[02:58] <sebsebseb> nisshh: well we just talked about this else where, and I thought, let's join to see who's in here still and such
[02:58] <sebsebseb> first time for me in here since uhmm 2010 some time
[02:58] <nisshh> sebsebseb, sorry dude, but i really have to go clean out my gutters :)
[02:58] <sebsebseb> nisshh: yes I know
[02:59] <nisshh> im not joking
[02:59] <nisshh> itll take me 4 hours
[03:01] <godbyk> nisshh: cleaning out the gutters is no fun.
[03:01] <nisshh> godbyk, especially not in 38 C heat :)
[03:01] <godbyk> nisshh: I had to shovel some snow earlier today.  hopefully it'll continue melting, though. :)
[03:01] <nisshh> and its not even at its peak yet
[03:02] <godbyk> nisshh: yeah, it's hovering around 0 C here at the moment.
[03:02] <godbyk> Warmest it's been in a few weeks.
[03:02] <nisshh> ok bbl
[03:02] <nisshh> cya
[03:02] <godbyk> see ya, nisshh
[03:03] <godbyk> Hey, sebsebseb. So what's up?
[03:03] <sebsebseb> godbyk: not much
[03:04] <sebsebseb> godbyk: also your name seems a little familur maybe
[03:04] <sebsebseb> IRC nick
[03:04] <godbyk> sebsebseb: We've spoken before, I'm sure.
[03:04] <sebsebseb> yeah maybe
[03:04] <godbyk> I recall you attended some of the ubuntu manual meetings, at least.
[03:05] <godbyk> I don't recall if you worked on translations or not.
[03:05] <sebsebseb> yeah I have been  around in the channel before, when chat about the manual and benjamin was here and such
[03:05] <godbyk> it's been pretty quiet lately.
[03:05] <sebsebseb> godbyk: no I never contributed to the Ubuntu Manual, and that's something I am not intending to do either,  because I want to help with another distro that is on the verge of being made :)
[03:06] <godbyk> sebsebseb: fair enough. :-)
[03:06] <godbyk> which distro is that?
[03:06] <sebsebseb> plus anyway even before that, I wasn't planning on contributing to the manual either
[03:07] <sebsebseb> godbyk: pm if you really want to know,  I don't want to say in here, because from expereince of mentioning other distros in Ubuntu channels,  some people get rather silly about that,  or maybe that's only the core support channels, but still
[03:08] <godbyk> fair enough.  is it ubuntu/debian based? or based on something else?
[03:08] <sebsebseb> based on something else
[03:08] <godbyk> cool.
[03:09] <sebsebseb> I hope it will gain quite a lot of users in the future, like next year and half, or two years or so,  Ubuntu needs some good competition on the desktop :)
[03:10] <godbyk> Anything that improves the desktop experience is a good thing, in my book!
[03:10] <sebsebseb> godbyk: well Unity won't improve the actsual proper Desktop Expereince, when other distros can't just provide it!
[03:11] <godbyk> sebsebseb: What do you mean?
[03:11] <sebsebseb> and also when developers of other distros, won't just want to contribute code to it many of them,  because of the copyright assignmetns
[03:11] <sebsebseb> godbyk: I think Unity can improve the desktop expereince of Linux distros, once the issues with it are solved
[03:11] <godbyk> Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the copyright assignment stuff.
[03:11] <sebsebseb> if they don't get solved and other distros want to provide though, well they can fork
[03:12] <godbyk> I haven't used Unity at all yet.  Have you?  How's it coming along?
[03:12] <sebsebseb> also with CA upstream Gnome can't adopt Unity either
[03:12] <sebsebseb> yeah I did Ubuntu 10.10 desktop edition, and then installed Lubuntu and Xubuntu and Kubuntu (I think I did as well)
[03:12] <sebsebseb> and  installed Unity
[03:13] <godbyk> Doesn't the CA only come into play if you want to contribute code to Unity (e.g., a patch or such)?
[03:13] <sebsebseb> well after the Nivida driver,  so yeah I tried out on my desktop the 10.10 version, mainly with Lubuntu, sometimes Ubuntu, and yeah it was alright
[03:13] <sebsebseb> then I ran Fedora 13 and 14 for a bit
[03:13] <sebsebseb> then I tried out Ubuntu 11.04 alpha 1 for a bit
[03:13] <sebsebseb> removing Fedora yeah
[03:14] <godbyk> Unfortunately, I don't have time to play with the various distros anymore.
