now would be a good time to take a break from #ubuntu
[08:20]  * Garzooka has a bad feeling that his #ubuntu-uk ban may take longer then he wants it to
[08:21] <Garzooka> I have I am not even in the channel
[08:21] <bazhang> Garzooka, okay that's fine.
[08:22] <Garzooka> I am starting to get fed up
[08:22] <Garzooka> with all this +q you banned stuff
[08:22] <bazhang> Garzooka, then best learn to follow channel rules.
[08:22] <Garzooka> its annoying,
[08:22] <hypatia> Garzooka: you might want to consider modifying the behavior which got you banned, then
[08:22] <rww> this ^
[08:23] <bazhang> okay, I'm stepping back, thanks.
[08:23] <Garzooka> you see I want to be able to use irc freely and come to a solution todat
[08:24] <Garzooka> taday
[08:24] <Garzooka> today
[08:24] <rww> At some point, instead of dodging responsibility for your actions by ban-evading or mentioning your demographics or claiming you have a vast array of scripts that mimic problematic user behavior, etc., you should consider actually changing your behavior.
[08:24] <Garzooka> be sides I am aproching school now
[08:24] <Garzooka> I HAVE changed
[08:24] <Garzooka> you just dont know that
[08:25] <rww> The scrollback in #ubuntu does not agree with this claim.
[08:25] <Garzooka> anyway at school now seeya this afternoon
[08:25] <rww> Anyway, it's my bed time. 'night.
[09:00]  * popey sighs
[09:02] <Tm_T> somehow I feel happy that I didn't used IRC in my early years (:
[09:06] <jussi> As per my -irc ML post of about 30 seconds ago....
[09:06] <jussi> !+ubuntu+1
 $curDevelLong is the codename for Ubuntu $curDevelNum - $curDevel is NOT released and is NOT stable - Discussion and support only in #ubuntu+1
[09:06] <jussi> New bot features FTW :)
[09:12]  * popey chuckles at jussis mail
[09:12] <popey> every time someone uses the phrase "went ahead" or "go ahead" it just makes me think of Office Space
[09:12] <popey> personal issue, sorry :)
[09:20] <Tm_T> popey: we love other's personal issues (:)
[09:20] <popey> \o/
[09:25] <jussi> :D
[09:57] <popey> Further to the recent discussions about askubuntu and its "officialness" for mentioning in topics / factoids. I just noticed whilst filing a bug on launchpad that in the dialog where you put a description it suggests that if it's not a bug but a question then use answers.lp.net or askubuntu.com
[09:59] <tsimpson> for me "official" (generally) means it's listed on http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community
[10:02]  * popey files a bug to get that done
[10:05] <Tm_T> jolly good
[10:05] <popey> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content/+bug/708540
[10:05] <popey> done
[10:39] <ikonia> where is the change control and discussion about implimenting new features in ubottu
[10:40] <Tm_T> #ubuntu-bots-devel I would suppose
[10:40] <Tm_T> or -team
[10:40] <ikonia> unacceptable
[10:40] <ikonia> unacceptable
[10:40] <ikonia> it should be discussed on the mailing list and at council meetings before being put live into the ubuntu name space
[10:41] <ikonia> I disagree with the feature add, I am fed up of the double standards
[10:41] <ikonia> I "don't" disagree with the feature add I should say
[11:15] <topyli> ikonia: how does this feature make your life harder?
[11:17] <topyli> all developers are required to contact you if they add features their software. if you're interested in bot development, you're free to pay attention to what the developers do
[11:17]  * persia prefers separation of oversight of tool users and tool developers, to create implicit tension and incentives to meet targets.
[11:18] <topyli> if a change fundamentally affects our work, i'm sure it'll be discussed
[11:23] <persia> Indeed, and the fear of that makes the bot devs more likely to choose implementations of new features so that we don't notice any regressions.