[03:14] <sebsebseb> then I put on PC Linux OS,  which I am still on for now, but  I don't  know, I mean Ubuntu 11.04 alpha 2 out soon, and I might  just run it in Virtuablox 4.0 if I  set it up properly
[03:15] <sebsebseb> and get Gnome Shell from the Gnome site,  their way, since this distro don't have any Gnome SHell previews in repos
[03:15] <godbyk> Have you tried GNOME Shell yet?  How do you like it?
[03:15] <sebsebseb> godbyk: ,but  whatever I run on this computer, untill the distro I want to use is more ready for me, well  is just tempory really
[03:15] <godbyk> (I used to run the latest alphas and whatnot, but since I have to develop software for work, I need to keep my machine somewhat stable.)
[03:16] <sebsebseb> yeah I did the Gnome Shell preview in  Mandriva 2010.1  so it was the 2.29.1 version or whatever, which is about a year old now
[03:16] <sebsebseb> other computer still has Mandriva with that as well
[03:16] <sebsebseb> it was nice, ran it for a while  nearly every day and yeah :) on this computer
[03:17] <sebsebseb> then there was an update I think actsauly to a slightly later one, but  I want to run the like proper later one, but need to set things up so I can do that
[03:17] <godbyk> cool.
[03:17] <sebsebseb> godbyk: the distro I am waiting for,  won't get Gnome 3 by default, not in the first version, but I guess for the second it will have
[03:17] <godbyk> I hope that Unity and GNOME Shell work out well.
[03:18] <godbyk> When is GNOME Shell supposed to be released?
[03:18] <sebsebseb> ,but yeah really I want to run Gnome 2 sometimes, KDE maybe sometimes, and Unity or Gnome Shell really, but need to set things up so I can do that
[03:18] <sebsebseb> Gnome 3 last time I looked at their release scheduled 3.0 will be early April and then 3.0.1 at the end of April
[03:19] <godbyk> Oh, wow. I didn't know they were so far along.
[03:19] <sebsebseb> what I am worried about is Canonical and Unity
[03:19] <godbyk> Oh, yeah?
[03:19] <sebsebseb> with Unity they are being like an upstream
[03:19] <sebsebseb> ,but
[03:19] <sebsebseb> with copyright assignments and such, they aren't being like a proper upstream
[03:19] <sebsebseb> an upstream is  meant to make the software, that then more than one distro can easilly use
[03:20] <sebsebseb> godbyk: ,but well I told you the  issues about Unity already
[03:20] <sebsebseb> also one or two guys or so tried to make Unity for Fedora
[03:20] <godbyk> I guess it'll be interesting to see how it all works out.
[03:20] <sebsebseb> ,but since they were using stuff that wasn't upsteram or whatever, they coudn't just do that
[03:20] <godbyk> Did they fork Unity, try to build the existing Unity for Fedora, or try to write a Unity from scratch?
[03:21] <sebsebseb> they tried to use the exixting unity as far as I  know, but becuse of how its made, certain things have to be done differnetly so that they wil work with Fedora and other distros for that matter
[03:22] <sebsebseb> godbyk: maybe they were trying to port the 10.10 version yeah probably, in a way its better for other distros to wait untill after Ubuntu 12.04 before more seriosuly trying to port Unity
[03:22] <sebsebseb> on the other hand
[03:22] <sebsebseb> if that is done well
[03:22] <sebsebseb> Unity will remain a Ubuntu only option in the mean time hmm
[03:23] <sebsebseb> godbyk: and Gnome Shell will lack some features Gnome 2 has when it first comes out,  like the weather feature, but it should have that later
[03:23] <godbyk> Ah, I see.
[03:23] <sebsebseb> from a technical point of view I worry about Unity, already explained why
[03:23] <sebsebseb> from a user point of view well
[03:23] <sebsebseb> yeah its sort of intersting, not really what I would want to use a lot personally though probably, but yeah
[03:24] <sebsebseb> godbyk: Linux distros have a great backend most of them really, you know :)
[03:24] <sebsebseb> ,but
[03:24] <sebsebseb> when it comes to interface, what makes people from Windows or Mac OS X, go wow? when they see a Linux user interface?
[03:25] <sebsebseb> Compiz?  the cube and wobbery windows and such,  uhmm yeah sure for some of them, but then it gets boring or whatever
[03:25] <godbyk> Agreed.
[03:25] <sebsebseb> ,but from a like proper using kind of view, what makes people think,  wow this is so great so better than the Windows or Mac OS X interface?  I mean like Windows and Mac OS X's look compared to Gnome 2 and KDE 4 and stuff like that?
[03:25] <sebsebseb> I can't think of anything
[03:26] <godbyk> I use Linux as my primary OS these days.
[03:26] <godbyk> I rarely have to use Windows.
[03:26] <godbyk> But when I do, there are some things I miss about the Linux desktop.
[03:26] <sebsebseb> there is a lot of choice of differnet user interfaces,  but out of everything I have tried if I am to be honest, there is nothing, that is like wow, this looks so much better  than Windows or Mac OS X
[03:26] <godbyk> I really miss having multiple workspaces, for instance.
[03:26] <godbyk> I don't know how people operate a computer without them now.  :)
[03:27] <sebsebseb> and really I guess the closesest we got to that kind of thing, wow this is great, this is useable, this is awesome for useage, closesest we got at the moment, is well the Gnome Shell previews,  and the Unity's
[03:27] <sebsebseb> I have mixed feelings when it comes to Unity
[03:27] <godbyk> I take your point, though.  Most of the interface elements are the same across Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X.
[03:27] <sebsebseb> yeah bingo
[03:27] <sebsebseb> except well I guess it's mainly Gnome Shell out of the two,  as in the two, as in Gnome Shell and Unity
[03:28] <sebsebseb> ,but its mainly Gnome Shell that is starting to do the something differnet that I am on about :)
[03:28] <godbyk> We could design a new desktop experience from scratch (built on Linux).
[03:28] <godbyk> But one problem with that is that a lot of people would be scared off due to the learning curve.
[03:29] <godbyk> They grew up learning with Windows or Mac OS X.
[03:29] <sebsebseb> I am not sure if I want the masses the main streame using any Desktop Linux distro anymore, because most  will just use for support if its needed, and never really understand what this kind of software is really about, software freedom and so on, and what  that is, and all that
[03:29] <godbyk> So if we deviate greatly from those standards, then we'll get a lot of push-back.
[03:29] <sebsebseb> in a way Unity isn't meant to exist, because Canonical were meant to help Gnome with Gnome Shell really
[03:29] <godbyk> We'd have to ensure that the new interface was demonstrably better than the standard WIMP interface.
[03:30] <sebsebseb> I mean they have had meetings with Gnome guys about Gnome Shell even  and so on
[03:30] <sebsebseb> on the other hand, well  they wanted to do differnet things, and now well there will be two choices, for  Linux distros, well if others do Unity, but already been through  how they can't just do that at the moment
[03:30] <sebsebseb> other distros
[03:30] <godbyk> Interestingly, Linux makes a great OS for devices that require a domain-specific interface.
[03:31] <godbyk> For example, your DVD player or digital video recorder.
[03:31] <sebsebseb> godbyk: something that personalley annoys me is the ignorance on sites such as omgubuntu.co.uk at times, where people think,  that Gnome Shell is copying from Unity, which really isn't the case, for example
[03:32] <sebsebseb> godbyk: also it seems that quite a few other distros want the Ubuntu Software Centre now, from stuff I been reading recently, and there's a distro callobration video, that I haven't seen properly yet
[03:32] <sebsebseb> ,but I think UI for Software Centre has copyright assignements or the whole program even, so hmm
[03:32] <godbyk> Yeah, the notion of 'Hey, x copied that feature from y,' has always bugged me.  Very often, the person complaining is just wrong.
[03:33] <sebsebseb> godbyk: something that annoys me is the in fighting that distro communites may have,  and how some people get way to biased towards their choosen distro,  and basicalely won't even recommend other distros to people
[03:34] <sebsebseb> I belive that choice is good,  and its good to tell someone about a few distros and give them distrowatch.com and let them choose their own distro :)
[03:34] <godbyk> It's a rather personal choice. You just have to figure out which distro works best for you.