[11:28] <BajK_> eh, what's this again -.-
[11:35] <topyli> apparently bajk is forwarded here from #ubuntu by maco, for an inappropriate quit message
[11:41] <Tm_T> yup
[11:41] <ikonia> topyli: sorry was away from keyboard, it doesn't make my life harder at all, I fully support it, I just don't agree with the implimentation to live without consultation, everything else has to go through the council, through the mailing lists, why is the bot features different
[11:41] <ikonia> topyli: it was agreed that bot features would not go live without agreement again after the ubottu messaging the channel feature that got put in and then removed
[11:42] <jrib> but I just saw bajk in #ubuntu
[11:42] <jrib> actually, he's there now
[11:43] <ikonia> BajK_: be with you in just a moment
[11:43] <topyli> jrib: #kubuntu, sorry
[11:43] <jrib> topyli: ah
[11:43] <BajK_> okay
[11:43] <ikonia> topyli: won't hurt to explain either
[11:43] <ikonia> BajK_: just wanted to ask you to change your quit/part message, you got ban forwarded from the #kubuntu channel as it's a bit offensive
[11:44] <ikonia> hence why you ended up here and then had to join #ubuntu instead of #kubuntu
[11:44] <BajK_> ikonia: my quit message? doesn't this revert to default?
[11:44] <BajK_> when I use the uttons to part/quit?
[11:44] <ikonia> 15:56 -!- BajK_ [~quassel@HSI-KBW-078-042-050-068.hsi3.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Quit: Stupid IRC and fucking Bots.]
[11:44] <ikonia> that one
[11:44] <ikonia> if you could remove that from your setup / not use that sort of language/content again, it would be appreciated
[11:45] <BajK_> I did that manually using /quit since those stupid floodbots are so damn annoying and I couldnt do anything about it since this stone-age IRC protocol splits long messages up into other ones which triggers the spambot and, yeah.
[11:45] <BajK_> but it should be "Quassel - chat comfortably, anywhere" since this is the default setup then
[11:45] <ikonia> ok - so could you please not use that sort of language or content in any form in the Ubuntu IRC name space please.
[11:46] <BajK_> sure
[11:46] <BajK_> sorry for boterhing
[11:46] <ikonia> ok, I'll remove the ban forward from #kubuntu for you
[11:46] <BajK_> thx
[11:46] <ikonia> you're welcome to re-join #kubuntu now, but please try to keep your language and content in mind
[11:49] <ikonia> BajK_: you're also welcome to leave this channel now, but thank you for joining and resolving this
[11:50] <BajK_> yep, was just busy writing a bug report, bye
[12:13] <bazhang> ugh my chanserv py chokes on death^
[12:15] <bazhang> if someone else wants to take a look, feel free
[12:16] <bazhang> death^> bazhang, sorry what is the topic again ? yesterday i smoked some kind of heavy buds, it was like rm -rf
[12:21] <bazhang> may want to keep an eye on -ot as its moved there
[12:40] <Tm_T> ...that didn't go well
[12:40] <ikonia> topyli: if you want him back in the channel, you can remove the ban at your lesure
[12:47] <gp5st> why was i banned from #ubuntu?
[12:47] <gp5st> last i as there i asked a question, then realized i was told wrong and i had a debian vm not an ubuntu one and moved over to the right irc channel
[12:58] <ikonia> I thought I'd removed that, apologies
[12:59] <ikonia> fixed now
[14:37] <bazhang> ugh
[15:01] <h00k> bazhang: I concur
[16:29] <ikonia> can we please look at closing #ubuntu-uds ?
[16:31] <Pici> ikonia: Is it active?
[16:31] <ikonia> it's open to join with people in, but no activity
[16:32]  * jpds files under 'Mostly Harmless'.
[16:32] <ikonia> it's not the end of the world
[16:32] <ikonia> totally harmless, just seems right to close it until use
[16:44]  * Pici talks to biiter
[16:46] <charlie-tca> just got to open #ubuntu-uds again in a couple of months ;-)
[21:28] <bazhang> trolling multiple channels
[21:30] <Pici> bazhang: then I won't waste my time with him.  Thanks.
[21:30] <bazhang> Pici, -v in #defocus then went on a rampage
[21:31] <guntbert> just for your info: natt got himself quieted in #freenode and devoiced in #defocus....
[21:31] <bazhang> guntbert, yep thanks! :)
[21:32] <guntbert> you're welcome :-)
[21:33] <bazhang> * natt has quit (K-Lined)
[21:43] <bazhang> windows releases in iso?
[21:46] <Jordan_U> bazhang: MSDN network (legally)
[21:46] <bazhang> Jordan_U, yep. wonder if thats where philip_ got his
[21:46] <Jordan_U> Doubt it ;)