[03:34] <sebsebseb> except many people don't do that
[03:34] <sebsebseb> they are told to use Ubuntu and well thats it really
[03:34] <sebsebseb> they remain as Ubuntu users for a very long time indeed, and maybe never even try another
[03:34] <sebsebseb> godbyk: and some people even think Linux = Ubuntu
[03:35] <sebsebseb> hmm maybe the Ubuntu Manual should briefly mention that other distros exist as well,  and mention distrowatch.com or something :D
[03:35] <godbyk> I think the manual explains briefly what a distribution is.
[03:35] <godbyk> I don't know that it does too much more than that.
[03:36] <godbyk> It also mentions that Ubuntu is derived from Debian.
[03:36] <sebsebseb> godbyk: so many things in Ubuntu that I don't like now
[03:36] <sebsebseb> mainly since 10.04
[03:36] <sebsebseb> I mean the Gnome 2 expereince
[03:36] <godbyk> Oh, yeah?
[03:36] <sebsebseb> the Gnome patching and removing of some features by default that should be there really, automatic shut down after a minute, shut down and log out in the system menu, that kind of thing
[03:36] <sebsebseb> ,but
[03:36] <sebsebseb> with Unity those patches quite a few of them, become sort of ok
[03:37] <godbyk> Right.
[03:37] <sebsebseb> since now its well Unity not the Gnome 2 interface anymore
[03:37] <sebsebseb> ,but yeah things started going bad with 9.04 really, the patching and all that, and why? to try and make things more user freindly for newbies
[03:38] <sebsebseb> then stuff like Ubuntu One and the Music Store that I woudn't personalley want really as well and so on.  the themes in 10.04 the new ones, that I still don't like that much really,  and so on,  well black one is better in 10.10 and in Unity
[03:38] <sebsebseb> for me the last properly good version of Ubuntu was 9.04, and then things started to really go down hill,  altough GDM 2 and Grub 2 for example in 9.10 that was upstream Gnome, not Ubuntu, didn't like those for example
[03:38] <sebsebseb> godbyk: however recently I put on a distro on my older brothers  lap top from 2005
[03:39] <sebsebseb> he isn't technical he just wants to use a computer really,  Firefox, Facebook and such you know, type something maybe, listenin to music I guess, see photos, that kind of thing
[03:39] <sebsebseb> godbyk: so guess what distro I went with?
[03:39] <sebsebseb> in the end, after thinking about them and so on
[03:39] <godbyk> I give up. :)
[03:40] <sebsebseb> godbyk: hmm hint it wasn't Ubuntu, but saying Ubuntu would have been a good guess
[03:40] <sebsebseb> at first I thought Mandriva or PC Linux OS, but then decided no to both of them
[03:40] <godbyk> I bet it was Windows! ;-)
[03:41] <sebsebseb> godbyk: no  and it's got XP on there as well, but not quite working properly, because yeah
[03:42] <sebsebseb> I thought Ubuntu, but then,  I remember how all this stuff in recent versions that I don't like
[03:42] <sebsebseb> and how even removing a lot of that, woudn't quite make Ubuntu be like before, I mean like 8.10 or something
[03:42] <sebsebseb> godbyk: I wanted user friendly, and supported for quite a long time, so what distro?
[03:43] <godbyk> Debian?
[03:43] <sebsebseb> and one that woudn't give updates of later versions of software that he didn't really need, so yeah PC Linu OS was out, even though it's rolling release so supported for a long time
[03:43] <sebsebseb> turns out I find this out more recently, that yes PC Linux OS is a rolling release, but its very much so about providing stable versions of software, so not the very latest this and that neassirely
[03:44] <godbyk> I don't think I've heard of PC Linux OS.
[03:44] <sebsebseb> godbyk: Linux Mint Debain  Edition came to mind, but I hadn't vm'd tried that one, so that was out
[03:44] <sebsebseb> I decided to try Linux Mint 10 based on Ubuntu 10.10
[03:45] <sebsebseb> so installed that on there, and well  yeah no Unity or OpenGL games and so on, because of a sucky SIS graphics card, so no Linux driver, but then later I put 9 on, but then remove it, nearly put 10 back on or whatever, and uhmm put 9 on again, and decide yep Linux Mint 9
[03:46] <sebsebseb> I thought yeah, well ok had issues on the other computer  when it used to run Ubuntu 10.04, like it refusing to let anyone log in all of a sudden, and me not knowing why, but Linux Mint 9 is based on Ubuntu 10.04 which is 10.04.1 now, so surely it will be more stable and all that?
[03:46] <sebsebseb> godbyk: Mint basically takes what is good from Ubuntu, and does nicer graphci and the codecs by default :)
[03:47] <sebsebseb> so yeah Linux Mint 9, and I feel like I made the right choice :)
[03:47] <sebsebseb> !ot
[03:47] <manualbot> #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, for all Ubuntu-related support questions. Please use #ubuntu-offtopic for other topics. Thanks!
[03:47] <sebsebseb> hmm I thought about doing that a while ago :D ^
[03:47] <sebsebseb> I wanted to see what message it had, at one stage, it had a message that I came up with :)
[03:48] <sebsebseb> godbyk: and we been off topic for a while, but well if this channel is like before, then yeah, people chat off topic in here every now and again
[03:49] <godbyk> It's not too big of a deal as long as we're not disrupting other, relevant conversations.
[03:50] <sebsebseb> godbyk: PCLOS is a nice distro,  no Gnome Shell in repo like I was  saying,  IRC community could be better, but well whatever, its not the distro I plan to do some proper community stuff for
[03:50] <sebsebseb> godbyk: anyway this Satuday is special
[03:51] <sebsebseb> in Ubuntuland
[03:51] <godbyk> You're working on a new distro? What distinguishes them from the existing distros?
[03:51] <sebsebseb> godbyk: no
[03:51] <sebsebseb> godbyk: I am just planning on doing some proper community stuff for it :)
[03:51] <sebsebseb> in a way already done some, but still early days
[03:51] <godbyk> Ah, 'kay.
[03:51] <sebsebseb> I want to help build up its future community more properly :)
[03:52] <sebsebseb> except of course, depending on how things go,  it might not get much more of a community than it currently has, hmm
[03:52] <sebsebseb> godbyk: Ubuntu has gone to hmm for me, the direction I am really wondering what's going to happen
[03:52] <sebsebseb> I have mixed feelings, I am not sure about things
[03:53] <sebsebseb> so yeah I can't just help loads of people with Ubuntu anymore from IRC,  like I did for about two years not that long ago
[03:53] <sebsebseb> for example
[03:53] <godbyk> Well, if you're using a different distribution, it makes sense to put your time and energy into supporting and improving it (instead of a competing distro).
[03:54] <sebsebseb> godbyk: I belive though that, the distro I want to more properly support, that things will become pretty good in the future for it, its just going to take time, maybe two years yet
[03:54] <sebsebseb> godbyk: well at the moment I am not using it
[03:54] <sebsebseb> since it doesn't even exist yet,  plus when it first exists, well it won't be that useable for  people like me it seems, but later on :)
[03:54] <sebsebseb> godbyk: sure we say comepting distros, distro compettion and all that, but
[03:54] <sebsebseb> I belive in distro callobration :)
[03:55] <godbyk> Well, 'competing' in a fairly loose sense. :)
[03:55] <sebsebseb> distros working together more, the developers and communities, not all this in fighting, my distro is better than yours, no mine is better than yours, etc etc
[03:55] <sebsebseb> and I mentioend something about that earlier well
[03:56] <sebsebseb> godbyk: hmm except if I give one link, it should be obvious what distro I am interested in
[03:56] <sebsebseb> and if I give another it woudn't be so obvious
[03:57] <sebsebseb> ,but yeah on the subject of distro's working together
[03:58] <sebsebseb> godbyk: I want to be someone in opensource/freesoftware someone more proper :)
[03:58] <sebsebseb> in Linuxland I mean
[03:58] <sebsebseb> been my major interest since  2004/3 so yeah :)
[03:58] <sebsebseb> in Linux distro land :)
[03:58] <sebsebseb> Desktop Linux land :)
[04:14] <sebsebseb> godbyk: Do you know about Ubuntu User Days? Starts not that long from now
[04:15] <godbyk> I don't know too much about it.
[04:18] <sebsebseb> godbyk: well I am not so sure about Ubuntu itself the distro, and it's direction
[04:18] <sebsebseb> ,but
[04:18] <sebsebseb> anymore, but
[04:19] <sebsebseb> some the community stuff  they do, is absoutly great still
[04:19] <sebsebseb> some of the
[04:19] <sebsebseb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
[04:19] <sebsebseb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
[04:19] <sebsebseb> godbyk: and similar to that, but after a new release,  Ubuntu Open Week
[04:21] <godbyk> Yeah, Ubuntu does do a lot of community-oriented stuff.  I like that.
[04:21] <sebsebseb> godbyk: i'll take part in that a bit later some of it and :)
[04:21] <sebsebseb> yeah, but it also has a massive user base
[04:21] <sebsebseb> so yeah
[04:23] <sebsebseb> godbyk: ,but quite a few of the other distros, well the distros are great, but the community is a bit hmm, and could be better
[04:24] <sebsebseb> godbyk: and hopefuly I can help to make a good community distro, for the alternative distro that I think has a chance at becoming  pretty good as a distro, but also as a community
[04:25] <sebsebseb> ideally I guess the more good distros with good communities, the better :)
[04:25] <sebsebseb> Choice :)
[04:25] <godbyk> Absolutely!
[04:25] <sebsebseb> make a good community for the distro, I want to support, above,  I put community distro, but yes it  will be that :) 100% community
[04:26] <sebsebseb> awesome no company to mess things up :)
[04:26] <sebsebseb> godbyk: I don't like the idea of this
[04:26] <sebsebseb> market share wise
[04:27] <sebsebseb> 1.  Windows with most users  2.  Mac OS X  3.  Ubuntu with most Desktop Linux users by a long way, and masses type amount
[04:27] <sebsebseb> 4. Linux Mint and maybe other distros based on Ubuntu 5.  BSD  6. other OS's
[04:28] <sebsebseb> if most Desktop Linux users by a long way,  only or mainly use Ubuntu, instead of or  as well as other distros, well that's not proper choice
[04:28] <sebsebseb> in a way its about as good as Windows having most users on the desktop
[04:28] <sebsebseb> godbyk: number 1 most used Desktop Linux the number 2 and so on, it doesn't really matter that much,  what matters is that we have good choices at the top :) and a few of them, choice :)
[04:29] <sebsebseb> So please Canonical with Unity and so on,  your now an upstream as well, so please play nicely as one, and help other distros use your stuff, if they want to,  Thank you :)
[04:30] <sebsebseb> godbyk: I think things will work out with Gnome 3 and Unity and distros working together more and all that,  it will just take time.
[04:32] <sebsebseb> godbyk: did you disappar on me?  anyway I think we are basically done chatting for now
[04:33] <sebsebseb> and uhmm sorry idlers in a way for the off topic, but I guess nothing else would have been going on here anyway otherwise
[04:34] <sebsebseb> and nisshh if you see this later or something, uhmm from one channel where as you know I was typing a lot and similar stuff, to here, hmm
[04:35] <sebsebseb> oh well
[05:02] <nisshh> sebsebseb, hehe
[05:03] <godbyk> nisshh: Finished cleaning the gutters already?
[05:04] <sebsebseb> godbyk: no maybe  he was missing you badly, and so needed to come back to say something to you :D
[05:04] <godbyk> sebsebseb: I suspect you might be correct. ;-)
[05:04] <sebsebseb> or to come back for you to say something to him, one or the other
[05:11] <nisshh> godbyk, yeah, ages ago :)
[05:12] <nisshh> godbyk, us aussies are used to manual labour in the heat, so we get it done fast :)
[05:12] <nisshh> sebsebseb, you wish :)
[05:12] <godbyk> nisshh: I see. So you were lying to me when you said four hours!
[05:13]  * godbyk thinks nisshh was just trying to escape.
[05:15] <nisshh> godbyk, well, it did take me an hour :)
[05:15] <nisshh> i would not lie :)
[05:15]  * godbyk is wondering is nisshh is perhaps a software developer.
[05:15] <godbyk> That'd explain the inflated estimate.
[05:15] <nisshh> godbyk, i swear, there is a cyclone coming down the coast, i had to clean out the gutters so crap didnt fly everywhere
[05:16] <nisshh> and yes, i am a software dev
[05:16] <godbyk> Sounds like fun.
[05:16] <godbyk> (I'm a dev, too.  It's okay.)
[05:18] <nisshh> hehe